CV75 Posted June 9, 2017 Report Share Posted June 9, 2017 6 hours ago, brotherofJared said: Fine, but eternal damnation is a relative term, it appears. Damnation is separation from God and everyone who obtains a telestial glory will be separated from both the Father and the Son. It is not necessary for them to be cast into outer darkness to fulfill this scripture. I agree. D&C 121:37 speaks of degrees of unrighteousness. D&C 131 speaks of degrees even in the celestial kingdom. Alma 27:28 speaks of any degree of terror of death, which the faithful have swallowed up in Christ (and which Alma experienced the greatest degree, Alma 36:12; and Joseph Smith to the least degree, D&C 19:20). Of course, these truths will be ignored by those who hold that some scripture -- especially that which is not translated correctly, or lacks a fulnes of the gospel, or that is translated correctly and/or does contain the fullness of the gospel yet is only preparatory to the expanded light and understanding given in scripture given in the dispensation of the fulness of times – make life easier than that given in the dispensation of the fulness of times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Osborn Posted June 9, 2017 Report Share Posted June 9, 2017 6 hours ago, brotherofJared said: Fine, but eternal damnation is a relative term, it appears. Damnation is separation from God and everyone who obtains a telestial glory will be separated from both the Father and the Son. It is not necessary for them to be cast into outer darkness to fulfill this scripture. No. Eternal damnation means to go into the eternal hell after resurrection and judgement. One cannot receive salvation and damnation at the same time. Do a scripture study of this term. You will find that it means to be condemned to hell after resurrection and judgement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Traveler Posted June 9, 2017 Author Report Share Posted June 9, 2017 10 hours ago, Rob Osborn said: I am in complete agreement that this life is anything but fair. The advantages and disadvantages are so varried at opposite ends of the spectrum that it certainly cant be true that what happens in this life is what qualifies us for a kingdom in eternity. It is on this basis alone that leads me to that certain belief that the heaven we get saved into is only one physical place. The millennium is that period where we all truly prove ourselves and work towards perfection. I personally do not like the idea that we “prove ourselves”. It carries the concept of arrival or an end of effort. I am of the notion that the task that bring greatness is in the journey and not in the destination. This is also contrary to your notion of heaven being one place – I believe intelligence makes the place not that the place makes what is there, intelligence. The scientific definition of intelligence is the ability to learn and modify behavior. I believe divine intelligence will also modify its environment according to the intelligence’s ability. I have a very difficult time trying to follow your logic if I assume heavenly beings are intelligent. The Traveler SilentOne 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Traveler Posted June 9, 2017 Author Report Share Posted June 9, 2017 7 hours ago, brotherofJared said: Fine, but eternal damnation is a relative term, it appears. Damnation is separation from God and everyone who obtains a telestial glory will be separated from both the Father and the Son. It is not necessary for them to be cast into outer darkness to fulfill this scripture. I am of a slightly different opinion and understanding. I believe that “death” and “Hell” are the actual meaning of being separated from G-d. The term “damnation” to me means bounded or limited. The Traveler Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Traveler Posted June 9, 2017 Author Report Share Posted June 9, 2017 19 hours ago, Rob Osborn said: And, in my opinion, the doctrine we currently teach regarding salvation and the kingdom of heaven which include the telestial is incorrect. There comes a point where either most of our BoM and NT is wrong, or, our teachings and interpretations are wrong because there actually are real contradictions. Bruce R. McConkie tried to resolve this issue by changing/modifying certain words and terms but in the process just made more of a mess of it. The term salvation comes from the same root (as to meaning) as salvage. When a salvage operation takes place, what happens is that all things of value are preserved and that which has no value is discarded or left behind. It is obvious that not everyone has the exact same salvageable traits or stuff. I am thinking that you are making a mess and creating contradictions that do not really exist. The Traveler Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Osborn Posted June 9, 2017 Report Share Posted June 9, 2017 1 hour ago, Traveler said: The term salvation comes from the same root (as to meaning) as salvage. When a salvage operation takes place, what happens is that all things of value are preserved and that which has no value is discarded or left behind. It is obvious that not everyone has the exact same salvageable traits or stuff. I am thinking that you are making a mess and creating contradictions that do not really exist. The Traveler Our plan of salvation is a mess. Im simplifying it and putting in order. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 9, 2017 Report Share Posted June 9, 2017 (edited) 24 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said: Our plan of salvation is a mess. Im simplifying it and putting in order. If only you could get the prophet and apostles to understand that. It's fine to have opinions and interpretations. But you're going another step further when you make statements like this. Rob, seriously. I'm going to add my voice to those calling you to repentance. You've got one foot out the Church door and another on a banana peel. Please learn to humble yourself. Stay true. Edited June 9, 2017 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Traveler Posted June 9, 2017 Author Report Share Posted June 9, 2017 1 hour ago, Rob Osborn said: Our plan of salvation is a mess. Im simplifying it and putting in order. Only if you miss use terms. As I said - salvation has similar meaning to salvage. To force something on someone is neither just nor merciful. Perdition means complete ruin – in other words nothing to salvage. G-d will salvage all that is good, just and true. To assume that anything else can be salvaged is a logical and literal mess and that appears to me what you are suggesting – that everyone will obtain the same salvation. That is an obvious mess that has no logic unless the very meaning of terms are altered to mean something else. But that appears to be to be the very essence of a lie. To assume G-d will salvage something that is never sought for is ludicrous and the essence of Satan’s argument - in other words to not consider agency. Thus, it is contrary to truth and the light of truth to assume things can be salvaged from that from that where it does not exist. There is no logic to such thinking I would also point out that there is no advantage in putting off till the millennium that which can be achieved now. In fact, all scripture points to the advantage of embracing truth as much as possible - now, in this life. The Traveler Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Folk Prophet Posted June 9, 2017 Report Share Posted June 9, 2017 On 6/3/2017 at 6:34 PM, Traveler said: Hmmmmmmmm - so much for respecting and appreciating the gift of Holy Ghost. The Traveler Nice try. Implying I'm disrespecting the Holy Ghost for not biting your bait. I'll give you a C- for effort. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brotherofJared Posted June 9, 2017 Report Share Posted June 9, 2017 4 hours ago, Rob Osborn said: Eternal damnation means to go into the eternal hell after resurrection and judgement. It appears that "hell" is not outer darkness which seems to be quite clear from the scriptures you quote since one can graduate from hell to a telestial glory, but not one can leave outer darkness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brotherofJared Posted June 9, 2017 Report Share Posted June 9, 2017 4 hours ago, Rob Osborn said: One cannot receive salvation and damnation at the same time. So, what is the telestial kingdom? Salvation or damnation? Is it not relative? For those in outer darkness, would it not be salvation and for those in the Celestial world, would it not be damnation? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Traveler Posted June 9, 2017 Author Report Share Posted June 9, 2017 20 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said: Nice try. Implying I'm disrespecting the Holy Ghost for not biting your bait. I'll give you a C- for effort. You do realize that this thread is talking about the Great Plan of Salvation? With that as the context I would give you a F- for your effort. To be honest it appeared to me that you had no desire to respond truthfully to a question concerning the Great Plan of Salvation but to misdirect and create misunderstanding. So, let us try this again - as we consider the pure doctrine and revelation given concerning the Great Plan of Salvation - what comes after Baptism? The Traveler Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Folk Prophet Posted June 9, 2017 Report Share Posted June 9, 2017 5 minutes ago, Traveler said: You do realize that this thread is talking about the Great Plan of Salvation? With that as the context I would give you a F- for your effort. To be honest it appeared to me that you had no desire to respond truthfully to a question concerning the Great Plan of Salvation but to misdirect and create misunderstanding. So, let us try this again - as we consider the pure doctrine and revelation given concerning the Great Plan of Salvation - what comes after Baptism? The Traveler No, you're trying to bait me into giving a stock primary answer to prove that we're all a bunch of thoughtless trained monkeys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brotherofJared Posted June 10, 2017 Report Share Posted June 10, 2017 (edited) 11 hours ago, Traveler said: I am of a slightly different opinion and understanding. I believe that “death” and “Hell” are the actual meaning of being separated from G-d. The term “damnation” to me means bounded or limited. The Traveler Are we not separated from God now? Is this death? Is this hell?. If it is death, why do I feel pain? If it is hell, then hell is a pretty darn good place. By that definition, we are damned now. By that definition, then it would seem that everything but exaltation is damnation. Is that correct? Edited June 10, 2017 by brotherofJared adding after reading last sentence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brotherofJared Posted June 10, 2017 Report Share Posted June 10, 2017 11 hours ago, Traveler said: The term salvation comes from the same root (as to meaning) as salvage. When a salvage operation takes place, what happens is that all things of value are preserved [recovered and most often kept in the corrupted state they were found in and thus, they are also limited] and that which has no value is discarded or left behind. It is obvious that not everyone has the exact same salvageable traits or stuff. I am thinking that you are making a mess and creating contradictions that do not really exist. The Traveler While the root may be similar, I don't think the concept is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brotherofJared Posted June 10, 2017 Report Share Posted June 10, 2017 (edited) 10 hours ago, Rob Osborn said: Our plan of salvation is a mess. Im simplifying it and putting in order. Wouldn't doing that make you god? Or something on that order? Maybe a prophet or at least an apostle. Edited June 10, 2017 by brotherofJared Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brotherofJared Posted June 10, 2017 Report Share Posted June 10, 2017 (edited) 10 hours ago, Carborendum said: Rob, seriously. I'm going to add my voice to those calling you to repentance. You've got one foot out the Church door and another on a banana peel. Please learn to humble yourself. Stay true. Actually, I decided not to post anything in response. Edited June 10, 2017 by brotherofJared Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Osborn Posted June 11, 2017 Report Share Posted June 11, 2017 On 6/9/2017 at 10:02 AM, Carborendum said: If only you could get the prophet and apostles to understand that. It's fine to have opinions and interpretations. But you're going another step further when you make statements like this. Rob, seriously. I'm going to add my voice to those calling you to repentance. You've got one foot out the Church door and another on a banana peel. Please learn to humble yourself. Stay true. I got both feet firmly in the church thankyou. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Osborn Posted June 11, 2017 Report Share Posted June 11, 2017 On 6/9/2017 at 0:16 PM, brotherofJared said: So, what is the telestial kingdom? Salvation or damnation? Is it not relative? For those in outer darkness, would it not be salvation and for those in the Celestial world, would it not be damnation? Damnation means to be condemned to hell or state of the condemned in hell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Osborn Posted June 11, 2017 Report Share Posted June 11, 2017 On 6/9/2017 at 0:13 PM, brotherofJared said: It appears that "hell" is not outer darkness which seems to be quite clear from the scriptures you quote since one can graduate from hell to a telestial glory, but not one can leave outer darkness. The unrepentant at resurrection go into outer darkness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brotherofJared Posted June 11, 2017 Report Share Posted June 11, 2017 3 hours ago, Rob Osborn said: Damnation means to be condemned to hell or state of the condemned in hell. I didn't ask what damnation was. I believe it is relative. Do you have a reference that supports your definition? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brotherofJared Posted June 11, 2017 Report Share Posted June 11, 2017 3 hours ago, Rob Osborn said: The unrepentant at resurrection go into outer darkness. Do you have a reference for your assertion? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Osborn Posted June 11, 2017 Report Share Posted June 11, 2017 8 hours ago, brotherofJared said: I didn't ask what damnation was. I believe it is relative. Do you have a reference that supports your definition? The scriptures were written with that definition of being condemned to hell. It always means that. The question is- can you find any reference where damnation means something else? No, it doesnt exist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Osborn Posted June 11, 2017 Report Share Posted June 11, 2017 8 hours ago, brotherofJared said: Do you have a reference for your assertion? I thought I gave it already. Christ cannot save the unrepentant- 4 And surely every man must repent or suffer, for I, God, am endless. 5 Wherefore, I revoke not the judgments which I shall pass, but woes shall go forth, weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth, yea, to those who are found on my left hand. 6 Nevertheless, it is not written that there shall be no end to this torment, but it is written endless torment. (D&C 19:4-6) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just_A_Guy Posted June 11, 2017 Report Share Posted June 11, 2017 (edited) 21 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said: I thought I gave it already. Christ cannot save the unrepentant- 4 And surely every man must repent or suffer, for I, God, am endless. 5 Wherefore, I revoke not the judgments which I shall pass, but woes shall go forth, weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth, yea, to those who are found on my left hand. 6 Nevertheless, it is not written that there shall be no end to this torment, but it is written endless torment. (D&C 19:4-6) One might also take Amulek's answer to Zeezrom--God saves us from, not in, our sins. If those who are impenitent even at the final judgment cannot be saved, then by logical elimination they must be a part of that group who go away into outer darkness. Surely we don't imagine God setting up a kingdom--even the Telestial Kingdom--where people would spend eternity lying, stealing, fornicating, etc? If they keep on doing things that are contrary to the nature of happiness, they won't be happy and their kingdom--whatever it is--will not be one of glory. And if they stop doing those things, then it is because they have repented to some degree. Edited June 11, 2017 by Just_A_Guy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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