The Crossroads of My Dreams and Destiny

[Gazing at essence]

Before I begin, I feel a sense of urgency in clearly stating from the get go that I understand this is an incredibly sensitive subject, and I am fully aware that there are plenty of people who have experienced the heartbreaking situation I am staring at. To you and also to those of different perspectives, I ask that you take the time to read this post and make an effort to see my trial from both my perspective and from her's (especially those who have walked either side of this road before) and please provide any insight or help that you may feel inclined to offer. Anything will be appreciated.

It is 2:58 in the morning, and I still cannot sleep. I have a job interview tomorrow but that does not worry me really, I am actually looking forward to it. The real reason that my eyes are still open is because I see her and her former boyfriends and I cannot help but wonder the details that would cut the wound in my heart deeper. She called me on the phone a couple of days ago to open up about her sexual history a little bit after I had mentioned my thoughts on and commitment towards the Law of Chastity. Our communication is limited to FaceTime, phone calls, and text right now because we are currently in different countries. She did not tell me the details but she told me enough to where I can make a very good prediction concerning how far she has been with a couple of guys.

Let me rewind: 

From the moment we first met there was an instant connection. Things just felt so different with her. Natural. Calm. Comfortable. I have not felt this strong of a bond with any girl in a long time. And this could of course grow firmer with time. 

I appreciated her honesty in telling me a little bit of her sinful past before things with us get too serious. I have heard horror stories of spouses lying to each other about the depth of their sexual history in order to get married in the temple to their finance, only for the truth to eventually creep its way out and destroy their superficially honest marriage. My prayers go out to people who have been lied to or betrayed in that sense, I cannot even imagine the pain they must experience. How grateful I am to know she trusts me enough to divulge her darker secrets. She did so with a quaking voice and although I could not physically see her face while we talked, I was able to see her crying. She mentioned that she has repented of them and talked with her bishop to overcome these sins. She told me she finds my commitment to the standards of the church beautiful, and she told me she understands if I want to only marry a woman who has been as faithful to the Law of Chastity as I have. I told her thank you multiple times for sharing such private information, and that I would like a little time to just think. And thinking is what I have done, what I am doing right now at this moment, and probably what I will be doing until I come to some sort of conclusion. 

The story of the prodigal son has always been very hard for me to read. I feel like the son who stayed on the farm watching the celebrations from a distance. I have grown up listening to the apostles and following their counsel to the best of my ability. I haven't committed sexual sins (major or minor) even though there have been times when I was tempted. I'll be honest: part of me is wondering why I even tried so hard. Plenty of youth and young adults slip into sexual transgression and then repent and become wonderful teachers of the gospel and bear powerful testimony. All of them talk about how much they have learned and benefited from their mistakes. Like me, do you also think they get the best of both worlds? I do not fully understand the atonement, and maybe that is why I often feel jealous of those who rebel and come back. They experience the pleasure of the world and also know the redeeming love of the gospel at a level I do not. I recognize that this is my own problem and I need to change in this respect, but I cannot help but watch the arrival of my younger brother from a distance and envy the experiences and also the warm welcome home that accompanied his journey. 

Since my earliest recollection, I told myself that I would only marry a woman who has remained pure and virtuous sexually. I passed up opportunities to adventure off sexually and continue to do so with a rooted hope that my future spouse is doing the same. I told myself no matter what that if the woman I was planning on marrying or a woman I was getting very serious with opened up about a sinful sexual past to me, I would thank them for their honesty and walk away. I understand that they could be completely forgiven and clean, and I do not hold the sins against them or judge them. I simply have always wanted to marry a woman who is sexually pure. I loved the Lord even during my trying high school years enough to not walk down those promiscuous roads. There are plenty of great young women in the church who do the exact same thing. If a woman were to approach me and reveal her past like that, I would tell her that if she has repented sincerely that the Lord will not punish her. But I would emphasize that my reason for leaving is not out of anger but out of a loyalty to the sexually pure wife and future I have prepared for since I was a deacon first learning about the Law of Chastity. My father and grandfather both have told me they cannot argue with this desire, and have even applauded me for it. But they also told me that her sexual past should not be that big of a deal to me and that other factors such as her current commitment to the gospel are much more important. Maybe more years will bring me this elevated vision and healthier understanding. For now I still just worry and lament over this spiritual place I am in. I understand that she has fully repented. Is it unfair of me to leave? I think she deserves someone who will see her for the beautiful daughter of God that she is and not worry about her past. What steps do I take next? Is it out of line to ask her the exact details so I know the full picture as well as she can recall? I still really like her and want to continue our relationship, I still feel like we belong together. But is it fair to either of us? Am I wrong to think I deserve someone more sexually pure? Please help me. If you feel comfortable sharing your experiences by all means, please do. 

[Jane_Doe]

From the sounds of it, this lady is 100% devoted to the Law of Chasity.  She is 100% sexually pure.  Has she always been?  No, she was honest about that with you.  But that doesn't change the simple fact that she is 100% devoted to the Law of Chasity and is 100% sexually pure.  

I understand your sympathizing with the prodigal son's elder brother.  We so frequently we see the younger son as getting to party and later be a saint-- liking having the best of both worlds.  We mentally skip over the eatings-with-the-pigs episode.  We skip over all the pain and misery the prodigal's actions on himself and his family.  Misery far surpassing the seconds of fake fun.  We also overlook the other prodigal -- the elder son.  

To quote Elder Holland: "  But being caught up in this younger son’s story, we can miss, if we are not careful, the account of an elder son, for the opening line of the Savior’s account reads, “A certain man had two sons”—and He might have added, “both of whom were lost and both of whom needed to come home.”  ..... Feeling unappreciated and perhaps more than a little self-pity, this dutiful son—and he is wonderfully dutiful—forgets for a moment that he has never had to know filth or despair, fear or self-loathing. He forgets for a moment that every calf on the ranch is already his and so are all the robes in the closet and every ring in the drawer. He forgets for a moment that his faithfulness has been and always will be rewarded.

"No, he who has virtually everything, and who has in his hardworking, wonderful way earned it, lacks the one thing that might make him the complete man of the Lord he nearly is. He has yet to come to the compassion and mercy, the charitable breadth of vision to see that this is not a rival returning. It is his brother. As his father pled with him to see, it is one who was dead and now is alive. It is one who was lost and now is found.

"Certainly this younger brother had been a prisoner—a prisoner of sin, stupidity, and a pigsty. But the older brother lives in some confinement, too. He has, as yet, been unable to break out of the prison of himself. He is haunted by the green-eyed monster of jealousy. He feels taken for granted by his father and disenfranchised by his brother, when neither is the case. "

I would highly recommend you read/listen to rest of Elder's Hollands fantastic talk -- https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2002/04/the-other-prodigal?lang=eng

Edited May 26, 2017 by Jane_Doe

[eddified]

I did not fall into sexual transgression with any women, and saved myself for my wife. Now that I am married, I can tell you I am very glad that I saved myself. Those people that fell into sexual transgressions and then repented will always have that memory. And if they repented fully, I bet that they wish they had never strayed in the first place. My point is that you should be glad that you have stayed true to the Law of Chastity. I'm glad that you have as well. It is better to avoid the sin than to sin and then repent. 

[eddified]

I understand your desire for a sexually pure wife. I would caution that perhaps your fears are correct. Perhaps she is still weak in it, that might be something to worry about for the long haul calld marriage. I would find out how long ago the issues occurred. Passage of time is a pretty important piece of information.

On the other hand, ultimately the Holy Spirit should be your guide. God may have plans for you that perhaps go against your desire to marry a virgin. God's desires in this matter are more important than any other consideration. Get close to God. Submit yourself to His will. Fast and pray. I do not doubt that if you follow the program, God will lead you in this journey, since marriage is a decision with eternal consequences. God bless. 

[eddified]

It may also be that God doesn't have a specific path in mind for you regarding this. He may be deferring this to your preference. Holding a preference such as yours is not a bad thing. It could be considered a neutral thing in God's eyes. In which case He will allow you to make the choice according to your preference, because your preference is important to you. There are even instances in the scriptures when God/Jesus pretty much stated that it doesn't really matter which path was chosen....

[Latter-Day Marriage]

I understand your challenges with the story of the prodigal son.  Something that you need to understand from it though is that the prodigal son doesn't get a new inheritance.  He was welcomed back with love and his father celebrated his return, but this took nothing away from his faithful son.  The negative feelings the faithful son had were unchristlike and he wasn't appreciating the blessings he had as a result of his obedience.

You need to put yourself in her shoes.  She make mistakes, and even though she repented of them that didn't change the past.  She konws what she did, she has to live with the regret of it all her life.  There is no time machine to take her back so she can stop herself from doing it.  And now she has met the great guy that she has fallen in love with and because of her past she has to go through the torment of confessing her mistakes and perhaps being rejected by him.  All those other kids you envy for sinning and repenting have to live with and go through similar things.  It is always better to obey than to sin and repent.  It is wrong to feel jealousy and resentment that others 'get to sin' and you should not take that out on her.  You should recognized that their sin brought them pain, feel sorrow for their struggle and compassion for their well being, and be happy for their repentance, not resentful.

Is you rejecting her going to help her feel forgiven, she probably struggles to see herself as anything other than 'damaged goods' and  you are considering doing something to drive that thought deeper into her heart for no good reason.

The fact of the matter is that she is worthy of your love, she is worthy of every blessing God has for the righteous.  The question is are you worthy of her?  I don't fault you for preferring to marry somebody who did not make such mistakes, but to make that a requirement is uncharitable, uncompassionate, proud, selfish, unforgiving, unchristlike, cruel, self righteous and foolish.  Abandon your ill conceived pledge, ask her to forgive you for making it, and start seeing people as Christ sees them.  She has confessed and repented of her wrongs, you need to do the same.

She did those things when she was a different person, she did those things when she did not know you.  They are not offenses against you and you have no right to impose a penalty on her for them.  It doesn't matter what she used to be like and what she used to do, what matters is who she is here and now.

Please go and read the last half of Luke 7 and consider how this applies to you.  If you can truly forgive her totally, look her in the eye and tell her you regret she had to go through those things, you share her sorrow and regret over them, but it doesn't stop you from wanting to be with her, she may figuratively (or even literally) fall at your feet and wet them with her tears and love you with depth and passion a virgin wouldn't understand.

Edited May 26, 2017 by Latter-Day Marriage

[my two cents]

14 minutes ago, Latter-Day Marriage said:

I understand your challenges with the story of the prodigal son.  Something that you need to understand from it though is that the prodigal son doesn't get a new inheritance.

Thank you for saying that.  This point is something I realized some years ago but is never mentioned but important to know.

[Latter-Day Marriage]

Also, it is the law of chastity, not the law of virginity.  She has repented and is forgiven, so she has reclaimed her chastity.

[my two cents]

@Gazing at essence - First, welcome to the forum.  I can see where you're coming from and applaud your strength of character and commitment to live the law of chastity despite the temptation to do otherwise.  I agree with eddified about knowing how long ago the issues occurred and would add to find out about stds just in case.  One thing to keep in mind is that since she's been through the repentance process, she may have a deeper understanding and appreciation for the atonement which is a plus and something you could learn from (not condoning or advocating sinning).  I have a sister that had two kids from a long-term but too early relationship.  My brother-in-law saw that she was a good catch though and they've had a strong marriage and built a wonderful life together.

Oh - you mentioned your dad and grandpa's opinion on the matter.  I know you need a sounding board but please don't share her transgressions with others (at least not people that she may eventually call family) unless you have her ok to do so.

[MrShorty]

A few thoughts:

1) Marriage is arguably one of the most important choices/decisions/covenants a person will undertake in this life. Because it is so significant, an individual should have the right and stewardship to make whatever judgements are needed in choosing a spouse. This can include the decision to only marry a virgin. (This thread included some discussion around whether or not virginity is a good criteria for choosing a spouse, with people on both sides of the issue https://mormonhub.com/forums/topic/60224-4-better-chastity-object-lessons-for-youth/

There can be a variety of opinions on the topic, but ultimately I believe it is within your right and stewardship to decide this for yourself, even if/when others would make a different choice. I don't think there is a single, universal right or wrong answer to this discussion.

2) You toss around the term "sexually pure" as a synonym for "virginity". As others have noted, this is not exactly true, even though our discourse often conflates these concepts. I would recommend some serious introspection on your part. Beyond the semantics of what the words mean, what do these concepts mean to you personally? What does virginity really mean to you, and why is it important? What is sexual purity and why is it important? What does it mean to you to be sexually experienced and what are your real concerns with her sexual experiences? (An example of the kind of thing to think about, especially if you are still inexperienced: Our culture tends to stereotype men as the ones who should be more sexually experienced and knowledgeable. How much of your concern might be with your discomfort being the less knowledgeable/less experienced? Another line of thought -- what difference, if any, would there be for you if her previous experience was "legitimate" -- as in she was previously married but now divorced?)

There's a lot to this kind of discussion, and it is ultimately your responsibility and stewardship to make these kinds of choices. Speaking for myself hypothetically in the same situation, I would be inclined towards less concern for her sexual history. But, your choices might be totally different, and that would be fine as well.

 

[Gazing at essence]

Thank you everybody for your comments and advice. I have taken in everything and plan to reread the Elder Holland talk mentioned and also study Luke 7 as both were recommended earlier. I am attending the temple today and will there pray to the Lord to know what He would have me do. I appreciate the compassion and sincerity of your replies. 

I would like to add that I understand the "problems" revolving around this situation are my own. She has repented and is clean now. 

A question along the lines of "how much time has passed since her last sexual activity" was asked earlier. The answer, to the best of my understanding, would be a couple of years. 

Now here are a few more of my concerns and thoughts: 

1. As MrShorty questioned, yes I am very uncomfortable with the fact that she is much more sexually experienced than me. Not being able to learn and explore together sexually from square one is something I find extremely bothersome. And that is a consequence of her prior actions. I want to be able to mourn with those that mourn and comfort those that stand in need of comfort, but it almost seems like I am being punished for her sins as well

2. I know that my pride is a huge problem here. This may sound awful, but I really hesitate to call her sexually pure even if she is currently clean. Say a teenager were to purposefully do something really reckless and get in an accident where he loses an arm, he will live with that his whole life. The passage of time will never change the past. We can be freed from our sins and mistakes but not always the repercussions that they bring about. Latter-Day Marriage, I appreciated your thoughts but I struggle to agree with just a few things you mentioned (you did help me see it from her perspective better though  ). One being that she has reclaimed her chastity (even if she is currently clean I would contend that that is something impossible to do). I think the apostles warn us of the consequences of breaking the Law of Chastity because it is something that can never be undone. You can be forgiven and made clean again but those poor choices were still made nonetheless and you cannot regain your virginity. I just cannot imagine being married to a woman throughout eternity and knowing that one of us had made serious sexual transgressions with another person before we married each other. How could I ever testify to my kids of the joys a couple who remained chaste until marriage will experience? How can I teach my kids the Lord's way and promise them blessings and comfort for obeying the Law of Chastity when my wife had neglected to obey it throughout her youth and young adulthood? 

3. She is a wonderful daughter of God and she deserves someone who will get past this. I honestly do not know if I can mature to a level of compassion where I can be this person and not feel jealousy or sorrow. How can a Latter Day Saint couple where one or two of the spouses has seriously sexually transgressed expect more from their kids? How can they proclaim throughout the eternities how grateful they are that they had stayed true to the counsel of God in regards to sexual purity? It just doesn't seem to me like an obstacle that can be overcome. I realize I have a young, weak perspective so far from eternal. 

4. I appreciated MrShorty's emphasis on it still being my choice and for eddified's respect of my preference. Would it be wrong to follow my dreams of marrying a virgin and leave her solely for this reason? I know she is forgiven but this is not the type of marriage I dreamed of as a kid and I just don't see me being happy in that type of a relationship. When I was a young boy at one of my first EFYs I watched an instructor cry as she said that she and her husband struggle with overcoming the husband's sexual transgressions of decades ago (I still have no clue why she shared this in front of such a large audience). I told myself in that moment "Heck I need to make sure that that is not me. I will do my part but wow, that just seems ugly". I am completely lost. 

5. In Latter Day Saint culture (or other cultures where sexual abstinence before marriage is taught so diligently) do we have a right to ask our future spouses for a complete rundown of their sexual past? Is it fair to know all the details before making a decision?

[eddified]

#5 isn't a cultural thing. It's a relationship thing.  I don't think LDS culture says anything about the matter. It really just depends on what you feel comfortable asking of someone that you are in a relationship with. When people become really close they tend to open up about these things. If you are not close enough to her to be comfortable asking the question, then maybe you need to let some more time pass before you get close enough to be able to ask it. In other words you might still get closer and then you can ask her. If you never get to that point then perhaps you should pass on her and find someone who you are comfortable with asking such questions. I say this because it seems to me you feel like you should be close enough to someone to be able to ask that question. If that is your standard for someone to marry then keep to it. 

I wholeheartedly agree with Mr. Shorty's comment under (1). This is your decision and you are fully justified in making such a decision for your own spouse and eternal marriage. He also makes a good point under (2) that you should make a distinction between "sexually pure" and "virginity". However I will note that the book of Mormon uses the word "Chastity" in the sense of "virginity". See Moroni 9:9-10. My point is this : "Chasity" can mean different things in different contexts. I think in modern context it usually means clean and sexually pure. 

I will repeat: it is not evil to have a goal of marrying a virgin.  You should forgive her, but that does not necessarily mean that you should stick with her if it does not match your personal preferences and goals. Whether it is a good idea to leave her in the hopes that you might find something better later is an entirely different matter.  How old are you? (Rhetorical question) You might want to take that in to consideration.  I'm just making the point that you won't have endless chances to get married.  Especially if you have very high standards. 

 

You said, " it almost seems like I am being punished for her sins as well". Note that this is true of all kinds of sin not just sexual sin and not just in marriage. The sins we commit will always be hurting other people. It's just part of life.

Note that you'll never find anyone perfect. I'm lucky because I got someone who almost is

I'll be very honest here:  I am very, very thankful that my wife and I both saved ourselves for each other. To me this is a very great blessing.  It would be hard for me if it was any other way.  But please keep in mind that the Lord may have other plans for you. I wish you the best.

[eddified]

The fact that she would tell you this about her, without even being asked, says a lot about her and how she feels about you. She seems like she might be a good catch, provided you are happy with everything else you know about her. 

[Jane_Doe]

@Gazing at essence, I would seriously like to applaud the honest way you're going about this (honest about her shortcomings and your own), and how you're taking things to the Lord.  It is truly admirable.

Speaking from my own history here (trying to share different perspectives), I was not a virgin when I was married-- I lost my virginity to a child molester LONG years before getting married.  My husband likewise lost his own virginity to a different molester.  As others have said here: virginity =/= chastity.   My future-husband and I dealt with our trauma different ways. I spent my teenage years beyond terrified of physical touch / intimacy- I actually broke my friend's nose in fury because he called his girlfriend "cute" (obviously not a good choice).  My future-husband took a different path and got inappropriately involved with his girlfriend (also obviously not a good choice).  He later came unto Christ and repented of his sins and received His healing.  I also came unto Christ and received His healing.

Nothing is ever going to undo either of our sexual past: nothing "undoes" sexual abuse, nothing "undoes" willing sexual transgression.  Neither of us will ever forget the past and the gut wrenching pain it caused.  The past is part of who we are, and those experiences both molded us into the people we are today.  Both of us came into our marriage with that being part of who are.  But there's something bigger than the sum of our past mistakes: Christ's healing.  Christ's ability to transform each and everyone of us.  Christ.... I can't express to you the magnitude of the NEW person I am compared to before.  It is a totally different person.  And as to my husband... even my experience is trumped by his.  We were both remade and 100% chaste when we entered into our marriage.  And man... it's been the most wonderful marriage.

 

Edited May 26, 2017 by Jane_Doe

[Jane_Doe]

As to your questions: of "how do we teach our kids to be chaste when she was not always thus"?

@Gazing at essence: have you ever lied?  I'm going to guess that yes you have.  And yet, you're going to teach your children the importance of being truthful.  Teach them of the joys that come from truthfulness and the pain that comes from deceit.  Your experience (sinning and repenting) does not disqualify you from teaching them.

It is the same with every other sin, including keeping the Law of Chasity.  

[MrShorty]

1). An invitation to deeper introspection: Why are you extremely bothered by not being able to explore sexually together? What does this even mean? What are you expecting to learn and explore? As a preface to this introspection, I will note that many I have seen comment on this have suggested that we each bring our individuality to our sexuality so that we are often as unique sexually as we are unique in other ways. What we "learn" from one sexual partner does not always translate to another sexual partner.

55 minutes ago, Gazing at essence said:

How could I ever testify to my kids of the joys a couple who remained chaste until marriage will experience?

This is a good question. It is one that I ask myself, even though I was a virgin who married a virgin. Invitation to further introspection: What are these "joys" you expect from "virginity" (I am going to substitute this word for "chaste" because I think it is a more precise term for the concept you are using) at marriage? What "pain and sorrow" do you anticipate from a "non-virgin" marriage? What relationship do you believe exists between "virgin" and "sexual joy"? How black and white is your impression? Do you see it as "virgins who marry is all joy and bliss" where "non-virgins who marry only reap pain and sorrow in the marriage bed?" (FWIW, in my experience, it is definitely not this black and white. Thus, my difficulty in knowing if I could testify of the joys of a virgin marriage).

 

1 hour ago, Gazing at essence said:

I honestly do not know if I can mature to a level of compassion where I can be this person and not feel jealousy or sorrow.

Even if you decide to break it off with this girl, I would suggest that you work on this. Marriage will force you to grow, and marriage will fail when it is trying to force you to grow beyond your limits. Even when you find a girl without a sexual history, she will likely bring something else to the marriage altar (money, in laws, temper, who knows) that will push you to grow. This is a big part of why I think it is a personal choice and no "right and wrong" answers to the "is this a deal breaker" question. Only you and God (and probably God more than you) really know what are the things that will push past your breaking points. If you seriously doubt your ability to grow into a marriage with someone with a sexual history, then do not enter that marriage. Invitation to introspection: Why do you think you cannot grow past her sexual history? What about you, about your own sexual history (or lack thereof), and your own beliefs about sex and chastity and virginity and whatever makes you uncertain of your ability to overcome this jealousy or sorrow? If Jane_Doe's example does anything, it shows that a good LDS couple can grow past and around and over and through differences in sexual history. What do you see in yourself that makes this unlikely for you?

Re: 5: Do we have a right to know about their sexual past? Sure we do. If you want to get really excited about knowing everything, Dr. Harley (marriagebuilders.com) likes to promote a "Policy of Radical Honesty" that is about knowing everything there is to know about your spouse, including history. Before you go asking questions, my last invitation to introspection -- what does knowing any of these details change? Is it about certain "lines in the sand" that, if she has crossed them, you will not marry her? Since it sounds like she has probably crossed some of those lines, how does knowing details and how far beyond she went really change your decision? If the details don't really change anything, then don't ask about them. If the details might change something, then identify the details that will make a difference and ask only about those specific details.

[eddified]

Along the lines of MrShorty's most recent comments, think about this: how will knowing the details of her sexual history help you? I'm not sure you will want to know those details, in the long term.

[Latter-Day Marriage]

1.  You both have zero experience with each other, and you both will still have a learning curve.  Even after nearly 30 years of marriage we are still learning. You want to mourn with those who mourn, then mourn with her over her regrets.  Share her burden and don't look at it as a punishment, it is your choice to lift some of the burden she caries off her back.

2.  Elizabeth Smart was raped daily for 9 months while she was a captive.  When she was returned to her family the prophet gave her a blessing and assured her that she was chaste in the eyes of God.  Chastity and virginity are not the same thing.  I know there is a lot of LDS culture that equates them, and it is wrong and you need to overcome that.

Yes, there are consequences to what she did that can't be undone in mortality, or will take time to overcome, but all the eternal consequences are gone.  No matter who you marry, no matter how obedient they were, there will be rough spots.  Marriage is always a work in progress.

Your kids don't need to know anything about her past.  You can both say that you know from experience that keeping the Law of Chasity is a blessing.  There are lots of couple in the church who didn't come to marriage with both of them as virgins and they don't find it a problem to teach their kids what to do.  If she wants to tell them when they are old enough, she can tell them of the negatives she experienced as a result of her disobedience and tell them she knows from experience that it is not worth it.  She can also teach them of the reality of the power of the atonement from personal experience.  

Is this really about teaching your kids though, or is it about you feeling ashamed if somebody finds out your wife's past?  That would be unrighteous pride, thinking that she is not good enough for you because she committed a sin that  you didn't.   You need to really understand the atonement, and understand that you are a sinner too.  Don't you dare look at yourself as somehow being better, purer or more righteous than she is.

3. You need to find that maturity, even if you don't wind up married to her you really need to get your mind and your heart right on these issues.  All parents are imperfect and sinful.  Just because she has a past doesn't mean the two of you can't show you kids how marriage should be and teach them what they need to know, that is a poor excuse.

4.  Yes you have the right to make that choice, but it doesn't make the choice right.  I don't usually come down hard on people, but  IMHO if you left her and this was the only reason, it would reflect very poorly on your character and show that you are not good enough for her.  Purify yourself of your arrogant, self righteous pride, fill your heart with forgiveness and compassion, and then you may be worthy of her.

5.  I think that after a couple is engaged it would be appropriate to discuss their sexual past in detail, not before.  And you shouldn't pop the question to any woman unless you can really believe that when somebody repents of something they are as clean and pure as if it never happened.

[Latter-Day Marriage]

6 minutes ago, eddified said:

Along the lines of MrShorty's most recent comments, think about this: how will knowing the details of her sexual history help you? I'm not sure you will want to know those details, in the long term.

I think an engaged couple should share the details of their sexual past.  They need to know who they are sharing their life with and what shaped them into the person they are, and they need to forgive each other.  Blessed are the couple that come to the alter with nothing hidden and everything forgiven.

[Guest]

10 hours ago, Gazing at essence said:

Before I begin, I feel a sense of urgency in clearly stating from the get go that I understand this is an incredibly sensitive subject, and I am fully aware that there are plenty of people who have experienced the heartbreaking situation I am staring at. To you and also to those of different perspectives, I ask that you take the time to read this post and make an effort to see my trial from both my perspective and from her's (especially those who have walked either side of this road before) and please provide any insight or help that you may feel inclined to offer. Anything will be appreciated.

It is 2:58 in the morning, and I still cannot sleep. I have a job interview tomorrow but that does not worry me really, I am actually looking forward to it. The real reason that my eyes are still open is because I see her and her former boyfriends and I cannot help but wonder the details that would cut the wound in my heart deeper. She called me on the phone a couple of days ago to open up about her sexual history a little bit after I had mentioned my thoughts on and commitment towards the Law of Chastity. Our communication is limited to FaceTime, phone calls, and text right now because we are currently in different countries. She did not tell me the details but she told me enough to where I can make a very good prediction concerning how far she has been with a couple of guys.

Let me rewind: 

From the moment we first met there was an instant connection. Things just felt so different with her. Natural. Calm. Comfortable. I have not felt this strong of a bond with any girl in a long time. And this could of course grow firmer with time. 

I appreciated her honesty in telling me a little bit of her sinful past before things with us get too serious. I have heard horror stories of spouses lying to each other about the depth of their sexual history in order to get married in the temple to their finance, only for the truth to eventually creep its way out and destroy their superficially honest marriage. My prayers go out to people who have been lied to or betrayed in that sense, I cannot even imagine the pain they must experience. How grateful I am to know she trusts me enough to divulge her darker secrets. She did so with a quaking voice and although I could not physically see her face while we talked, I was able to see her crying. She mentioned that she has repented of them and talked with her bishop to overcome these sins. She told me she finds my commitment to the standards of the church beautiful, and she told me she understands if I want to only marry a woman who has been as faithful to the Law of Chastity as I have. I told her thank you multiple times for sharing such private information, and that I would like a little time to just think. And thinking is what I have done, what I am doing right now at this moment, and probably what I will be doing until I come to some sort of conclusion. 

The story of the prodigal son has always been very hard for me to read. I feel like the son who stayed on the farm watching the celebrations from a distance. I have grown up listening to the apostles and following their counsel to the best of my ability. I haven't committed sexual sins (major or minor) even though there have been times when I was tempted. I'll be honest: part of me is wondering why I even tried so hard. Plenty of youth and young adults slip into sexual transgression and then repent and become wonderful teachers of the gospel and bear powerful testimony. All of them talk about how much they have learned and benefited from their mistakes. Like me, do you also think they get the best of both worlds? I do not fully understand the atonement, and maybe that is why I often feel jealous of those who rebel and come back. They experience the pleasure of the world and also know the redeeming love of the gospel at a level I do not. I recognize that this is my own problem and I need to change in this respect, but I cannot help but watch the arrival of my younger brother from a distance and envy the experiences and also the warm welcome home that accompanied his journey. 

Since my earliest recollection, I told myself that I would only marry a woman who has remained pure and virtuous sexually. I passed up opportunities to adventure off sexually and continue to do so with a rooted hope that my future spouse is doing the same. I told myself no matter what that if the woman I was planning on marrying or a woman I was getting very serious with opened up about a sinful sexual past to me, I would thank them for their honesty and walk away. I understand that they could be completely forgiven and clean, and I do not hold the sins against them or judge them. I simply have always wanted to marry a woman who is sexually pure. I loved the Lord even during my trying high school years enough to not walk down those promiscuous roads. There are plenty of great young women in the church who do the exact same thing. If a woman were to approach me and reveal her past like that, I would tell her that if she has repented sincerely that the Lord will not punish her. But I would emphasize that my reason for leaving is not out of anger but out of a loyalty to the sexually pure wife and future I have prepared for since I was a deacon first learning about the Law of Chastity. My father and grandfather both have told me they cannot argue with this desire, and have even applauded me for it. But they also told me that her sexual past should not be that big of a deal to me and that other factors such as her current commitment to the gospel are much more important. Maybe more years will bring me this elevated vision and healthier understanding. For now I still just worry and lament over this spiritual place I am in. I understand that she has fully repented. Is it unfair of me to leave? I think she deserves someone who will see her for the beautiful daughter of God that she is and not worry about her past. What steps do I take next? Is it out of line to ask her the exact details so I know the full picture as well as she can recall? I still really like her and want to continue our relationship, I still feel like we belong together. But is it fair to either of us? Am I wrong to think I deserve someone more sexually pure? Please help me. If you feel comfortable sharing your experiences by all means, please do. 

This is a tough thing to work out, and it is ultimately between you and the Lord regarding whether or not you can emotionally handle this situation - it is not my place to tell you how to feel.  I can, however, share with you my own evolution of thought on the subject, which works for me.

Many years ago, when I was much younger, I would tell myself I would only marry someone who had been virtuous.  This was my thinking for some time, even thoughout my mission.

However, over time, I began to see that life is not as easy as it looks.  I began to see that I have weaknesses - plenty of them.  I began to see that we are all humans in a very difficult situation in mortality, trying our best with what we have.  And sometimes, even the best of us makes mistakes - or even a series of them.  It isn't because we are bad people, it is because we are mortal and we sometimes do things, sometimes out of ignorance, sometimes out of impulse, sometimes even because we think something is a good idea when it turns out not to be.  

This is where the atonement comes in.  

A friend once told me that the atonement is so strong, that if a person did drugs and then repented of the sin, it really is like the person never did drugs to begin with.  My friend made the point (perhaps with some hyperbole involved): If someone asked if this person had done drugs, he could honestly say "no" after repenting.  That is the power of the atonement.  (Please note my friend was illustrating a point as to just how strong the atonement is - he was not endorsing keeping secrets from one's future spouse).

So, my thinking evolved.  I realized, had things been just a little different, it could be me breaking the law of chastity!  I just happened to be in slightly different circumstances where I made other mistakes instead, and that is how my thinking evolved on the matter, and how I became open to the idea of marrying a righteous person, even if they have had to repent of grievous sins in the past.

Now, as it relates to you - I would definitely pray about this.  This would go for anything when deciding whether to marry someone.  If the person had a drinking problem in the past, I would pray about it.  If the person had a gambling problem in the past, I would pray about it.  It never hurts to pray and ask the Lord about your concerns.  The Lord can help steer you right, because only the Lord knows if the relationship between you and this girl is going to work, which is a very complex question in and of itself for just about anyone (e.g., is this girl going to sin in the future?  Will I be able to not let knowledge of past sins taint my relationship?  Will we be able to get along?  and so on and so forth).  

On a side note, I would like to commend the girl for telling you about her past.  That takes some real courage, and says something about her character.  It is also evidence that she has fully repented of whatever sins.  Sometimes, those who have had the experience of sinning and repenting become the absolute most wonderful and righteous people imaginable!  (not to mention amazing spouses!)

Anyways, my thoughts on the subject.  Good luck!

Edited May 26, 2017 by DoctorLemon

[Latter-Day Marriage]

If you do leave her over this, I would recommend you make it very clear that it is because of your current weaknesses, not her past ones.  Don't you dare put it on her and make her feel like she is not good enough for somebody like you, she overcame her issues.

[Guest]

I think I am going to streamline my advice to the original poster:

1) pray to Heavenly Father and ask Him if this girl at issue is someone he should marry.

2)  If Heavenly Father says "yes", marry her, no matter what she had to repent of in the past.

3)  If Heavenly Father says "no", don't marry her, no matter what she had to repent of in the past.

4.)  If you don't get an answer, keep on searching, pondering, and praying until you do get an answer.

You can't go wrong doing what Heavenly Father says!  

Edited May 26, 2017 by DoctorLemon

[askandanswer]

Doctor Lemon has said everything that needs to be said. I was going to quote John 8: 1-11 but there is no need to add anything further to what Doctor Lemon has said. 

[Guest]

For her sake, please be really really honest with yourself. If this is so important and bothersome to you that you can't see yourself letting it go and forgiving her for her past, and making total peace with it, don't burden her with a lifetime of your disappointment. She is clean in God's eyes and deserves to enjoy the fruits of her full repentance, including having a spouse who won't look at her as used chewing gum. 

[Gazing at essence]

@eddified

Thank you for your kind advice. I appreciate your willingness to look at the situation from my perspective as well as her's. 

I have more to update on that I will post after I reply to some of the comments here. I would just like to mention that I think it is wonderful you have such a great relationship with your wife. I spent time in the temple today reading the scriptures that people shared on this page and I feel so much more comfortable and calm already. I am not sure where things will go from here but I feel like I am in control and I am going to sleep tonight.