Traveler

The Great Plan of Salvation vs Principles & Doctrine

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Is there any difference between the principles & Doctrines of truth and the Great Plan of Salvation?  Are there doctrines taught in the truth that do not apply to the Great Plan of Salvation?  Is there a truth that is not part of the Great Plan of Salvation?

Often, I hear someone imply that they are not interested in determining the truth of something because it is not necessary for their salvation.  I this a morally correct approach for understanding the Great Plan of Salvation as well as determining the value of truths?

 

The Traveler

Edited by Traveler

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2 hours ago, Traveler said:

 

Is there any difference between the principles & Doctrines of truth and the Great Plan of Salvation?  Are there doctrines taught in the truth that do not apply to the Great Plan of Salvation?  Is there a truth that is not part of the Great Plan of Salvation?

Often, I hear someone imply that they are not interested in determining the truth of something because it is not necessary for their salvation.  I this a morally correct approach for understanding the Great Plan of Salvation as well as determining the value of truths?

 

The Traveler

I think there are multiple layers here. Ultimately all truth comes back to, or is traced to, God and everything he does to bring about his work and glory. What may be like the first layer is basic salvation from hell. Whether we enter into polygamy or not is one of those things that the knowledge of isnt required to be saved from hell. The next layer may be something like what is required to know to living on the earth with Christ during the millennium. Will we have to be perfect or what level of perfection maybe isnt the required knowledge for gaining entrance upon the earth to rule and reign with Christ for the thousand years.

Beyond those layers, or perhaps before we can even understand such, is how we apply what we know to be judged on whether its really true or not. There is no doubt in my study and contemplation that some of the very basic teachings regarding the plan of salvation that we teach in church from our manuals just arent true. So, where does that leave us as a whole church? God isnt going to adapt or change the laws just because we have misunderstood the gospel or lack the real truth.

 

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6 hours ago, Traveler said:

Is there any difference between the principles & Doctrines of truth and the Great Plan of Salvation?  Are there doctrines taught in the truth that do not apply to the Great Plan of Salvation?  Is there a truth that is not part of the Great Plan of Salvation?

Often, I hear someone imply that they are not interested in determining the truth of something because it is not necessary for their salvation.  I this a morally correct approach for understanding the Great Plan of Salvation as well as determining the value of truths?

The Traveler

I see it as the Plan, the Execution, and the Realization of Salvation/Happiness. For example, the plan is laid out in Abraham 3; the execution is being able to say, "And it came to pass that we lived after the manner of happiness" and the realization is described in the scriptures about exaltation. Of course the execution and realization were envisioned as part of the plan and carry the very same principles, doctrines and truths as the plan. So the only difference is in the application and context of the principles, doctrines and truths in the pre-mortal, mortal, and post-mortal spheres, and not in the principles, doctrines and truths themselves.

Baptism is a great example. It was instituted while we were yet spirits, yet can only be performed in the flesh, by oneself or by proxy (D&C 124). The priesthood is another: it was given in a preparatory sense and also in the flesh (Alma 13), and also by proxy.

I sometimes think people conflate facts and information with truth. Some facts and information are not necessary for our salvation, and the spirit will guide us in that, or at least help us tell the difference and keep things in perspective.  It is one thing to know about God and His ways, and another to know God and His ways. Sometimes the difference is subtle and sometimes they go together, and sometimes one leads to the other, but it is always good to approach these things as a little child and discuss them with a spirit of charity and not the spirit of contention, which I take to be the moral and ethical standard for the Gospel.

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7 hours ago, Traveler said:

Is there a truth that is not part of the Great Plan of Salvation?

Often, I hear someone imply that they are not interested in determining the truth of something because it is not necessary for their salvation.  I this a morally correct approach for understanding the Great Plan of Salvation as well as determining the value of truths?

"One important implication of what we have been discussing is that all knowledge is not of equal significance. There is no democracy of facts! They are not of equal importance. Something might be factual, but not be important. For instance, today I wear a dark blue suit. That is true, but it is unimportant. As, more and more, we brush against truth, we sense that it has a hierarchy of importance. Some truths are salvationally significant and others are not."  -Neal A. Maxwell

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1993/04/the-inexhaustible-gospel?lang=eng

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23 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

I think there are multiple layers here. Ultimately all truth comes back to, or is traced to, God and everything he does to bring about his work and glory. What may be like the first layer is basic salvation from hell. Whether we enter into polygamy or not is one of those things that the knowledge of isnt required to be saved from hell. The next layer may be something like what is required to know to living on the earth with Christ during the millennium. Will we have to be perfect or what level of perfection maybe isnt the required knowledge for gaining entrance upon the earth to rule and reign with Christ for the thousand years.

Beyond those layers, or perhaps before we can even understand such, is how we apply what we know to be judged on whether its really true or not. There is no doubt in my study and contemplation that some of the very basic teachings regarding the plan of salvation that we teach in church from our manuals just arent true. So, where does that leave us as a whole church? God isnt going to adapt or change the laws just because we have misunderstood the gospel or lack the real truth.

 

 

What I hoped to come out of this discussion is that the value of any specific truth is directly related its application to the Great Plan of Salvation.  The corollary of this principle also includes our interpretations and understanding of the Great Plan of Salvation.

It appears to me there are three grand elements of truth concerning the Great Plan of Salvation – not necessarily in the order given. 

The First Grand Element of Truth – The Law

Second Grand Element of Truth – The Ordinances

Third Grand Element of Truth – The Covenants

 

Jesus taught that as we follow him – we will know the truth and the truth shall make (or set) us free.  Since a concept of layers has been suggested – I would also expand on this idea that there are layers through which we progress to learn the truth from G-d.  Is anyone following my line of thinking?  Here is a hint – we may think of a layer as that truth which prepares for the next or higher elements of truth.

 

The Traveler

Edited by Traveler

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On 5/31/2017 at 1:13 PM, Rob Osborn said:

There is no doubt in my study and contemplation that some of the very basic teachings regarding the plan of salvation that we teach in church from our manuals just arent true. So, where does that leave us as a whole church? God isnt going to adapt or change the laws just because we have misunderstood the gospel or lack the real truth.

 

Excuse me? The things in the manual are wrong or the way we teach them can be wrong?

I want to be involved in this discussion but I'm confused about what is being discussed. Are we talking about:

1) Is everything the church teaches inherently linked to the Plan of Salvation?

2) Is all truth connected to te Plan of Salvation?

3) Are there truths that aren't necessary for salvation?

The answer to all these questions is yes.

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50 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

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Quote from chapter 41 of Gospel Principles-

"Also in the spirit prison are those who rejected the gospel after it was preached to them either on earth or in the spirit prison. These spirits suffer in a condition known as hell. They have removed themselves from the mercy of Jesus Christ, who said, “Behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent; but if they would not repent they must suffer even as I; which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit” (D&C 19:16–18). After suffering for their sins, they will be allowed, through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, to inherit the lowest degree of glory, which is the telestial kingdom."

There are some things that just arent true. The above paragraph from the manual just isnt true.

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It is my opinion that there are problems with doctrine – not with actual doctrine but the way and means by which we approach, use and understand doctrine.  It is so interesting to me that we address doctrine as if doctrine is the single means to truth or the one way to avoid apostasy.  We argue over points of doctrine thinking that by doctrine we are either right or wrong and ignore the laws, ordinances and covenants.  This love of doctrine and ignorance of laws, ordinances and covenants; appears to me to be the apostate way of the Pharisees.

In short, the Plan of Salvation is not about doctrine – it is about Law, Ordinances and Covenants.  I submit that doctrine is that which “prepares" us or brings us to the laws, ordinances and covenants of salvation.  I am convinced that viewing the Plan of Salvation through the lens of doctrine is incomplete.  I also want to make clear that it was the incomplete uses of “Truth” or lens to truth that turned Lucifer into a liar.   I believe this is a principle not well understood – that is that the truth of doctrine is a lie without the law, ordinances and covenants that complete truth.

@Rob Osborn  is correct when he references doctrines as sometimes being taught wrong – but I am not sure that he understands why or that he understands that teaching a truth incorrectly is no better than a lie.  As I read his posts – my general impression is that he has some excellent ideas but does not know what he is talking about.  It is my impression that he thinks only in terms of doctrine.  But I do not think he is the only one to so focus.

We are programed to think of the plan of salvation as a list of things that we need to check off to be saved.  So, we think; Baptism – check, did that, now what is next?  And when we get all things on the list checked off we will be saved.  We will argue over specific points with others of our own faith and most certainly those of others faiths that have obviously “flawed” doctrine.

What I am trying to put across is that the doctrine of salvation is not the Plan of Salvation and unless the doctrine brings us to Christ and to the laws, ordinances and covenants of Christ which is a most important part of the Plan of Salvation; we follow after lies. 

 

The Traveler

Edited by Traveler

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8 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Quote from chapter 41 of Gospel Principles-

"Also in the spirit prison are those who rejected the gospel after it was preached to them either on earth or in the spirit prison. These spirits suffer in a condition known as hell. They have removed themselves from the mercy of Jesus Christ, who said, “Behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent; but if they would not repent they must suffer even as I; which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit” (D&C 19:16–18). After suffering for their sins, they will be allowed, through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, to inherit the lowest degree of glory, which is the telestial kingdom."

There are some things that just arent true. The above paragraph from the manual just isnt true.

According to The Church of Rob Osborn.

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On 5/31/2017 at 3:13 PM, Rob Osborn said:

 

There is no doubt in my study and contemplation that some of the very basic teachings regarding the plan of salvation that we teach in church from our manuals just arent true. 

 

Rob, do you think it is possible that you are misunderstanding, or misinterpreting, the doctrines and teachings?  

 

It's obvious that you have studied your scriptures extensively. That's great! You have obviously pondered a lot on the things you have studied, also. But, if I may be bold for a moment, so have the millions of other religious people of the world. Even Joseph Smith determined that an appeal to the Bible alone wasn't going to settle his dilemma of learning the truth. 

 

It seems to me that you are seeking learning by study, which is good. I am suggesting the possibility that you are forgetting the important aspect of learning by faith. (D&C 88:118) 

 

 

“We would remind you that the acquiring of knowledge by faith is no easy road to learning. It demands strenuous effort and a continual striving by faith. …

Learning by faith is no task for a lazy man [or woman]. Someone has said, in effect, that such a process requires the bending of the whole soul, the calling up from the depths of the human mind and linking it with God—the right connection must be formed. Then only comes ‘knowledge by faith.” 

-President Harold B. Lee 

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2 hours ago, Traveler said:

 

It is my opinion that there are problems with doctrine – not with actual doctrine but the way and means by which we approach, use and understand doctrine.  It is so interesting to me that we address doctrine as if doctrine is the single means to truth or the one way to avoid apostasy.  We argue over points of doctrine thinking that by doctrine we are either right or wrong and ignore the laws, ordinances and covenants.  This love of doctrine and ignorance of laws, ordinances and covenants; appears to me to be the apostate way of the Pharisees.

In short, the Plan of Salvation is not about doctrine – it is about Law, Ordinances and Covenants.  I submit that doctrine is that which “prepares" us or brings us to the laws, ordinances and covenants of salvation.  I am convinced that viewing the Plan of Salvation through the lens of doctrine is incomplete.  I also want to make clear that it was the incomplete uses of “Truth” or lens to truth that turned Lucifer into a liar.   I believe this is a principle not well understood – that is that the truth of doctrine is a lie without the law, ordinances and covenants that complete truth.

@Rob Osborn  is correct when he references doctrines as sometimes being taught wrong – but I am not sure that he understands why or that he understands that teaching a truth incorrectly is no better than a lie.  As I read his posts – my general impression is that he has some excellent ideas but does not know what he is talking about.  It is my impression that he thinks only in terms of doctrine.  But I do not think he is the only one to so focus.

We are programed to think of the plan of salvation as a list of things that we need to check off to be saved.  So, we think; Baptism – check, did that, now what is next?  And when we get all things on the list checked off we will be saved.  We will argue over specific points with others of our own faith and most certainly those of others faiths that have obviously “flawed” doctrine.

What I am trying to put across is that the doctrine of salvation is not the Plan of Salvation and unless the doctrine brings us to Christ and to the laws, ordinances and covenants of Christ which is a most important part of the Plan of Salvation; we follow after lies. 

 

The Traveler

I do know what I am talking about. The bottom line is that one must be born again, changed from their carnal and fallen nature or they cannot be saved.

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2 hours ago, Colirio said:

Rob, do you think it is possible that you are misunderstanding, or misinterpreting, the doctrines and teachings?  

 

It's obvious that you have studied your scriptures extensively. That's great! You have obviously pondered a lot on the things you have studied, also. But, if I may be bold for a moment, so have the millions of other religious people of the world. Even Joseph Smith determined that an appeal to the Bible alone wasn't going to settle his dilemma of learning the truth. 

 

It seems to me that you are seeking learning by study, which is good. I am suggesting the possibility that you are forgetting the important aspect of learning by faith. (D&C 88:118) 

 

 

“We would remind you that the acquiring of knowledge by faith is no easy road to learning. It demands strenuous effort and a continual striving by faith. …

Learning by faith is no task for a lazy man [or woman]. Someone has said, in effect, that such a process requires the bending of the whole soul, the calling up from the depths of the human mind and linking it with God—the right connection must be formed. Then only comes ‘knowledge by faith.” 

-President Harold B. Lee 

I have been studying this subject for 20 years. Its been a long road that  in part actually brought me back into the church. I have studied it from a multitude of angles, read many books, had dreams, prayed about it and have slowly, step by small step, arrived at this point where I am sure I have found the truth. This isnt sonething I have just come up with last week. Its kind of my lifes work so to speak. I havent got every detail worked out, long way off but I do know our teachings on sone things are wholly incorrect.

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11 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

I do know what I am talking about. The bottom line is that one must be born again, changed from their carnal and fallen nature or they cannot be saved.

You know this because you have changed from your carnal and fallen nature?

 

The Traveler

 

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2 minutes ago, Traveler said:

You know this because you have changed from your carnal and fallen nature?

 

The Traveler

 

All men must be born again, becoming his sons and daughters, and unless they do this they must be cast off.

Generally speaking all true LDS are born again.

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1 minute ago, Rob Osborn said:

All men must be born again, becoming his sons and daughters, and unless they do this they must be cast off.

Generally speaking all true LDS are born again.

I was curious if you have cast off your carnal and fallen nature?

 

The Traveler

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On May 31, 2017 at 10:49 AM, Traveler said:

 

Is there any difference between the principles & Doctrines of truth and the Great Plan of Salvation?  Are there doctrines taught in the truth that do not apply to the Great Plan of Salvation?  Is there a truth that is not part of the Great Plan of Salvation?

Often, I hear someone imply that they are not interested in determining the truth of something because it is not necessary for their salvation.  I this a morally correct approach for understanding the Great Plan of Salvation as well as determining the value of truths?

 

The Traveler

I figure if i am seeing a contradiction in something, my first assumption is that i am missing something, my second is that i am using the wrong angle or context.

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On 5/31/2017 at 9:49 AM, Traveler said:

 

Is there any difference between the principles & Doctrines of truth and the Great Plan of Salvation?  Are there doctrines taught in the truth that do not apply to the Great Plan of Salvation?  Is there a truth that is not part of the Great Plan of Salvation?

Often, I hear someone imply that they are not interested in determining the truth of something because it is not necessary for their salvation.  I this a morally correct approach for understanding the Great Plan of Salvation as well as determining the value of truths?

 

The Traveler

Some things that are true are just not very important. Can you tell me where Gods began to be? If you knew this, would it make any difference to your part in the great plan of salvation?

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On 6/2/2017 at 8:06 AM, Rob Osborn said:

There are some things that just arent true. The above paragraph from the manual just isnt true.

Interesting position to take. What is true then?

I can agree that we teach a lot of things in ignorance, but that doesn't mean it's not true. We may not know how to put the pieces together, but that doesn't mean that the pieces do go together. In the example you quoted, it referenced scripture. Was the scripture just not true? or was the ideas that were taught based on that scripture not true? Based on one your responses, it appears that you have no problem with spirit prison or that people are kept from paradise by their own choice so that probably isn't the issue. Perhaps it's the idea of hell as being a temporary condition for them that is not true. Perhaps after rejecting the truth and staying in prision, they ought to be made sons of Perdition or placed in permanent hell?

But I do agree with you, we do teach a lot of things that we don't know how it works. We say we are the God's children and it seems that some people think this means a 9 month pregancy and 50 billion personal births. The idea is ludicrous. That doesn't mean that we're not God's children. It just means that we don't know what makes us God's children. When we explain how things are done when we don't know, it is very likely that we will get the "how" of how things are done, wrong.

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