12 yr old testimony drama


NeuroTypical
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10 minutes ago, brotherofJared said:

Of course the parents, especially the mother, used their daughters actions to promote an agenda. But couldn't the daughter be genuinely and naively interested in what she thinks is a noble cause? I'm fully willing to believe she is. The parents encouragement leading to the catastrophe is absolutely on the parents. They knew, they led her to believe that her parents would be there to support her, so; to her, they will appear to be the heros and not the villains. Maybe sometime later in life she will realize that her parents let her out on a limb that they knew would be severed and she would fall. Unfortunately, she will probably so embroiled in bad decisions based in this experience that it will be too late. I believe that these can be healed, but only by the Savior's touch.

I pretty much agree with everything here.  Except we don't really know about the dad's role. 

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41 minutes ago, miav said:

I agree the child acted on her own, but I think her parents encouraged her. They also have more knowledge than Savannah and knew the likely outcome, they failed to protect their daughter

Protection is life and limb in my opinion. I've seen far too many parents take the idea of protection too far and block their children from the social skills they will eventually need when their parents are no longer there. Of course, this is an individual call. I get the impression here that protection in your post means prevent as it would in protecting life and limb. 

In this case, I'd use the word prepared, then, being informed, at least informed of the parents fears, the child could then make a decision. Parents are not always right, but they have a responsibility to teach their children as best they can.

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37 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

Correct.   You said:  "I suspect that the daughter was following her own agenda"

There was an obvious agenda, and as any of us can see, it included the following elements:

- hidden cameras
- video editing
- promotion of the final product to dozens of news agencies all over the world
- inviting a bunch of professional critics, including the guy who sneaks into the temple and secretly records our ceremonies for youtube publication

Maybe you didn't understand that all that stuff got arranged and planned beforehand?   Well, it obviously did.  Otherwise, you'd ask us to believe that it was just random chance that a bunch of church critics, including the guy who sneaks into the temple with a hidden camera, just happened to all visit some random ward one day, where they had absolutely no idea a mom would be video taping her daughter's misguided coming out efforts.

The daughter may have very well wanted to give this speech to a captive audience.  But her mom and nefarious ill-meaning friends took that want and manipulated it to their own nefarious ill-meaning ends.  

Or, the daughter did.  Someone did it, boJ.  I don't think it was the daughter. 

Fine. I didn't say nor did I suggest that that agenda was her, the child's agenda.

Let's just keep the comments to what I said and we'll be alright.

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I am not sure how I feel about the whole thing. The Bishop (or whomever talked to the girl) looked annoyed.

People say that censuring her was the right thing to do because her speech had nothing to do with a testimony.

However, let's admit it. Testimony meetings come straight from the twilight zone, no kidding.The following are just some things I heard during testimony meetings in all my years as a member of the Church:

1. A member saying that missionaries offered him money to have sex with him.

2. A 10 minute testimony about why we should avoid shopping at Walmart.

3. The evils of sugar.

4. If you talk bad about Trump, then you are talking bad about the Lord's anointed.

 

Edited by Suzie
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31 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

@brotherofJared,

Who is it in your life that is gay?

No one. There are gays in my life as there are in nearly everyone's. I suppose u think I am carrying a torch for someone. I am not.

I get into these arguments with gays who don't like my position there. I support the churches position. I feel for the child. I don't like her parents so much, but I do wonder about the husband. Obviously, the mother has lesbian issues and is.probably a self-denying lesbian. That makes me wonder how the husband fits into the equation.

Now his is a hypothetical assumption on my part and I know I can't say anything about other people's orientation unless they say something that erases the doubt ( believe me, I'm the most naive person when it comes to same sx attraction. It has to be spelled out with a flashing neon sign for me to get it).

But, I'd like to explore the possibility that the husband is trapped in such a relationship because it is possible, just as it is for a wife to be trapped in a similar but opposite relationship.

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42 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

The girl hadn't been to church is like a year, and mom is very against dad "indoctrinating" the children.  The ned of her speech (that was cut off) also was pretty much a pronouncement of her leaving.  

None of these were in the report that I read. Of course CNN is going to be politically correct in their presentation. 

I hope u don't mind that I'm just not going to accept your rendition  without verification. It would drastically change my view if it was a fact that she hadn't been attending church for a year. That would change everything. If we are relying on church records for that information, I'm afraid that I'd be no more inclined to believe it than I am now.

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3 hours ago, brotherofJared said:

Obviously, the mother has lesbian issues and is.probably a self-denying lesbian. That makes me wonder how the husband fits into the equation.
 

How did you reach the conclusion/assumption that the mother has lesbian issues and is probably a self-denying lesbian?

 

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18 minutes ago, Suzie said:

The Bishop (or whomever talked to the girl) looked annoyed.

I feel the Bishop (or whoever it was) probably already knew the families position on this topic, and maybe he was concerned with were it was headed. He didn't know how long her testimony would be or what else was going to be said. If the parents are willing to put their child out like that, I can almost guarantee they are very outspoken about their beliefs and disappointment in the church.

I have nothing wrong with those who are gay. They are brothers and sisters.  I do however disagree with anyone who turn Sacrament meeting into their own personal agenda. Which includes the examples you gave above. (Especially the Trump comment, I believe they too should have asked to sit down.)

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37 minutes ago, Suzie said:

I am not sure how I feel about the whole thing. The Bishop (or whomever talked to the girl) looked annoyed.

People say that censuring her was the right thing to do because her speech had nothing to do with a testimony.

However, let's admit it. Testimony meetings come straight from the twilight zone, no kidding.The following are just some things I heard during testimony meetings in all my years as a member of the Church:

1. A member saying that missionaries offered him money to have sex with him.

2. A 10 minute testimony about why we should avoid shopping at Walmart.

3. The evils of sugar.

4. If you talk bad about Trump, then you are talking bad about the Lord's anointed.

 

And, who can forget Collins' testimony from Pride and Prejudice? ;)

Then again--I would very much expect someone to be shut down if they were announcing their intent to consummate an adulterous relationship, or to enter into polygamy, or to one day celebrate the joys of a sexual relationship with a pubescent child.

Savannah may have been a vulnerable child; but let us be clear--she was also shilling for a life choice that is frankly satanic; and she was doing it on holy ground.  Or, to put things in more current parlance--she violated our safe space.  

I don't know what I would have done in the presiding authority's position; but I'm glad it wasn't me, and I don't fault him for his choice.

Edited by Just_A_Guy
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16 minutes ago, Suzie said:

Yes, I read it was hypothetical but I still don't understand how you came up with such assumption. I just don't see it, I'm seriously asking.

 

I probably will regret offering that hypothesis, but I wanted to know what the husband/father is doing in it IF that is the situation. There doesn't need to be any more reason than that.

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3 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

And, who can forget Collins' testimony from Pride and Prejudice? ;)

Then again--I would very much expect someone to be shut down if they were announcing their intent to consummate an adulterous relationship, or to enter into polygamy, or to one day celebrate the joys of a sexual relationship with a pubescent child.

Savannah may have been a vulnerable child; but let us be clear--she was also shilling for a life choice that is frankly satanic; and she was doing it on holy ground.

Or, to put things in more current parlance--she violated our safe space.

I wasn't concerned at the members hearing this (just turn on the TV) but more concerned at the fact that she is only 12 and she is vulnerable (no matter what she says or does). She is just a child. You know how liberal I am in my thinking... and to be honest....if I was her mother, I would have discourage her from doing it. Not because I think being gay is "wrong" or because the Church is the wrong forum for such speech but because you don't have to be Stephen Hawking to know the kind of reaction it would generate if she does that. And who wants to see their own kid getting hurt?

Do you wanna shake-up the status quo? Sure, no issue with me at all... but don't do that to your own kid....

 

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26 minutes ago, brotherofJared said:

None of these were in the report that I read. Of course CNN is going to be politically correct in their presentation. 

I hope u don't mind that I'm just not going to accept your rendition  without verification. It would drastically change my view if it was a fact that she hadn't been attending church for a year. That would change everything. If we are relying on church records for that information, I'm afraid that I'd be no more inclined to believe it than I am now.

Just a reminder of the link I provided at the start of this thread.  Here it is again. 

https://www.fairmormon.org/blog/2017/06/18/testimonies-twelve-year-olds

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31 minutes ago, Suzie said:

I wasn't concerned at the members hearing this (just turn on the TV) but more concerned at the fact that she is only 12 and she is vulnerable (no matter what she says or does). She is just a child. You know how liberal I am in my thinking... and to be honest....if I was her mother, I would have discourage her from doing it. Not because I think being gay is "wrong" or because the Church is the wrong forum for such speech but because you don't have to be Stephen Hawking to know the kind of reaction it would generate if she does that. And who wants to see their own kid getting hurt?

Do you wanna shake-up the status quo? Sure, no issue with me at all... but don't do that to your own kid....

Hear, hear.  Her local LDS community will hopefully try to be Christlike--but even if you can get past the gay thing, she's still that kid.  Whatever road she might possibly take, just got exponentially harder and more lonely.

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2 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

Just a reminder of the link I provided at the start of this thread.  Here it is again. 

https://www.fairmormon.org/blog/2017/06/18/testimonies-twelve-year-olds

To date, I have refused to watch it. I prefer to read. I feel it would be too disturbing. I discovered this article because I have a google search running to send me new subject material as it appears on the internet.

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2 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

Just a reminder of the link I provided at the start of this thread.  Here it is again. 

https://www.fairmormon.org/blog/2017/06/18/testimonies-twelve-year-olds

Ok. I read the article. If this is the article that is being referenced by some posts here, then some of them are misleading. There is no information there that would indicate that Savanah has been out of church for a year and we have no information on what the rest of her talk said (from this article). The author was making an observation based on a "pattern". Dad and 4 siblings were in regular attendance. This article doesn't say anything about the mother's membership, CNN said she requested that the church drop her membership.

That being said, I'm back to believing that the girl, Savanah, engineered this talk herself. She won't be the first person that wrote their testimony down. There is a lot from the article on fairmormon that I would question. The author switches from facts, to suppositions, to beliefs and opinions (and from my observations of LDS fast and testimony meetings, very few actually adhere to the purpose of a testimony).

From my point of view, regardless of how this testimony came about (coercion, planned, noble cause or whatever), it is now a media event.

I find it interesting that the person addressing the congregation was a stake representative and not the Bishop. I wonder if we'll ever get the full and actual story.

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1 hour ago, brotherofJared said:

Ok. I read the article. If this is the article that is being referenced by some posts here, then some of them are misleading. There is no information there that would indicate that Savanah has been out of church for a year and we have no information on what the rest of her talk said (from this article). The author was making an observation based on a "pattern". Dad and 4 siblings were in regular attendance. This article doesn't say anything about the mother's membership, CNN said she requested that the church drop her membership.

That being said, I'm back to believing that the girl, Savanah, engineered this talk herself. She won't be the first person that wrote their testimony down. There is a lot from the article on fairmormon that I would question. The author switches from facts, to suppositions, to beliefs and opinions (and from my observations of LDS fast and testimony meetings, very few actually adhere to the purpose of a testimony).

From my point of view, regardless of how this testimony came about (coercion, planned, noble cause or whatever), it is now a media event.

I find it interesting that the person addressing the congregation was a stake representative and not the Bishop. I wonder if we'll ever get the full and actual story.

I didn't get my information from that article or other articles that have been posted on these forums.

Edited by JohnsonJones
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11 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

Hear, hear.  Her local LDS community will hopefully try to be Christlike--but even if you can get past the gay thing, she's still that kid.  Whatever road she might possibly take, just got exponentially harder and more lonely.

Well, in the video a Church leader after she was told to sit down, got up and mentioned that we are all children of God, etc which is fine but the damage was already done.

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13 hours ago, Suzie said:

I wasn't concerned at the members hearing this (just turn on the TV) but more concerned at the fact that she is only 12 and she is vulnerable (no matter what she says or does). She is just a child. You know how liberal I am in my thinking... and to be honest....if I was her mother, I would have discourage her from doing it. Not because I think being gay is "wrong" or because the Church is the wrong forum for such speech but because you don't have to be Stephen Hawking to know the kind of reaction it would generate if she does that. And who wants to see their own kid getting hurt?

Do you wanna shake-up the status quo? Sure, no issue with me at all... but don't do that to your own kid....

I'm reminded of the tactics used in Vietnam.  They would strap bombs to children and send them running towards the American encampments.  Either they succeed in getting the bomb in or the Americans get labeled "Baby-killers".  Either way, they win. 

Our example here is that the bomb already went off and we still got labeled baby-killers.

Edited by Guest
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On 6/22/2017 at 6:00 PM, MrShorty said:

Are we so afraid of the gay agenda, that we have to shut down children who might be less acquainted with the theology that makes homosexuality so egregious?

 

On 6/22/2017 at 8:07 PM, The Folk Prophet said:

Short answer. Yes.

 

1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

I'm reminded of the tactics used in Vietnam.  They would strap bombs to children and send them running towards the American encampments.  Either they succeed in getting the bomb in or the Americans get labeled "Baby-killers".  Either way, they win. 

Our example here is that the bomb already went off and we still got labeled baby-killers.

Context.

Edited by The Folk Prophet
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1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

I'm reminded of the tactics used in Vietnam.  They would strap bombs to children and send them running towards the American encampments.  Either they succeed in getting the bomb in or the Americans get labeled "Baby-killers".  Either way, they win. 

Our example here is that the bomb already went off and we still got labeled baby-killers.

I always felt bad for Catholics/Conservative Protestants/Mormons for being labeled as "hate filled" and "homophobic" just because they are against gay marriage. It's an grossly unfair label.

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