Security to never fall away from the church? Here it is.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, NightSG said:

I've yet to see anyone use even a fraction of the available tools.

Then tell me of more of them other than "just bump into people."  The fact is that I'm simply not aware of many tools.  If you are holding onto some secret methods, I'd love to hear them.

[priesthoodpower]

5 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

Doubt comes because of a lack of faith. Lack of faith comes through disobedience. As we obey the commandments, follow and completely support the prophets and devote our energies to serving our neighbors the door of doubt never opens.

Im sorry Rob but that is your own opinion and like many have mentioned earlier...its more complicated than that.

There is also a loophole in your observations. I have two younger brothers and a Father who love the church with all the fibers in their beings, they did not leave the church, they proudly call themselves mormons but they are not active in church. My Father, who is single, is a womanizer. My brother is a meth addict the other one is a violent person that just completed a 5 yr prison term. All 3 of them have "NO DOUBT" that the LDS church is the one and only true church on earth, their only problem is that they have alternative lifestyles. Their disobedience has not caused a lack of faith or created doubt or caused them to leave the church, they are simply exercising their free agency.

Edited May 11, 2017 by priesthoodpower

[The Folk Prophet]

22 minutes ago, priesthoodpower said:

Im sorry Rob but that is your own opinion and like many have mentioned earlier...its more complicated than that.

There is also a loophole in your observations. I have two younger brothers and a Father who love the church with all the fibers in their beings, they did not leave the church, they proudly call themselves mormons but they are not active in church. My Father, who is single, is a womanizer. My brother is a meth addict the other one is a violent person that just completed a 5 yr prison term. All 3 of them have "NO DOUBT" that the LDS church is the one and only true church on earth, their only problem is that they have alternative lifestyles. Their disobedience has not caused a lack of faith or created doubt or caused them to leave the church, they are simply exercising their free agency.

The logic doesn't follow. @Rob Osborn says obedience, etc. keeps doubt at bay. You contradict that by saying disobedience didn't cause doubt. Regardless of my skepticism of that, it's not saying the same thing. Like saying an apple a day keeps the doctor away is proved wrong by someone who's never eaten an apple and hasn't needed to go to the doctor. Irrelevant to the saying.

[estradling75]

1 hour ago, priesthoodpower said:

Im sorry Rob but that is your own opinion and like many have mentioned earlier...its more complicated than that.

There is also a loophole in your observations. I have two younger brothers and a Father who love the church with all the fibers in their beings, they did not leave the church, they proudly call themselves mormons but they are not active in church. My Father, who is single, is a womanizer. My brother is a meth addict the other one is a violent person that just completed a 5 yr prison term. All 3 of them have "NO DOUBT" that the LDS church is the one and only true church on earth, their only problem is that they have alternative lifestyles. Their disobedience has not caused a lack of faith or created doubt or caused them to leave the church, they are simply exercising their free agency.

Given that faith is action...  I would have to say while your family might have strong belief they have no faith.  If they had faith they would be acting on their beliefs(or ad least trying to) rather then ignoring them

[Rob Osborn]

4 hours ago, priesthoodpower said:

Im sorry Rob but that is your own opinion and like many have mentioned earlier...its more complicated than that.

There is also a loophole in your observations. I have two younger brothers and a Father who love the church with all the fibers in their beings, they did not leave the church, they proudly call themselves mormons but they are not active in church. My Father, who is single, is a womanizer. My brother is a meth addict the other one is a violent person that just completed a 5 yr prison term. All 3 of them have "NO DOUBT" that the LDS church is the one and only true church on earth, their only problem is that they have alternative lifestyles. Their disobedience has not caused a lack of faith or created doubt or caused them to leave the church, they are simply exercising their free agency.

I totally agree. I have family in the same position.

I would say however, one falls away either with or without resentment. Inactivity is "falling away" even if one still believes the church is true.

[priesthoodpower]

2 hours ago, estradling75 said:

Given that faith is action...  I would have to say while your family might have strong belief they have no faith.  If they had faith they would be acting on their beliefs(or ad least trying to) rather then ignoring them

I guess you have a point in that "faith without works is dead". However if you put a gun to either of my family members head they would die testifiying that Jesus is the Christ, JS restored the Gospel. They still have a testimony and qualify under Luke 17:06  "If you have faith as small as a mustard seed" but the point I was making wasnt about their level of faith or inactivity but simply that they did not leave the church.

2 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

I totally agree. I have family in the same position.

I would say however, one falls away either with or without resentment. Inactivity is "falling away" even if one still believes the church is true.

Yup, They have fallen away. Now my wife on the other hand has stated that she no longer believes in the LDS Prophets or the Church and decided to "leave" the church 6 yrs ago. She did not officially make an effort to remove her name from the church records which leads me to believe that the same speck of doubt that caused her disbelief could make her question if leaving the church was the right thing to do in the first place. Maybe I should say it like this...Satan found a way to help her leave, The Lord can find a way to help her return.

[askandanswer]

Can you fall away from the church in a gravity-free environment?

[askandanswer]

20 hours ago, MormonGator said:

I totally agree, and it's on both sides. The "fallen away" LDS wants to tell all active members why they are mindless sheep and the active LDS wants to save the souls of those who have fallen away. Do you really think you'll get an honest and open dialogue between the two? Really? 

I suspect that honest and open dialogue is a key component of most re-activations.

[The Folk Prophet]

8 hours ago, priesthoodpower said:

I guess you have a point in that "faith without works is dead". However if you put a gun to either of my family members head they would die testifiying that Jesus is the Christ, JS restored the Gospel. They still have a testimony and qualify under Luke 17:06  "If you have faith as small as a mustard seed" but the point I was making wasnt about their level of faith or inactivity but simply that they did not leave the church.

Yup, They have fallen away. Now my wife on the other hand has stated that she no longer believes in the LDS Prophets or the Church and decided to "leave" the church 6 yrs ago. She did not officially make an effort to remove her name from the church records which leads me to believe that the same speck of doubt that caused her disbelief could make her question if leaving the church was the right thing to do in the first place. Maybe I should say it like this...Satan found a way to help her leave, The Lord can find a way to help her return.

@priesthoodpower you seem to be confusing testimony and faith. They are not the same thing AT ALL. A testimony is, literally, the testifying of something that one has witnessed. It has nothing to do with faith. Take Laman and Lemuel. They could testify that an angel had appeared to them. They could testify that they were shocked by the power of God. They had testimonies. They did not have faith. This is another point behind the idea that faith is NOT belief.

Edited May 11, 2017 by The Folk Prophet

[estradling75]

8 hours ago, priesthoodpower said:

I guess you have a point in that "faith without works is dead". However if you put a gun to either of my family members head they would die testifiying that Jesus is the Christ, JS restored the Gospel. They still have a testimony and qualify under Luke 17:06  "If you have faith as small as a mustard seed" but the point I was making wasnt about their level of faith or inactivity but simply that they did not leave the church.

The only thing not leaving the church means is if the day comes that they do repent they have one less hoop to jump through on the road to repentance. 

Now lets discuss what Satan knows...  He knows that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.  He knows Joseph Smith is a prophet of God.  He knows the church is true... all the things your other family members know.  Yet for all of them the knowledge, profits them not.  The only real difference is the hope that they might one day repent is still offered for your family members

[eddified]

On 5/10/2017 at 11:26 AM, LiterateParakeet said:

Doubt is not something you chose like which outfit to put on in the morning. It just happens. It's part of living with a veil between us and Father.  

...

Doubt is not a choice. It's part of this life something we all have to deal with from ti.e to time and hopefully in the end we kept ourselves in the church. That's why our Leaders counsel us to read our scriptures and say our prayers daily to give us strength to overcome these doubts and trials when they come to us.

Aren't we commanded to believe?

1 John 3:23: "23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment."

Mormon 9:27 "O then despise not, and wonder not, but hearken unto the words of the Lord, and ask the Father in the name of Jesus for what things soever ye shall stand in need. Doubt not, but be believing, and begin as in times of old, and come unto the Lord with all your heart, and work out your own salvation with fear and trembling before him."

I could search for more examples, but I deem it unnecessary... It seems to me that God is telling us through the scriptures that belief (the opposite of doubt) is a choice. Otherwise, why would we be commanded to do it!?

Your examples seem to indicate that doubt happens when trials happen. Job had many trials, but did not doubt. Indeed, I believe that one of the very reasons we have the story of Job preserved for us is to teach us that belief is not dependent on what happens to us -- it is a choice!

This is not to minimize those with doubts: I do not think belief is easy. Or simple. But, I'd like to empower others by helping them realize that they are not subject to the winds of doubt - they can overcome them. It is possible!

[The Folk Prophet]

1 hour ago, eddified said:

This is not to minimize those with doubts: I do not think belief is easy. Or simple. 

Minimize is a relative word. What you're saying is that some people (probably all people) struggle with things that are difficult and complicated. Yep. That does "minimize" them (us) because we are human, mortal, and weak. Having a problem with feeling minimized because of a struggle is problematic to me. The beginning of wisdom is the realization that we are human, mortal, and weak. People are empowered when they give themselves up and turn to God.

Note: not debating anything you said. Just responding with thoughts.

[eddified]

11 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

The beginning of wisdom is the realization that we are human, mortal, and weak. People are empowered when they give themselves up and turn to God.

 I like that you called out that we are empowered through Jesus Christ's sacrifice. 

Edited May 11, 2017 by eddified

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

3 hours ago, eddified said:

Aren't we commanded to believe?

1 John 3:23: "23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment."

Mormon 9:27 "O then despise not, and wonder not, but hearken unto the words of the Lord, and ask the Father in the name of Jesus for what things soever ye shall stand in need. Doubt not, but be believing, and begin as in times of old, and come unto the Lord with all your heart, and work out your own salvation with fear and trembling before him."

I could search for more examples, but I deem it unnecessary... It seems to me that God is telling us through the scriptures that belief (the opposite of doubt) is a choice. Otherwise, why would we be commanded to do it!?

Your examples seem to indicate that doubt happens when trials happen. Job had many trials, but did not doubt. Indeed, I believe that one of the very reasons we have the story of Job preserved for us is to teach us that belief is not dependent on what happens to us -- it is a choice!

This is not to minimize those with doubts: I do not think belief is easy. Or simple. But, I'd like to empower others by helping them realize that they are not subject to the winds of doubt - they can overcome them. It is possible!

I don't know what I can say to you that I have not already said.  I read those verses as encouragement from a loving Father who understands doubt.  To tell you the truth, I think this attitude you and others have actually leads more people out of the church, because when they have doubts they are afraid to tell anyone.  That is so sad and avoidable. 

About Job, have you actually read the book of Job?  Seriously, I love Job.  These  are my favorite lines from chapter 3.  He was hurting and he was REAL about it.  I love him for it.  Then his friends lectured him...sounds familiar, doesn't it?

2 And Job spake, and said,

3 Let the day perish wherein I was born, and the night in which it was said, There is a man child conceived.

11 Why died I not from the womb? why did I not give up the ghost when I came out of the belly?

20 Wherefore is light given to him that is in misery, and life unto the bitter in soul;

21 Which long for death, but it cometh not; and dig for it more than for hid treasures;

22 Which rejoice exceedingly, and are glad, when they can find the grave?

23 Why is light given to a man whose way is hid, and whom God hath hedged in?

24 For my sighing cometh before I eat, and my roarings are poured out like the waters.

25 For the thing which I greatly feared is come upon me, and that which I was afraid of is come unto me.

26 I was not in safety, neither had I rest, neither was I quiet; yet trouble came.

 

[Anddenex]

4 hours ago, LiterateParakeet said:

I don't know what I can say to you that I have not already said.  I read those verses as encouragement from a loving Father who understands doubt.  To tell you the truth, I think this attitude you and others have actually leads more people out of the church, because when they have doubts they are afraid to tell anyone.  That is so sad and avoidable.

Those who have expressed that doubt is a choice also feel the same way, "I don't know what I can say to you that I have not already said"; however, doubt is as much as a choice as love and hate are choices, not something out of our control. To be enticed by doubt is not a choice, as to be enticed by hate is not a choice. Doubt is as much a choice as having faith is a choice. When we choose to entertain our doubt (which is what we have been commanded by the Lord not to do), yes this is a choice and often leads to further doubt. This is why President Uchtdorf said, "Doubt your doubts before you doubt your faith," which is another way of saying (adds a second witness to), "Doubt not, but be believing." Fortunately, the two key words within the third sentence are "I think" as this an opinion, not factual.

President Benson had this to offer, "Every principle of truth, properly applied, will free man from doubts, fears, suspicions, prejudices, and those qualities which make for misunderstanding, pride, lust, and selfishness." (The Red Carpet p. 261)

Elder Kevin W. Parson, "However, “it must needs be, that there is an opposition in all things. … The Lord God gave unto man that he should act for himself. Wherefore, man could not act for himself save it should be that he was enticed by the one or the other” (2 Nephi 2:11, 16). And so it is with faith. It can be enticing to choose doubt and disbelief over faith. (emphasis added)

Elder Richard C Edgely, "Choose faith over doubt, choose faith over fear, choose faith over the unknown and the unseen, and choose faith over pessimism." (emphasis added)

Elder L. Whitney Clayton, "We likewise must give place for the hope that we will find spiritual light by embracing belief rather than choosing to doubt. Our actions are the evidence of our belief and become the substance of our faith. We are choosing to believe when we pray and when we read the scriptures. We are choosing to believe when we fast, when we keep the Sabbath day holy, and when we worship in the temple. We are choosing to believe when we are baptized and when we partake of the sacrament. We are choosing to believe when we repent and seek divine forgiveness and healing love." (emphasis added)

Elder Jeffrey R. Holland, "Observation number one regarding this account is that when facing the challenge of faith, the father asserts his strength first and only then acknowledges his limitation. His initial declaration is affirmative and without hesitation: “Lord, I believe.” I would say to all who wish for more faith, remember this man! In moments of fear or doubt or troubling times, hold the ground you have already won, even if that ground is limited. In the growth we all have to experience in mortality, the spiritual equivalent of this boy’s affliction or this parent’s desperation is going to come to all of us. When those moments come and issues surface, the resolution of which is not immediately forthcoming, hold fast to what you already know and stand strong until additional knowledge comes." (emphasis added -- and which is choice to hold ground or to hold fast)

Elder Neil L. Anderson, "My dear friends, your faith did not begin at birth, and it will not end at death. Faith is a choice. Strengthen your faith, and live to be deserving of the Savior’s approving words: “Great is thy faith.” As you do, I promise you that your faith, through the grace of Jesus Christ, will one day allow you to stand with those you love, clean and pure in the presence of God, in the name of Jesus Christ, amen." (emphasis added)

President Thomas S. Monson, "Remember, faith and doubt cannot exist in the mind at the same time, for one will dispel the other. Cast out doubt. Cultivate faith. Strive always to retain that childlike faith which can move mountains and bring heaven closer to heart and home." (emphasis added)

This is the attitude @eddified and others are sharing, which somehow you are saying leads more people to leave the Church? No, never. It is this attitude that will keep people in the Church because they know true principles, which when properly applied, free us from doubts, fears, and all other things that remove us from Christ and his love.

4 hours ago, LiterateParakeet said:

About Job, have you actually read the book of Job?  Seriously, I love Job.  These  are my favorite lines from chapter 3.  He was hurting and he was REAL about it.  I love him for it.  Then his friends lectured him...sounds familiar, doesn't it?

I am sure @eddified (althought eddified can speak for himself) has read the book of Job, as others who carry the same attitude have read Job. Yes, the book of Job is a very sad and yet enlightening story. In everything he endured: friendships forsaking him, his own wife telling him to curse God and die, and the loss of almost everything, and we read the following, "In all this did not Job sin with his lips."

I too love Job, and find his open honesty remarkable and within his open honesty the Lord declares Job was faithful. Job's friend lecturing him doesn't sound familiar, not at all. No one here is condemning a person for going through trials and saying the reason why he is going through trials is because he has sinned and the Lord has forsaken him. Look at the question, in the next chapter a friend proposes to Job, "Remember, I pray thee, who ever perished, being innocent? or where were the righteous cut off?" In layman terms, "Job, the reason why you are going through this is because you are NOT innocent, you have been cut off from the Lord, and when has the Lord ever cut off the righteous." No, no one commenting in this thread shares this attitude.

Job opens honesty is a great lesson for us all to recognize that we will feel sorrow, we may even feel greatly hurt, but let us be like Job who will not sin with our lips and curse God because we are in trial and tribulation. We may feel great sorrow, we may feel great pain, which isn't sin, and during this great trial and great pain we can continue like Job moving forward in faith, such that even the Lord gave witness of Job's righteousness. And here is an irony, although Job remained faithful through his pain and suffering, when his eyes were able to see the Lord he says this, "I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee. Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes." This concept I have found to be intriguing that even when the Lord declares the righteousness of his servants and then they have the privilege of seeing him, they desire to exercise their faith unto repentance.

Edited May 12, 2017 by Anddenex

[eddified]

Yes I've read Job,  though it has been a few long years.  

Edited May 12, 2017 by eddified
erased something Anddenex already said.

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

10 hours ago, Anddenex said:

When we choose to entertain our doubt (which is what we have been commanded by the Lord not to do), yes this is a choice and often leads to further doubt. This is why President Uchtdorf said, "Doubt your doubts before you doubt your faith," which is another way of saying (adds a second witness to), "Doubt not, but be believing."

Fortunately, the two key words within the third sentence are "I think" as this an opinion, not factual....

Anddenex, first of all, I used the words "I think" precisely to express it is my opinion. Your claim that it is not factual is your opinion, which maybe based on a MISunderstanding of what I am trying to say.  Since we both quoted the same talk by Elder Uchtodorf, did you see my post on that?  And I totally agree with the quote from Elder Holland, so I have to wonder if we are fundamentally misunderstanding one another's position.  

I will try to reiterate what my position, and try to clear up any misconception about what i think you think I'm saying.  

First of all - what I am NOT saying.  I'm not suggesting that you set up a tent in a place of doubt and start building a house.  I'm not suggesting that you seek it.  I'm not saying it is something people will feel all the time.   

Let's take an example.  Since a lot of people these days are struggling with learning new things about church history, let's suppose that happens to "Joe".  Joe is told about polyandry for example and it upsets him.  

I'm not suggesting that he just live with that feeling.  I'm not saying that he should gather some friends and talk about how he just learned this awful thing and what other awful things could there be out there?  I'm not suggesting he check google to learn more about church history.

What I am saying is that moments of doubt like this come sometimes as a result of living in a mortal world.  If Joe were my friend, I would ask if he is reading The Book of Mormon and if not suggest that he prayerfully read it again, and look at the essays the church has on LDS.org, also FAIRMormon might be helpful to him.  I would suggest he keep talking to someone with a strong testimony.  To me this is the way we follow Pres. Uchtdorf's advice to doubt your doubts before you doubt your faith.

I am also saying that when Joe works through this his faith will be even stronger, and so he will be less likely to feel doubt the next time he hears something about church history that concerns him.  

What I fear Joe will believe from some of the posts in this thread is that feeling doubt makes him weak, and maybe even that it is a sin (since some have said it is a commandment not to doubt).  I fear that Joe will then not turn to anyone for help, he will just sit alone and fret.  Maybe he will feel ashamed to pray because of this weakness.  Because he is alone with this doubts, he will turn to Google for answers and find other things that confuse him.  And eventually, his friends will call and say, "We missed you at church" and he will respond that he doesn't believe in the church anymore.  At this point, it will be very difficult to get him back.  

So your turn, if you feel so inclined, to explain better your position.  Is it your opinion that doubt is a weakness or a sin?  What would you suggest to Joe, that he should never doubt?  Or do we agree that his doubt is an opportunity to strengthen his testimony? I'm open to the possibility that I have completely misunderstood your position.  

Elder Jeffrey R. Holland, "Observation number one regarding this account is that when facing the challenge of faith, the father asserts his strength first and only then acknowledges his limitation. His initial declaration is affirmative and without hesitation: “Lord, I believe.” I would say to all who wish for more faith, remember this man! In moments of fear or doubt or troubling times, hold the ground you have already won, even if that ground is limited. In the growth we all have to experience in mortality, the spiritual equivalent of this boy’s affliction or this parent’s desperation is going to come to all of us. When those moments come and issues surface, the resolution of which is not immediately forthcoming, hold fast to what you already know and stand strong until additional knowledge comes." (emphasis added -- and which is choice to hold ground or to hold fast) 

Quote

 

Yes, the book of Job is a very sad and yet enlightening story. In everything he endured: friendships forsaking him, his own wife telling him to curse God and die, and the loss of almost everything, and we read the following, "In all this did not Job sin with his lips."

I too love Job, and find his open honesty remarkable and within his open honesty the Lord declares Job was faithful. Job's friend lecturing him doesn't sound familiar, not at all. No one here is condemning a person for going through trials and saying the reason why he is going through trials is because he has sinned and the Lord has forsaken him. Look at the question, in the next chapter a friend proposes to Job, "Remember, I pray thee, who ever perished, being innocent? or where were the righteous cut off?" In layman terms, "Job, the reason why you are going through this is because you are NOT innocent, you have been cut off from the Lord, and when has the Lord ever cut off the righteous." No, no one commenting in this thread shares this attitude.

 

Speaking of clarifying your position, I appreciate this clarification.  Because to some of us, it does sound like others in this thread are saying that if one finds them self having doubts that is a sin.  Is that not what is implied when you say "do not doubt" is a commandment?  

I'm not at all clear why you chose to emphasize that Job did not sin.  I don't think Job sinned, I didn't say anything to that effect. Where you just trying clarify that you don't feel he sinned either?  

Edited May 12, 2017 by LiterateParakeet

[Traveler]

 

It is my personal opinion that worrying about falling away is not the most effective way to spiritually prepare for our journey into eternity.  I think it better to focus on the joy of journey itself and less about the destination.   Facing mortality with an attitude of joy and love of others is a much better method of navigating sorrows and other possible unforeseen setbacks, than to focus on one’s self and our possible failure.

 

The Traveler

[The Folk Prophet]

"Factual" is not based on opinion.

[The Folk Prophet]

4 hours ago, LiterateParakeet said:

(since some have said it is a commandment not to doubt).

Like Jesus?

[Traveler]

35 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

"Factual" is not based on opinion.

 

Is this your opinion?  Many years ago, I recall sitting in a class at BYU taught by Professor Hugh Nibley, that he often would say that facts are just truths altered by opinion.

 

The Traveler

[The Folk Prophet]

2 minutes ago, Traveler said:

Is this your opinion? 

No.

[Traveler]

Just now, The Folk Prophet said:

No.

 

Whose then?

 

The Traveler

[The Folk Prophet]

3 minutes ago, Traveler said:

 

Whose then?

 

The Traveler

Whose opinion defines the meaning of the word "fact"?

I'd have to do some research. Maybe Webster? Merriam? John Dictionary?

[Traveler]

1 minute ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Whose opinion defines the meaning of the word "fact"?

I'd have to do some research. Maybe Webster? Merriam? John Dictionary?

Again quoting from Hugh Nibley.  "Facts are just truths altered by opinion."

 

The Traveler