Missionary Work and Baptisms

[brotherofJared]

On 6/26/2017 at 8:09 AM, Fether said:

I have a difficulty seeing that it is faith that brings converts to the church. I do believe it plays a role, but I don't know that a fruit of faith is converts (I feel like there may be a scripture that may prove me wrong in this actually... not sure what it is though), if it was the case and it is majorly faith based, then we could conclude that there was a MAJOR faith drop between the years of 1975-1980 and also 2010-2015. I think there is a lot more at play here than just faith.

 

I think this is because it didn't appear to work for you and, based on your analysis, it sure isn't working now. The problem isn't the lack of faith or the lack of results. I made reference to the greatest growth the church had - the period when Joseph Smith was alive. Even persecution and forced exodus and harsh environments and polygamy couldn't or didn't halt the growth of the church. Was Joseph Smith that charismatic? Maybe, but it doesn't explain the success of others or success is areas of relative isolation from Joseph Smith.

The radical differences in LDS theology, some of which doesn't make any logical sense at all, and yet the saints accepted it and found some rich blessings because of it, the only explanation is faith. 

I contend that it is a drop in faith. There is a tendency to defend when there is no need to defend (or convince when we can't convince). There is a tendency to rely on the arm of flesh, our own efforts. I have seen far too many calls for a philosophy like "pray like it depends on God and work like it depends on us". But that's not how faith works. Even the idea of talking to 20 people a day is not faith based. My point isn't that we don't need to do any work, we don't need to talk to 20 people a day, we do. My point is that it is not the talking to 20 people a day that makes it work. So, just going out and doing it, expecting a baptism a week, is not exercising faith.

My example, using Joseph Smith as a prototype, faith is what increases baptisms. But how? What about his faith could we possibly hope to emulate in order produce the same results... Now I say that knowing that it would be impossible for me to do. Emulating him isn't faith, it's copying actions. It'll work, maybe not as well, but we can get a lot of mileage out of copying him. Faith is an individual thing. We have to have 80K different tailored faith examples to get things moving or, we can simply teach them how to find out for themselves what works for them. And, how do we do that? Well, we do that by removing their crutches and their grips on tradition... no more memorized discussions...

I mentioned before how the manuals are a flop, including the Preach my Gospel (believe it or not, I'm not making this up as I go). We are no longer relying on a more mature missionary go preach the gospel (this action is the exact opposite of a business engine and is the very epitome of faith in action - not the faith of the missionary, but the faith of those who called them), raising the bar is faith is the obedient having faith. So, while I poo-pooed the original three changes, it was while I was doing it that I realized they are all designed to promote faith. Is it working? Not yet. Why not? Because the missionaries don't know what to do with these new tools they've been given and their leaders know even less (they are too steeped in tradition)... think, "and a child shall lead them".

What each person needs to do is reflect on their own experience on exercising faith when it produced a positive result and use that model to expand their potential. There aren't a lot of people with those kinds of experiences so it'll be tough. But we need to stop thinking in terms of "if I do what I'm told, I'll get the reward" and start thinking in terms of "I'm not sure what the reward is, but if I do what I'm told, the way the Lord would have me do it, I will not have room enough to receive it". Of course, I am reflecting on my own experience with acting on faith with positive results.

I still say it's faith that is the primary element of success on a mission or anything we undertake in life, especially if we see faith as the power which puts belief into action. 

[brotherofJared]

On 6/26/2017 at 8:09 AM, Fether said:

Other factors: standards for baptism are FAR different than the past. I remember reading a story of a general authority rebuking missionaries for not baptizing investigators on the first lesson, then went on the tell a story of him and his companion letting a guy on his farm, he accepted the message and baptized him right there in jos back pond. My mission president also told similar stories. Today, we simply cannot do that. We have rules established by the church that state members have to come to church for 3 weeks and live the word of wisdom and law of chastity for a month before we can baptize them. There are also a serious I other factors that can delay baptism for months or even years. We simply can't baptize everyone the moment they accept the message. Not because of a lack in faith, but because of policy.

Yes. Raising the bar on converts is also faith promoting. LOL

There are a lot of dry Mormons out there. I'm reminded of an ex-con who accepted the gospel while in prison. He's been out of prison for years but is on parole. He can't be baptized yet or maybe not ever, depending on the reason he was in jail. He's a better Mormon that most Mormons I know. I also believe there are other people who are in good standing with society, but due to their occupation, they simply can't change religions though they know the church is true (which is different that what you're referring too).

The baptism a week is a result we would like to see as it indicates that we are making progress, but those who's hearts are changed, those people count just as much, even if we can't add their names to the records of the church.

Edited June 28, 2017 by brotherofJared