Security to never fall away from the church? Here it is.

[Anddenex]

2 minutes ago, NightSG said:

Well, then tell us how it is with this gift to see so perfectly into the hearts of all men, you haven't brought them all back into the fold?

This statement assumes that if you can see into the heart of men, perfectly, then you will be able to bring them back into the fold. Christ saw everyone perfectly, and did he bring them all back into the fold? No. Seeing clearly doesn't negate the agency of another to continue in their ways, and until the individual humbles themselves, or is compelled to humility, they will continue in their ways. This truth is evident throughout scripture. Only until the individual humbles themselves do they change.

[Guest Godless]

33 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

So God has commanded us not to doubt (repeatedly), and He has also plainly stated that He gives no commandment save He shall provide a way to fulfill it, and yet we have no choice in the matter as to whether we doubt?

Makes sense.

Has he commanded you not to doubt, or has he commanded you not to give in to doubt (serious question, I don't know what's officially taught on this subject)? Did Nephi not have doubts when he was commanded to kill Laban? Do you think Abraham didn't have doubts when he was commanded to kill his son? I find it hard to believe that your church views it as sinful to have doubt. I would think the more important thing is the individual's response to doubt. Or to put it another way:

1 hour ago, LiterateParakeet said:

Doubt is not a choice. It's part of this life something we all have to deal with from ti.e to time and hopefully in the end we kept ourselves in the church. That's why our Leaders counsel us to read our scriptures and say our prayers daily to give us strength to overcome these doubts and trials when they come to us.

 

[Guest]

46 minutes ago, NightSG said:

Well, if you're my last couple of bishops, you put a light pencil line through their names on the list, rather than blacking them out completely with Sharpie like the ones who have specifically threatened or actually obtained criminal trespass warnings.

Because, you know, not respecting someone's specific request to leave them alone unless they threaten criminal charges is such a great way to show how much you care.

I'm not criticizing here, but I really am confused at this wording.  You seem to be saying "The light pencil is perferred."  The "blacking out completely is bad." But don't go visit someone who has said they don't want you there.  I'm not sure what you mean by this.

Obviously, if they say they don't want you there, I'd respect those wishes.  But how does that fit in with the light pencil vs the sharpie?  I don't understand.

[Anddenex]

9 minutes ago, zil said:

Every friendship on the planet was initiated by an external force (e.g. duty calls), not by the willful determination of one or both parties independent of all external forces.  The problem is, people have selected specific external forces as being unacceptable.  Several examples to demonstrate:

1. Parents have children in the same school participating in the same activity.  Parents are present for their children.  Parents strike up a conversation between themselves.  Repeat until friendship ensues.  Were it not for the fluke of school districts and children's ages / interests, this would never have happened.  But this external force is "approved".
2. Two people end up employed at the same company.  Maybe they're in the same department.  Maybe they end up having lunch at the same time.  Whatever.  Their employment triggered interaction which leads to friendship.
3. Two people hang at the same bar / gym / cafe / park / church / etc.  Repeated recognition leads to interaction leads to friendship.
4. People are stranded in the airport while their flight is delayed, or seated next to each other on a long flight, or similar forced encounter.  Sometimes, friendships are made.
5. A delivery person has the same route for years and years.  Engages with some of the people on that route.  Friendships ensue.
6. A person moves into a new house.  They interact with their new neighbors.  Some friendships ensue.
7. A person is assigned as a VTer or HTer.  They interact with new people.  Sometimes, if people's density doesn't prevent it, friendships ensue.

It's very popular in the church to dislike the external force of VT and HT assignments.  I say some people are dense.

@zil - you understand so perfectly.

[Maureen]

9 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Why would one trust the say-so of the apostate over the words of Christ?

You can call it rationalization all you want but that doesn't make it real.

Whether they're apostates or not; if they are the ones that left, they would know why. You can believe them or not, it's your choice.

M.

[NightSG]

Just now, Carborendum said:

I'm not criticizing here, but I really am confused at this wording.  You seem to be saying "The light pencil is perferred."  The "blacking out completely is bad." But don't go visit someone who has said they don't want you there.  I'm not sure what you mean by this.

Obviously, if they say they don't want you there, I'd respect those wishes.  But how does that fit in with the light pencil vs the sharpie?  I don't understand.

The ones that were only penciled out would still get put on someone else's to-do list, until they got fed up enough to either formally resign or involve law enforcement.

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, NightSG said:

The ones that were only penciled out would still get put on someone else's to-do list, until they got fed up enough to either formally resign or involve law enforcement.

Ok.  That's what I got.  But I thought you were saying that was a bad thing.  Yet, that is what you are suggesting?  I'm still confused.

Let me try to itemize it out.  Tell me if I got your points.

I had asked:

Quote

How do you get to know them if they have said don't visit them?

I asked this as a sincere question.  If you're inactive and have not resigned, then my assumption is that you still have a glimmer of hope to come back one day.  But it will take someone who is willing to get to know you and develop that relationship.  You responded:

Quote

Well, if you're my last couple of bishops, you put a light pencil line through their names on the list, rather than blacking them out completely with Sharpie like the ones who have specifically threatened or actually obtained criminal trespass warnings.

Because, you know, not respecting someone's specific request to leave them alone unless they threaten criminal charges is such a great way to show how much you care.

So, what you seem to be saying is that the way to get to develop a relationship with such a person is to:

1) Don't cross out with a sharpie.  Just use a light line through it.  -- this is what you were advocating?
2) The light line means that someone would still keep visiting.  This is what you do NOT advocate.

Did I get that wrong?  This seems to be contradictory.  Do you see why I'm confused?

[The Folk Prophet]

14 minutes ago, Godless said:

Has he commanded you not to doubt, or has he commanded you not to give in to doubt (serious question, I don't know what's officially taught on this subject)?

The exact quote from Jesus repeated again and again is "doubt not". I expect it could be interpreted either way. Not giving into doubts leads me to the same conclusion though. Choice. That being said, I don't think Jesus meant anything other than what he said. "Doubt not" means what it means.

15 minutes ago, Godless said:

Did Nephi not have doubts when he was commanded to kill Laban? Do you think Abraham didn't have doubts when he was commanded to kill his son? I find it hard to believe that your church views it as sinful to have doubt. I would think the more important thing is the individual's response to doubt.

Nephi and Abraham were not perfect. But, once again, if the response is the key, it's still a choice. As to sin -- I expect that depends on how loosely one defines sin. My view is that yes, imperfection in any regard, including doubt, is at some level a sin that requires repentance.

[Guest MormonGator]

13 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

 Do you see why I'm confused?

Well yes, but in fairness you get confused trying to count to 10 sometimes. 

(you know I'm playing! Nothing but love!) 

Edited May 10, 2017 by MormonGator

[The Folk Prophet]

17 minutes ago, Maureen said:

Whether they're apostates or not; if they are the ones that left, they would know why.

A. Nonsense. Even if they were being fully honest that doesn't mean they have a perfect understanding of themselves. No one does. Believing that man does have a perfect understanding of even himself pretty much describes the idea of putting faith in the arm of flesh to me.

18 minutes ago, Maureen said:

You can believe them or not, it's your choice.

B. I choose not.

Christ taught: (Matt 7)

24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

That pretty much sums it up for me. He that hears Christ and does what He said is built upon a rock whose house won't fall. If someone tells me they heard and did the sayings of Christ but fell anyway then either they are wrong or Christ is a liar. I choose to believe that Christ is not a liar.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Well yes, but in fairness you get confused trying to count to 10. 

That's 100, thank you very much.

[Guest MormonGator]

3 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

That's 100, thank you very much.

hahahahahahahahaha

[NightSG]

22 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

2) The light line means that someone would still keep visiting.  This is what you do NOT advocate.

This.  If local leadership refuses to honor a simple "please stop sending people over" request, that is only going to make the person less likely to want to return.  It's a small town; you can't avoid running into people from time to time, so there are opportunities to connect, but there's also a strong "you're not on my HT/VT list" mentality, that basically means the majority of chance encounters will go to waste.

Edited May 10, 2017 by NightSG

[Guest]

Duty preceeds charity in many instances.  I'd say that in most of my life this is what I've encountered.  My wife was the only exception.  I fell in love with her and I then felt a duty to serve her all the days of my life.

For everyone else...

1. In the military, you're assigned a base, living quarters, and a post/job.  You do it with others who have been assigned their own.  By working together you develop a relationship.  You learn to love one another.
2. In school, you're assigned a classroom with fellow students and a teacher.  Through work, learning, and play, you develop the relationships.  You learn to love one another.
3. In a job, you can choose to apply for a job.  But rarely do you get to choose those with whom you work.  And you never choose the clients or their representatives.  You HAVE to work with people you don't like.  But if you're professional and work together to get the job done, a mutual respect develops.  That respect eventually turns into love.
4. My children were born.  Yes, I felt some kinship.  I felt like they were little angels.  But I felt a sense of duty to care for them before I felt the love of a parent.  As I cared for them, as I taught them right from wrong, as I taught them to work, to study and learn, to pray, to love others, I developed the love through being a father.  This may sound un-natural to some (especially to that brief thread on kin-selection) but it is how I developed it.  I'm awed that others speak of the "instant love" that parents have for their babies.  I just didn't.  I felt like they were precious.  I saw their innocence.  But what I'd call "love" was quite different.
5. Ward members.  I've moved enough that I can't say that I've gotten to know everyone in every ward I've lived in.  In fact, I was lucky if I got to know anyone at all.  But those I did know were the ones I was forced to associate with.  It's not that I didn't like them.  It was that my life was busy.  Socializing is something that is low on my priority list--not out of disinterest or animosity, but necessity.
6. The movie "Remember the Titans" was a perfect example of how assignments can allow people to learn to respect and even love one another.

Edited May 10, 2017 by Guest

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, NightSG said:

This.  If local leadership refuses to honor a simple "please stop sending people over" request, that is only going to make the person less likely to want to return.  It's a small town; you can't avoid running into people from time to time, but there's also a strong "you're not on my HT/VT list" mentality, that basically means the majority of chance encounters will go to waste.

Ok, so why did you say that you're supposed to place a light line through the name instead of the sharpie?

Quote

Well, if you're my last couple of bishops, you put a light pencil line through their names on the list, rather than blacking them out completely with Sharpie like the ones who have specifically threatened or actually obtained criminal trespass warnings.

 

Edited May 10, 2017 by Guest

[Anddenex]

7 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Duty preceeds charity in many instances.  I'd say that in most of my life this is what I've encountered.  My wife was the only exception.  I fell in love with her and I then felt a duty to serve her all the days of my life.

For everyone else...

1. In the military, you're assigned a base, living quarters, and a post/job.  You do it with others who have been assigned their own.  By working together you develop a relationship.  You learn to love one another.
2. In school, you're assigned a classroom with fellow students and a teacher.  Through work, learning, and play, you develop the relationships.  You learn to love one another.
3. In a job, you can choose to apply for a job.  But rarely do you get to choose those with whom you work.  And you never choose the clients or their representatives.  You HAVE to work with people you don't like.  But if you're professional and work together to get the job done, a mutual respect develops.  That respect eventually turns into love.
4. My children were born.  Yes, I felt some kinship.  I felt like they were little angels.  But I felt a sense of duty to care for them before I felt the love of a parent.  As I cared for them, as I taught them right from wrong, as I taught them to work, to study and learn, to pray, to love others, I developed the love through being a father.  This may sound un-natural to some (especially to that brief thread on kin-selection) but it is how I developed it.  I'm awed that others speak of the "instant love" that parents have for their babies.  I just didn't.  I felt like they were precious.  I saw their innocence.  But what I'd call "love" was quite different.
5. Ward members.  I've moved enough that I can't say that I've gotten to know everyone in every ward I've lived in.  In fact, I was lucky if I got to know anyone at all.  But those I did know were the ones I was forced to associate with.  It's not that I didn't like them.  It was that my life was busy.  Socializing is something that is low on my priority list--not out of disinterest or animosity, but necessity.

 

 

Quote

 

@zil, "Every friendship on the planet was initiated by an external force (e.g. duty calls), not by the willful determination of one or both parties independent of all external forces.  The problem is, people have selected specific external forces as being unacceptable.  Several examples to demonstrate:

1. Parents have children in the same school participating in the same activity.  Parents are present for their children.  Parents strike up a conversation between themselves.  Repeat until friendship ensues.  Were it not for the fluke of school districts and children's ages / interests, this would never have happened.  But this external force is "approved".
2. Two people end up employed at the same company.  Maybe they're in the same department.  Maybe they end up having lunch at the same time.  Whatever.  Their employment triggered interaction which leads to friendship.
3. Two people hang at the same bar / gym / cafe / park / church / etc.  Repeated recognition leads to interaction leads to friendship.
4. People are stranded in the airport while their flight is delayed, or seated next to each other on a long flight, or similar forced encounter.  Sometimes, friendships are made.
5. A delivery person has the same route for years and years.  Engages with some of the people on that route.  Friendships ensue.
6. A person moves into a new house.  They interact with their new neighbors.  Some friendships ensue.
7. A person is assigned as a VTer or HTer.  They interact with new people.  Sometimes, if people's density doesn't prevent it, friendships ensue.

It's very popular in the church to dislike the external force of VT and HT assignments.  I say some people are dense."

 

In the mouth of two or three witnesses every word is established. These are simple truths regarding "duty" and its connection with "relationships". Duty does not dictate a lack of interest to become friends, it actually often results in friendships when both parties are willing to become friends. An amazing and simple truth.

[Vort]

14 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Ok, so why did you say that you're supposed to place a light line through the name instead of the sharpie?

Pretty sure he was being sarcastic, saying in effect, "We respect their requests by not honoring those wishes, or by honoring them in a half-hearted way, penciling through their names while still intending on violating their request by visiting them at some point in the future."

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, Vort said:

Pretty sure he was being sarcastic, saying in effect, "We respect their requests by not honoring those wishes, or by honoring them in a half-hearted way, penciling through their names while still intending on violating their request by visiting them at some point in the future."

OK.  I can't find the "DOH-OH" emoticon.  I was really asking a sincere question, so to get such a sarcastic response was so outside my mindset that I couldn't make heads or tails of it.  I guess that makes sense now.  

But he wasn't really answering the question at all.  That was just a "stay away" which doesn't allow anyone to develop any relationship at all which is what I was asking for.

Edited May 10, 2017 by Guest

[NightSG]

21 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

 That was just a "stay away" which doesn't allow anyone to develop any relationship at all which is what I was asking for.

Not really; I interact with dozens of people every day.  Two that I see by chance on a reasonably regular basis happen to be members, but the "not on my list" mentality means that such interactions are rarely if ever taken advantage of properly by most of the members.  (They're both active, so I'm not passing up any opportunities there.)

[Rob Osborn]

2 hours ago, NightSG said:

Well, then tell us how it is with this gift to see so perfectly into the hearts of all men, you haven't brought them all back into the fold?

Hum...wonder why God let Lucifer forever fall away?

[Guest]

47 minutes ago, NightSG said:

Not really; I interact with dozens of people every day.  Two that I see by chance on a reasonably regular basis happen to be members, but the "not on my list" mentality means that such interactions are rarely if ever taken advantage of properly by most of the members.  (They're both active, so I'm not passing up any opportunities there.)

Maybe that works in your case.  But in most of the world, if we don't deliberately go visit someone, we never see them.  I can honestly say that I've bumped into someone I knew about three times in my whole life by just doing my daily activities.  The world is simply too full of people.

Given that, I don't suppose you actually have any ideas that would be useful to anyone else, do you?

Edited May 10, 2017 by Guest

[NightSG]

13 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Maybe that works in your case.  But in most of the world, if we don't deliberately go visit someone, we never see them.  I can honestly say that I've bumped into someone I knew about three times in my whole life by just doing my daily activities.  The world is simply too full of people.

Given that, I don't suppose you actually have any ideas that would be useful to anyone else, do you?

Connect with the world around you, maybe.  It's pretty rare that I go to a grocery store without seeing at least one person I know by name.  Heck, even when I lived in Dallas I'd run into someone unexpectedly a few times a year.  Often in really strange circumstances, like an old high school friend's little brother delivering my pizza, or another friend whose mother turned out to be my ex wife's next boss after the divorce.  (Apparently, when her mom found out she knew me, her comment was "Six years? He must be a very patient man.")

[SilentOne]

21 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Maybe that works in your case.  But in most of the world, if we don't deliberately go visit someone, we never see them.  I can honestly say that I've bumped into someone I knew about three times in my whole life by just doing my daily activities.  The world is simply too full of people.

It's probably more like a couple times a year for me.

[Guest]

13 minutes ago, NightSG said:

Connect with the world around you, maybe.  It's pretty rare that I go to a grocery store without seeing at least one person I know by name.  Heck, even when I lived in Dallas I'd run into someone unexpectedly a few times a year.  Often in really strange circumstances, like an old high school friend's little brother delivering my pizza, or another friend whose mother turned out to be my ex wife's next boss after the divorce.  (Apparently, when her mom found out she knew me, her comment was "Six years? He must be a very patient man.")

It's not that I'm not out and about.  And it's not that I'm not aware of the people around me.  And it isn't that I'm not engaging people.  I'll talk to complete strangers all the time.  But honestly, I have rarely ever come across anyone I knew just by happenstance.  It just isn't a reality for me.  I don't know how it happens to you.

But apparently, I'm just supposed to be concerned about the salvation of my fellow men while having all the tools available to me locked up.  I wonder if it is like asking cops to do their jobs without guns or cuffs, and blaming them for not being able to do their jobs by just talking to the criminals.

Edited May 10, 2017 by Guest

[NightSG]

23 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

But apparently, I'm just supposed to be concerned about the salvation of my fellow men while having all the tools available to me locked up.

I've yet to see anyone use even a fraction of the available tools.