Missionary Work and Baptisms


Fether
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I'm sure this is not an original post thought, but I thought it would be worth while to talk about. In here I am doing two things. 1) satisfying a personal question I have had for a while, and 2) sharing some stats and numbers that tell and interesting story about missionary work.

The first two sections are just back story. My really questions and thoughts are in the third section titled "Missionary and Elect Ratio". 

I was driving home from my cousin's home coming talk and I began pondering on my own mission. I started thinking about how interesting the baptism culture in the church and on the mission is and began to question if it is good/true.

MISSION EXPERIENCE

I remember being taught constantly that if I (a) Talked to 20 people a day, (b) was exactly obedient, and (c) Did companion study every day, I would baptize monthly (or transferly). I always had an uneasy feeling with those promises and never really knew why until towards the end of my mission. I would apply those things, talking to anywhere between 20-40 people a day, someday up to 60 (and over 400 when the Kentucky Derby rolled through Louisville). We did companion study, and strove to be exactly obedient and repenting all the while.

There were a few quotes from general authorities that hint at this such as:

"I had an assistant who used to say, “If you want to baptize a few people you talk to a fewpeople, if you want to baptize a lot of people you talk to a lot of people and if you want to baptize everyone you can, talk to everyone you can""(Tad R. Canister) 

and

"I promise you in the name of the Lord that if you and your companion will each talk to ten people every day about the gospel-independent of tractibg or other teaching settings-you will double your baptisms" (Elder Ballard)

And

a quote from Elder Holland that explicitly says that we have the tools we need to baptize monthly, that it isn't an unrealistic goal. I can't find it in my mission stuff... but it is really x) most missionaries had it hanging in their apartments.

The first year of my mission I saw 0 baptisms (which Elder Ballard's promise of doubling baptisms would t fix) That, coupled with the bombardment of promises that you will baptize monthly if you do a,b, and c was bringing great stress and confusion to my life (as well as quite a bit of bitterness). I became even more skeptical of the promise when we were told by our mission president that every one of our mission experiences are specially catered to our spiritual needs (which the spirit strongly confirmed to me was true). I eventually began repenting of the pride I felt about the baptism subject, but it always made at the back of my mind.

The last half of my mission was drastically different in that I saw many baptisms and even brought an entire family of what I felt were strong kingdom builders (getting sealed here soon too :) )to the gospel, I accomplished the elusive "baptize monthly" promise for 6 months, then back to my dry spell till the end of my mission.

FINDING THE ELECT

During my mission, on multiple occasions, I would talk openly to leaders about the promise and my doubts with it. I received many different reactions ranging from "thou child of hell!" To "I totally agree!". Eventually, the whole mission began to stray away from the "you will baptize" promise and began promising more doctrinally supported promises such as "you will find greater joy", "Your desire to serve will increase", "you will find more people to teach.". Eventually the promise that you will baptize disappeared and our mission began facing toward magnifying and fulfilling all we are asked to do and to seek out the elect.

Elder Kapischke of the 70 came and gave a fantastic conference on the doctrine of pre-earth life, foreordination the the gospel and the priesthood, and who we are really looking for. We read out of Alma 13, Ephesians 1 and Abraham 3. All of which talk about foreordination and how our decisions of pre-earth life effects what kind of family we are born into (most of our patriarchal blessings back this up when they say "because of your decisions in premortal life, you were placed in this family).

Essentially we were told to drop investigators that wouldn't progress, that the elect would know the truth when they heard it (D+C 29:7). This all of course while following promptings of the spirit on what courses to take with individual investigators.

MISSIONARY AND ELECT RATIO

the following are thoughts I gathered about the idea of baptiIntmonthly and how I don't see how it could work.

I found this article today after I got home and found it very interesting - https://www.google.com/amp/s/bycommonconsent.com/2015/04/04/20-years-of-statistical-reports-visualized-ldsconf/amp/ . It inspired me to do my own research so I went through the statistical reports every 5 years since 1970 and made 3 points of data.

1) Full Time Missionaries

2) Convert Baptisms

3) Baptisms per missionary (written above Full Time Missionary points for each year)

Im not sure how the missionary program worked in the 70s, so I won't make comments on the data I found.

But as you see, as missionary count increases, baptisms per missionary drops drastically in some cases. It is almost cut in half after the age change.

Along with that, since 1990 convert baptisms has been dropping. And since 2000 it has stayed relatively the same.

CONCLUSION

The amount of elect in the world is not changing. Those willing to accept the gospel remains the same and no matter how many missionaries we pump out, we will no rise too far above 300,000 converts a year (adjust accordingly to current population). It is basic economics. Why hire 50 people to pick 100 trees for 8 hours when you can hire 25 to do the same job in 8 hours. 

Im not suggesting that we cut back missionary force because there are SOO many other benefits besides converts, in just showing that it just may not make sense to suggest that we can baptize monthly. I don't believe it is a lack of faith, but rather a re-centering of faith from amount of baptisms to centering it in christ and having faith that your work is as fruitful as it needs to be (fruit being more than just baptisms).

This also lines up well with scripture!

Jeremiah 16:16 says God will first send fishers (cast nets and father in large amounts at a time). We see this in the New Testament and in the early stages of the restoration. But today we are hunting them one by one "from every mountain, and from every hill, and out of the holes of the rocks."

Secondly, 1 Nephi 15 and D+C 45:19-30 talks about first the Jews accepting the gospel (pre Cornelius in the NT), then to the gentiles (post Cornelius) and then the gentiles will reject it and it will go back to the jews (has not happened yet).  The D+C Student manual talks extensively about this (https://www.lds.org/manual/doctrine-and-covenants-student-manual/section-41-49/section-45-looking-forth-for-the-great-day-of-the-lord?lang=eng)

it appears that the gentiles are now slowly rejecting it and we are going to shift our missionary gaze to the lost tribes and the Jews... won't say when though cause I don't know x).

So ya! I don't think it is right to suggest a missionary will baptize monthly if they reach a certain standard of righteousness. Seeing that missionary number have drastically risen since 1980 and the baptisms don't necessarily follow, and in many cases and they drop as missionary size grows. I don't see how it lines up with scripture or with God's plan for us.

I would be happy to hear from anyone who suggests there is a flaw in what I've shared :)

 

 

GRAPH KEY:

Blue line is missionaries serving

green line is convert baptisms.

The number above the blue line is the baptisms per missionary

IMG_2440.JPG

Edited by Fether
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Am I right that the green line is convert baptisms?  And is the blue line is baptisms/missionary?  And if so, what are the numbers above the blue line?  They don't seem to correspond to the height of the blue line (the numbers aren't going consistently up / down with the line - unless maybe it's on some kind of sliding scale relative to the green line?).

Your thoughts are interesting at the least.

PS: Does "año" mean your native language is Spanish, or do you just like "ñ"? :)

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@zil

Blue line is missionaries serving

green line is convert baptisms.

The number above the blue line is the baptisms per missionary

my wife and I know Spanish and try to use to whenever we can x)

Edited by Fether
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19 minutes ago, zil said:

Got it!  Now it makes sense. :)

K good :) I get confused sometimes when I look back at it too x) the link I gave to the google article provides more grapid and info, but for a 20 year time period.

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I think what you say makes perfect sense.  I actually agree with you.

HOWEVER, it is not the same thing I'd say to a missionary currently serving.  While I might not make promises, I would probably tell them to work hard and that by working hard they have a better chance at baptizing.

When I served a mission, we had similar promises given to us.  Now, at the time I was in one of the lowest baptizing missions, and that meant my current baptisms per month was also zero (and I think the entire mission had an average of 10-15 baptisms total each month, or it might have been yearly...it was VERY low comparatively to other missions at the time).  Well, I went on a contacting and working frenzy.  I tried to do what they asked to the best of my ability.  Now, I didn't have a ton of baptisms, and our baptisms didn't double (if you double zero, it is still zero), but we finally DID have a baptism. 

Hard work cannot be discounted, and encouraging missionaries to go out there and proselyte cannot be underestimated.  It is their mission at that time, to proselyte and convert. 

Obedience brings blessings, and though it may not be baptisms, it can help develop their own strength in the gospel and build their testimonies to levels they could never imagine.

I have never been a Mission President, and may never be one, but I think that in working with 18 and 19 year olds, if I simply said to work hard and it will help you...it is not going to encourage as many as if I phrased it differently.

When one uses a number, such as, go out and talk to 20 people every day, and your other numbers such as discussions and baptisms will likewise increase, it is something tangible that they can look at and say...hey, I can do that.  Then, they go through the day and count up to 20 as they contact 20 different people.  It gives them something tangible that they can work towards. 

Now, I, of myself, would be more hesitant to promise something like a guaranteed baptism, but then, I'm not a Mission President who has that spirit for their mission who may have the spirit revel that something like that may occur.  Of myself, it may take a great deal to convince me to make any sort of promise like that, but as far as numbers in contacting, or goals with discussions, I can see how that can inspire and motivate young men that are still in their late teens far more than promises of testimony growth and personal enlightenment.

That's probably just me speaking. 

However, I do agree with what you are saying, just not sure that is the way to motivate most teenagers that are on their missions these days.

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Your post reminds me of the position my daughter was in on her mission. During her setting apart it was made clear that she was going to be a planter rather than a harvester. On her mission, her Mission President was all about harvesting. So my daughter had to very significant figures in her church life basically telling her two things that were the opposite of each other. This was something she struggled with for much of her mission. Only one of these leaders could be right and in the end if ended up being the one who had set her apart. 

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@JohnsonJones

It is interesting. In my case, it provided motivation, stress, and a drive to understand why things weren't happening the way they were being promised.

By the time I came to the conclusion that maybe the promises weren't... well... promises... I found a more pure motivation. I no longer required a reward for my diligent service. I worked hard and joyfully and did so completely without sorrow when baptisms didn't come.

In fact the happiest time of my mission was a time when I was in a highly populated area and literally talking with the amount of people a large district would talk to a week. Never got close to baptizing a single person in that area. I found joy in the work and not in the reward :)

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5 minutes ago, askandanswer said:

Your post reminds me of the position my daughter was in on her mission. During her setting apart it was made clear that she was going to be a planter rather than a harvester. On her mission, her Mission President was all about harvesting. So my daughter had to very significant figures in her church life basically telling her two things that were the opposite of each other. This was something she struggled with for much of her mission. Only one of these leaders could be right and in the end if ended up being the one who had set her apart. 

There are a special few that do find a TON of baptism. A particular missionary in my mission baptized every month of his mission, another baptized 42 (Most baptized 5-12), and another baptized double the amount I did in half the time. One of these missionaries was exactly obedient his whole mission, another had a change of heart half way through, and the 3rd never once followed the missionary schedule, lax on rules and is now less active.

The question no missionary wants to address is "Why does this happen?" 

The answer is simple. God's work is God's work and our reward is not found in Earth, but in Heaven :) The greatest reward for service is a mighty change of heart and I believe that is what God intends for all of his children in any service he calls them to.

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You have touched on a great many issues that are pertinent to the current missionary effort. My sense has been what your statistics seem to bear out. That baptisms per missionary are down. 

This can lead to discouragement and "promises" made by GAs or mission presidents that are not realized only put pressure on good people that somehow are not good enough, despite best efforts. 

The 80-20 rule is operative for missionaries just as in real life. Some people are just better at the work than others and will have more success. 

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I served in the peak baptism years.  I also served in a tough mission.  While some of my friends were baptizing in the dozens. I had about 6 converts.  I firmly believe that there are two kinds of investigators.  Those who are wasting missionary time, and those who are golden. Every baptism was with a family who on the first discussion was willing to be baptized (after learning more).  One convert family came from a woman who showed up to church with her daughter and said, "Hi, I read the Book of Mormon, and I want to join the church...  What do I do?"  A missionary's priority is to find those people, and you have to weed a lot to find them. 

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Also, I think guidance from the Holy Ghost is critical to finding golden investigators.  The unrighteous missionary isn't the one not following the rules, per say, but the one who wastes his time, either goofing off, or spending time with comfortable members/investigators.  Tracting and street contacting was our best tool, even though every missionary hated it.

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On 6/22/2017 at 11:31 PM, bytebear said:

I served in the peak baptism years.  I also served in a tough mission.  While some of my friends were baptizing in the dozens. I had about 6 converts.  I firmly believe that there are two kinds of investigators.  Those who are wasting missionary time, and those who are golden. Every baptism was with a family who on the first discussion was willing to be baptized (after learning more).  One convert family came from a woman who showed up to church with her daughter and said, "Hi, I read the Book of Mormon, and I want to join the church...  What do I do?"  A missionary's priority is to find those people, and you have to weed a lot to find them. 

This is going to shift mission to mission. A friend of mine served in South America and said they would never teach her anyone who didn't accept baptism upon first contact. He wouldn't tell us how many he baptized in his mission, but he said it was 20 in one week.

Compare that to some other missions where it's a miracle to even get in a door. In those countries where religion is a difficult subject, it is possible that the elect, because of how they are raised, will still be hesitant on the message.

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On 6/22/2017 at 8:28 AM, mrmarklin said:

The 80-20 rule is operative for missionaries just as in real life. Some people are just better at the work than others and will have more success. 

The 80-20 rule is so true, but I'm not convinced it is about how good someone is at missionary work. I think part of the problem is seeing baptisms like commision based sales. Car salesmen, VIVINT, Pest Control and Solar Power companies all pay employees based off of their ability to sell.

If we can remove the mentality that your reward for being a good missionary is baptisms, we will find more effective and happy missionaries :) 

will there be more baptisms??? I don't know, We aren't "selling" a religion, we are gathering the elect.

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On 6/19/2017 at 0:18 AM, Fether said:

I'm sure this is not an original post thought, but I thought it would be worth while to talk about. In here I am doing two things. 1) satisfying a personal question I have had for a while, and 2) sharing some stats and numbers that tell and interesting story about missionary work.

I believe your leaders’ promises were true. As a tree does not bear fruit continuously all year round, so are these promises not fulfilled every day of one’s mission. Jacob 5 is about something else, but shows how much work and failures go into bearing the final, promised fruit.

So I think those who had doubts about these promises did not have a full understanding of how promises are fulfilled, which can only be gotten through experience, which can only be gotten through faith (and endurance).

Another principle I have learned, from personal experience and application in my own life, is that people who are not elect can become elect, just as people who are not of Abraham can be adopted into Abraham.

Thank you for sharing your aims and research!

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Oh boy. It seems I cannot say anything in any thread here that will not create controversy. 

First, they tell you to work because if you don't, it will be difficult to get baptisms. The leaders were just playing the numbers game, but some places are so controlled by Satan that "breaking" the barrier can only be done by pushing through the pain, like a woman in labor. Interesting reading is the missionary efforts in England when it was first opened. It gives great insight into loosening the grip Luicifer holds over the minds of men to blind them.

Second, The fantastic work that was done in the early days was in no small part, directly attributed to the faith that Joseph Smith had. Converts were coming to him, case in point, Oliver Cowdery. That kind of faith cannot fail. It isn't found very often in young missionaries. Very few will find it without some travail. It is quite possible that the challenge given wasn't to find baptisms as much as finding yourself. 

Third, I'm not sure who you think the Jews that the message will be carried to in the last days are, but that passage is complete. Nephi was quite clear that the reference to Jews was not just those who lived in Jerusalem but to all the house of Israel. The elect that are gathered out of the nations began in 1830ish. The gospel has been being carried to the "Jews" since that time. The Gentiles have rejected the Gospel. They have another gospel that uses the Bible, but they don't believe or follow any of its teachings.

I agree with you, it is not quantity that gets the work done. It is quality, but finding the quality comes in playing the numbers, so to speak. The work has increased, not to get more baptisms, but instead, it is to prepare the people who have already accepted it to meet their God. Missions condition the missionary as much as they do anything else (which is a factor that I believe you were referring too). 

Statistics and analysis can appear to be embarrassing for the church because the opposite of what we'd like to see if we were running a board of directors who are working for a profit. 25 can do the work of 50 for less is a great idea. But we are working for a prophet, who doesn't see things in the measure of efficiency or statistics. It may be scary for him to make a call. I'm sure they look at probability factors when they make decisions like this, but in the end, the call isn't about efficiency or return on investment. It's about preparing us to meet the bridge groom. I believe, before these missionaries are dead, they will stand in the presence of Christ and meet him face to face. 

The Jews at Jerusalem can't be the Jews in which the gospel will be taken too. Those Jews will be ignorant up until and including the day that the resurrected Christ shall set his foot on the Mount of Olives, a grand entry that will be too. And on that day, they will say, what are these wounds in your hands and feet. And then shall they know... the gospel will be taken to them by Christ himself.

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7 hours ago, brotherofJared said:

Oh boy. It seems I cannot say anything in any thread here that will not create controversy. 

First, they tell you to work because if you don't, it will be difficult to get baptisms. The leaders were just playing the numbers game, but some places are so controlled by Satan that "breaking" the barrier can only be done by pushing through the pain, like a woman in labor. Interesting reading is the missionary efforts in England when it was first opened. It gives great insight into loosening the grip Luicifer holds over the minds of men to blind them.

Second, The fantastic work that was done in the early days was in no small part, directly attributed to the faith that Joseph Smith had. Converts were coming to him, case in point, Oliver Cowdery. That kind of faith cannot fail. It isn't found very often in young missionaries. Very few will find it without some travail. It is quite possible that the challenge given wasn't to find baptisms as much as finding yourself. 

Third, I'm not sure who you think the Jews that the message will be carried to in the last days are, but that passage is complete. Nephi was quite clear that the reference to Jews was not just those who lived in Jerusalem but to all the house of Israel. The elect that are gathered out of the nations began in 1830ish. The gospel has been being carried to the "Jews" since that time. The Gentiles have rejected the Gospel. They have another gospel that uses the Bible, but they don't believe or follow any of its teachings.

I agree with you, it is not quantity that gets the work done. It is quality, but finding the quality comes in playing the numbers, so to speak. The work has increased, not to get more baptisms, but instead, it is to prepare the people who have already accepted it to meet their God. Missions condition the missionary as much as they do anything else (which is a factor that I believe you were referring too). 

Statistics and analysis can appear to be embarrassing for the church because the opposite of what we'd like to see if we were running a board of directors who are working for a profit. 25 can do the work of 50 for less is a great idea. But we are working for a prophet, who doesn't see things in the measure of efficiency or statistics. It may be scary for him to make a call. I'm sure they look at probability factors when they make decisions like this, but in the end, the call isn't about efficiency or return on investment. It's about preparing us to meet the bridge groom. I believe, before these missionaries are dead, they will stand in the presence of Christ and meet him face to face. 

The Jews at Jerusalem can't be the Jews in which the gospel will be taken too. Those Jews will be ignorant up until and including the day that the resurrected Christ shall set his foot on the Mount of Olives, a grand entry that will be too. And on that day, they will say, what are these wounds in your hands and feet. And then shall they know... the gospel will be taken to them by Christ himself.

1. The time of the Jews has not come yet. D+C 45:24-30 Institute manual commentary talk about how the gospel is being taken to the gentiles now and has been since Cornelius. This time will end and the gospel will then be focused on the Jews when (1) Jews are gathered in Israel (D+C 45:25), (2) a time of great turmoil, (3) Gentiles will for the most part reject the gospel (which I suspect, but won't claim, why we are seeing more consent rated effort but less growth), and (4) Jerusalem will no longer be trodden down by gentiles.

This is all straight from LDS published literature.

 

2. Elder Ballard in 2002 gave a talk titled "The Greatest Generation of Missionaries" And talks about raising the bar for missionaries (which they did). And that is why, I suspect, we see a drop in missionaries between 2000 and 2005. Between 2003-2014 we see 3 major changes. Higher expectations, Preach My Gospel published, and lowered missionary age. We also see a drop in baptisms. My question is, with these overhauls in missionary work to raise the faith and preparation of missionaries, I have a difficulty seeing that it is faith that brings converts to the church. I do believe it plays a role, but I don't know that a fruit of faith is converts (I feel like there may be a scripture that may prove me wrong in this actually... not sure what it is though), if it was the case and it is majorly faith based, then we could conclude that there was a MAJOR faith drop between the years of 1975-1980 and also 2010-2015. I think there is a lot more at play here than just faith.

3. Other factors: standards for baptism are FAR different than the past. I remember reading a story of a general authority rebuking missionaries for not baptizing investigators on the first lesson, then went on the tell a story of him and his companion letting a guy on his farm, he accepted the message and baptized him right there in jos back pond. My mission president also told similar stories. Today, we simply cannot do that. We have rules established by the church that state members have to come to church for 3 weeks and live the word of wisdom and law of chastity for a month before we can baptize them. There are also a serious I other factors that can delay baptism for months or even years. We simply can't baptize everyone the moment they accept the message. Not because of a lack in faith, but because of policy.

 

Im not complaining about the statistics, not am I worried about growth in the church. It's a simple truth that only a few will accept the fullness of the gospel (Matt 7:13-14). We are sent out to prepare people to accept the gospel, but to gather the elect of God, those that are prepared. We don't do the preparing, we do that gathering.

 

 

But... I can't consciencly post this without a follow up of stating that I'm not 100% sold on my claim.

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I've given a lot of thought to the goal setting that missionaries get that seem unrealistic and generally fail. Why do our leaders do it and why do their challenges fail? Is it the fault of the missionary or was the leader not truly inspired? This becomes a real problem when general authorities are giving the promises that don't seem to materialize. I have a return missionary friend who served in Japan. He absolutely hated it. He has refused to speak Japanese ever since he got back and hopes to lose that talent. Yesterday would not be soon enough. 

So, what happened? Why aren't the promises fulfilled?

One of the things that I think causes the problem is the preconceived notion held in the minds of our young missionaries, often placed there by stories and parents and peer expectations, that the mission is a magical place where we meet God (I'm over doing it on purpose). Then they get out on the mission and find out it's not that at all. It's real life with jerk companions and stupid rules and limitations that seem unlimited. And then that awful word: "work" comes into play. The idea that all a missionary has to do is talk to 20 people a day and they'll get baptisms is simply wrong. 

While I was out this morning, I contrived that a non-Mormon, liar, dressed in missionary garb, pretending to be a missionary could probably get more baptisms than a real missionary following those same guidelines that were set forth in the goals. Why? Because he'll do anything to get that baptism, lie, bargain, present false and fake stories like those that snopes is constantly shooting down. (btw, I've seen real missionaries do that). Why would that be? While it's hypothetical as I don't believe we could convince anyone to just go get baptisms for us any way they can, the scenario isn't unheard of. Salesmen do it all the time. Missionaries aren't salesmen, though they may feel like they are sometimes. And I know a lot of sales companies that like to use fresh returned missionaries as salesmen.

I don't really know the answer, but I believe the difference is where the foundation from which the person works is located. If it's grounded in an unreal expectation, disappointment and discouragement sets in. Thus the unethically motivated missionary who is out to get baptisms at any cost has a more realistic and centered foundation and will not be discouraged so easily. If one way doesn't work then try another. One could even convince themselves that it's right and good to "process" baptisms this way, especially when success is measured by baptisms.

I believe the idea behind establishing goals with a promise isn't that the goal makes the promise come true. Each individual is different and will approach the goal differently. Some may decide that to ignore the goal observation, don't count the tic marks, don't make tick marks, and reports success because he feels it was successful, but instead establishes a new set of goals for himself, ones that make sense to his line of thinking. These will ask God, not how to get 20 visits a day, but how to get a baptism each week. The answers will vary. It isn't going to be "talk to 20 people a day" for everyone. The idea here, again, is where is the foundation that the missionary works from...

There is no way that an apostle or a mission president can relay all this information into a lecture that will affect every missionary the same way. If a leader were to say, "find your own way to obtaining a baptism a week", mayhem would result. However, if they were to say, talk to as many people as you can and you'll get baptisms, well, that is true, isn't it? Eventually, we'll find someone we can baptize if we talk to people. We don't even know that the person is interested. In fact, sometimes the person is resistant, refusing, fighting, condemning and then when challenged they say, yes. I want to be baptized. Weirdest thing ever. I've never been able to explain it. How do we make that happen? Well, we talk to people. So, we set goals and we fail. It's frustrating and it appears that our leaders are just wrong.

---

I'm having difficulty getting from here to there. I know where I want to be, but there appears to be no bridge to get there. Sorry for the meandering, but like missionaries who labor under a sense of failure because they aren't getting the promises, there is a bridge from here to there and it is difficult to find it. I think, sometimes, two years isn't enough time. But there is a way. I know where I want to be in this monolog and I know I can personally get there. I've been there many many times. It has never been via my own efforts but has actually occurred most often when I let go and quit trying to control my environment. We actually aren't in control, we just think we are.

As I said in my previous post, faith worked miracles for Joseph Smith who seemed to attract converts like a magnet does iron. We don't control a lot of what happens in our life. Today, we might wake up and find ourselves jobless. Our car may or may not start for no apparent reason. We may find we or someone we are close to has cancer and will not live through it. We live on a rock hurling through space and somehow, we think we're in charge. The fact is, we can only learn to live in harmony with whatever happens. We didn't put this rock here, at least, not that we can remember, and yet here we are. How we get from talking to 20 people a day to getting a baptism every week is not far different from how we got here.

Faith is the bridge. It is unseen and uncertain, but we can only find it if we walk to the edge of the light we now have (talk to people) and then there, at the edge, we can obtain more light (a baptism every week), even if there is none to be had (or not a baptism every week). In my mind, the challenged to talk to people every day is a challenge to finding that bridge (we can't get to the bridge if we don't try).

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14 hours ago, Fether said:

1. The time of the Jews has not come yet. D+C 45:24-30 Institute manual commentary talk about how the gospel is being taken to the gentiles now and has been since Cornelius.

The Gospel was taken to the Gentiles from the time of Cornelius until 70AD. After that, it wasn't the gospel anymore. Do we agree on that?

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14 hours ago, Fether said:

D+C 45:24-30 Institute manual commentary talk about how the gospel is being taken to the gentiles now and has been since Cornelius.

From the institute manual: "the time of the Gentiles have continued from that time until now..." I don't see this as being the the gospel. In the second paragraph, there is this statement: "As President Smith indicated, the times that the major gospel effort would be with gentile nations continued with the Restoration." The preceding statement alluded to Paul and the other Apostles and the great missionary work. There is a gap there. It still belonged to the Gentiles, but it was not the gospel that was being taught nor was it the great missionary work that the apostles had commenced. The apostasy means there was no gospel of Jesus Christ. There was only a Bible and that's all they had.

When we see that the work continued with the Restoration, we have to consider what we mean by Gentiles. If we take the Jews interpretation of Gentile, it is everyone that is not a Jew. There is little or no effort to accept the possibility that this includes those who were carried into the north countries. If they came back and settled in Jerusalem now, they would not be accepted because they are Gentiles because they are NOT Jews, though they are Israelites. If we see it this way, the work that "continued with the Restoration" is being first brought to Gentiles, even though they are Israelites. 1 Nephi 15:18 reflects this idea, at least to me it does when it says: "Wherefore, our father hath not spoken of our seed alone, but also of all the house of Israel, pointing to the covenant which should be fulfilled in the latter days; which covenant the Lord made with our father Abraham, saying: In thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed." This latter clause speaks directly to the 10 Lost or Scattered tribes who, through that scattering infused the blood of Abraham and therefore the promise which was given to Abraham, or that the Gentiles are the scattered tribes, those who hear the word and accept it, which is also part of this revelation.

Then their are 4 signs which indicate that the time of the Gentiles are fulfilled...

1. Jews gathered to Jerusalem - check
2. Social turmoil - check
3. Gentiles reject the gospel - check (having been separated from the wheat)
4. Jerusalem no longer trodden down - check 

What's left is returning the scattered natural branches will be grafted in again. The natural branches are the ten tribes and which includes the Lamanites. The Jews, though the manual says they are part, in that the gospel will be taken, were never scattered, but have always been a people. It is apparent from the rest of the Scriptures, that Christ Himself will appear to them and reveal exactly who He is/was, that these are not included in the grafting and that they are not part of the "major efforts of gospel teaching". Literally, they will be last. Poetically, the Savior brought the gospel to them first, in person. And the first shall be last. The Savior will bring the gospel to them last, in person.

On 6/18/2017 at 9:18 PM, Fether said:

then the gentiles will reject it and it will go back to the jews (has not happened yet).

When I read this, it appeared that you were trying to say that one automatically flows into the other, as though the times of the Gentiles will be fulfilled when the gospel goes back to the Jews. The manual doesn't state that. It can't go to them until the very last part, but the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

On 6/18/2017 at 9:18 PM, Fether said:

It appears that the gentiles are now slowly rejecting it and we are going to shift our missionary gaze to the lost tribes and the Jews

This is not correct and we may shift our missionary gaze to the Jews (it's already on the lost tribes), but they will not accept it. The Gentiles have rejected it. The Gentiles, as I have described it here, are the field, in which both the tares and the wheat have been allowed to grow together. Missionary work is the effort to gather the wheat from among the tares. While they grew together, they were not discernable, one from another. As the field matures, we will be able to discern, or I should say, those who are wheat will be able to discern. This process is the harvest, the weekly promised baptism that didn't happen. But that doesn't mean that there aren't any wheat in amongst those tares.

I apologize to those who are offended when I disagree with our interpretation of scripture and events that we sometimes see in lesson manuals and come over the pulpit. I can't help it. I sometimes feel that we are staring right at the solution to a problem but resist accepting because it's "just not the way we do things around here". If it's wrong, it's wrong. When it comes to the end times, most of us don't have a clue what happens first and what happens second, or in this case, last. Why, then, does it make a difference if someone comes along and says, that piece of the puzzle doesn't go there? Does anyone here know any better? No. Not even the apostles know for sure. God said so Himself.

There is one thing I have concluded when it comes to the mysteries of God... when it happens, most people just think it was ordinary. It is explainable. It is natural. Only after looking back do we realize what has transpired. Obviously, not everything is going to happen that way. Some things are just going to stand out like a sore thumb, but for the most part, it all fits. No one knew that Christ appeared to Joseph Smith. The earth didn't stop spinning, the Sun was not turned back in the sky. The day started like any other and it ended like any other and that's the way most of these signs will be. For example. There will not literally be blood on the moon. The Sun will not literally darken and the stars will not literally throw themselves down. I, at one time, thought that this meant that the moon was going to crash into the earth, but even this would not describe the event as it is given to us. Sure, the Sun would be darkened, men's hearts would fail them and the stars would be cast down, but the moon would not turn to blood. It might get a little blood on it, but even if it smashed all 5 or 6 billion peoples on the earth, it would not turn to blood.

When I read these and ponder them, I consider the language, the context, the person telling it, the time it was told and how it could possibly manifest itself. Is it literal or symbolic? This latter one is definitely symbolic. 

Another one is the anti-Christ and the number 666. After some study, I realized that this symbol of the anti-Christ has been with us for a very long long time. The key is not the number itself, though it is, in the statement, it is the number of man. This passage has nothing to do with some individual who will be born to sit in the temple and decrease the earth. He won't really have horns and He won't breathe fire and brimstone. All this means is that the anti-Christ is man-made. The number 666 actually plays into that explanation quite nicely, but we hold to traditions that are simply false. We believe things that are given us that simply cannot be, like the modern Chrisian view of creation ex nihilo. It just isn't true, it doesn't matter how long and warm and fuzzy the tradition is, it's just not true.

We might take the gospel to the Jews, but I doubt it. They let is play in their yard, we have more symbology and historical connection with Israel than any other religion. We have a school there and a park and we are a temple building people, but we can't proselyte there. We have also been forbidden from doing work for Jews in our temples. The fact that the Jews will not have accepted Christ until they day He comes, is strong indication that we're not going to focus any effort on teaching the gospel to them.

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48 minutes ago, brotherofJared said:

From the institute manual: "the time of the Gentiles have continued from that time until now..." I don't see this as being the the gospel. In the second paragraph, there is this statement: "As President Smith indicated, the times that the major gospel effort would be with gentile nations continued with the Restoration." The preceding statement alluded to Paul and the other Apostles and the great missionary work. There is a gap there. It still belonged to the Gentiles, but it was not the gospel that was being taught nor was it the great missionary work that the apostles had commenced. The apostasy means there was no gospel of Jesus Christ. There was only a Bible and that's all they had.

When we see that the work continued with the Restoration, we have to consider what we mean by Gentiles. If we take the Jews interpretation of Gentile, it is everyone that is not a Jew. There is little or no effort to accept the possibility that this includes those who were carried into the north countries. If they came back and settled in Jerusalem now, they would not be accepted because they are Gentiles because they are NOT Jews, though they are Israelites. If we see it this way, the work that "continued with the Restoration" is being first brought to Gentiles, even though they are Israelites. 1 Nephi 15:18 reflects this idea, at least to me it does when it says: "Wherefore, our father hath not spoken of our seed alone, but also of all the house of Israel, pointing to the covenant which should be fulfilled in the latter days; which covenant the Lord made with our father Abraham, saying: In thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed." This latter clause speaks directly to the 10 Lost or Scattered tribes who, through that scattering infused the blood of Abraham and therefore the promise which was given to Abraham, or that the Gentiles are the scattered tribes, those who hear the word and accept it, which is also part of this revelation.

Then their are 4 signs which indicate that the time of the Gentiles are fulfilled...

1. Jews gathered to Jerusalem - check
2. Social turmoil - check
3. Gentiles reject the gospel - check (having been separated from the wheat)
4. Jerusalem no longer trodden down - check 

What's left is returning the scattered natural branches will be grafted in again. The natural branches are the ten tribes and which includes the Lamanites. The Jews, though the manual says they are part, in that the gospel will be taken, were never scattered, but have always been a people. It is apparent from the rest of the Scriptures, that Christ Himself will appear to them and reveal exactly who He is/was, that these are not included in the grafting and that they are not part of the "major efforts of gospel teaching". Literally, they will be last. Poetically, the Savior brought the gospel to them first, in person. And the first shall be last. The Savior will bring the gospel to them last, in person.

When I read this, it appeared that you were trying to say that one automatically flows into the other, as though the times of the Gentiles will be fulfilled when the gospel goes back to the Jews. The manual doesn't state that. It can't go to them until the very last part, but the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

This is not correct and we may shift our missionary gaze to the Jews (it's already on the lost tribes), but they will not accept it. The Gentiles have rejected it. The Gentiles, as I have described it here, are the field, in which both the tares and the wheat have been allowed to grow together. Missionary work is the effort to gather the wheat from among the tares. While they grew together, they were not discernable, one from another. As the field matures, we will be able to discern, or I should say, those who are wheat will be able to discern. This process is the harvest, the weekly promised baptism that didn't happen. But that doesn't mean that there aren't any wheat in amongst those tares.

I apologize to those who are offended when I disagree with our interpretation of scripture and events that we sometimes see in lesson manuals and come over the pulpit. I can't help it. I sometimes feel that we are staring right at the solution to a problem but resist accepting because it's "just not the way we do things around here". If it's wrong, it's wrong. When it comes to the end times, most of us don't have a clue what happens first and what happens second, or in this case, last. Why, then, does it make a difference if someone comes along and says, that piece of the puzzle doesn't go there? Does anyone here know any better? No. Not even the apostles know for sure. God said so Himself.

There is one thing I have concluded when it comes to the mysteries of God... when it happens, most people just think it was ordinary. It is explainable. It is natural. Only after looking back do we realize what has transpired. Obviously, not everything is going to happen that way. Some things are just going to stand out like a sore thumb, but for the most part, it all fits. No one knew that Christ appeared to Joseph Smith. The earth didn't stop spinning, the Sun was not turned back in the sky. The day started like any other and it ended like any other and that's the way most of these signs will be. For example. There will not literally be blood on the moon. The Sun will not literally darken and the stars will not literally throw themselves down. I, at one time, thought that this meant that the moon was going to crash into the earth, but even this would not describe the event as it is given to us. Sure, the Sun would be darkened, men's hearts would fail them and the stars would be cast down, but the moon would not turn to blood. It might get a little blood on it, but even if it smashed all 5 or 6 billion peoples on the earth, it would not turn to blood.

When I read these and ponder them, I consider the language, the context, the person telling it, the time it was told and how it could possibly manifest itself. Is it literal or symbolic? This latter one is definitely symbolic. 

Another one is the anti-Christ and the number 666. After some study, I realized that this symbol of the anti-Christ has been with us for a very long long time. The key is not the number itself, though it is, in the statement, it is the number of man. This passage has nothing to do with some individual who will be born to sit in the temple and decrease the earth. He won't really have horns and He won't breathe fire and brimstone. All this means is that the anti-Christ is man-made. The number 666 actually plays into that explanation quite nicely, but we hold to traditions that are simply false. We believe things that are given us that simply cannot be, like the modern Chrisian view of creation ex nihilo. It just isn't true, it doesn't matter how long and warm and fuzzy the tradition is, it's just not true.

We might take the gospel to the Jews, but I doubt it. They let is play in their yard, we have more symbology and historical connection with Israel than any other religion. We have a school there and a park and we are a temple building people, but we can't proselyte there. We have also been forbidden from doing work for Jews in our temples. The fact that the Jews will not have accepted Christ until they day He comes, is strong indication that we're not going to focus any effort on teaching the gospel to them.

Interesting stuff.

Of an interesting note on the number there...if I recall, 777 is considered the perfect number in Jewish tradition.  The other number, is almost perfect, but is just short, and hence the opposite of perfection, or the opposite of goodness.  Hence, why it is that number and what it stands for.  It literally is the number of evil if one looks at Judiac tradition. (if my memory serves right, which seems to be failing at times as I get older).

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On 6/26/2017 at 8:09 AM, Fether said:

My question is, with these overhauls in missionary work to raise the faith and preparation of missionaries

What makes you think these "overhauls" were to raise faith? None of the three did anything to prepare missionaries. Preach my gospel is next to impossible to use (that's my opinion - Same thing with the change in Priesthood manuals, I'm assuming it's going to be or is the same with the young men/young women Sunday School lesson manuals). Lowering the age to be eligible for a mission doesn't do anything for preparation and raising the bar didn't do anything to prepare missionaries (directly). I suppose we have to have an increase in faith because the foundation we use to stand on is now being shaken..?

 

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