The Great Plan of Salvation vs Principles & Doctrine


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7 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

One might also take Amulek's answer to Zeezrom--God saves us from, not in, our sins.  If those who are impenitent even at the final judgment cannot be saved, then by logical elimination they must be a part of that group who go away into outer darkness.

Surely we don't imagine God setting up a kingdom--even the Telestial Kingdom--where people would spend eternity lying, stealing, fornicating, etc?  If they keep on doing things that are contrary to the nature of happiness, they won't be happy and their kingdom--whatever it is--will not be one of glory.  And if they stop doing those things, then it is because they have repented to some degree.

If a person is saved its because they have repented of every sin.

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On ‎6‎/‎9‎/‎2017 at 8:03 PM, brotherofJared said:

Are we not separated from God now? Is this death? Is this hell?. If it is death, why do I feel pain? If it is hell, then hell is a pretty darn good place.

By that definition, we are damned now. By that definition, then it would seem that everything but exaltation is damnation. Is that correct?

There are two death - we currently suffer a spiritual death because we are separated from G-d the Father.  When Adam and Eve partoook of the fruit they did die that very same day.  We will also suffer a spiritual death and will also suffer a physical death.  The scriptures teach that death and hell will give up the dead in the “resurrection”.  As we are resurrected we will stand before G-d in the flesh (both the first and second death are overcome) – this is what is meant by the teaching that Christ has overcome death and hell.

Without the "atonement" of Christ we are damned.  and yes - without exaltation we are also damned.  There is a different meaning between damned and perdition.  The other term for damned is "bondage" which is the opposite of being free.

It is my observation that there are 3 grand steps (or choices) to freedom that if not made correctly will result in the opposite of freedom - which is bondage or being damned.  This is because there is opposition (an opposite) to all things.  So, to give more concerning my opinion the first grand step to freedom is discipline.  The opposite of discipline is the first brand step to bondage.  As you can see from my previous posts - I love words.  The word disciple and the word discipline have the same root meaning.  Thus, the term disciple of Christ is someone disciplined in the “teachings” and example of Christ.  Anciently a “master” was a teacher of discipline (it was thought anciently that learning and discipline were one in the same) and those that followed a master were his disciples.  Another way to say this is that if someone says they are a disciple of Christ and are not disciplined by what he teaches – they are a liar.

 

The Traveler

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On 6/9/2017 at 8:03 PM, brotherofJared said:

Are we not separated from God now? Is this death? Is this hell?. If it is death, why do I feel pain? If it is hell, then hell is a pretty darn good place.

By that definition, we are damned now. By that definition, then it would seem that everything but exaltation is damnation. Is that correct?

Symbolic and nuanced terms (like "death" and "hell") can sometimes be confusing to absolutist/literalist thinkers.

Thanks, -Wade Englund0

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6 hours ago, Traveler said:

There are two death - we currently suffer a spiritual death because we are separated from G-d the Father.  When Adam and Eve partoook of the fruit they did die that very same day.  We will also suffer a spiritual death and will also suffer a physical death.  The scriptures teach that death and hell will give up the dead in the “resurrection”.  As we are resurrected we will stand before G-d in the flesh (both the first and second death are overcome) – this is what is meant by the teaching that Christ has overcome death and hell.

Without the "atonement" of Christ we are damned.  and yes - without exaltation we are also damned.  There is a different meaning between damned and perdition.  The other term for damned is "bondage" which is the opposite of being free.

It is my observation that there are 3 grand steps (or choices) to freedom that if not made correctly will result in the opposite of freedom - which is bondage or being damned.  This is because there is opposition (an opposite) to all things.  So, to give more concerning my opinion the first grand step to freedom is discipline.  The opposite of discipline is the first brand step to bondage.  As you can see from my previous posts - I love words.  The word disciple and the word discipline have the same root meaning.  Thus, the term disciple of Christ is someone disciplined in the “teachings” and example of Christ.  Anciently a “master” was a teacher of discipline (it was thought anciently that learning and discipline were one in the same) and those that followed a master were his disciples.  Another way to say this is that if someone says they are a disciple of Christ and are not disciplined by what he teaches – they are a liar.

 

The Traveler

I will throw in my two cents cause Im kind of a semantics kind of guy.

There are two spiritual deaths. The first spiritual death occurs when we become accountable in mortality and sin. We then become spiritually dead. We become dead or unresponsive to the things of the spirit.  When we repent and are baptized we become born again to the things of the spirit. The Holy Ghost becomes our constant companion. We are then found spiritually alive again. Little children are alive in Christ. This means they are spiritually alive.

All men will be resurrected and brought back into Gods presence and have a perfect connection with the spirit, a perfect consciousness of all their deeds be they good or evil. Those who have repented will go into eternal "spiritual" life while the unrepentant- the wicked, will go into eternal "spiritual" death. This "second death" is an eternal spiritual death as to the things of righteousness. They are cast off forever.

Damnation always means condemnation in hell or to be condemned (future tense) to hell. Anyone who is saved into the kingdom of heaven in his many mansions receive salvation. These are saved from damnation. Salvation and damnation cannot be had at the same time. Everyone in hell is in damnation and all those who are saved outside of hell have salvation.

These terms and words are important to define correctly in order to properly understand the scriptures.

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16 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

The scriptures were written with that definition of being condemned to hell. It always means that. The question is- can you find any reference where damnation means something else? No, it doesnt exist.

Well. I guess if neither exists, then your definition is simply an assertion without evidence. I gave you mine. It appears that yours with made up out of thin air without any scriptural basis. 

Let's try this on as a basis for some scriptural support. Bible Dictionary:

The followers of Satan who will suffer with him in eternity. Sons of perdition include (1) those who followed Satan and were cast out of heaven for rebellion during premortality and (2) those who were permitted to be born to this world with physical bodies but then served Satan and turned utterly against God. Those in this second group will be resurrected from the dead but will not be redeemed from the second (spiritual) death and cannot dwell in a kingdom of glory (D&C 88:32, 35).

Outer Darkness <> Hell in the same sense as those who simply don't repent. There is a huge difference between fighting against God and rejecting Christ's atonement for themselves.

Just clarify where you get the definition that being condemned is being condemned to hell?

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16 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

I thought I gave it already. Christ cannot save the unrepentant-

4 And surely every man must repent or suffer, for I, God, am endless.
5 Wherefore, I revoke not the judgments which I shall pass, but woes shall go forth, weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth, yea, to those who are found on my left hand.
6 Nevertheless, it is not written that there shall be no end to this torment, but it is written endless torment. (D&C 19:4-6)

It's not there. Explain it so I can understand how you see it. Where does it say "outer darkness"?

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15 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

One might also take Amulek's answer to Zeezrom--God saves us from, not in, our sins.  If those who are impenitent even at the final judgment cannot be saved, then by logical elimination they must be a part of that group who go away into outer darkness.

Surely we don't imagine God setting up a kingdom--even the Telestial Kingdom--where people would spend eternity lying, stealing, fornicating, etc?  If they keep on doing things that are contrary to the nature of happiness, they won't be happy and their kingdom--whatever it is--will not be one of glory.  And if they stop doing those things, then it is because they have repented to some degree.

I believe this world is an example of the telestial worlds in the hereafter. However, living in this world, coupled with immortality, it seems that most of those "sins" will be rendered inoperative. Eternity has a way of sapping all the fun out of some sins. But, I don't know what God suffered that caused him to tremble, but I suspect that that suffering will be enough that when released into a telestial glory, that which caused them to suffer will be enough to leave the sin well enough alone. I'll leave the where, when, and how those things will be accomplished to God.

Your last statement seems to allude to a sense that ceasing from sin is the same as repentance and therefore, by default, they take some of Christ's atonement and thus justify their graduation to a telestial glory? I'm not sure what you were trying to say.

My position is rejecting Christ's atonement for themselves is not grounds for outer darkness and that anything other than the Celestial Kingdom is damnation. Further, I believe people will choose another weight of glory simply because they don't want to live the kind of life that God lives.

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14 hours ago, Traveler said:

There are two death - we currently suffer a spiritual death because we are separated from G-d the Father.  When Adam and Eve partoook of the fruit they did die that very same day.  We will also suffer a spiritual death and will also suffer a physical death.  The scriptures teach that death and hell will give up the dead in the “resurrection”.  As we are resurrected we will stand before G-d in the flesh (both the first and second death are overcome) – this is what is meant by the teaching that Christ has overcome death and hell.

Without the "atonement" of Christ we are damned.  and yes - without exaltation we are also damned.  There is a different meaning between damned and perdition.  The other term for damned is "bondage" which is the opposite of being free.

I am under the impression that we are supposed to be talking about our condition after the resurrection. We are not damned now because Christ has already redeemed us. We are bound only by mortality and our actions. That's why this is a probationary state. It is the only period in the eternities where we can make mistakes (without suffering eternal consequences for those mistakes) and correct our course. After the resurrection and judgment, our condition will be permanent. 

My point here is that our present condition is not damnation even though we are limited or bound. Our present condition is simply probation where judgment is suspended. With the definition you associate with damnation as being limited or bound, that would include those who enter the Celestial Kingdom but are not exalted. They live in the constant presence of God and His Son. I don't see how that could be considered damnation.

 

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6 hours ago, brotherofJared said:

Your last statement seems to allude to a sense that ceasing from sin is the same as repentance and therefore, by default, they take some of Christ's atonement and thus justify their graduation to a telestial glory? I'm not sure what you were trying to say.

My position is rejecting Christ's atonement for themselves is not grounds for outer darkness and that anything other than the Celestial Kingdom is damnation. Further, I believe people will choose another weight of glory simply because they don't want to live the kind of life that God lives.

In its most generic sense, "repentance" simply means "change".  Surely "repenting" out of faith in Christ, is different than (and far superior to) repenting out of the knowledge/fear of Christ that all will have at judgment day--but it is repentance nonetheless; as opposed to the sons of perdition who know exactly who and what Christ is and want no portion in Him, choosing instead to fight Him as long as they have power to do so.  Do these latecomers "justify" for themselves a "reward" in the Telestial Kingdom?  That verbiage makes me uncomfortable.  I would rather say that once their acceptance of Christ cleanses their past misdeeds and their very natures, leading them to stop doing the things that are contrary to the nature of happiness, some modicum of peace and happiness is the inevitable result; and that state is what scripture calls the Telestial Kingdom.

Can we still call that "damnation"?  Sure; in the relative sense that this state of existence--blessed as it is--simply isn't what we were created to do or be.  And though I go back and forth on this, at present I am inclined to agree with you that a surprising number of people will determine for themselves that they just aren't cut out for exaltation and will content themselves with a lesser glory.

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7 hours ago, brotherofJared said:

Well. I guess if neither exists, then your definition is simply an assertion without evidence. I gave you mine. It appears that yours with made up out of thin air without any scriptural basis. 

Let's try this on as a basis for some scriptural support. Bible Dictionary:

The followers of Satan who will suffer with him in eternity. Sons of perdition include (1) those who followed Satan and were cast out of heaven for rebellion during premortality and (2) those who were permitted to be born to this world with physical bodies but then served Satan and turned utterly against God. Those in this second group will be resurrected from the dead but will not be redeemed from the second (spiritual) death and cannot dwell in a kingdom of glory (D&C 88:32, 35).

Outer Darkness <> Hell in the same sense as those who simply don't repent. There is a huge difference between fighting against God and rejecting Christ's atonement for themselves.

Just clarify where you get the definition that being condemned is being condemned to hell?

4 Behold, I say unto you that ye would be more miserable to dwell with a holy and just God, under a consciousness of your filthiness before him, than ye would to dwell with the damned souls in hell.(Mormon 9:4)

This is the typical meaning of damnation in the scriptures. Whenever we come accross this word or form of it it always means the condemnation of hell.

Here is another-

74 Verily, verily, I say unto you, they who believe not on your words, and are not baptized in water in my name, for the remission of their sins, that they may receive the Holy Ghost, shall be damned, and shall not come into my Father’s kingdom where my Father and I am. (D&C 84:74)

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7 hours ago, brotherofJared said:

It's not there. Explain it so I can understand how you see it. Where does it say "outer darkness"?

27 And the righteous shall be gathered on my right hand unto eternal life; and the wicked on my left hand will I be ashamed to own before the Father;
28 Wherefore I will say unto them—Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels. (D&C 29:27-28)

Outer darkness and hell are the same thing. The unrepentant are all found on the left hand to go into this "endless torment" spoken of in the scriptures I quoted from section 19

4 And surely every man must repent or suffer, for I, God, am endless.
5 Wherefore, I revoke not the judgments which I shall pass, but woes shall go forth, weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth, yea, to those who are found on my left hand.
6 Nevertheless, it is not written that there shall be no end to this torment, but it is written endless torment. (D&C 19:4-6)

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12 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

4 Behold, I say unto you that ye would be more miserable to dwell with a holy and just God, under a consciousness of your filthiness before him, than ye would to dwell with the damned souls in hell.(Mormon 9:4)

Compare and contrast. There is no statement of where one will dwell, only that one would be more miserable in one place than they would the other.

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12 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

74 Verily, verily, I say unto you, they who believe not on your words, and are not baptized in water in my name, for the remission of their sins, that they may receive the Holy Ghost, shall be damned, and shall not come into my Father’s kingdom where my Father and I am. (D&C 84:74)

Hell isn't even in this statement. It doesn't even remotely agree with what you're suggesting. Do you have any other verses that might agree with your point of view? These don't.

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1 hour ago, brotherofJared said:

Hell isn't even in this statement. It doesn't even remotely agree with what you're suggesting. Do you have any other verses that might agree with your point of view? These don't.

Not sure how to spell it out for you bud. 

11 If they be good, to the resurrection of endless life and happiness; and if they be evil, to the resurrection of endless damnation, being delivered up to the devil, who hath subjected them, which is damnation (Mosiah 16:11)

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19 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Not sure how to spell it out for you bud. 

11 If they be good, to the resurrection of endless life and happiness; and if they be evil, to the resurrection of endless damnation, being delivered up to the devil, who hath subjected them, which is damnation (Mosiah 16:11)

I'm not sure you can. Live is not good or evil only. But please, keep trying.

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15 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

In its most generic sense, "repentance" simply means "change".  Surely "repenting" out of faith in Christ, is different than (and far superior to) repenting out of the knowledge/fear of Christ that all will have at judgment day--but it is repentance nonetheless; as opposed to the sons of perdition who know exactly who and what Christ is and want no portion in Him, choosing instead to fight Him as long as they have power to do so.

Ok. I'll by that. But those who suffer, do so in hell and when they repent/change, they can obtain a telestial glory. Right?

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15 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

Do these latecomers "justify" for themselves a "reward" in the Telestial Kingdom?  That verbiage makes me uncomfortable.

What part? Justify and reward? Where else will they go?

15 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

 I would rather say that once their acceptance of Christ cleanses their past misdeeds and their very natures, leading them to stop doing the things that are contrary to the nature of happiness, some modicum of peace and happiness is the inevitable result; and that state is what scripture calls the Telestial Kingdom.

 

I'm guessing the idea here is that no one can save themselves and that's what makes you feel uncomfortable? That the Telestial Kingdom is a type of salvation. It works out the same in the end, doesn't it? None of us would ever have the chance for any kind of salvation without Christ. Am I to understand that their suffering is a way to force salvation on those who don't want it? Wouldn't that mean that they are being punished for not accepting Christ or his atonement? Is it not possible to just pay for our own sins? (Paying for our sins is not the same as works based salvation. These people aren't being good. They are suffering for their sins. There is a difference).

Please remember that the resurrection, which enables all mankind to be restored, spirit and element. Man cannot possibly accomplish that alone, but being restored means that those who are resurrected must go some place and those who refuse Christ's atonement shouldn't warrant outer darkness forever. I don't believe the Telestial Kingdom is any kind of salvation, but it is better than no glory at all. Those who obtain this kingdom are evil wicked men whose deeds were evil. We're not talking skipping church or smoking or throwing a frozen turkey through the windshield of a car. I can see a lot of people in this kingdom would refuse Christ and yet still not be a son of Perdition.

 

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7 hours ago, brotherofJared said:

What part? Justify and reward? Where else will they go?

I'm guessing the idea here is that no one can save themselves and that's what makes you feel uncomfortable? That the Telestial Kingdom is a type of salvation. It works out the same in the end, doesn't it? None of us would ever have the chance for any kind of salvation without Christ. Am I to understand that their suffering is a way to force salvation on those who don't want it? Wouldn't that mean that they are being punished for not accepting Christ or his atonement? Is it not possible to just pay for our own sins? (Paying for our sins is not the same as works based salvation. These people aren't being good. They are suffering for their sins. There is a difference).

Please remember that the resurrection, which enables all mankind to be restored, spirit and element. Man cannot possibly accomplish that alone, but being restored means that those who are resurrected must go some place and those who refuse Christ's atonement shouldn't warrant outer darkness forever. I don't believe the Telestial Kingdom is any kind of salvation, but it is better than no glory at all. Those who obtain this kingdom are evil wicked men whose deeds were evil. We're not talking skipping church or smoking or throwing a frozen turkey through the windshield of a car. I can see a lot of people in this kingdom would refuse Christ and yet still not be a son of Perdition.

 

It makes no sense for someone to be saved from hell and yet still deny Christ.

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2 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

It makes no sense for someone to be saved from hell and yet still deny Christ.

 

The time will come when no one will deny the Christ – “Every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is the Christ”.    Even the lost souls that follow Satan know Jesus is the Christ and fear and tremble.

 

The Traveler

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2 hours ago, Traveler said:

 

The time will come when no one will deny the Christ – “Every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is the Christ”.    Even the lost souls that follow Satan know Jesus is the Christ and fear and tremble.

 

The Traveler

I mean it in the unrepentant who deny or refuse to repent and accept Christ and his gospel.

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7 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

It makes no sense for someone to be saved from hell and yet still deny Christ.

It makes no sense for someone to be consigned to hell forever who is not a Son of Perdition. Maybe these are the people who are stuck in limbo. Jesus must have forgotten about them. You realize that everyone in the telestial kingdom has denied Christ? Take a look at the list of people who end up there. These aren't church goers.

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7 hours ago, brotherofJared said:

It makes no sense for someone to be consigned to hell forever who is not a Son of Perdition. Maybe these are the people who are stuck in limbo. Jesus must have forgotten about them. You realize that everyone in the telestial kingdom has denied Christ? Take a look at the list of people who end up there. These aren't church goers.

Well, in the end you either have sons of God or sons of perdition.

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On ‎6‎/‎12‎/‎2017 at 1:54 AM, brotherofJared said:

I am under the impression that we are supposed to be talking about our condition after the resurrection. We are not damned now because Christ has already redeemed us. We are bound only by mortality and our actions. That's why this is a probationary state. It is the only period in the eternities where we can make mistakes (without suffering eternal consequences for those mistakes) and correct our course. After the resurrection and judgment, our condition will be permanent. 

My point here is that our present condition is not damnation even though we are limited or bound. Our present condition is simply probation where judgment is suspended. With the definition you associate with damnation as being limited or bound, that would include those who enter the Celestial Kingdom but are not exalted. They live in the constant presence of God and His Son. I don't see how that could be considered damnation.

 

We are limited and bounded in our present state - and our future state is not under our control - we are dependent and that to me means damned.  We have hope of being set free - sometime in the future but until then our condition and experience is that of a damned soul.  That we may learn the good from the evil - and have knowledge.

 

The Traveler

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On ‎6‎/‎13‎/‎2017 at 0:31 PM, Rob Osborn said:

I mean it in the unrepentant who deny or refuse to repent and accept Christ and his gospel.

I have no idea what you are talking about - what knee will not bow in the end and admit the Christ?  Is there some element of "Pride" in your post that has convinced you that you are forgiven and someone else with tears in their eyes – begging for forgiveness will not be forgiven?

It is my honest belief that there will never come a time when G-d will force someone into a “place” that they have not chosen for themselves through the deepest desires of their soul and thank the G-d that so allowed it.  I reject the notion that believing in Christ makes a person less responsible for what they personally love and how they behave in this mortal existence.  I actually believe that those that believe in Christ will be held to a higher standard when they meet G-d.  And in essence have less to brag about and should be careful in condemning others.  If they are not careful they will begin to love condemning and find such evil practice an element of personal joy.

 

The Traveler

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