askandanswer Posted June 5, 2017 Report Share Posted June 5, 2017 On 2017-6-1 at 5:21 AM, Carborendum said: The underlying philosophy is that because we've gone away from God and family, we continue to go away from God and family. The only way back to God and family is to go back to God and family. Continuing to rely on the strong arm of government is to go away from the gentler arms of God and family. There may be some truth in what you have said, but let's also not forget D&C 134:1 WE believe that governments were instituted of God for the benefit of man; and that he holds men accountable for their acts in relation to them, both in making laws and administering them, for the good and safety of society. Backroads 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Folk Prophet Posted June 5, 2017 Report Share Posted June 5, 2017 31 minutes ago, askandanswer said: There may be some truth in what you have said, but let's also not forget D&C 134:1 WE believe that governments were instituted of God for the benefit of man; and that he holds men accountable for their acts in relation to them, both in making laws and administering them, for the good and safety of society. Let's not forget that when wicked men tried to destroy the free Government and set up their own wicked version of government that God commanded men like Captain Moroni to raise the title of liberty and put to death any who would deny their freedom. Accountability for our actions in relation to wicked governments includes, sometimes, standing strongly against them. askandanswer 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 5, 2017 Report Share Posted June 5, 2017 6 hours ago, askandanswer said: There may be some truth in what you have said, but let's also not forget D&C 134:1 WE believe that governments were instituted of God for the benefit of man; and that he holds men accountable for their acts in relation to them, both in making laws and administering them, for the good and safety of society. I'm not forgetting Section 134. I read it more often than I do the Constitution (which is once a year). You're assuming that any law made with the "intent" to do good will necessarily have the intended effect. The bane of governments is "unintended consequences". Socialism is the Grand Daddy of all such programs. You're also assuming that the instituting of socialistic ideals is for the good and safety of society. Which is of greater importance? That we take care of the poor? Or that we lift them out of poverty? Which is more important? That we feed them spiritually? Or that we feed them physically? Can we do both? Yes, but not through government. Not through the point of a gun. When we take stuff from the wealthy and give it to the poor at the point of a gun, that is theft. This does nothing but tell poor people that because they're poor, it is ok to steal. So, because you're poor, you should worry about survival more than your eternal destiny. Is that what you really want? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Backroads Posted June 5, 2017 Report Share Posted June 5, 2017 The elementary school at which I teach offers after-school programs. I have nothing against these programs, but I also recognize them as what they are: babysitting. Because these are young kids. Sure, it might be fancy babysitting where they are coding or making pottery or playing sports, but it's still babysitting. A jr. high/high school afterschool program? I would trust those kids are in there willingly and learning some truly awesome stuff, but at my level, those programs exist because we are a Title 1 school with a lot of parents working multiple jobs and we requested grants to help out the community by tending their kids a few more hours a day. Our school is also 45 minutes longer than the surrounding school district (we being a charter). We do okay in those stupid tests, but no one pretends the after school programs and longer days are solely for the goal of educational aspirations. eddified and mordorbund 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Backroads Posted June 5, 2017 Report Share Posted June 5, 2017 On 5/31/2017 at 5:22 AM, Sunday21 said: As someone who grew up with two cruel and irresponsible parents...I am grateful for the school system. I want the state to make an effort to socialize children especially as we move into the latter days when families are more and more falling apart. I worked in schools in Regina. Regina is a tough city. Many addicts. High % of prositutes. Those children need a school system. You guys have good caring families. As we go further into the latter days more and more children will be hanging on by their fingernails. I do not want to live in a society of the deprived. I too agree with this. Again, I am very much for strengthening the family and all that, but I see the community (state, country, etc) as their own levels of a family. There is nothing wrong with strengthening those. Sunday21 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anatess2 Posted June 5, 2017 Report Share Posted June 5, 2017 On 5/31/2017 at 10:31 AM, Rob Osborn said: The problems in society are all about lack of correct family relationships. Secondary is the fact that our public school system needs a major overhaul. One thing that needs to be seriously looked at is the amount of time actually spent learning which, in my experience, is just not enough. Five to six hours a day is just not enough in the general 20+ kid sized classroom where a student will generally actually spend less than an hour a day on any given subject. The ramp up and down time doesnt leave much actual hqnds on teacher to student interaction. For this reason alone I love what charter and private schools are doing to work around some of these issues, although way more is needed. There is so much more we can do to improve the public education system. I am speaking more about middle school upwards here. This is FAR from the problem of the American Public School. The ONE AND ONLY problem of Public School is that there is NO CHOICE. Period. End Stop. All other problems stem from this ONE BASIC FLAW. Backroads 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Osborn Posted June 5, 2017 Report Share Posted June 5, 2017 6 minutes ago, anatess2 said: This is FAR from the problem of the American Public School. The ONE AND ONLY problem of Public School is that there is NO CHOICE. Period. End Stop. All other problems stem from this ONE BASIC FLAW. Thats certainly your opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anatess2 Posted June 5, 2017 Report Share Posted June 5, 2017 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said: Thats certainly your opinion. Yes, of course. You seem to take a lot of stock on South Korean opinion. Well, I grew up in Asia with a school system similar, if not more rigorous than South Korea. I now have high schoolers in the American Public School System. That's my credentials. You can dismiss my opinion as irrelevant because it doesn't agree with yours. That's the close-mindededness that has brought the American School System (from Kindergarten to Universities) into its current deplorable state... well, that, and self-aggrandizing American politicians. Edited June 5, 2017 by anatess2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Osborn Posted June 5, 2017 Report Share Posted June 5, 2017 Case in point is that my son is currently in college to get his degree. He works in the after school learning program in the elementary schhols in his district to help under priveledged/ troubled kids. The impact that it has is a complete positive. They are learning more, in some cases its the exact difference in them passing their grades. You cant tell me its not beneficial. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Osborn Posted June 5, 2017 Report Share Posted June 5, 2017 4 minutes ago, anatess2 said: Yes, of course. You seem to take a lot of stock on South Korean opinion. Well, I grew up in Asia with a school system similar, if not more rigorous than South Korea. I now have high schoolers in the American Public School System. That's my credentials. You can dismiss my opinion as irrelevant because it doesn't agree with yours. That's the close-mindededness that has brought the American School System (from Kindergarten to Universities) into its current deplorable state... well, that, and self-aggrandizing American politicians. You have no idea my background and what I know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anatess2 Posted June 5, 2017 Report Share Posted June 5, 2017 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said: Case in point is that my son is currently in college to get his degree. He works in the after school learning program in the elementary schhols in his district to help under priveledged/ troubled kids. The impact that it has is a complete positive. They are learning more, in some cases its the exact difference in them passing their grades. You cant tell me its not beneficial. So, you're saying, because it works for those kids for that program, extended hours must be forced on all kids even if it is just an extension of their terrible regular education in the first place. That's what you're saying. Edited June 5, 2017 by anatess2 mordorbund and Backroads 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anatess2 Posted June 5, 2017 Report Share Posted June 5, 2017 1 minute ago, Rob Osborn said: You have no idea my background and what I know. I did not pretend to know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Osborn Posted June 5, 2017 Report Share Posted June 5, 2017 3 minutes ago, anatess2 said: So, you're saying, because it works for those kids for that program, it extended hours must be forced on all kids even if it is just an extension of their terrible regular education in the first place. That's what you're saying. What I am saying is that the extra bit of time they are receiving is vastly beneficial. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anatess2 Posted June 5, 2017 Report Share Posted June 5, 2017 (edited) 10 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said: What I am saying is that the extra bit of time they are receiving is vastly beneficial. Yes, it is beneficial if the extra bit of time is of better quality (including morality) than what a mother can provide at home. The Public School System in Seattle is of a quality MUCH LESSER than the home. Extra time in Public School is exacerbating the problem as it takes the kid away from the home where the ravages of Public School Education can be untaught. This is what I've been trying to explain to you. SCHOOL CHOICE, therefore, is the problem. If the system was founded on School Choice, then a mother can shop around for the school that provides a better quality education that supplements her teaching at home and it will not be detrimental to the child's growth (especially its impact on spiritual growth) for the mother to outsource the job of educating children for however many hours in the day they want to spend on it. Edited June 5, 2017 by anatess2 Backroads 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Osborn Posted June 5, 2017 Report Share Posted June 5, 2017 3 minutes ago, anatess2 said: Yes, it is beneficial if the extra bit of time is of better quality (including morality) than what a mother can provide at home. The Public School System in Seattle is of a quality MUCH LESSER than the home. Extra time in Public School is exacerbating the problem as it takes the kid away from the home where the ravages of Public School Education can be untaught. This is what I've been trying to explain to you. SCHOOL CHOICE, therefore, is the problem. If the system was founded on School Choice, then a mother can shop around for the school that provides a better quality education that supplements her teaching at home and it will not be detrimental to the child's growth for the mother to outsource the job of educating children for however many hours in the day they want to spend on it. Ideally, home schooling, with a parent that really knows is the best of worlds. Practically though, its an impossibility. Most homes do not have a stay at home mom who is married in a traditional family with dad as the breadwinner. Like I said before, the number 1 problem is the broken home, secondary is the public school system. Most kids come home to a home that is void of parents for at least an hour or more because their parents/parent are at work. That unsupervised time is not productive for kids. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anatess2 Posted June 5, 2017 Report Share Posted June 5, 2017 (edited) 11 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said: Ideally, home schooling, with a parent that really knows is the best of worlds. Practically though, its an impossibility. Most homes do not have a stay at home mom who is married in a traditional family with dad as the breadwinner. Like I said before, the number 1 problem is the broken home, secondary is the public school system. Most kids come home to a home that is void of parents for at least an hour or more because their parents/parent are at work. That unsupervised time is not productive for kids. I am not just talking about homeschooling. I'm talking about parent-directed schooling. That's the system you are praising in South Korea. Homeschooling is rare in Asia even as single-income families are still the norm. Parent-directed schooling is crippled in the US because of "free Public School" where parents are forced to send their kids as the school funds doesn't follow the kid if they opt out of the Public School System. So these kids end up in government-directed schooling unless the parents can afford to pay taxes for the Public School and still pay for alternative school choices. And just like @The Folk Prophet said. The problem of lesser God and family is not solved by more government. It is solved by more God and family. Edited June 5, 2017 by anatess2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Folk Prophet Posted June 5, 2017 Report Share Posted June 5, 2017 21 minutes ago, anatess2 said: I am not just talking about homeschooling. I'm talking about parent-directed schooling. That's the system you are praising in South Korea. Homeschooling is rare in Asia even as single-income families are still the norm. Parent-directed schooling is crippled in the US because of "free Public School" where parents are forced to send their kids as the school funds doesn't follow the kid if they opt out of the Public School System. So these kids end up in government-directed schooling unless the parents can afford to pay taxes for the Public School and still pay for alternative school choices. And just like @The Folk Prophet said. The problem of lesser God and family is not solved by more government. It is solved by more God and family. @Carborendum said that. I agree...but....credit due.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Osborn Posted June 5, 2017 Report Share Posted June 5, 2017 2 hours ago, anatess2 said: I am not just talking about homeschooling. I'm talking about parent-directed schooling. That's the system you are praising in South Korea. Homeschooling is rare in Asia even as single-income families are still the norm. Parent-directed schooling is crippled in the US because of "free Public School" where parents are forced to send their kids as the school funds doesn't follow the kid if they opt out of the Public School System. So these kids end up in government-directed schooling unless the parents can afford to pay taxes for the Public School and still pay for alternative school choices. And just like @The Folk Prophet said. The problem of lesser God and family is not solved by more government. It is solved by more God and family. They arent forced to attend the one and only public school. Many charter schools are popping up that use the same public funds. And again, I agree the main problem is a broken home system. But, the things we do do with public funds can greatly be improved upon. Backroads 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anatess2 Posted June 5, 2017 Report Share Posted June 5, 2017 (edited) 50 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said: They arent forced to attend the one and only public school. Many charter schools are popping up that use the same public funds. Depends on the State you're in. Florida, for example, is Betsy DeVos' playground on school choice and so we have several public-funded schooling alternatives. Even then, just a few weeks ago, I had to go fight a battle at the school board when our public school system tried to block funding to Charters. Now, imagine Seattle... Edited June 5, 2017 by anatess2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Osborn Posted June 5, 2017 Report Share Posted June 5, 2017 2 minutes ago, anatess2 said: Depends on the State you're in. Florida, for example, is Betsy DeVos' playground on school choice and so we have several public-funded schooling alternatives. Even then, just a few weeks ago, I had to go fight a battle at the school board when our public school system tried to block funding to Charters. Now, imagine Seattle... Seattle is a bunch of hippies Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Backroads Posted June 6, 2017 Report Share Posted June 6, 2017 It's funny. My charter school has probably over half the staff, including the administration, as incredibly liberal people. Liberals typically hate charter schools. It was interesting to read the social media comments as my liberal colleagues tried to create a liberal defense for charter schools in the wake of DeVos. (they did pretty well, I think.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpiritDragon Posted June 7, 2017 Report Share Posted June 7, 2017 The struggle is real. The socialists are trying to brainwash our children and remove our ability to fortify them with the ability to see through their crappy "education" - erm- indoctrination. Take a look at some of the tactics being used by our socialist government in Alberta, Canada. wenglund 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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