Attitudes and behaviours of the lds

[Fether]

4 hours ago, anatess2 said:

So, ask the question - is his presence bringing both of you closer or farther from Christ?  If the answer is closer to Christ, then he stays.  If the answer is farther from Christ then he goes.  It's really as simple as that.  Because - what does it matter if he gossips if such gossiping doesn't bring you farther from Christ but his presence in your house brings HIM closer to Christ?  Today he gossips, tomorrow he realizes it's a bad thing because of your influence, so he stops.  Win for Christ.

Depends.  Permitting somebody who is very far from perfection into my home that he may hear and be influenced by the gospel is completely different from permitting somebody who is far from perfection into my home so he can drive us farther from perfection too.

Like I said, I don't claim that my house is the perfect repose for the Spirit.  Rather, my house is more like a hospital.  With people working together to fight diseases.  If my home could compare with the temple in sacredness, I wouldn't be allowed to live in it.

Well maybe you should strive to be worthy to live in a home that compares to the temple.

And as far as who to invite, those home owners and dwellers can make educated assessments. My brother had a friend who swore a ton, was rude, and stole his money. He got kicked out. 

I have a friend that swore (though tried not to in my home) was polite, and gay. He could stay.

[Vort]

Apropos of nothing, here are my experiences on a completely unrelated topic.

 

[Sunday21]

2 hours ago, LiterateParakeet said:

LOL, I'll own that.  Seattle does tend to be more Liberal, and that is one of the reasons I love it!  

In my Intro to Social Work class this semester the text talked a lot (every chapter) about the different views Liberals, Conservatives and Radicals have towards issues we face and what to do about them.  I learned that I am hard-core Liberal.  But I hasten to add, I'm not Democrat.  I'm Independent (which means I don't agree with everything on the Democrat platform, and certainly not Republican either. )  

I knew you were Canadian deep down!

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

8 minutes ago, Sunday21 said:

I knew you were Canadian deep down!

What a lovely compliment!

[Sunday21]

7 minutes ago, LiterateParakeet said:

What a lovely compliment!

Canada ??!

[Guest MormonGator]

58 minutes ago, Fether said:

 

I have a friend that swore (though tried not to in my home) was polite, and gay. He could stay.

I think people skills will always help you in life. Being polite, friendly, and generally not an argumentative, unpleasant jerk will get you far. Sure, you can be surly and unpleasant and still be successful, but it'll be a lot harder. 

[priesthoodpower]

8 hours ago, Vort said:

A couple of clarifications:

1. There was never a Church policy forbidding or even formally discouraging interracial marriage. Before 1978, there was an understandable prejudice against a non-black Latter-day Saint marrying a person of sub-Saharan African descent, since that meant that Priesthood and temple blessings would be denied to their progeny; but even that was due to Priesthood and temple issues, and not race per se.
2. While there was never a formal policy discouraging interracial marriage, the counsel to be very careful about marrying across racial lines was -- and is still -- provided. Such counsel, to marry someone from a sufficiently similar social background to yourself so that you avoid all sorts of impediments in your marriage, is common sense wisdom. Marrying across racial lines can raise all sorts of this type of cultural problem. I think it was wise counsel, and still is. I would provide the same counsel to my children if they were considering such an intercultural marriage. I would not explicitly discourage it, but I would encourage them to think long and hard before making such a covenant. Marriage is much too important to enter into lightly or to try to prove how unprejudiced you are.

Playing devils advocate here -

There is only one race, human race. Love and unity cannot be taught it needs to be experienced. The more inter-culture, inter-religion, inter-everything happens the closer this world becomes to being what the Lord wants it to be.

 

[Vort]

1 minute ago, priesthoodpower said:

Playing devils advocate here -

There is only one race, human race. Love and unity cannot be taught it needs to be experienced. The more inter-culture, inter-religion, inter-everything happens the closer this world becomes to being what the Lord wants it to be.

I would say that, in general, this is not true. There are any number of cultures that contain elements in direct violation of the Lord's desires. Focusing in on any one such culture does not bring us closer to God. In fact, the multiplicities of cultures may well be God's way of giving us various elements of his cultural desires, spread out among different peoples.

If we could unite on the One True Culture, then yes, that would indeed be lovely. But then, this is what humanity has tried to do countless times in the past. How many kings decided that, since sin was against God's purposes, they would outlaw sin? How many despots solidified their power by appealing to the desirability of unity -- even if that unity consisted of slaughtering a people to extinction? Today's stifling Political Correctness is but the latest American attempt to unite everyone under the Goodthink we crave.

No, I'm definitely not sold on the idea. Though you did say Devil's advocate...

[Fether]

9 minutes ago, priesthoodpower said:

Playing devils advocate here -

There is only one race, human race. Love and unity cannot be taught it needs to be experienced. The more inter-culture, inter-religion, inter-everything happens the closer this world becomes to being what the Lord wants it to be.

 

Either angels asvicate, or devil's devil advocate... however you want.

There is no such thing as "I don't see color"... nor is there "I don't see culture". I work at a hotel and many guests get severely offended when the female front desk workers ask to help with bags. Here in the US, females get offended when people get offended at females doing anything.

Like Vort, I don't discourage it... but you can't ignore the cultural conflicts. And I don't think a "one culture" world would really be all that great... I love the different cultures and when Zion is fully established and the milenium brought about, I imagine we will need all those cultures (as long as they conform to the standards of the gospel).

Edited July 19, 2017 by Fether

[Guest]

29 minutes ago, priesthoodpower said:

Playing devils advocate here -

There is only one race, human race. Love and unity cannot be taught it needs to be experienced. The more inter-culture, inter-religion, inter-everything happens the closer this world becomes to being what the Lord wants it to be.

 

I would also disagree.

I mean, can any good really come out of inter-religious and inter-cultural exchanges with,  for example, FLDS?  The Nazis?  The North Korean government?  

We should try for understanding with various worthy groups.  That said, we need to watch who our friends are.  

 

Edited July 19, 2017 by DoctorLemon

[Bad Karma]

Would you allow your unmarried adult child to share a room in your house with their unmarried partner?

Would you allow an adult child to consume alcohol in your home?

To smoke?

To watch an r-rated movie?

To watch a horror movie?

To make fun of your religion?

To use the Lord's name in vain?

 

Nope

Nope

Nope

Indifferent

Indifferent

Nope (Get out)

Nope (Where's my bar of soap?)

Just because I'm former career military and "cool", I am not THAT cool. 

 

[Guest]

3 hours ago, MormonGator said:

I had to block you due to your constant swearing and drama. Sorry dude. 

I"m a dramatic tradgelian.

[priesthoodpower]

3 hours ago, Vort said:

I would say that, in general, this is not true. There are any number of cultures that contain elements in direct violation of the Lord's desires. Focusing in on any one such culture does not bring us closer to God. In fact, the multiplicities of cultures may well be God's way of giving us various elements of his cultural desires, spread out among different peoples.

We send missionaries out to penetrate these cultures and convert them to the Gospel of Jesus Christ. You mentioned that you would discourage your child to marry interracially, but what If you had a son that served in Brazil and then wanted to marry a Brazilian LDS girl? There are thousands of missionaries that have served in foreign countries and ended up marrying men/women of those countries, these familys are planting the seeds for further growth of the Gospel in these foreign cultures/countries. In the Gospel of Jesus Christ there is only one race, the human race.

3 hours ago, Vort said:

If we could unite on the One True Culture, then yes, that would indeed be lovely. But then, this is what humanity has tried to do countless times in the past. How many kings decided that, since sin was against God's purposes, they would outlaw sin? How many despots solidified their power by appealing to the desirability of unity -- even if that unity consisted of slaughtering a people to extinction? Today's stifling Political Correctness is but the latest American attempt to unite everyone under the Goodthink we crave.

No, I'm definitely not sold on the idea. Though you did say Devil's advocate...

That ONE TRUE culture is the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Im sure everyone here will agree with me that you can walk into any LDS chapel in this world and feel right at home.

I guess I come from a very diverse little LDS community because when I was growing up- the word in the streets (among LDS) was not about "becareful what race you marry", but rather "becareful what religion you marry".

[Sunday21]

1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

I"m a dramatic tradgelian.

A what? How do you define this? Like tragedy? So someone who likes tragedy? So soap operas?

Edited July 19, 2017 by Sunday21

[Guest]

26 minutes ago, Sunday21 said:

A what? How do you define this? Like tragedy? So someone who likes tragedy? So soap operas?

See Rosencrantz and Guildenstern Are Dead.

[The Folk Prophet]

8 hours ago, priesthoodpower said:

We send missionaries out to penetrate these cultures and convert them to the Gospel of Jesus Christ. You mentioned that you would discourage your child to marry interracially, but what If you had a son that served in Brazil and then wanted to marry a Brazilian LDS girl? There are thousands of missionaries that have served in foreign countries and ended up marrying men/women of those countries, these familys are planting the seeds for further growth of the Gospel in these foreign cultures/countries. In the Gospel of Jesus Christ there is only one race, the human race.

That ONE TRUE culture is the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Im sure everyone here will agree with me that you can walk into any LDS chapel in this world and feel right at home.

I guess I come from a very diverse little LDS community because when I was growing up- the word in the streets (among LDS) was not about "becareful what race you marry", but rather "becareful what religion you marry".

All I know is that in my extended family, every single one of those who married "Brazillian" or other Latino "cultures" (race is irrelevant. It's culture we're talking here) are now happily (sarcasm) divorced. That's not an indictment of Latinos. From their perspective they could easily say, every one of their marriages to white Americans ended up in divorce.

Yes, I know that my limited experience with the world doesn't define reality. But I do think that what I've seen is exactly what @Vort is talking about. Marriage is hard, and any complications thrown into it make it harder. Cultural barriers are HUGE complications. Huge unnecessary complications. Yes, sometimes it works and sometimes it works really well. But its potentially fuel to a fire as likely as not to cause it to burn out of control.

I see two logical fallacies with your ideas: 1. Marriage into these cultures is required or even beneficial in bringing them into the gospel of Christ. As you said, any LDS chapel in the world you feel right at home in, even those with no inter-cultural marriages. 2. No success (no...not even bringing the gospel to others) can compensate for failure in the home.

The suggestion Vort is making is simply the same common sense as being careful to not marry a Democrat if your a Republican, being careful to not marry a sports fan if you hate sports, being careful to not marry someone who wants to decorate their house in pink if you can't stand pink, or being careful to not marry someone who eats rice every meal when you don't like rice. None of these are unquestionable deal-breakers in and of themselves, including culture ("race"). It is simply a factor that should be very carefully and prayerfully considered because the likelihood of cultural differences causing some level of complication beyond where a married couple has the same cultural traditions, thoughts, views, etc., is very high.

[Guest MormonGator]

12 hours ago, priesthoodpower said:

We send missionaries out to penetrate these cultures and convert them to the Gospel of Jesus Christ. You mentioned that you would discourage your child to marry interracially, but what If you had a son that served in Brazil and then wanted to marry a Brazilian LDS girl? There are thousands of missionaries that have served in foreign countries and ended up marrying men/women of those countries, these familys are planting the seeds for further growth of the Gospel in these foreign cultures/countries. In the Gospel of Jesus Christ there is only one race, the human race.

That ONE TRUE culture is the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Im sure everyone here will agree with me that you can walk into any LDS chapel in this world and feel right at home.

I guess I come from a very diverse little LDS community because when I was growing up- the word in the streets (among LDS) was not about "becareful what race you marry", but rather "becareful what religion you marry".

In fairness to @Vort, I think he's saying "be aware of differences that might cause issues" rather than issuing a racist, blanket statement like  "don't marry someone who isn't of the same race.".

As someone who has dated hispanic and African-American women before, I  can tell you that in 2017, it's really no big deal and no one under 30 cares or will notice the race thing. It's just not a big deal unless you come from a very small and insular background.

Edited July 19, 2017 by MormonGator

[anatess2]

18 hours ago, Jojo Bags said:

Christ loves the sinner, not the sin.  At the same time He cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance.  His actions of dining with the publicans did not negate this, but showed His unconditional love. This is very black and white.

Right.  So, how do you reconcile black and white with unconditional love in your own life?  Say, when you see a person doing something - do you see him as black and white?  Sinner - avoid.  Not sinner - invite.  That's how you do it?  If not, then where do you draw the line... he swears - don't invite, he cheated on his taxes - invite... that's how do you do it?

I told you how I do it - Does it bring me and others closer/farther from Christ?  That's my line.  It's not black and white.  As in - he swears but his being in my home is bringing him closer to Christ while not bringing us farther from Christ - invite.  Or - he swears and his being in my home is not bringing him closer to Christ while also bringing us farther from Christ - don't invite.  See?

Edited July 19, 2017 by anatess2

[anatess2]

17 hours ago, Fether said:

Well maybe you should strive to be worthy to live in a home that compares to the temple.

Are you saying that I don't?  That's quite insulting isn't it?

 

17 hours ago, Fether said:

And as far as who to invite, those home owners and dwellers can make educated assessments. My brother had a friend who swore a ton, was rude, and stole his money. He got kicked out. 

I have a friend that swore (though tried not to in my home) was polite, and gay. He could stay.

But your gay friend - if he was homosexually active - wouldn't be able to enter the temple.  So you're saying your house does not compare to the temple either?

Now, of course, my simple answer to who to invite, as I've stated in my very first post on this thread, is to ask the question - "Does it bring me and others closer/farther from Christ?"  Now, how does that conflict with what you're saying?

Edited July 19, 2017 by anatess2

[Jane_Doe]

On a slightly different note--  Address the adult child and unmarried partner sharing a room question:

I think this is something you should really respect your host's preference in.  And not just LDS host.  For example, my Baptist grandmother isn't ok with that, because unmarried sex is against her morals.  Now the grandchildren have taken to the trends of the world, so unmarried partners do live together in sin.  But when you stay at Grandma's house, you stay in different rooms-- that's simply out of respect and love for Grandma (which includes Grandma's morals).  Grandma's never pushed the issue or ordered anyone to do so, it's just been a thing the grandkids have traditionally done out of love and because we know where she stands.  Sadly though... lately one of the grandkids has disregarded that respect and I see how it really makes Grandma sad.   

[anatess2]

4 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

The suggestion Vort is making is simply the same common sense as being careful to not marry a Democrat if your a Republican, being careful to not marry a sports fan if you hate sports, being careful to not marry someone who wants to decorate their house in pink if you can't stand pink, or being careful to not marry someone who eats rice every meal when you don't like rice. None of these are unquestionable deal-breakers in and of themselves, including culture ("race"). It is simply a factor that should be very carefully and prayerfully considered because the likelihood of cultural differences causing some level of complication beyond where a married couple has the same cultural traditions, thoughts, views, etc., is very high.

And don't marry a Filipino if you can't stand having his/her parents and other relatives stay at your house.  My husband is very tolerant of my family staying at my house - just this month, my brother's familiy of 5 plus my mother stayed with me for 3 weeks.  With more people comfortable speaking in Bisaya than English, English was rarely spoken in my home for 3 weeks.  My husband doesn't understand Bisaya... he finally sat me down and said, "if you're going to have my name spoken in a sentence, at least say it in English so I know why you said my name.".

I can't think of anyone in my circle of American friends who will tolerate 3 weeks of that kind of chaos other than my husband - who has no problem with even 6 months of it (longest my family has stayed with me).  I'm not even sure if they will tolerate 3 days of it.  I can just imagine the constant push and pull of the Filipino begging to have her family stay and the non-Filipino tired of having to say No so many times.

Interestingly - my husband's family has never asked to stay at our house.  They stay at a hotel.  If they ask, I am very sure my husband would tell them to get a hotel - and even offer to pay for it.  I find this weird.

Edited July 19, 2017 by anatess2

[Mike]

When people talk about marrying a Brazilian girl it always gets my attention to see what they say next. (And just in case the are interested in a case study).

 

Edited July 19, 2017 by Mike

[Vort]

14 hours ago, priesthoodpower said:

We send missionaries out to penetrate these cultures and convert them to the Gospel of Jesus Christ. You mentioned that you would discourage your child to marry interracially, but what If you had a son that served in Brazil and then wanted to marry a Brazilian LDS girl?

Funny you should mention that, since Elder Vortling III is currently serving in Brazil São Paulo West...

If my precious boy fell in love with an LDS Brazilian girl (after his mission, natch) and decide to marry her, I would speak to him with fatherly love about the challenges of marriage and the added difficulties introduced by cultural barriers. I would encourage him to pursue the relationship with his eyes wide open, be ruthlessly introspective and honest, and understand what he was contemplating. I would tell him the same thing if he were marrying a Canadian, a girl from Harlem, or a Pittsburgher.

Also, I'm pretty sure that missionaries marrying girls from their mission area is not a Church-sponsored program, however common it might be. A missionary's mind should be on his work, not on the native girls. In my second-hand experience, such missionary-based couples have been somewhat less successful, statistically speaking, than the missionaries who come home and marry the girl next door (at BYU).

If you thought my post was about race, you misunderstood me.

[Mike]

4 hours ago, Vort said:

 ... In my second-hand experience, such missionary-based couples have been somewhat less successful, statistically speaking, than the missionaries who come home and marry the girl next door (at BYU).

In *my* second-hand experience, missionary-based couples have been less successful when the missionary was female and the husband was from the proselytizing area. But I'm prone to suspect that neither of us have a sufficiently large sampling in order to formulate a statistically valid hypothesis. Now my *first-hand* experience is 180 degrees toward the successful side.

In any event I'm with you on the "I would encourage ... to pursue the relationship with ... eyes wide open, be ruthlessly introspective and honest, and understand what ... was contemplating" part. Personally, I would tell anyone the same thing if if they were marrying the boy or girl next door, from BYU, or anywhere else. 

Edited July 19, 2017 by Mike

[Sunday21]

I remember someone saying that a woman can marry a man from a more liberal culture but not a man from a more conservative culture.