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    • Heather

      Mormon Hub Rules - Please be familiar with these rules before posting   04/17/08

        Any views expressed on Mormon Hub are independent of and do not represent the views of Mormon Hub, More Good Foundation, or Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Site Rules 1. Do not post, upload, or otherwise submit anything to the site that is derogatory towards The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, its teachings, or its leaders. Anti-LDS Propaganda will not be tolerated anywhere. 2. Please be conscious of the fact that although Mormon Hub is aimed towards an LDS audience, that the membership of this site consists of friends from an array of different backgrounds, beliefs, and cultures. Please be respectful and courteous to all, and know that everyone who is willing to follow the Rules and Terms of Mormon Hub are welcome to participate and be a member of Mormon Hub. Keep in mind that anything posted, uploaded, or otherwise displayed on the site should be understandable to friends of other faiths as well as to members. Please define any LDS vocabulary that friends of other faiths may not understand (i.e. Mutual, Relief Society, and Deacon.) 3. Personal attacks, name calling, flaming, and judgments against other members will not be tolerated. 4. No bickering and nit-picking toward others. Realize that sometimes it is very difficult to be able to express how one feels through written words. Please be courteous and ask for a further explanation, rather then trying to attack and find holes in someone else's post. 5. No cursing or crude language. Any swearing, including filter skipping, will result in an automatic one week suspension. 6. Posting issues you have with a moderator or administrator anywhere on the site will not be allowed. Please follow the chain of authority if you have any concerns. Any such posts will be removed and the poster will be subject to the consequences of breaking the rules. List of site moderators Course of action that should be taken if you have a concern: - Send a message directly to the moderator you have a concern about. If you are unable to work out the problem then, - Send a message to the head moderators. - If after you have approached both avenues, you may then send a message to Heather; however know that Heather is very unlikely to over rule anything that has been sanctioned by the moderators and head moderators. 7. Multiple accounts are not allowed and will result in all accounts being banned from the site. 8. Please do not share any "true" or "faith promoting" stories, unless you can verify the source. 9. Do not post any copyrighted material, unless the copyright is owned by you. 10. Bigoted/racial/ethnic comments will not be tolerated. Political Neutrality Policy More Good Foundation, as a nonprofit foundation, must remain neutral with respect to partisan politics and candidate campaigns for public office. The foundation encourages its members and staff to be informed about political issues and to be engaged in civic life; however, it does not endorse or oppose any political parties, candidates, or platforms. Mormon Hub will allow political discussion, also long as all posts remain neutral with respect to partisan politics and candidate campaigns for public office. You may not use the site to show support, endorse, oppose or sanction any candidate. In addition, all posts must be respectful and sensitive to readers of all political beliefs and backgrounds. Any post that violates any of the above conditions will be dealt with according to the consequences of breaking the rules. As a non-profit organization, 501©3, we are governed by legal constraints relative to writing, blogging, or otherwise endorsing any candidate running for political office. The law states, in effect, that no one acting on behalf of the nonprofit can intervene directly or indirectly in the election process by endorsing a political candidate. Any post that speaks favorably about one candidate, even in a religious context, can be construed as indirect intervention in the election process. While journalists are presently exempt from this provision, bloggers and forum-members are not. 12. You agree, through your use of this service, that you will not use this site to post any material which is knowingly false and/or defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, sexually oriented, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy, or otherwise in violation of any law. 13. You will not use this site to solicit the sale of any product, service or website. You will not use this site to promote a money making venture or contest. If appropriate, you may post a link to your personal website or to your business on your profile, in your forum signature, and you make create one post in the web link section of the forum. Do not post any link or discuss any business, service, or website that violates any rule of Mormon Hub. Mormon Hub is not responsible for the content of any site linked on Mormon Hub. Consequences to these rules could result in the following, and are determined on a case by case basis. Anything that an Administrator or Moderator determines is more than just an infraction of the rules, will result in immediate banning from the site and/or legal action: First infraction will result in a warning and a message from a moderator on what rule was broken. Second infraction will result in a one week suspension followed by a two week moderator post approval Third infraction will result in banned from the site for good. Any topic, message, video, music, image, or other upload or submission to the site that breaks any rules will be deleted. Please remember that we are not responsible for anything posted or uploaded. We do not vouch for or warrant the accuracy, completeness or usefulness of any message or upload. We are not responsible for the contents of any message, video, image, post or upload. The messages express the views of the author of the message, not necessarily the views of Mormon Hub , More Good Foundation, or The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Any user who feels that a posted message is objectionable is encouraged to contact the Administration immediately by Private Message, Email, or Report a Post. We will make every effort to remove objectionable messages and uploads within a reasonable time frame, if we determine that removal is necessary. Mormon Hub Terms of Use Agreement January 8, 2008 Mormon Hub is a social networking service that allows Members to create unique personal profiles online in order to find and communicate with old and new friends. Mormon Hub refers to "Mormon Hub or its proprietors." The services offered by Mormon Hub ("Mormon Hub" or "we") include the Mormon Hub website (the "Mormon Hub Website"), the Mormon Hub Internet messaging service, and any other features, content, or applications offered from time to time by Mormon Hub in connection with the Mormon Hub Website (collectively, the "Mormon Hub Services"). The Mormon Hub Services are hosted in the U.S. This Terms of Use Agreement ("Agreement") sets forth the legally binding terms for your use of the Mormon Hub Services. By using the Mormon Hub Services, you agree to be bound by this Agreement, whether you are a "Visitor" (which means that you simply browse the Mormon Hub Website) or you are a "Member" (which means that you have registered with Mormon Hub). The term "User" refers to a Visitor or a Member. You are only authorized to use the Mormon Hub Services (regardless of whether your access or use is intended) if you agree to abide by all applicable laws and to this Agreement. Please read this Agreement carefully and save it. If you do not agree with it, you should leave the Mormon Hub Website and discontinue use of the Mormon Hub Services immediately. If you wish to become a Member, communicate with other Members and make use of the Mormon Hub Services, you must read this Agreement and indicate your acceptance during the Registration process. This Agreement includes Mormon Hub's policy for acceptable use of the Mormon Hub Services and Content posted on the Mormon Hub Website, your rights, obligations and restrictions regarding your use of the Mormon Hub Services and Mormon Hub's Privacy Policy. In order to participate in certain Mormon Hub Services, you may be notified that you are required to download software or content and/or agree to additional terms and conditions. Unless otherwise provided by the additional terms and conditions applicable to the Mormon Hub Services in which you choose to participate, those additional terms are hereby incorporated into this Agreement.  Mormon Hub may modify this Agreement from time to time and such modification shall be effective upon posting by Mormon Hub on the Mormon Hub Website. You agree to be bound to any changes to this Agreement when you use the Mormon Hub Services after any such modification is posted. It is therefore important that you review this Agreement regularly to ensure you are updated as to any changes. Please choose carefully the information you post on Mormon Hub and that you provide to other Users. You may NOT include any of the following information anywhere on Mormon Hub, including private messages: telephone numbers, street addresses, last names, and any photographs containing nudity, or obscene, lewd, excessively violent, harassing, sexually explicit or otherwise objectionable subject matter. Email addresses should NEVER be posted to the general public. Despite this prohibition, information provided by other Mormon Hub Members (for instance, in their Profile) may contain inaccurate, inappropriate, offensive or sexually explicit material, products or services, and Mormon Hub assumes no responsibility or liability for this material. If you become aware of misuse of the Mormon Hub Services by any person, please contact Mormon Hub or click on the "Report Inappropriate Content" link at the bottom of any Mormon Hub page. Mormon Hub reserves the right, in its sole discretion, to moderate, reject, refuse to post or remove any posting (including private messages) by you, or to restrict, suspend, or terminate your access to all or any part of the Mormon Hub Services at any time, for any or no reason, with or without prior notice, and without liability. Mormon Hub expressly reserves the right to remove your profile and/or restrict, suspend, or terminate your access to any part of Mormon Hub Services if Mormon Hub determines, in its sole discretion, that you pose a threat to Mormon Hub and/or its Users. Mormon Hub reserves the right to ask a member to change their username if it is found to be offensive or can be perceived as offensive. Due to the sacredness, this would include any usernames that include, Jesus, Christ, God, Lord, names of Prophets, General authorities etc. The names of personal or business websites, blogs, etc. to promote said sites is also prohibited. Using names of political figures or party affiliation is also prohibited. 1. Eligibility. Use of and Membership in the Mormon Hub Services is void where prohibited. By using the Mormon Hub Services, you represent and warrant that (a) all registration information you submit is truthful and accurate; ( B) you will maintain the accuracy of such information; © you are 14 years of age or older; and (d) your use of the Mormon Hub Services does not violate any applicable law or regulation. Your profile may be deleted and your Membership may be terminated without warning, if we believe that you are under 13 years of age. 2. Term. This Agreement shall remain in full force and effect while you use the Mormon Hub Services or are a Member. You may terminate your Membership at any time, for any reason, emailing an admin. Mormon Hub may terminate your Membership at any time, without warning. Even after Membership is terminated, this Agreement will remain in effect, including sections 5-17. 3. Password. When you sign up to become a Member, you will also be asked to choose a password. You are entirely responsible for maintaining the confidentiality of your password. You agree not to use the account, username, or password of another Member at any time or to disclose your password to any third party. You agree to notify Mormon Hub immediately if you suspect any unauthorized use of your account or access to your password. You are solely responsible for any and all use of your account. 4. Non-commercial Use by Members. The Mormon Hub Services are for the personal use of Members only and may not be used in connection with any commercial endeavors except those that are specifically endorsed or approved by Mormon Hub. Illegal and/or unauthorized use of the Mormon Hub Services, including collecting usernames and/or email addresses of Members by electronic or other means for the purpose of sending unsolicited email or unauthorized framing of or linking to the Mormon Hub Website is prohibited. Commercial advertisements, affiliate links, and other forms of solicitation may be removed from Member profiles without notice and may result in termination of Membership privileges. Appropriate legal action will be taken for any illegal or unauthorized use of the Mormon Hub Services. 5. Proprietary Rights in Content on Mormon Hub. Mormon Hub does not claim any ownership rights in the text, files, images, photos, video, sounds, musical works, works of authorship, or any other materials (collectively, "Content") that you post to the Mormon Hub Services. After posting your Content to the Mormon Hub Services, you continue to retain all ownership rights in such Content, and you continue to have the right to use your Content in any way you choose. By displaying or publishing ("posting") any Content on or through the Mormon Hub Services, you hereby grant to Mormon Hub a limited license to use, modify, publicly perform, publicly display, reproduce, and distribute such Content solely on and through the Mormon Hub Services.
      Without this license, Mormon Hub would be unable to provide the Mormon Hub Services. For example, without the right to modify Member Content, Mormon Hub would not be able to digitally compress music files that Members submit or otherwise format Content to satisfy technical requirements, and without the right to publicly perform Member Content, Mormon Hub could not allow Users to listen to music posted by Members. The license you grant to Mormon Hub is non-exclusive (meaning you are free to license your Content to anyone else in addition to Mormon Hub), fully-paid and royalty-free (meaning that Mormon Hub is not required to pay you for the use on the Mormon Hub Services of the Content that you post), sublicensable (so that Mormon Hub is able to use its affiliates and subcontractors such as Internet content delivery networks to provide the Mormon Hub Services), and worldwide (because the Internet and the Mormon Hub Services are global in reach). This license will terminate at the time you remove your Content from the Mormon Hub Services. The license does not grant Mormon Hub the right to sell your Content, nor does the license grant Mormon Hub the right to distribute your Content outside of the Mormon Hub Services. You represent and warrant that: (i) you own the Content posted by you on or through the Mormon Hub Services or otherwise have the right to grant the license set forth in this section, and (ii) the posting of your Content on or through the Mormon Hub Services does not violate the privacy rights, publicity rights, copyrights, contract rights or any other rights of any person. You agree to pay for all royalties, fees, and any other monies owing any person by reason of any Content posted by you to or through the LDS.Mormon Hub Services. The Mormon Hub Services contain Content of Mormon Hub ("Mormon Hub Content"). 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Mormon Hub assumes no responsibility for monitoring the Mormon Hub Services for inappropriate Content or conduct. If at any time Mormon Hub chooses, in its sole discretion, to monitor the Mormon Hub Services, Mormon Hub nonetheless assumes no responsibility for the Content, no obligation to modify or remove any inappropriate Content, and no responsibility for the conduct of the User submitting any such Content. You are solely responsible for the Content that you post on or through any of the Mormon Hub Services, and any material or information that you transmit to other Members and for your interactions with other Users. Mormon Hub does not endorse and has no control over the Content. Content is not necessarily reviewed by Mormon Hub prior to posting and does not necessarily reflect the opinions or policies of Mormon Hub. Mormon Hub makes no warranties, express or implied, as to the Content or to the accuracy and reliability of the Content or any material or information that you transmit to other Members.   7. Content/Activity Prohibited. The following is a partial list of the kind of Content that is illegal or prohibited to post on or through the Mormon Hub Services.Mormon Hub reserves the right to investigate and take appropriate legal action against anyone who, in Mormon Hub's sole discretion, violates this provision, including without limitation, removing the offending communication from the Mormon Hub Services and terminating the Membership of such violators. Prohibited Content includes, but is not limited to Content that, in the sole discretion of Mormon Hub: is patently offensive and promotes racism, bigotry, hatred or physical harm of any kind against any group or individual; harasses or advocates harassment of another person; exploits people in a sexual or violent manner; contains nudity, violence, or offensive subject matter or contains a link to an adult website; solicits personal information from anyone; provides any telephone numbers, street addresses, last names, URLs or email addresses; promotes information that you know is false or misleading or promotes illegal activities or conduct that is abusive, threatening, obscene, defamatory or libelous; promotes an illegal or unauthorized copy of another person's copyrighted work, such as providing pirated computer programs or links to them, providing information to circumvent manufacture-installed copy-protect devices, or providing pirated music or links to pirated music files; involves the transmission of "junk mail," "chain letters," or unsolicited mass mailing, instant messaging, "spimming," or "spamming"; contains restricted or password only access pages or hidden pages or images (those not linked to or from another accessible page); furthers or promotes any criminal activity or enterprise or provides instructional information about illegal activities including, but not limited to making or buying illegal weapons, violating someone's privacy, or providing or creating computer viruses; solicits passwords or personal identifying information for commercial or unlawful purposes from other Users; involves commercial activities and/or sales without our prior written consent such as contests, sweepstakes, barter, advertising, or pyramid schemes; includes a photograph of another person that you have posted without that person's consent; or uses sexually suggestive imagery or any other unfair, misleading or deceptive Content intended to draw traffic to the profile.
      The following is a partial list of the kind of activity that is illegal or prohibited on the Mormon Hub Website and through your use of the Mormon Hub Services. Mormon Hub reserves the right to investigate and take appropriate legal action against anyone who, in Mormon Hub's sole discretion, violates this provision, including without limitation, reporting you to law enforcement authorities. Prohibited activity includes, but is not limited to: criminal or tortuous activity, including child pornography, fraud, trafficking in obscene material, drug dealing, gambling, harassment, stalking, spamming, spimming, sending of viruses or other harmful files, copyright infringement, patent infringement, or theft of trade secrets; advertising to, or solicitation of, any Member to buy or sell any products or services through the Mormon Hub Services. You may not transmit any chain letters or junk email to other Members. It is also a violation of these rules to use any information obtained from the Mormon Hub Services in order to contact, advertise to, solicit, or sell to any Member without their prior explicit consent. In order to protect our Members from such advertising or solicitation, Mormon Hub reserves the right to restrict the number of emails which a Member may send to other Members in any 24-hour period to a number which Mormon Hub deems appropriate in its sole discretion. If you breach this Agreement and send unsolicited bulk email, instant messages or other unsolicited communications of any kind through the Mormon Hub Services, you acknowledge that you will have caused substantial harm to Mormon Hub, but that the amount of such harm would be extremely difficult to ascertain. 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    • rpframe

      IMPORTANT!! -- Login Issues   09/12/17

      TL;DR; In order to fix login issues, a lot of people will have to reset their password. As of now, if you are unable to login, please attempt a "Forgot Password"/"Password Reset" (check your spam folder) and if that doesn't work then feel free to Contact Us, for help and please check back on this post for any status updates and FAQs as we go through this process. FAQ:
      [Reserved Space]
      Firstly, I'd like to apologize on behalf of MormonHub for the frustration of the login system. There is a lot of cool things we could do with the login system, and having the logins synced up between our forum system and our front end system has been nice, but for multiple reasons (not just the current login issues), we have decided to move back to the earlier login system. While I would love to be able to migrate everyone's current passwords back, but the systems are just not compatible that way. So a large number of users will need to do a password reset. We realize that we forced everyone to do this on the move to the new system, and we sincerely apologize to everyone that will have to do it again. The Login System has now been swapped over. Give us a little bit of time to work out kinks in the system (will post updates here). If you are unable to login anymore, then please perform a password reset (check spam folder) and if that fails and we don't have any acknowledgement of problems on this post (No known problems at this time), then feel free to contact us (keeping in mind that there are a lot of you and very few of us).
Traveler

The Great Plan of Salvation vs Principles & Doctrine

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Is there any difference between the principles & Doctrines of truth and the Great Plan of Salvation?  Are there doctrines taught in the truth that do not apply to the Great Plan of Salvation?  Is there a truth that is not part of the Great Plan of Salvation?

Often, I hear someone imply that they are not interested in determining the truth of something because it is not necessary for their salvation.  I this a morally correct approach for understanding the Great Plan of Salvation as well as determining the value of truths?

 

The Traveler

Edited by Traveler

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2 hours ago, Traveler said:

 

Is there any difference between the principles & Doctrines of truth and the Great Plan of Salvation?  Are there doctrines taught in the truth that do not apply to the Great Plan of Salvation?  Is there a truth that is not part of the Great Plan of Salvation?

Often, I hear someone imply that they are not interested in determining the truth of something because it is not necessary for their salvation.  I this a morally correct approach for understanding the Great Plan of Salvation as well as determining the value of truths?

 

The Traveler

I think there are multiple layers here. Ultimately all truth comes back to, or is traced to, God and everything he does to bring about his work and glory. What may be like the first layer is basic salvation from hell. Whether we enter into polygamy or not is one of those things that the knowledge of isnt required to be saved from hell. The next layer may be something like what is required to know to living on the earth with Christ during the millennium. Will we have to be perfect or what level of perfection maybe isnt the required knowledge for gaining entrance upon the earth to rule and reign with Christ for the thousand years.

Beyond those layers, or perhaps before we can even understand such, is how we apply what we know to be judged on whether its really true or not. There is no doubt in my study and contemplation that some of the very basic teachings regarding the plan of salvation that we teach in church from our manuals just arent true. So, where does that leave us as a whole church? God isnt going to adapt or change the laws just because we have misunderstood the gospel or lack the real truth.

 

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6 hours ago, Traveler said:

Is there any difference between the principles & Doctrines of truth and the Great Plan of Salvation?  Are there doctrines taught in the truth that do not apply to the Great Plan of Salvation?  Is there a truth that is not part of the Great Plan of Salvation?

Often, I hear someone imply that they are not interested in determining the truth of something because it is not necessary for their salvation.  I this a morally correct approach for understanding the Great Plan of Salvation as well as determining the value of truths?

The Traveler

I see it as the Plan, the Execution, and the Realization of Salvation/Happiness. For example, the plan is laid out in Abraham 3; the execution is being able to say, "And it came to pass that we lived after the manner of happiness" and the realization is described in the scriptures about exaltation. Of course the execution and realization were envisioned as part of the plan and carry the very same principles, doctrines and truths as the plan. So the only difference is in the application and context of the principles, doctrines and truths in the pre-mortal, mortal, and post-mortal spheres, and not in the principles, doctrines and truths themselves.

Baptism is a great example. It was instituted while we were yet spirits, yet can only be performed in the flesh, by oneself or by proxy (D&C 124). The priesthood is another: it was given in a preparatory sense and also in the flesh (Alma 13), and also by proxy.

I sometimes think people conflate facts and information with truth. Some facts and information are not necessary for our salvation, and the spirit will guide us in that, or at least help us tell the difference and keep things in perspective.  It is one thing to know about God and His ways, and another to know God and His ways. Sometimes the difference is subtle and sometimes they go together, and sometimes one leads to the other, but it is always good to approach these things as a little child and discuss them with a spirit of charity and not the spirit of contention, which I take to be the moral and ethical standard for the Gospel.

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7 hours ago, Traveler said:

Is there a truth that is not part of the Great Plan of Salvation?

Often, I hear someone imply that they are not interested in determining the truth of something because it is not necessary for their salvation.  I this a morally correct approach for understanding the Great Plan of Salvation as well as determining the value of truths?

"One important implication of what we have been discussing is that all knowledge is not of equal significance. There is no democracy of facts! They are not of equal importance. Something might be factual, but not be important. For instance, today I wear a dark blue suit. That is true, but it is unimportant. As, more and more, we brush against truth, we sense that it has a hierarchy of importance. Some truths are salvationally significant and others are not."  -Neal A. Maxwell

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1993/04/the-inexhaustible-gospel?lang=eng

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23 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

I think there are multiple layers here. Ultimately all truth comes back to, or is traced to, God and everything he does to bring about his work and glory. What may be like the first layer is basic salvation from hell. Whether we enter into polygamy or not is one of those things that the knowledge of isnt required to be saved from hell. The next layer may be something like what is required to know to living on the earth with Christ during the millennium. Will we have to be perfect or what level of perfection maybe isnt the required knowledge for gaining entrance upon the earth to rule and reign with Christ for the thousand years.

Beyond those layers, or perhaps before we can even understand such, is how we apply what we know to be judged on whether its really true or not. There is no doubt in my study and contemplation that some of the very basic teachings regarding the plan of salvation that we teach in church from our manuals just arent true. So, where does that leave us as a whole church? God isnt going to adapt or change the laws just because we have misunderstood the gospel or lack the real truth.

 

 

What I hoped to come out of this discussion is that the value of any specific truth is directly related its application to the Great Plan of Salvation.  The corollary of this principle also includes our interpretations and understanding of the Great Plan of Salvation.

It appears to me there are three grand elements of truth concerning the Great Plan of Salvation – not necessarily in the order given. 

The First Grand Element of Truth – The Law

Second Grand Element of Truth – The Ordinances

Third Grand Element of Truth – The Covenants

 

Jesus taught that as we follow him – we will know the truth and the truth shall make (or set) us free.  Since a concept of layers has been suggested – I would also expand on this idea that there are layers through which we progress to learn the truth from G-d.  Is anyone following my line of thinking?  Here is a hint – we may think of a layer as that truth which prepares for the next or higher elements of truth.

 

The Traveler

Edited by Traveler

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On 5/31/2017 at 1:13 PM, Rob Osborn said:

There is no doubt in my study and contemplation that some of the very basic teachings regarding the plan of salvation that we teach in church from our manuals just arent true. So, where does that leave us as a whole church? God isnt going to adapt or change the laws just because we have misunderstood the gospel or lack the real truth.

 

Excuse me? The things in the manual are wrong or the way we teach them can be wrong?

I want to be involved in this discussion but I'm confused about what is being discussed. Are we talking about:

1) Is everything the church teaches inherently linked to the Plan of Salvation?

2) Is all truth connected to te Plan of Salvation?

3) Are there truths that aren't necessary for salvation?

The answer to all these questions is yes.

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On 5/31/2017 at 2:13 PM, Rob Osborn said:

There is no doubt in my study and contemplation that some of the very basic teachings regarding the plan of salvation that we teach in church from our manuals just arent true.

Holy_cow.jpg.118f037beefe1c604d878da60529a40b.jpg

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50 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

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Quote from chapter 41 of Gospel Principles-

"Also in the spirit prison are those who rejected the gospel after it was preached to them either on earth or in the spirit prison. These spirits suffer in a condition known as hell. They have removed themselves from the mercy of Jesus Christ, who said, “Behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent; but if they would not repent they must suffer even as I; which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit” (D&C 19:16–18). After suffering for their sins, they will be allowed, through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, to inherit the lowest degree of glory, which is the telestial kingdom."

There are some things that just arent true. The above paragraph from the manual just isnt true.

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It is my opinion that there are problems with doctrine – not with actual doctrine but the way and means by which we approach, use and understand doctrine.  It is so interesting to me that we address doctrine as if doctrine is the single means to truth or the one way to avoid apostasy.  We argue over points of doctrine thinking that by doctrine we are either right or wrong and ignore the laws, ordinances and covenants.  This love of doctrine and ignorance of laws, ordinances and covenants; appears to me to be the apostate way of the Pharisees.

In short, the Plan of Salvation is not about doctrine – it is about Law, Ordinances and Covenants.  I submit that doctrine is that which “prepares" us or brings us to the laws, ordinances and covenants of salvation.  I am convinced that viewing the Plan of Salvation through the lens of doctrine is incomplete.  I also want to make clear that it was the incomplete uses of “Truth” or lens to truth that turned Lucifer into a liar.   I believe this is a principle not well understood – that is that the truth of doctrine is a lie without the law, ordinances and covenants that complete truth.

@Rob Osborn  is correct when he references doctrines as sometimes being taught wrong – but I am not sure that he understands why or that he understands that teaching a truth incorrectly is no better than a lie.  As I read his posts – my general impression is that he has some excellent ideas but does not know what he is talking about.  It is my impression that he thinks only in terms of doctrine.  But I do not think he is the only one to so focus.

We are programed to think of the plan of salvation as a list of things that we need to check off to be saved.  So, we think; Baptism – check, did that, now what is next?  And when we get all things on the list checked off we will be saved.  We will argue over specific points with others of our own faith and most certainly those of others faiths that have obviously “flawed” doctrine.

What I am trying to put across is that the doctrine of salvation is not the Plan of Salvation and unless the doctrine brings us to Christ and to the laws, ordinances and covenants of Christ which is a most important part of the Plan of Salvation; we follow after lies. 

 

The Traveler

Edited by Traveler

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8 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Quote from chapter 41 of Gospel Principles-

"Also in the spirit prison are those who rejected the gospel after it was preached to them either on earth or in the spirit prison. These spirits suffer in a condition known as hell. They have removed themselves from the mercy of Jesus Christ, who said, “Behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent; but if they would not repent they must suffer even as I; which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit” (D&C 19:16–18). After suffering for their sins, they will be allowed, through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, to inherit the lowest degree of glory, which is the telestial kingdom."

There are some things that just arent true. The above paragraph from the manual just isnt true.

According to The Church of Rob Osborn.

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On 5/31/2017 at 3:13 PM, Rob Osborn said:

 

There is no doubt in my study and contemplation that some of the very basic teachings regarding the plan of salvation that we teach in church from our manuals just arent true. 

 

Rob, do you think it is possible that you are misunderstanding, or misinterpreting, the doctrines and teachings?  

 

It's obvious that you have studied your scriptures extensively. That's great! You have obviously pondered a lot on the things you have studied, also. But, if I may be bold for a moment, so have the millions of other religious people of the world. Even Joseph Smith determined that an appeal to the Bible alone wasn't going to settle his dilemma of learning the truth. 

 

It seems to me that you are seeking learning by study, which is good. I am suggesting the possibility that you are forgetting the important aspect of learning by faith. (D&C 88:118) 

 

 

“We would remind you that the acquiring of knowledge by faith is no easy road to learning. It demands strenuous effort and a continual striving by faith. …

Learning by faith is no task for a lazy man [or woman]. Someone has said, in effect, that such a process requires the bending of the whole soul, the calling up from the depths of the human mind and linking it with God—the right connection must be formed. Then only comes ‘knowledge by faith.” 

-President Harold B. Lee 

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2 hours ago, Traveler said:

 

It is my opinion that there are problems with doctrine – not with actual doctrine but the way and means by which we approach, use and understand doctrine.  It is so interesting to me that we address doctrine as if doctrine is the single means to truth or the one way to avoid apostasy.  We argue over points of doctrine thinking that by doctrine we are either right or wrong and ignore the laws, ordinances and covenants.  This love of doctrine and ignorance of laws, ordinances and covenants; appears to me to be the apostate way of the Pharisees.

In short, the Plan of Salvation is not about doctrine – it is about Law, Ordinances and Covenants.  I submit that doctrine is that which “prepares" us or brings us to the laws, ordinances and covenants of salvation.  I am convinced that viewing the Plan of Salvation through the lens of doctrine is incomplete.  I also want to make clear that it was the incomplete uses of “Truth” or lens to truth that turned Lucifer into a liar.   I believe this is a principle not well understood – that is that the truth of doctrine is a lie without the law, ordinances and covenants that complete truth.

@Rob Osborn  is correct when he references doctrines as sometimes being taught wrong – but I am not sure that he understands why or that he understands that teaching a truth incorrectly is no better than a lie.  As I read his posts – my general impression is that he has some excellent ideas but does not know what he is talking about.  It is my impression that he thinks only in terms of doctrine.  But I do not think he is the only one to so focus.

We are programed to think of the plan of salvation as a list of things that we need to check off to be saved.  So, we think; Baptism – check, did that, now what is next?  And when we get all things on the list checked off we will be saved.  We will argue over specific points with others of our own faith and most certainly those of others faiths that have obviously “flawed” doctrine.

What I am trying to put across is that the doctrine of salvation is not the Plan of Salvation and unless the doctrine brings us to Christ and to the laws, ordinances and covenants of Christ which is a most important part of the Plan of Salvation; we follow after lies. 

 

The Traveler

I do know what I am talking about. The bottom line is that one must be born again, changed from their carnal and fallen nature or they cannot be saved.

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2 hours ago, Colirio said:

Rob, do you think it is possible that you are misunderstanding, or misinterpreting, the doctrines and teachings?  

 

It's obvious that you have studied your scriptures extensively. That's great! You have obviously pondered a lot on the things you have studied, also. But, if I may be bold for a moment, so have the millions of other religious people of the world. Even Joseph Smith determined that an appeal to the Bible alone wasn't going to settle his dilemma of learning the truth. 

 

It seems to me that you are seeking learning by study, which is good. I am suggesting the possibility that you are forgetting the important aspect of learning by faith. (D&C 88:118) 

 

 

“We would remind you that the acquiring of knowledge by faith is no easy road to learning. It demands strenuous effort and a continual striving by faith. …

Learning by faith is no task for a lazy man [or woman]. Someone has said, in effect, that such a process requires the bending of the whole soul, the calling up from the depths of the human mind and linking it with God—the right connection must be formed. Then only comes ‘knowledge by faith.” 

-President Harold B. Lee 

I have been studying this subject for 20 years. Its been a long road that  in part actually brought me back into the church. I have studied it from a multitude of angles, read many books, had dreams, prayed about it and have slowly, step by small step, arrived at this point where I am sure I have found the truth. This isnt sonething I have just come up with last week. Its kind of my lifes work so to speak. I havent got every detail worked out, long way off but I do know our teachings on sone things are wholly incorrect.

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11 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

I do know what I am talking about. The bottom line is that one must be born again, changed from their carnal and fallen nature or they cannot be saved.

You know this because you have changed from your carnal and fallen nature?

 

The Traveler

 

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2 minutes ago, Traveler said:

You know this because you have changed from your carnal and fallen nature?

 

The Traveler

 

All men must be born again, becoming his sons and daughters, and unless they do this they must be cast off.

Generally speaking all true LDS are born again.

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1 minute ago, Rob Osborn said:

All men must be born again, becoming his sons and daughters, and unless they do this they must be cast off.

Generally speaking all true LDS are born again.

I was curious if you have cast off your carnal and fallen nature?

 

The Traveler

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10 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Usually a towel drying and then getting dressed.

Hmmmmmmmm - so much for respecting and appreciating the gift of Holy Ghost.

 

The Traveler

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On May 31, 2017 at 10:49 AM, Traveler said:

 

Is there any difference between the principles & Doctrines of truth and the Great Plan of Salvation?  Are there doctrines taught in the truth that do not apply to the Great Plan of Salvation?  Is there a truth that is not part of the Great Plan of Salvation?

Often, I hear someone imply that they are not interested in determining the truth of something because it is not necessary for their salvation.  I this a morally correct approach for understanding the Great Plan of Salvation as well as determining the value of truths?

 

The Traveler

I figure if i am seeing a contradiction in something, my first assumption is that i am missing something, my second is that i am using the wrong angle or context.

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On 5/31/2017 at 9:49 AM, Traveler said:

 

Is there any difference between the principles & Doctrines of truth and the Great Plan of Salvation?  Are there doctrines taught in the truth that do not apply to the Great Plan of Salvation?  Is there a truth that is not part of the Great Plan of Salvation?

Often, I hear someone imply that they are not interested in determining the truth of something because it is not necessary for their salvation.  I this a morally correct approach for understanding the Great Plan of Salvation as well as determining the value of truths?

 

The Traveler

Some things that are true are just not very important. Can you tell me where Gods began to be? If you knew this, would it make any difference to your part in the great plan of salvation?

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On 6/2/2017 at 8:06 AM, Rob Osborn said:

There are some things that just arent true. The above paragraph from the manual just isnt true.

Interesting position to take. What is true then?

I can agree that we teach a lot of things in ignorance, but that doesn't mean it's not true. We may not know how to put the pieces together, but that doesn't mean that the pieces do go together. In the example you quoted, it referenced scripture. Was the scripture just not true? or was the ideas that were taught based on that scripture not true? Based on one your responses, it appears that you have no problem with spirit prison or that people are kept from paradise by their own choice so that probably isn't the issue. Perhaps it's the idea of hell as being a temporary condition for them that is not true. Perhaps after rejecting the truth and staying in prision, they ought to be made sons of Perdition or placed in permanent hell?

But I do agree with you, we do teach a lot of things that we don't know how it works. We say we are the God's children and it seems that some people think this means a 9 month pregancy and 50 billion personal births. The idea is ludicrous. That doesn't mean that we're not God's children. It just means that we don't know what makes us God's children. When we explain how things are done when we don't know, it is very likely that we will get the "how" of how things are done, wrong.

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