The horror of encroaching public miseducation

[Rob Osborn]

1 minute ago, Backroads said:

You have never been around small kids, have you? 

Yes. But I wouldnt consider even a third grader a small kid.

[Backroads]

So you're really trying to tell me that increasing the time of lousy education will magically make that education useful? You're telling me that young kids can magically sit for hours doing mindless work and that they don't need free play or family time? That they can do this and it will bring down behavior problems instead of increasing them?

 

[Rob Osborn]

5 hours ago, Backroads said:

So you're really trying to tell me that increasing the time of lousy education will magically make that education useful? You're telling me that young kids can magically sit for hours doing mindless work and that they don't need free play or family time? That they can do this and it will bring down behavior problems instead of increasing them?

 

Im all for a complete overhaul of the public education system. But you dont get there overnight. I find it interesting that my daughter goes to a school where it lasts about 35 minutes longer than the one my son went to and in comparison there is no comparison to the quality of education in the longer school. Most public schools last all of 6 to 6 1/2 hours. Most full time jobs in the real world, including lunch hour, last around 9 hours. For those like me, I did a work release program where certain educational skills had to be learned in that work release. It meant I did 4 1/2 hours of in school education then went to the work release program and learned for another 4 hours hands on education. Did I feel deprived of my family? No. Did I recieve a better education? Absolutely. By tge time I was out of high school I had 2 1/2 years of hands on training/education that placed me in the position of having the same level of education as an associates degree. 

Our kids are lazy. Why? Cause we baby them and create these "safe zones" types of environments where we dont want them to feel threatened in the face of competetion and hard work. Kids spend far too much time alone, playing video games, getting in trouble, etc. My kids are busy from morning till evening in school, after school programs, work just like me and they are very happy, healthier and more advanced than most others.

[Backroads]

11 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

Im all for a complete overhaul of the public education system. But you dont get there overnight. I find it interesting that my daughter goes to a school where it lasts about 35 minutes longer than the one my son went to and in comparison there is no comparison to the quality of education in the longer school. Most public schools last all of 6 to 6 1/2 hours. Most full time jobs in the real world, including lunch hour, last around 9 hours. For those like me, I did a work release program where certain educational skills had to be learned in that work release. It meant I did 4 1/2 hours of in school education then went to the work release program and learned for another 4 hours hands on education. Did I feel deprived of my family? No. Did I recieve a better education? Absolutely. By tge time I was out of high school I had 2 1/2 years of hands on training/education that placed me in the position of having the same level of education as an associates degree. 

Our kids are lazy. Why? Cause we baby them and create these "safe zones" types of environments where we dont want them to feel threatened in the face of competetion and hard work. Kids spend far too much time alone, playing video games, getting in trouble, etc. My kids are busy from morning till evening in school, after school programs, work just like me and they are very happy, healthier and more advanced than most others.

Then, sir, I insist you teach a bunch of 8-year-olds denied breaks, who never see their parents, are sleep-deprived, lack social skills, who spend until 10:00 night at your beloved after-school programs, and explain to me why they are not learning anything.

If your longer school days theory truly worked across the board, all longer schools without recesses/breaks would all have better test scores and better behaved kids.

Why don't they?

Edited May 28, 2017 by Backroads

[eddified]

Drugs are spread in public schools. For this reason I'd like my children to spend less time there. We've had children attend public school for kindergarten and first grade but not after that. Homeschooling is our method of eduction. I fear that junior high is a horrible, horrible environment for my children to be avoided at all costs. It's not because of the education. It's because of the students.

The amount of time spent in school is of little concern compared to other matters. 

Our school system is getting a bad rap. I didn't attend any special private school or have any special after school programs during high school. My normal public high school offered many advanced placement classes which I took full advantage of. I graduated high school in 1999 fully ready to attend BYU, which I did. The point here is that there is some really good education happening in public schools. Yes there are many problems. Yes the public schooling system fails on many accounts. But it's not all bad. 

My aunt has been teaching in public schools for decades. Her opinion is that the parents are primarily to blame. This I tend to agree with. The parents don't teach their children true principles. They don't teach the gospel. They don't emphasize education and learning in the home. I lived in South Korea. Those families value education much more than we Americans do. It's not the public schooling there that makes the education levels so high--it's the parents sending their children to tutoring and intensive after school programs. It's a cultural thing, not a public school thing. When liberals compare our public school system in favor of the Swedish (or was it Finland or Norway?) system, they might have a point but they're missing the main point entirely. 

The problem is that parents blame the public school system while at the same time relinquishing their stewardship over their children's education. If Ameican parents as a whole took full responsibility over their children's education (and I'm not just referring to a secular education) then our education as a whole would correspondingly improve. 

[Rob Osborn]

10 hours ago, Backroads said:

Then, sir, I insist you teach a bunch of 8-year-olds denied breaks, who never see their parents, are sleep-deprived, lack social skills, who spend until 10:00 night at your beloved after-school programs, and explain to me why they are not learning anything.

If your longer school days theory truly worked across the board, all longer schools without recesses/breaks would all have better test scores and better behaved kids.

Why don't they?

I dont know what you are talkibg about. Im not advocating no breaks or keeping them til 10:00.

[wenglund]

On 5/25/2017 at 8:35 AM, Vort said:

Front page of this morning's Seattle Times (not worth lining your birdcage with, which is why I will not be renewing my subscription to that awful rag):

http://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/education/washingtons-schools-chief-pitches-vision-of-very-different-school-system/

His "vision" is that

• Three-year-old babies be taken from their parents to be "educated" by the state
• Other children be kept by the state a full hour longer each day for a full month longer each year, because the children are apparently spending too much time with the unfavorable influence of those meddling ne'er-do-well parents.
• After all this extra interference by the state, there will be no accountability, because the child will no longer pass any sort of test to be able to graduate from "high school".

This provides a great incentive for home schooling. Fortunately, the Internet has increasingly provided more and more valuable, highly effective resources for home schooling, such as Freedom Project Academy,  Kahn Academy, and PragerU, 

As the state attempts to take increased control of people's lives, it is nice to know there are preferred alternatives.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Guest MormonGator]

10 minutes ago, wenglund said:

 

As the state attempts to take increased control of people's lives, it is nice to know there are preferred alternatives.

Amen. 

[askandanswer]

Some of the sentiments expressed in the Seattle Times are not too different from those expressed in a program on Australia's government funded Radio National, which expressed concern about the "unfair advantage" that some kids get as a result of their parents reading bedtime stories to them each night. Apparently this practice helps such children in ways that are not available to kids whose parents don't read to them, so it is therefore considered unfair. A few extracts from the program:

I don’t think parents reading their children bedtime stories should constantly have in their minds the way that they are unfairly disadvantaging other people’s children, but I think they should have that thought occasionally.

According to Swift, from a purely instrumental position the answer is straightforward.

‘One way philosophers might think about solving the social justice problem would be by simply abolishing the family. If the family is this source of unfairness in society then it looks plausible to think that if we abolished the family there would be a more level playing field.’   

A transcript of the program is available here 

http://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/philosopherszone/new-family-values/6437058

 

[Backroads]

On 5/28/2017 at 8:35 PM, Rob Osborn said:

I dont know what you are talkibg about. Im not advocating no breaks or keeping them til 10:00.

Every model out there for a longer school day has abolished breaks.

[Rob Osborn]

38 minutes ago, Backroads said:

Every model out there for a longer school day has abolished breaks.

You cant be serious. My daughters school doesnt

[Backroads]

58 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

You cant be serious. My daughters school doesnt

You only said it was half an hour longer than your son's. That's well within the average span of a school day, which can vary district to district, school to school. I doubt the school is hardly marketed as having an intensive and long educational day.

Schools that promote an intense and long school day as means of catching up students/ getting them ready for the next big thing are notorious for cancelling breaks.

Edited May 30, 2017 by Backroads

[Jedi_Nephite]

4 hours ago, askandanswer said:

‘One way philosophers might think about solving the social justice problem would be by simply abolishing the family. If the family is this source of unfairness in society then it looks plausible to think that if we abolished the family there would be a more level playing field.’   

A transcript of the program is available here 

http://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/philosopherszone/new-family-values/6437058

 

1

It's strange how abolishing the family is their answer to "leveling the playing field" as opposed to just encouraging the strengthening of families.

[anatess2]

7 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

You cant be serious. My daughters school doesnt

Okay, you're totally missing the point of the conversation here so I'm going to start this back up from the beginning.

I grew up in the Philippines.  School in the Philippines normally starts from 7:30am and end at 4:30pm with 1 hour lunch and 2 30-minute breaks..  So they're in school for 8 hours but 2 of those hours is break time.  School is Monday to Friday with 12 weeks summer break, 3 weeks Christmas break and 5 holidays.  So, that's 36 weeks of school days - or 4 9-week grading periods. 

In Florida Public School, the school year is also 36 weeks but they have lots of days off within those 9 weeks, like Teacher Planning Days and Early Release Days, etc.  My kids are in Florida magnet school so they get 6 hours.of class period (1.5 hours per class, 4 classes a day).  They don't get breaks in-between classes except for a power hour (that they can use for lunch and anything else they need to do).  So they're in school 7 hours a day.   The regular public school are only in school 5 1/2 hours a day with a 30-minute lunch hour, so they only have 5 hours of class time.  Now, the magnet school - 6 class hours - is the same as Philippine school - 6 class hours. 

Okay, now both Philippine Schools and Florida Public Schools have after-school programs.  The Florida kids usually stay for after-school sports.  In the Philippines, there are a lot of kids that stay longer in school for academics or trade as well as sports.  So, growing up in the Philippines, I stayed  after school to learn computer programming (which I eventually got a job on).  In Florida, one of my kids has stayed for after-school programs for Zoology and Math.  My other kid stayed for after-school programs to do music performances.

So yes, in Florida, the longer days for magnet school as opposed to regular school IS WORKING.  And the reason being - these are SCHOOL CHOICE schools.  You get to apply for the school - it's not your neighborhood school wherein you just get herded there.  And they do something of interest to them that is in their chosen field.  For example - one of my kids is in an Arts Magnet.  So, it's a regular High School plus an Arts program which accounts for the extra class hour.  My other kid is in a Science and Technology Magnet.  So he gets to do some Robotics, Engineering, etc. for the extra class hour.

I think we can all pretty much agree that the family unit in the Philippines are very tight - even with the after-school program.  The reason being - kids are in school not because their parents just put them there for babysitting, or because the government tells them to.  Rather, kids are in school as part of the family ambition.  Parents are very involved in their child's learning experience.

In Florida, magnet school can be very competitive especially for schools like Arts and Technology that is popular choices for kids.  So, normally, parents are very involved in their kids' schools.

BUT, IN SEATTLE, THE LONGER HOURS HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH FAMILY AND AMBITION.  NOTHING.  Do you know why I say that?  BECAUSE THEY ARE EXTENDING SCHOOL DAYS FOR ELEMENTARY SCHOOL KIDS EVEN 3-YEAR-OLDS!   AN ELEMENTARY AGED KID - AND THAT INCLUDES SOUTH KOREA, EVEN - HAS NOT MUCH TO GAIN AND A LOT TO LOSE LEARNING EXTRA STUFF OUTSIDE OF HIS HOME!  Because, what kind of trade can a 3-year-old kid - even a 9-year-old kid gain that is of more benefit than what he learns FROM HIS OWN MOTHER?  So, in the Philippines as well as South Korea, families only avail of the long school hours starting around age 11-12.

So, Filipino and South Korean elementary aged kids learn how to do household duties with their parents before they go out in the world and learn a marketable trade.  THAT IS WHAT'S MISSING FROM SEATTLE.  Seattle thinks the government is a better parent for kids!  SATANIC is quite an apt descriptor for THAT.

 

Edited May 31, 2017 by anatess2

[Rob Osborn]

1 hour ago, anatess2 said:

Okay, you're totally missing the point of the conversation here so I'm going to start this back up from the beginning.

I grew up in the Philippines.  School in the Philippines normally starts from 7:30am and end at 4:30pm with 1 hour lunch and 2 30-minute breaks..  So they're in school for 8 hours but 2 of those hours is break time.  School is Monday to Friday with 12 weeks summer break, 3 weeks Christmas break and 5 holidays.  So, that's 36 weeks of school days - or 4 9-week grading periods. 

In Florida Public School, the school year is also 36 weeks but they have lots of days off within those 9 weeks, like Teacher Planning Days and Early Release Days, etc.  My kids are in Florida magnet school so they get 6 hours.of class period (1.5 hours per class, 4 classes a day).  They don't get breaks in-between classes except for a power hour (that they can use for lunch and anything else they need to do).  So they're in school 7 hours a day.   The regular public school are only in school 5 1/2 hours a day with a 30-minute lunch hour, so they only have 5 hours of class time.  Now, the magnet school - 6 class hours - is the same as Philippine school - 6 class hours. 

Okay, now both Philippine Schools and Florida Public Schools have after-school programs.  The Florida kids usually stay for after-school sports.  In the Philippines, there are a lot of kids that stay longer in school for academics or trade as well as sports.  So, growing up in the Philippines, I stayed  after school to learn computer programming (which I eventually got a job on).  In Florida, one of my kids has stayed for after-school programs for Zoology and Math.  My other kid stayed for after-school programs to do music performances.

So yes, in Florida, the longer days for magnet school as opposed to regular school IS WORKING.  And the reason being - these are SCHOOL CHOICE schools.  You get to apply for the school - it's not your neighborhood school wherein you just get herded there.  And they do something of interest to them that is in their chosen field.  For example - one of my kids is in an Arts Magnet.  So, it's a regular High School plus an Arts program which accounts for the extra class hour.  My other kid is in a Science and Technology Magnet.  So he gets to do some Robotics, Engineering, etc. for the extra class hour.

I think we can all pretty much agree that the family unit in the Philippines are very tight - even with the after-school program.  The reason being - kids are in school not because their parents just put them there for babysitting, or because the government tells them to.  Rather, kids are in school as part of the family ambition.  Parents are very involved in their child's learning experience.

In Florida, magnet school can be very competitive especially for schools like Arts and Technology that is popular choices for kids.  So, normally, parents are very involved in their kids' schools.

BUT, IN SEATTLE, THE LONGER HOURS HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH FAMILY AND AMBITION.  NOTHING.  Do you know why I say that?  BECAUSE THEY ARE EXTENDING SCHOOL DAYS FOR ELEMENTARY SCHOOL KIDS EVEN 3-YEAR-OLDS!   AN ELEMENTARY AGED KID - AND THAT INCLUDES SOUTH KOREA, EVEN - HAS NOT MUCH TO GAIN AND A LOT TO LOSE LEARNING EXTRA STUFF OUTSIDE OF HIS HOME!  Because, what kind of trade can a 3-year-old kid - even a 9-year-old kid gain that is of more benefit than what he learns FROM HIS OWN MOTHER?  So, in the Philippines as well as South Korea, families only avail of the long school hours starting around age 11-12.

So, Filipino and South Korean elementary aged kids learn how to do household duties with their parents before they go out in the world and learn a marketable trade.  THAT IS WHAT'S MISSING FROM SEATTLE.  Seattle thinks the government is a better parent for kids!  SATANIC is quite an apt descriptor for THAT.

 

Well, Im not gonna debate it with you. I just disagree, thats all.

[anatess2]

2 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

Well, Im not gonna debate it with you. I just disagree, thats all.

Wait, what?  You disagree that it is better for young children to learn from their mothers rather than the government?  Surely you jest!

smh.

[Sunday21]

As someone who grew up with two cruel and irresponsible parents...I am grateful for the school system. I want the state to make an effort to socialize children especially as we move into the latter days when families are more and more falling apart. I worked in schools in Regina. Regina is a tough city. Many addicts. High % of prositutes. Those children need a school system. You guys have good caring families. As we go further into the latter days more and more children will be hanging on by their fingernails. I do not want to live in a society of the deprived. 

[Rob Osborn]

6 hours ago, anatess2 said:

Wait, what?  You disagree that it is better for young children to learn from their mothers rather than the government?  Surely you jest!

smh.

Not saying that at all.

[Rob Osborn]

The problems in society are all about lack of correct family relationships. Secondary is the fact that our public school system needs a major overhaul. One thing that needs to be seriously looked at is the amount of time actually spent learning which, in my experience, is just not enough. Five to six hours a day is just not enough in the general 20+ kid sized classroom where a student will generally actually spend less than an hour a day on any given subject. The ramp up and down time doesnt leave much actual hqnds on teacher to student interaction. For this reason alone I love what charter and private schools are doing to work around some of these issues, although way more is needed. There is so much more we can do to improve the public education system. I am speaking more about middle school upwards here. 

 

[Guest]

5 hours ago, Sunday21 said:

As someone who grew up with two cruel and irresponsible parents...I am grateful for the school system. I want the state to make an effort to socialize children especially as we move into the latter days when families are more and more falling apart. I worked in schools in Regina. Regina is a tough city. Many addicts. High % of prositutes. Those children need a school system. You guys have good caring families. As we go further into the latter days more and more children will be hanging on by their fingernails. I do not want to live in a society of the deprived. 

Historically, those without responsible parents had church and other charities to turn to.  This was sufficient because society valued family enough that such cases were the rare exception rather than the rule it is today.

[Sunday21]

2 hours ago, Carborendum said:

Historically, those without responsible parents had church and other charities to turn to.  This was sufficient because society valued family enough that such cases were the rare exception rather than the rule it is today.

But the trends of the past do not continue. Fewer people attend church. Fewer people socialize (Bowling Alone). Fewer people live near their relatives. Consequently, we are increasingly living in a society with unsocialized people who do not have the resources to cope. These people are not educated or socialized so we need schools to socialize at least a little. If we do not have that then increasingly we will be living in a sea of desperate people with no anchors.

[Guest]

31 minutes ago, Sunday21 said:

But the trends of the past do not continue. Fewer people attend church. Fewer people socialize (Bowling Alone). Fewer people live near their relatives. Consequently, we are increasingly living in a society with unsocialized people who do not have the resources to cope. These people are not educated or socialized so we need schools to socialize at least a little. If we do not have that then increasingly we will be living in a sea of desperate people with no anchors.

The underlying philosophy is that because we've gone away from God and family, we continue to go away from God and family.  The only way back to God and family is to go back to God and family.  Continuing to rely on the strong arm of government is to go away from the gentler arms of God and family.

Your attitude is,"since we're here anyway, we'll just go full throttle and hope that more of the same will make it better somehow."

[wenglund]

8 hours ago, Sunday21 said:

As someone who grew up with two cruel and irresponsible parents...I am grateful for the school system. I want the state to make an effort to socialize children especially as we move into the latter days when families are more and more falling apart. I worked in schools in Regina. Regina is a tough city. Many addicts. High % of prositutes. Those children need a school system. You guys have good caring families. As we go further into the latter days more and more children will be hanging on by their fingernails. I do not want to live in a society of the deprived. 

This would make sense were the public school system not a substantial contributor to the breakdown of the family. I am not sure it makes sense to pose as a solution that which helped create the problem to begin with. 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[eddified]

On 5/31/2017 at 5:22 AM, Sunday21 said:

As someone who grew up with two cruel and irresponsible parents...I am grateful for the school system. I want the state to make an effort to socialize children especially as we move into the latter days when families are more and more falling apart. I worked in schools in Regina. Regina is a tough city. Many addicts. High % of prositutes. Those children need a school system. You guys have good caring families. As we go further into the latter days more and more children will be hanging on by their fingernails. I do not want to live in a society of the deprived. 

It's good to see the good and the positive in the school system. I'm glad you found something good in the public school system, something to help you since your parents were, as you said, "irresponsible". However, thinking the school system will, on the whole, be able to successfully pick up where the parents are slacking off/neglecting their duty is a recipe for disaster. There is a reason that the Church has emphasized the importance of family and being good parents.

I don't want the socialization that public schools have to offer. They offer lots of socialization regarding teen sex, drugs, and gang behavior. I fail to see how being socialized in these areas is a good thing. Now, I don't mean to bash public schools. They do a lot of good. But, I really, really don't think that relying on them to meet the needs the parents should be meeting is a good idea.

The children with poor family backgrounds need help. Do not take me for one who doesn't want to help them. I firmly believe that they need good parents, perhaps through adoption, or being raised by Catholic nuns, whatever. It is wonderful to help these kids. I think the main reason that public schools will not work for fixing the family issues is that the government is running the school. The cold, bureaucratic hand of the government will never, ever do a good job (on the whole) of providing the love that children need. [I mean that public schooling can do a lot of good, but on the whole, it never will fill in for good loving family.]

[Traveler]

 

I am very conflicted by this thread.  I used to live in the Seattle area – it was also an area of my mission.  It is still one of my favorite places on earth.  Friends I have there and made there are life long and are great and dear friends – both in and outside the Church.  But Seattle area is also the world headquarters of the Venusian Church, gave us Sonia Johnson, and Ed Decker (I have personal met and dealt with Sonia and Ed while living in Seattle).  I could go on but for me Seattle is the best of times and it is the worst of times.  The LDS church is very strong in the northwest but so is the opposition to the LDS Church.  A conflict of Mormons that echo to a distant past of American history with roots in Missouri and the era of governor Boggs.

I have a long personal history with “Fake News”.  Worse than made up news – I have been personally involved in deliberate lies shrouded in evils of politics.

I am also conflicted with our very poor educational system that is getting worse.   For years (decades) our educational system had deliberately discarded genius and centered on “special needs” – in essence punishing our best and brightest; making our unfortunate the standard measure of success.  Most genius learn to discard our educational system as a worthless distraction.   As bad as Seattle was – when we moved to Utah we discovered the rigors of basic education inferior to what our children experienced in Seattle.   

If there is any hope – it is in families with parents that will sacrifice themselves (their passions, desires and purpose) for each other and the creation of children for teaching and rearing them with the honor of being parents that love bringing children into the world and stay together to care for them.

 

The Traveler

Edited June 5, 2017 by Traveler