Can everyone become God?

[Sunday21]

I was reading a post online:https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/9-things-you-should-know-about-mormonism

it seems to be written by a Mormon. I don't think point 9 can be accurate. In point 9, the author states that good Christians cannot enter the highest levels of the Celestial Kingdom. If I understand the author, he/she seems to think that:

1) good Christians will not progress from the lower Celestial Kingdom. I don't think this is true because:

a) I believe that there is progression from the lower to higher kingdoms within the Celestial kingdom.

b) if you are a good Christian, you are going to be living in the millennium so you will have another opportunity to live a more exalted life

c) Its not fair. God is always fair. 

[zil]

@Sunday21, I only read the Celestial Kingdom part of #9 and stopped there because the author is making stuff up, drawing hard lines and making assumptions to a level of detail not currently revealed.

Each person will end up in the kingdom whose laws they have chosen to obey.  That much has been revealed.  There are some vague outlines in scripture about the sort of person who will end up in each kingdom, but people don't seem to understand that they describe the kind of person you are more than the kind of things you have ever done.  I see no reason to worry about nitty-gritty details like so many do - that's not our job, it's the Lord's.

[Sunday21]

@zil. Yes sensible strategy not to worry about the details. But I am the only Mormon that many people in my town have ever met and I have had this question, ie can only Mormons go to heaven or return to God? I think that God will be fair but I wish that I had a reference. 

I think it is a good question, Can only Mormon return to God is a good question to ask.  If an athesist or agnostic is thinking about attending a church or someone is thinking of switching churches, they want to avoid ones not inspired by God. Having been on this journey, myself, I and fellow travelers were searching for a God that they could respect. As many people have said to me, including lay church leaders in Protestant and Catholic faiths, ' I can't worship someone who has lower moral standards than I have'. This is a key point that separates people from their faiths and leads them to go church hopping. Unfortunately, when I meet these people, they reject the lds faith for perceived unfairness: women and blacks & the priesthood. I have never managed to get over this hurdle. I really wish,I could think of a way to overcome this. 

So so you don't think the list is accurate? Yes, I have reread and I see what you mean.

Edited May 27, 2017 by Sunday21

[zil]

7 minutes ago, Sunday21 said:

can only Mormons go to heaven or return to God?

In a sense, yes.  By which we mean that one must accept all the ordinances and covenants, and be the sort of person who keeps them - in other words, one must abide the law of the kingdom in question.  Now that might sound like we're saying a person from [insert some other religion here] cannot go to the Celestial Kingdom, but as you know, we believe in proxy ordinances.  If a person is the sort of person who obeys a Celestial law, then they will, as they are taught, accept the ordinances and keep the covenants, and continue on in being a Celestial sort of person, and be sealed to an eternal spouse, and be exalted in the Celestial Kingdom.  If they're not that sort of person, if they don't accept the teachings, ordinances, and covenants, then they won't.

Another way to say this might be to say that there is only one entrance to the Celestial Kingdom - Jesus Christ.  All must get past him, and the way by which we do so is the same, and he will judge.

Please note that I believe there have been, are, and will be many people who do not find The Church of Jesus Christ in this life (through no fault of their own), but who live the celestial law (as well as a mortal can) and who will ultimately be exalted in the Celestial Kingdom.  I believe there are many Mormons who do/have not and will not.  But the conditions are the same either way, and they are outlined in scripture - all will end up in that kingdom whose laws they choose to live.

[zil]

1 minute ago, zil said:

If a person is the sort of person who obeys a Celestial law, then they will, as they are taught, accept the ordinances and keep the covenants, and continue on in being a Celestial sort of person, and be sealed to an eternal spouse, and be exalted in the Celestial Kingdom.  If they're not that sort of person, if they don't accept the teachings, ordinances, and covenants, then they won't.

...to be perfectly clear: this may happen after mortality for some, perhaps many.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Sunday21 said:

I was reading a post online:https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/9-things-you-should-know-about-mormonism

it seems to be written by a Mormon. I don't think point 9 can be accurate. In point 9, the author states that good Christians cannot enter the highest levels of the Celestial Kingdom. If I understand the author, he/she seems to think that:

1) good Christians will not progress from the lower Celestial Kingdom. I don't think this is true because:

a) I believe that there is progression from the lower to higher kingdoms within the Celestial kingdom.

b) if you are a good Christian, you are going to be living in the millennium so you will have another opportunity to live a more exalted life

c) Its not fair. God is always fair. 

Thanks to temple work for the dead, I believe many who were evangelicals, Catholics, Muslims, and others in this life will wind up exalted.  I mean, that is kind of the point of doing work for the dead. . .

That said, I believe your chances individually for being exalted go way up if you become a Mormon, because the Church teaches you how to become someone worthy for the Celestial Kingdom.

However, it isn't over until final judgment, and work for the dead is going to (in my opinion) result in many non-Mormons being funneled into the Celestial Kingdom.  So who are we to say that exaltation is off limits for non-Mormons?

 

Edited May 27, 2017 by DoctorLemon

[Guest]

I also think those who are good people who are kept from Mormonism only because they have problems with, for example, Church history, may be much more receptive to the gospel in the next life, especially when they realize they are neither in heaven nor outer darkness after coming to at death.  This is why temple work is so important!  

That said, while I believe work for the dead will funnel people to the Celestial Kingdom, it is not supposed to short circuit doing things the right way (ordinances in this life).  If you are a member of another religion, please do not rely on work for the dead as an excuse not to become a Mormon, as you risk slipping into the still excellent but slightly less so Terrestrial Kingdom.

Moreover, there are a lot of people out there who are not on the path towards righteousness at all (e.g., abusive husbands, drug dealers, etc.)  These are people dying in their sins (as opposed to repenting but dying with some doctrinal misunderstandings).  I fear that they risk missing the Celestial Kingdom (or even the Terrestrial Kingdom) by a long shot unless they change their ways.  But again, only God can judge.

My advice for life:

1.  Mormons, be the best Mormons you can be.

2.  Other religions: be the best Jew, Muslim, or whatever you can be.  If you find out that Mormonism is true, then for goodness sake get baptized!  Right now!

Edited May 27, 2017 by DoctorLemon

[Sunday21]

@DoctorLemon. Thank you. Your explanations are clear and helpful! What is your opinion of members of other religions who behave badly, lie and steal, because they feel that death bed repentance will save them? This Liebig and stealing is a sore point in my religion because in my profession, a great deal of damage is done by those who lie and steal. In fact, children have died as a result of this behaviour.

[zil]

@Sunday21, it doesn't matter what religion you are, you have the Light of Christ. Something in you tells you righter from wronger¹.  Those who choose to move toward wrong will end up in a lesser kingdom; those who continually move toward right will end up in a higher kingdom.

¹ I use "righter" and "wronger" because "right" for a drug dealer is different from "right" for a saint.  Both are in the same direction, but the "right" thing for a drug dealer to do might still be sin, especially for someone closer to God, but it's still more right than other choices the drug dealer could make.  But regardless of your understanding of right and wrong, and where you are along that path, the Light of Christ still tells you which direction to go.  (Does that make sense?)

[Sunday21]

12 minutes ago, zil said:

@Sunday21, it doesn't matter what religion you are, you have the Light of Christ. Something in you tells you righter from wronger¹.  Those who choose to move toward wrong will end up in a lesser kingdom; those who continually move toward right will end up in a higher kingdom.

¹ I use "righter" and "wronger" because "right" for a drug dealer is different from "right" for a saint.  Both are in the same direction, but the "right" thing for a drug dealer to do might still be sin, especially for someone closer to God, but it's still more right than other choices the drug dealer could make.  But regardless of your understanding of right and wrong, and where you are along that path, the Light of Christ still tells you which direction to go.  (Does that make sense?)

@zil. Thank you! 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Sunday21 said:

@DoctorLemon. Thank you. Your explanations are clear and helpful! What is your opinion of members of other religions who behave badly, lie and steal, because they feel that death bed repentance will save them? This Liebig and stealing is a sore point in my religion because in my profession, a great deal of damage is done by those who lie and steal. In fact, children have died as a result of this behaviour.

I would say members of these other religions are playing a very dangerous game, because they know better.  They are breaking the portion of the law that they have received.

I think God will be lenient towards those who are honestly trying to be good people and maybe believe some doctrine that is not quite correct.  I also believe God will be lenient towards those who sin because they honestly do not know any better (e.g. the nonmember who drinks beer).  However, I think God will be less inclined to be lenient towards those who know something is wrong and do it anyways (e.g. the Christian who steals).  Also, there are sins that everyone instinctually knows are wrong, which I believe God will be less lenient towards (e.g. murder).

Your associates are not being the best Christians or Muslims or whatever religion when they lie and steal, and what is worse, they sound like they should know better.  What they are doing is not in their best eternal interests.

Edited May 27, 2017 by DoctorLemon

[Sunday21]

@DoctorLemon. Thank you. This is comforting!

[Rob Osborn]

Just remember- no one can be saved in their sins. All will have to repent fully from all sin to be saved from hell.

[Guest]

@Sunday21

If Mormons are the only people who can attain the Celestial Kingdom, why do we do temple ordinances for the dead?

[Sunday21]

26 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

@Sunday21

If Mormons are the only people who can attain the Celestial Kingdom, why do we do temple ordinances for the dead?

True! You can only have a spouse in the celestial kingdom. Therefore if I seal two Catholics together, that would be pointless if Catholics can't go to the celestial kingdom.

[Ironhold]

No, the article was not written by anyone affiliated with the church. 

The Gospel Coalition is a website meant to support and promote Protestantism, particularly "Evangelical" Protestantism. As such, virtually all of the material that they present or link to is written by Protestants for Protestants. In cases like the aforementioned article, errors are common and bias shows up as well. If you read the comments, you'll see that I'm one of several members of the church trying to correct the author on matters; the article you see now actually went through a series of revisions as the author was forced to admit that he dun goofed. 

A lot of the users of TGC aren't keen on us, and so whenever we try to comment on matters they get rather vocal. At one point they even accused the church of maintaining some sort of alert system so that we members could raid the comments of any article the church didn't like. They couldn't understand the concept of "word of mouth" being enough to let folks know what's going on and who's saying what. 

I do try to check TGC daily, if only to ensure that they're not off spouting nonsense again. 

[bytebear]

I don't like the term "Mormons" when talking about celestial glory.  Yes, right now the people commonly called Mormons have the priesthood authority to baptize, but anyone who is baptized and accepts the covenant made will gain celestial glory.  This includes Mormons, Nephites, 1st Century Christians, Adam, and other Old Testament people, and everyone who has had their temple work done and accepted it on the other side of the veil.  Everyone is given the opportunity, and some will live up to the requirements, and others will not.  But baptism is the strait and narrow gate, and there will be few who find it.

Matt 7:14 (look specifically at the footnotes of "gate")
14 Because ^astrait is the ^bgate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto ^clife, and few there be that find it.

And of course the same goes for all temple ordinances and blessings.

Edited May 28, 2017 by bytebear

[CV75]

On 5/27/2017 at 8:36 AM, Sunday21 said:

I was reading a post online:https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/9-things-you-should-know-about-mormonism

it seems to be written by a Mormon. I don't think point 9 can be accurate. In point 9, the author states that good Christians cannot enter the highest levels of the Celestial Kingdom. If I understand the author, he/she seems to think that:

1) good Christians will not progress from the lower Celestial Kingdom. I don't think this is true because:

a) I believe that there is progression from the lower to higher kingdoms within the Celestial kingdom.

b) if you are a good Christian, you are going to be living in the millennium so you will have another opportunity to live a more exalted life

c) Its not fair. God is always fair. 

I think that we are not resurrected until we have been offered and made choices based on every opportunity to receive all the intelligence and knowledge the Lord has in store us to receive in this life or the spirit world. There is another thread about D&C 130:19 that touches on this (
https://mormonhub.com/forums/topic/61876-celestial-kingdom-and-exaltation/ ). For this reason, some are raised sooner (first resurrection) than others (last resurrection).

 

[Anddenex]

On 5/27/2017 at 6:36 AM, Sunday21 said:

1) good Christians will not progress from the lower Celestial Kingdom. I don't think this is true because:

a) I believe that there is progression from the lower to higher kingdoms within the Celestial kingdom.

b) if you are a good Christian, you are going to be living in the millennium so you will have another opportunity to live a more exalted life

c) Its not fair. God is always fair. 

a) This is a personal interpretation similar to the author. There is clear evidence from scripture that there is no "increase" for individuals who did not choose to marry. Doctrine & Covenants 131: 4, "He may enter into the other, but that is the end of his kingdom; he cannot have an increase." (emphasis added). There isn't any doctrine specifying progression within the Celestial kingdom. I understand there are members which believe this is possible.

b) Living during the Millenium is different than what the author is suggesting. The author is emphasizing after death. Good Christian and single Mormon are mentioned; however, this is personal interpretation. God is perfectly just and merciful and will take into account every option. Single Mormons probably stems from D&C 131: 1-4, but is overly simplistic because there are good single women, possibly men, who may not have had the opportunity in this life and no blessing we are told is withheld. So to lump with "all" single Mormons isn't correct. A "good" Christian who rejects the gospel in this life, but receives it in the next will receive, at most, Terrestial glory. I like scriptural use of the term "honorable men" rather than "good" people or Christian.

c) This is the same argument Atheists use when referring to "hell" being for eternity. It isn't fair. God's thoughts are higher than our thoughts, and his ways higher than our ways. Yes, a lack of progression within the Celestial kingdom can indeed be fair -- fortunately, I am not the judge but God is and he is perfectly fair (either way).

Celestial Glory Breakdown from Article:

1) The highest level of the celestial heavenly kingdom is for (married) Mormons who have kept all the Celestial laws and commandments (this is what they refer to by “eternal life”).

True except for the word "Mormon". Baptism for the dead, and in light of those who died without knowledge, can also be exalted (receive all the Father hath). Many non-Mormons will achieve exaltation, Mormon has only been a word for a couple centuries. Better said, only those who have accepted Christ, valiant in their testimony, shall be exalted (including those who would have accepted it in this life).

2) The lower celestial kingdom is for single Mormons who lived a worthy life and good people (including Christians) who didn't have a chance on earth to hear about and accept Mormonism. People in this lower group cannot become gods.

Single Mormons as previously stated is too general, and not true in totality. There is truth according to D&C 131:4 (this must be seen in the context of other statements specifying no blessing will be withheld from the righteous). I don't believe their will be any progression within the Celestial kingdom, nor from Telestial to Terrestial and Terrestial to Celestial. Haven't read any scripture that alludes to this. God is still fair.

Terrestrial Glory Breakdown from Article:

1) The terrestrial kingdom is for unworthy Mormons and good people who knew about Mormonism on earth but rejected it until after their death. I, personally, don't like his term "unworthy", the scriptures terminology appears to be better. "Who received not the testimony of Jesus in the flesh, but afterwards received it. These are they who are honorable men of the earth, who were blinded by the craftiness of men. These are they who receive of his glory, but not of his fulness... These are they who are not valiant in the testimony of Jesus" (Section 76) The scriptures do not differentiate between "unworthy Mormons", "good people," etc...

[Traveler]

On ‎5‎/‎27‎/‎2017 at 6:36 AM, Sunday21 said:

I was reading a post online:https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/9-things-you-should-know-about-mormonism

it seems to be written by a Mormon. I don't think point 9 can be accurate. In point 9, the author states that good Christians cannot enter the highest levels of the Celestial Kingdom. If I understand the author, he/she seems to think that:

1) good Christians will not progress from the lower Celestial Kingdom. I don't think this is true because:

a) I believe that there is progression from the lower to higher kingdoms within the Celestial kingdom.

b) if you are a good Christian, you are going to be living in the millennium so you will have another opportunity to live a more exalted life

c) Its not fair. God is always fair. 

 

I see no reason to believe that after billions of years that someone in a moment will suddenly decide to do something that have always had to ability to work to achieve but have consistently refused to do.  I believe that anything of worth and value is a discipline that requires desire and drive to accomplish and master.    I just do not think someone can think to do in a moment that others of the same ability have perfected and mastered in an eternity.

 

The Traveler

[Sunday21]

45 minutes ago, Traveler said:

 

I see no reason to believe that after billions of years that someone in a moment will suddenly decide to do something that have always had to ability to work to achieve but have consistently refused to do.  I believe that anything of worth and value is a discipline that requires desire and drive to accomplish and master.    I just do not think someone can think to do in a moment that others of the same ability have perfected and mastered in an eternity.

 

The Traveler

I am not sure if I understand your meaning. Let me take a run at this.

I am a convert to the lds faith. At one time, I did not "get" the law of Chasity. Now I do.

How long did it take me to decide to obey the LOC? About 30 seconds. It was explained to me. I said. "Yes sir. I will obey. No problem." If Mormons had been loose with this commandment as many forms of Christianity are, I would not be living the LOC.

 So I think that someone could decide to obey commandments after death. For example, I have many colleagues who lie and steal. This is allowed in their religion because they have death bed repentance. How do I know this? They teach at their church and they lie and steal. So I am guessing that their behavior is molded by death bed repentance. I think if someone they believed in, like a priest explained to them that death bed repentance will not allow you to lie and steal, they would stop. So their behavior would change.

[Traveler]

1 hour ago, Sunday21 said:

I am not sure if I understand your meaning. Let me take a run at this.

I am a convert to the lds faith. At one time, I did not "get" the law of Chasity. Now I do.

How long did it take me to decide to obey the LOC? About 30 seconds. It was explained to me. I said. "Yes sir. I will obey. No problem." If Mormons had been loose with this commandment as many forms of Christianity are, I would not be living the LOC.

 So I think that someone could decide to obey commandments after death. For example, I have many colleagues who lie and steal. This is allowed in their religion because they have death bed repentance. How do I know this? They teach at their church and they lie and steal. So I am guessing that their behavior is molded by death bed repentance. I think if someone they believed in, like a priest explained to them that death bed repentance will not allow you to lie and steal, they would stop. So their behavior would change.

 

Let me try to clarify my position a little better with perhaps a slightly different slant.   It is my observation that any attempt to judge, explain, define or understand anything or anybody exclusively between the parameters of birth and death is unjustifiable.    For example, to say justice exist and is validated with all we know or can learn of any person(s) between their birth and death is a statement of pure unmitigated ignorance and stupidly.   

 

The Traveler

[Sunday21]

@Traveler. So you believe that in order to judge someone's nature, one needs to observe them for longer than the period of time associated with their lifespan? More data required? 

[Traveler]

15 hours ago, Sunday21 said:

@Traveler. So you believe that in order to judge someone's nature, one needs to observe them for longer than the period of time associated with their lifespan? More data required? 

 

Absolutely – and that includes ourselves.   And I would say that it includes everything about them – for example --- how good looking we think they are.

 

The Traveler

[Rob Osborn]

18 hours ago, Traveler said:

 

Let me try to clarify my position a little better with perhaps a slightly different slant.   It is my observation that any attempt to judge, explain, define or understand anything or anybody exclusively between the parameters of birth and death is unjustifiable.    For example, to say justice exist and is validated with all we know or can learn of any person(s) between their birth and death is a statement of pure unmitigated ignorance and stupidly.   

 

The Traveler

I would go so far to say that pretty much no one proves themselves ready or worthy for celestial glory in mortality.