Poll on The Plan of Salvation/ Kingdom of Heaven


Plan of salvation/ three degrees of glory  

16 members have voted

  1. 1. Do you think our teachings on the plan of salvation and the three degrees of glory is perfectly clear?

    • 100% correct
      5
    • Mostly correct
      8
    • Not really
      3
  2. 2. Do you think the Book of Mormon, D&C and the temple endowment work in perfect harmony to explain the complete plan of salvation?

    • Yes, no problems, perfect harmony
      5
    • Mostly but some areas still a mystery
      10
    • Not really, its rather confusing to me
      1
  3. 3. Do you think its perfectly clear what qualifications are required to be saved?

    • Yes, its perfectly clear
      10
    • Mostly, but still somewhat confused
      3
    • Not really, too many vague areas
      3


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A poll in this regard (as is often the case) is insufficient because it doesn't include all the potential answers/options and is, therefore, leading and ultimately inaccurate. The poll, itself, implies things. Not to mention that the first question speaks of clarity and then the answers are about correctness. Very different things.

Edited by The Folk Prophet
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2 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

A poll in this regard (as is often the case) is insufficient because it doesn't include all the potential answers/options and is, therefore, leading and ultimately inaccurate. The poll, itself, implies things. Not to mention that the first question speaks of clarity and then the answers are about correctness. Very different things.

I was thinking the same thing as I read the questions.  I'm glad you were able to articulate it so well.

I was reading Alma 34-38 this morning.  It provides valuable insight to what the Book of Mormon prophets knew at the time.  They didn't even know if there was a first, second, third resurrection.  He simply said,"It mattereth not."  So, Alma didn't know.  If he didn't know about the multiple resurrections doctrine (which is abundantly clear in latter-day revelation) then it seems pretty obvious that he didn't really know about the 3-degrees of glory.

Yet, he provides insight as to why there is no progression between kingdoms or even the train wheels metaphor is wrong.  I found it to be very enlightening.

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7 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

It provides valuable insight to what the Book of Mormon prophets knew at the time.

Why would you, or anyone for that matter, assume that Alma's knowledge at a specific point represents everything known or not known by all the prophets in the Book of Mormon?

7 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

I was reading Alma 34-38...

...He simply said,"It mattereth not."  

which is in Alma 40.  :P

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3 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

Im curious as to taking a poll on how confortable everyone is with the teachings regarding our unique plan of salvation.

 

I agree with @The Folk Prophet and @Carborendum – the poll is misleading.  I am thinking that the way the questions are given; that you are uncomfortable with your understanding of the Plan of Salvation.

Something others may find of interest concerning the Great Plan of Salvation is how the account of the Creation as given in revelation applies to the Plan of Salvation – why do we need to understand this symbolic revelation and why is there very little scriptural explanation of the creation symbolism.

 

The Traveler

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1 hour ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Why would you, or anyone for that matter, assume that Alma's knowledge at a specific point represents everything known or not known by all the prophets in the Book of Mormon?

I didn't.  That was my point.

Rob's premise lies in believing that all prophets all had the same knowledge of all things regardless of dispensation.  This passage shows that assumption to be incorrect.

1 hour ago, The Folk Prophet said:

which is in Alma 40.  :P

Gawrsh!  I guess I read farther than I thought.

Edited by Guest
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I read the title and I thought "Oh so now we are voting on truth??" X)

but im still curious... what aspects of the gospel do not line up with the plan of salvation?? To me it seems clear how EVERYTHING taught and revealed to us is to assist us in making it through the plan

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So, for the sake of conversation, here are my answers:

Do you think our teachings on the plan of salvation and the three degrees of glory is perfectly clear?

Perfectly clear? No. Clear enough? Yes.

Sub-implied question: Do you think our teachings on the plan of salvation and the three degrees of glory is perfectly correct?

Yes.(Edit: Basically at least. At least insofar as it matters to our practical needs for choice and action).

(Edit 2: rather, the scriptural teachings are correct. The understanding of them isn't always perfect, nor could it be by any who have not had it directly revealed to them).

Do you think the Book of Mormon, D&C and the temple endowment work in perfect harmony to explain the complete plan of salvation?

Depends on what one means by "complete". They certainly work in harmony ("perfect" is a subjective term in this case) to teach what's important for us to know about the plan of salvation. Though a very, very, very important component is left out of the question. We have living prophets and apostles to guide us in these matters.

Do you think its perfectly clear what qualifications are required to be saved?

Yes.

 

Edited by The Folk Prophet
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3 minutes ago, Fether said:

For those who didn't put "perfectly clear" for any of the Qs, may I ask why? I do not ask in a "greater than thou" tone, in genuinely curious.

Nothing in writing is "perfectly clear".  So, any "perfect" knowledge would have to come through the Spirit.  And I don't have a "perfect" knowledge of anything.

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42 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Nothing in writing is "perfectly clear".  So, any "perfect" knowledge would have to come through the Spirit.  And I don't have a "perfect" knowledge of anything.

Let me rephrase...

What found in the Book of Mormon or the revealed plan of salvation isn't sufficiently clear or causes you to not check "perfectly clear" or "100% understand"

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1 hour ago, Fether said:

For those who didn't put "perfectly clear" for any of the Qs, may I ask why? I do not ask in a "greater than thou" tone, in genuinely curious.

I didn't choose "perfectly clear" for the first two options because there's still room for revelation (see 9th Article of Faith).

In retrospect, I probably should have put "perfectly clear" for the last question, but didn't because I found the question unclear. Taking the question out of context, yes, the qualifications for salvation are clear. However, the context of the other two questions led me to believe they were asking about "exaltation," which are mostly clear to my understanding.

(I see salvation as being saved from everlasting death while exaltation is being exalted and living with our Father in heaven. Two different things.)

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2 hours ago, Fether said:

Let me rephrase...

What found in the Book of Mormon or the revealed plan of salvation isn't sufficiently clear or causes you to not check "perfectly clear" or "100% understand"

A talented cross-examiner can always push you to the end of your "knowledge" and reveal the gaps of your understanding, no matter how thoroughly you know the subject matter.  So for my part, just being a weaselly lawyer, I typically try to avoid speaking in absolutes like "perfectly clear", "absolutely certain", etc.

I would agree with @The Folk Prophet's answers, with a caveat:  frankly, I haven't exhaustively reviewed the Church's official manuals to pin down what the "orthodox" position is.  My sense is that in class discussions we tend to over-emphasize the kingdoms of glory as "places", rather than the "states of being" that I think 1 Cor 15/ D&C 76 actually describe.  But I'm really not sure whether that misapprehension comes *because of* or *in spite of* the Church curriculum committee's best efforts.  I don't tend to rove about looking for reasons to damn the Church--it gives us the building blocks, we have the scriptures, we have the Holy Spirit and revelation; we'll all get there in the end--if we want to.

Edited by Just_A_Guy
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8 hours ago, Carborendum said:

I was thinking the same thing as I read the questions.  I'm glad you were able to articulate it so well.

I was reading Alma 34-38 this morning.  It provides valuable insight to what the Book of Mormon prophets knew at the time.  They didn't even know if there was a first, second, third resurrection.  He simply said,"It mattereth not."  So, Alma didn't know.  If he didn't know about the multiple resurrections doctrine (which is abundantly clear in latter-day revelation) then it seems pretty obvious that he didn't really know about the 3-degrees of glory.

Yet, he provides insight as to why there is no progression between kingdoms or even the train wheels metaphor is wrong.  I found it to be very enlightening.

I dont see where you are getting the no progression between kingdons from reading Alma. They only believed in one physical heaven and one physical hell.

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3 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Is understanding the three degrees of glory important?

Not neccesarily... Alvin Smith never understood it, yet he is in the Celestial Kingdom. 

 

4 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

A talented cross-examiner can always push you to the end of your "knowledge" and reveal the gaps of your understanding, no matter how thoroughly you know the subject matter.  So for my part, just being a weaselly lawyer, I typically try to avoid speaking in absolutes like "perfectly clear", "absolutely certain", etc.

I understand. I guess in that sense you are right to answer that way. it isn't perfectly clear for anyone, but rather we understand enough to ease our own consciences on the matter. For me it is a peace knowing that if I do get to the end of my knowledge, I have faith that someone with greater wisdom and knowledge out there has an answer and I don't need to fret. This gospel and this world thankfully does not operate off of what I umderstand ;)

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6 hours ago, seashmore said:

1 Cor. 15:54-55

54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

????

Can you please expound?

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7 hours ago, Fether said:

Not neccesarily... Alvin Smith never understood it, yet he is in the Celestial Kingdom. 

I am of the opinion at present that for the most faithful the knowledge is a great blessing and one of the most important revelations ever given. For many others it is a stumbling block.

I suspect that is meant to be the case.

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7 hours ago, Fether said:

I understand. I guess in that sense you are right to answer that way. it isn't perfectly clear for anyone, but rather we understand enough to ease our own consciences on the matter. For me it is a peace knowing that if I do get to the end of my knowledge, I have faith that someone with greater wisdom and knowledge out there has an answer and I don't need to fret. This gospel and this world thankfully does not operate off of what I umderstand ;)

Of course it comes down to weaselly lawyer semantic trickery to cause such problems. I'm pretty sure that most people understand the phrase "perfectly clear" to simply mean "obvious" or "you got that?" rather than feeling the need to break down the exact meaning of the word "perfect" and muddle things up. To me the question simply means "Do we have the information we need to gain exaltation?" Which is really what should have been asked.

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14 hours ago, Fether said:

Let me rephrase...

What found in the Book of Mormon or the revealed plan of salvation isn't sufficiently clear or causes you to not check "perfectly clear" or "100% understand"

I don't think you're getting the gist of my position.  I think it is pretty darn clear.  I think I do 100% understand all I need to in order to form my interpretation/opinion.  But the use of the word "perfect" in the poll above creates loaded questions.  It is essentially a gotcha question.

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11 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

I dont see where you are getting the no progression between kingdons from reading Alma. They only believed in one physical heaven and one physical hell.

Regarding one heaven and one hell: (and I echo FP's question about your usage of "physical").

We've been told countless times that we could have 100 times more knowledge revealed to us IF we were ready to receive it.  It seems apparent that previous dispensations simply weren't ready to receive knowledge of the three degrees of glory as we have been.  Even in the Joseph Smith era, the Saints had problems with this doctrine.  It seemed we were almost not ready to receive such a doctrine.  But we were blessed with this additional knowledge by the grace of God.

Alma gives signs that the Nephites were not aware of this doctrine since he didn't even know of multiple resurrections.

As far as the progress between kingdoms.  Read more about "restoration".

Edited by Guest
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47 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Regarding one heaven and one hell: (and I echo FP's question about your usage of "physical").

We've been told countless times that we could have 100 times more knowledge revealed to us IF we were ready to receive it.  It seems apparent that previous dispensations simply weren't ready to receive knowledge of the three degrees of glory as we have been.  Even in the Joseph Smith era, the Saints had problems with this doctrine.  It seemed we were almost not ready to receive such a doctrine.  But we were blessed with this additional knowledge by the grace of God.

Alma gives signs that the Nephites were not aware of this doctrine since he didn't even know of multiple resurrections.

As far as the progress between kingdoms.  Read more about "restoration".

Physical meaning one physical place where the saved go- the holy city spoken of in Revelations.

Not sure how restoration has to do with progress between kingdoms.

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