Trying to salvage what's left of my marriage


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3 minutes ago, Latter-Day Marriage said:

If the spouse doesn't repent than time won't bring that trust back, nor should it.  Forgetting is figurative, not literal.  The memory is still there but it is back in the dark basement corner of the mind and never comes to the surface unless deliberately dug up.

Sort-of.  I agree with the first sentence, but we should still forgive and forget.   If the spouse doesn't take steps towards repentance than that means the marriage should end as it will be the only way to truly be able to forgive and forget-even if the consequences are still there.

But who is the arbitrator of repentance?  Who gets to declare that the offending spouse has repented?  It certainly isn't the role of the offended spouse to have the privilege of declaring when the adulterer has repented.  That's like giving the offended spouse the Sword of Damocles hanging over their head . . . "do this, do that, I am the arbitrator of whether you have truly repented".  The Gospel doesn't work like that.  Repentance is an individual not group or family thing.  Only God can declare when someone has repented and is forgiven.  That is done 1st through prayer and 2nd through the Bishop who is the Judge in Israel.  The wife nor the husband has the authority to judge when their spouse has repented.  What they can do is ask God to help them understand if the spouse has repented, but they are not there to declare it.

No, I firmly believe the forgetting is very much literal.  Just because you put a file in the trash bin and empty it doesn't mean it can't be recovered.  Just because you forget about an offense doesn't mean access to the memory can't be retrieved.  Forgetting means we don't think about it.

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1 minute ago, yjacket said:

Sort-of.  I agree with the first sentence, but we should still forgive and forget.   If the spouse doesn't take steps towards repentance than that means the marriage should end as it will be the only way to truly be able to forgive and forget-even if the consequences are still there.

But who is the arbitrator of repentance?  Who gets to declare that the offending spouse has repented?  It certainly isn't the role of the offended spouse to have the privilege of declaring when the adulterer has repented.  That's like giving the offended spouse the Sword of Damocles hanging over their head . . . "do this, do that, I am the arbitrator of whether you have truly repented".  The Gospel doesn't work like that.  Repentance is an individual not group or family thing.  Only God can declare when someone has repented and is forgiven.  That is done 1st through prayer and 2nd through the Bishop who is the Judge in Israel.  The wife nor the husband has the authority to judge when their spouse has repented.  What they can do is ask God to help them understand if the spouse has repented, but they are not there to declare it.

No, I firmly believe the forgetting is very much literal.  Just because you put a file in the trash bin and empty it doesn't mean it can't be recovered.  Just because you forget about an offense doesn't mean access to the memory can't be retrieved.  Forgetting means we don't think about it.

Repentance (among us mortals) is about achieving a reconciliation, not forgiveness, it is about restoring the relationship.  The offender doesn't get to decide how hurt the victim should feel, when they should stop feeling hurt, or when the offended should reconcile with them.  It has to be when the offended feels ready and willing to have that kind of relationship with them again and the offender has to deal with that.  Same as they don't get to decide when God forgives them.  At the same time, if the offended is unwilling to forgive and holds a grudge, the greater sin lies with them.  Both have to do their part.

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15 minutes ago, Latter-Day Marriage said:

Repentance (among us mortals) is about achieving a reconciliation, not forgiveness, it is about restoring the relationship.  The offender doesn't get to decide how hurt the victim should feel, when they should stop feeling hurt, or when the offended should reconcile with them.  It has to be when the offended feels ready and willing to have that kind of relationship with them again and the offender has to deal with that.  Same as they don't get to decide when God forgives them.  At the same time, if the offended is unwilling to forgive and holds a grudge, the greater sin lies with them.  Both have to do their part.

Negative to the bold.  https://www.lds.org/topics/repentance?lang=eng  The main point of repentance is not about restoring the relationship.  It may (and frequently is) a component of repentance-but it is not the point of it.  We repent not to restore the relationship between another individual-we repent to restore the our relationship with God.  And that is a huge difference.  And there is no such thing as repentance between individuals, there is only repentance between us and God. 

You are right the offender doesn't get to decide the feelings of the victim, but at the same time the victim doesn't get to decide when the offender has repented.  If they did, it would lead to vengeance and "Vengeance is mine saith the Lord". And in addition, our mortal forgiveness of others trespasses is not contingent upon whether they have repented.

As I've said this is why adultery very often leads to divorce and IMO why the Lord allows adultery to be an acceptable reason for divorce.  It is very, very difficult for spouses to truly repent, forgive, and forget from such a grievous sin.  It can be both a consequence of the sin itself and a protection to the offended party. As the saying goes "out of sight, out of mind", it is much easier to forgive and forget such a sin when that individual's presence is significantly reduced.

Edited by yjacket
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44 minutes ago, yjacket said:

Negative to the bold.  https://www.lds.org/topics/repentance?lang=eng  The main point of repentance is not about restoring the relationship.  It may (and frequently is) a component of repentance-but it is not the point of it.  We repent not to restore the relationship between another individual-we repent to restore the our relationship with God.  And that is a huge difference.  And there is no such thing as repentance between individuals, there is only repentance between us and God. 

You are right the offender doesn't get to decide the feelings of the victim, but at the same time the victim doesn't get to decide when the offender has repented.  If they did, it would lead to vengeance and "Vengeance is mine saith the Lord". And in addition, our mortal forgiveness of others trespasses is not contingent upon whether they have repented.

As I've said this is why adultery very often leads to divorce and IMO why the Lord allows adultery to be an acceptable reason for divorce.  It is very, very difficult for spouses to truly repent, forgive, and forget from such a grievous sin.  It can be both a consequence of the sin itself and a protection to the offended party. As the saying goes "out of sight, out of mind", it is much easier to forgive and forget such a sin when that individual's presence is significantly reduced.

You repent to God when you break commandments (which damages our relationship with God) and want to become reconciled unto God (Jacob 4:11 and many other verses).  Being reconciled to God includes being forgiven. Forgiveness from God only comes on condition of repentance.  The church talks of repentance mainly in that context, but the principle is not limited to that context.

If you violate the rules/expectations of another person and thus offend them (and how you do that may not even be a sin to God) and want to be reconciled with them, you need to follow the same process (recognize, regret, confess, ask forgiveness, make restitution, commit to not doing it again) but in that case it is not about forgiveness, God commanded forgiveness is to be given if you repent or not.  Repenting makes it easier for somebody to forgive, but it is not required.  It is about restoring the relationship, if you want to restore it.

The victim gets to decide if and when the relationship is reconciled in their view and it will depend a lot on what the perpetrator does (or doesn't do) to fix what they broke.  Forgiveness and vengeance can't exist together, if a person is vengeful, they have not forgiven and the greater sin is in them.

 

Edited by Latter-Day Marriage
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On 2017-5-26 at 3:25 AM, anatess2 said:

If I wake up tomorrow to find out my husband is a serial killer then, of course, I'm going to send him to jail and keep him away from me and my children because I have to love myself and staying with him will put myself in danger of getting farther from Christ.  

I hope its not too inappropriate to introduce a moment of levity in a post on such a sensitive topic: 

@anatess2 you wrote this yesterday. Has there been any news since you woke up this morning? 

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I really wonder if this guy is actually repentant. The way he goes after several girls at once, I think, shows he's pretty rotten. It sounds like he has decided that he just wants lots of sex. To me this is a far cry from someone who developed a loving relationship with one woman, and then later succumbed to the physical urges. I'd like to be wrong but this just feels like the difference between (a) resisting temptation but falling in anyway, vs (b) loving it, deciding to jump in head first, and becoming past feeling. I mean it just sounds really, really far out there. 

So my advice is pray for discernment to know if he is repentant. And I don't know how you would do this being young and all, but suddenly becoming wiser about these things is what you need really badly right now. The next best thing is to consult with those who are wise in these matters like your bishop, a trusted wise family member, and last but certainly not least, with God. 

If he's not repentant I'm not sure you should put yourself through the pain of staying with a serial adulterer for the rest of your life. But that certainly is an option. 

The Atonement is real and works. But my basic sniff test says run as fast as you can. I sure hope I'm wrong. Best scenario is he repents and you repair the marriage together. That's what I think we're all hoping for. 

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10 hours ago, eddified said:

I really wonder if this guy is actually repentant. The way he goes after several girls at once, I think, shows he's pretty rotten. It sounds like he has decided that he just wants lots of sex.

Plus the fact that he didn't show any regret or remorse until after he was caught red handed.  He may be repentant, but he has a long way to go to win back her trust.  Not impossible, but he has made it about as hard for himself as he could.

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On 5/26/2017 at 11:36 PM, eddified said:

I really wonder if this guy is actually repentant. The way he goes after several girls at once, I think, shows he's pretty rotten. It sounds like he has decided that he just wants lots of sex.

Sounds like the "natural man" to me.  I wish the OP the best of luck.  She needs to consult an attorney, and she needs to do it now.  Then a qualified marriage and family therapist.  She needs the therapy even if he doesn't attend.  

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On 5/26/2017 at 9:01 PM, askandanswer said:

I hope its not too inappropriate to introduce a moment of levity in a post on such a sensitive topic: 

@anatess2 you wrote this yesterday. Has there been any news since you woke up this morning? 

I thank my lucky stars that I continue to wake up every morning without having faced this dreadful piece of news.  Hah hah.

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