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On 5/18/2017 at 1:16 PM, anatess2 said:

Divorce is not allowed in the Roman Catholic Church.  Of course, you can divorce your spouse outside of the Church (secular/legal) but in the records of the Church you are still married.  You can get your marriage annulled which is different from a divorce.  The Philippines (my country), divorce is illegal as a lot of the laws of the land is influenced by the 85+% Roman Catholic population.

Premortal Existence adds new light to the matter of When Does Life Begin?  Catholics teach in Creation out of Nothing - that is, God created the human spirit from nothing at the moment of conception such that if an embryo dies, a human spirit dies.  The gift of free will, therefore, does not include the free choice of which body the human spirit is born into.  LDS do not believe in Creation out of Nothing.  Rather, LDS believe that the human spirit is eternal.  The human spirit exists before conception, chooses by virtue of free will to enter mortality anytime between conception and birth, then sheds that body at death to enter post-mortal life.  Because of this, there is a period of time between conception and birth where the embryo may yet not have become a vessel of a human spirit and therefore the death of the embryo does not necessarily mean a death of a human spirit.  Also, as the spirit has a choice as to the body he enters, there is also the possibility that the spirit chose to join the body that is destined for death before birth.

About challenging one's beliefs - I don't mind it at all.  But, we can discuss the matter ad nauseum and it still wouldn't change the fact that no amount of discussion/debate/challenge can build faith.  Faith is something we have to take to God and the Holy Spirit for confirmation.  Until that confirmation comes, discussing matters of faith is just another interesting past time as there's no way possible that anyone can prove that Bishops have authority in the same manner that there's no way possible that anyone can prove that Joseph Smith has authority in the same manner that there's no way possible that anyone can prove Jesus Christ is God without the confirmation of the Holy Ghost.

 

Well, yes, divorce is permitted in the RCC, just not remarriage after.  And as you well know, annulments are a nullification of the marriage based on conditions for marriage not being met/understood at the time of the marriage.

On to pre-mortal existence- you say that there is a time between conception and birth where the embryo 'may yet not have become a vessel of the human spirit'.  That 'may not' is a sticking point for me, because what if that body HAS become the vessel and it DOES result in the death of the human spirit?  Because you don't know, shouldn't we all err on the side of caution? 

Lastly, I THINK someone in one of these threads said that we have no memory of our pre-mortal existence when we are born into this life.  Was Jesus Christ an exception?  

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4 hours ago, fatima said:

Well, yes, divorce is permitted in the RCC, just not remarriage after.  And as you well know, annulments are a nullification of the marriage based on conditions for marriage not being met/understood at the time of the marriage.

On to pre-mortal existence- you say that there is a time between conception and birth where the embryo 'may yet not have become a vessel of the human spirit'.  That 'may not' is a sticking point for me, because what if that body HAS become the vessel and it DOES result in the death of the human spirit?  Because you don't know, shouldn't we all err on the side of caution? 

Lastly, I THINK someone in one of these threads said that we have no memory of our pre-mortal existence when we are born into this life.  Was Jesus Christ an exception?  

I'll start with the last question because it is the easiest to answer.  No, Jesus Christ was not an exception.  He had to learn everything line upon line, precept upon precept just like everyone else.

About abortion - this is the LDS position:  Human life is a sacred gift from God. Elective abortion for personal or social convenience is contrary to the will and the commandments of God. Church members who submit to, perform, encourage, pay for, or arrange for such abortions may lose their membership in the Church.

But, unlike the Catholic Church, the LDS Church do not consider all fetal deaths - miscarriages, abortions, etc - as the death of a human spirit.  Therefore, when cases such as - the mother's life is on the balance, or in cases such as rape - a pregnant woman can go to the bishop and get assistance from priesthood authority and their keys of discernment to help them decide the best course of action, which can include abortion.

 

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5 hours ago, fatima said:

Well, yes, divorce is permitted in the RCC, just not remarriage after. 

This is not divorce.  This is legal separation.  There's a distinction.  The fact that you can't remarry means your marriage remains in effect.  Legal separation (also codified into secular law in the Philippines), is a protection for a spouse or the children from further harm inflicted by a sinful spouse - for example, protecting the financial state of the family from a gambling spouse; protecting a child from molestation by a parent; protecting a spouse from abuse, etc.  Both spouses remain under covenant and it is still the lifelong commandment for both spouses to bring their husband/wife closer to Christ even if all one can do is pray for their salvation.

In the US, the only way to legally separate is to divorce as there is no legal provisions for a separation that is not divorce.  Therefore, Catholics get divorced in the secular government in the US without constituting a moral offense.  A Filipino Catholic who got married in the Philippines and gets divorced (e.g. going to the US to get divorced) when they can avail of legal separation not only commits a moral offense in the Church, their divorce is also not recognized as valid by the Philippine government.

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51 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

This is not divorce.  This is legal separation.  There's a distinction.  The fact that you can't remarry means your marriage remains in effect.  Legal separation (also codified into secular law in the Philippines), is a protection for a spouse or the children from further harm inflicted by a sinful spouse - for example, protecting the financial state of the family from a gambling spouse; protecting a child from molestation by a parent; protecting a spouse from abuse, etc.  Both spouses remain under covenant and it is still the lifelong commandment for both spouses to bring their husband/wife closer to Christ even if all one can do is pray for their salvation.

In the US, the only way to legally separate is to divorce as there is no legal provisions for a separation that is not divorce.  Therefore, Catholics get divorced in the secular government in the US without constituting a moral offense.  A Filipino Catholic who got married in the Philippines and gets divorced (e.g. going to the US to get divorced) when they can avail of legal separation not only commits a moral offense in the Church, their divorce is also not recognized as valid by the Philippine government.

Ummm...I think we are saying the same thing.  A civil divorce is permitted by the Catholic  Church, but the sacramental marriage is still intact.

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Fatima - You may want to read 'Catholic Roots Mormon Harvest' by Eric Shuster. He covers Catholic and Mormon theology (in a readable manner), where they are similar and where they diverge. It's been a few years since I've read it, but I recall finding it useful when I was investigating Mormonism. 

 

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