Assurances today's LDS church is the restored gospel

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Remember I'm on the same side here.  But there really is no such thing as "proof" by mortal means.  Remember truth is only obtained through the Spirit.

EXAMPLE:

When analyzing the most famous chiasmus in the BoM (Alma's story of his conversion) it seems almost irrefutable to me and you.  It is so long and formatted.  But you know what they point to?  

Instead of the common version we refer to which is perfectly parallel, they point to an alternate version that re-defines a couplet saying that this one line out of about 30 is out of order.  Therefore, that is proof it was not intended to be chiasmus or that it was imperfect chiasmus.  This, of course, proves that it is a false book.

** My give up **

No, the truth is that none of this matters unless you've already been opened up to the idea because you're received a witness of the Holy Ghost.  That's all.  There is no other proof of divine things other than the Holy Ghost.  One might try to prove the Bible to an atheist.  It just won't happen through mortal means.  The only way to convert is through the Holy Ghost.

There are even those who have been "convinced" by these mortal means.  But without the foundation of the Power of the Holy Ghost, they end up being the seeds that were choked out by weeds.  It simply isn't strong enough to keep one converted.

You're not on the same side as me!  

That's right, Carb . . . you don't have me fooled.  I know you are a spy for Mormonism Research Ministry!

I'm like a mix between James Bond, Sherlock Holmes, and Fabio.  No one fools me.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, DoctorLemon said:

You're not on the same side as me!  

That's right, Carb . . . you don't have me fooled.  I know you are a spy for Mormonism Research Ministry!

I'm like a mix between James Bond, Sherlock Holmes, and Fabio.  No one fools me.

You're going to throw that back in my face.  That was like so last week.  How long are you going to hold that over my head.  I repented. I swear!!!

...

...

eerrrmm... Fabio?

Edited July 20, 2017 by Guest

[zil]

3 minutes ago, DoctorLemon said:

I'm like a mix between James Bond, Sherlock Holmes, and Fabio.

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, zil said:

Yup, one of these things is not like the others...

[zil]

9 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Yup, one of these things is not like the others...

Further, if you're the Daniel Craig version of James Bond, you really have no need for anything Fabio might have (had).  (Not sure what the Fabio appeal was in the first place.)

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, zil said:

Further, if you're the Daniel Craig version of James Bond, you really have no need for anything Fabio might have (had).  (Not sure what the Fabio appeal was in the first place.)

Because his abs were such, you coulnd't believe they weren't "buttah"

Edited July 20, 2017 by Guest

[zil]

2 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Because his abs were such, you coulnd't believe they weren't "buttah"

Nope, sorry, not working for me.

[Jojo Bags]

On 2017-7-18 at 11:47 PM, SpiritDragon said:

What other evidence can you think of to support the position that the church has not fallen away?

My testimony.   I know it is as true today as it was at the time of Christ and when it was restored through Joseph Smith. 

[SpiritDragon]

Quote

the Standard of Truth has been erected; no unhallowed hand can stop the work from progressing; persecutions may rage, mobs may combine, armies may assemble, calumny may defame, but the truth of God will go forth boldly, nobly, and independent, till it has penetrated every continent, visited every clime, swept every country, and sounded in every ear; till the purposes of God shall be accomplished, and the Great Jehovah shall say the work is done.

While this quote taken from the Wentworth letter, often known simply as the standard of truth, certainly indicates that the church will fill the world and be unstoppable, it speaks of "the work" and "truth" being spread, but doesn't actually state that the church is the same as these. I think it certainly stands to reason that Joseph Smith is referring to the church. 

[SpiritDragon]

Are there not any scriptures or teachings  that say that in this last dispensation the church will not apostatize... at least something to that effect. That the priesthood will never be taken away again. I have been searching unsuccessfully for scriptures or quotes from Joseph Smith or his contemporaries this weekend - I've found support for the idea but no clear proclamation. I'll keep digging, but if anyone with better fortune searching things out could help I'd really appreciate it.

Thanks!

[Guest]

1 hour ago, SpiritDragon said:

Are there not any scriptures or teachings  that say that in this last dispensation the church will not apostatize... at least something to that effect. That the priesthood will never be taken away again.

What is the priesthood?

What is the Church?

[Guest]

On 7/20/2017 at 2:32 PM, zil said:

Nope, sorry, not working for me.

  I just re-read this and I wish I could give it another like.

[Just_A_Guy]

D&C 13?

Text search the D&C on the phrase "last time"?

I think some of this came up in a Greg Smith's two-part article against Denver Snuffer that ran in the Mormon Interpreter a couple years ago; but I don't have time to hunt up the link at the moment.

Edited August 7, 2017 by Just_A_Guy

[Sunday21]

@SpiritDragon

Is this what you are looking for?

The Lord Will Never Permit the Living Prophet to Lead the Church Astray

• President Wilford Woodruff declared that we can have full confidence in the direction the prophet is leading the Church: “The Lord will never permit me or any other man who stands as President of this Church to lead you astray. It is not in the programme. It is not in the mind of God. If I were to attempt that, the Lord would remove me out of my place, and so He will any other man who attempts to lead the children of men astray from the oracles of God and from their duty” (Official Declaration 1, “Excerpts from Three Addresses by President Wilford Woodruff Regarding the Manifesto”; emphasis added).

• President Harold B. Lee taught this same principle: “You keep your eye upon him whom the Lord called, and I say to you now, knowing that I stand in this position, you don’t need to worry about the President of the Church ever leading people astray, because the Lord would remove him out of his place before He would ever allow that to happen” (The Teachings of Harold B. Lee, ed. Clyde J. Williams [1996], 533).

• I suppose that one could fast & pray about these statements?

Edited August 7, 2017 by Sunday21

[Anddenex]

When I think about this for a moment, my mind first thinks:

1) What are prophecies in the Book of Mormon (and scriptures) that are being fulfilled? This would give evidence toward the work. One for sure is that we are small in comparison to the great and spacious building, and yet we are truly filling the whole earth. Even more so, we will be referred to as a global church.

2) Scriptures highlight the people of God being temple builders and worshipers. God commanded, at least since Moses (that we are aware of), to build temples. Temple work is active. Temples are being built.

3) Scriptures highlight the calling of apostles and prophets (the New Testament specifies the importance of such). We have prophets and apostles.

4) Prophets and apostles have been ridiculed continuously by the spacious building, the mother of abominations, and the mother of harlots (the finger of scorn). This remains the same today.

5) Missionary work

6) The Holy Ghost is evidently inspiring local leaders and those located in Salt Lake City

7) Temple built in East Germany. The Church leadership enticed its people to obey. If I am remembering stories correctly, members were able to leave East Germany to go to the temple because the government trusted the Church leadership when they said if our people leave they will come back, and since the Church had done nothing to show otherwise they allowed members to leave. This is evidence to me that God is in control, and that he is guiding our leadership.

8) We are the only restoration branch (truly the natural branch) that is able to fully say we are fulling prophecies, all others are stagnant to their geography, solitude, or have removed prophets and apostles (irony - first sign of apostasy - to reject prophetic servants).

Edited August 8, 2017 by Anddenex

[SpiritDragon]

7 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

D&C 13?

Text search the D&C on the phrase "last time"?

I think some of this came up in a Greg Smith's two-part article against Denver Snuffer that ran in the Mormon Interpreter a couple years ago; but I don't have time to hunt up the link at the moment.

Thanks JAG, When I read through that`(D&C 13) recently it seemed to certainly help the case, but isn't quite what I'm hoping to find. As for the two-part snuffer article I listened to the audio copy of each today while painting - good stuff. It was actually a combination of you and @The Folk Prophet who shared links to the Mormon Interpreter Snuffer articles a few years back, and I thank you both again. 

For anyone interested in the links JAG is mentioning the articles are available below:

http://www.mormoninterpreter.com/passing-up-the-heavenly-gift-part-one-of-two/

http://www.mormoninterpreter.com/passing-up-the-heavenly-gift-part-two-of-two/

These may also be of interest:

http://www.mormoninterpreter.com/a-response-to-denver-snuffers-essay-on-plural-marriage-adoption-and-the-supposed-falling-away-of-the-church-part-1-ignoring-inconvenient-evidence/

http://www.mormoninterpreter.com/a-response-to-denver-snuffers-essay-on-plural-marriage-adoption-and-the-supposed-falling-away-of-the-church-part-2-facade-or-reality/

[SpiritDragon]

4 hours ago, Sunday21 said:

@SpiritDragon

Is this what you are looking for?

The Lord Will Never Permit the Living Prophet to Lead the Church Astray

• President Wilford Woodruff declared that we can have full confidence in the direction the prophet is leading the Church: “The Lord will never permit me or any other man who stands as President of this Church to lead you astray. It is not in the programme. It is not in the mind of God. If I were to attempt that, the Lord would remove me out of my place, and so He will any other man who attempts to lead the children of men astray from the oracles of God and from their duty” (Official Declaration 1, “Excerpts from Three Addresses by President Wilford Woodruff Regarding the Manifesto”; emphasis added).

• President Harold B. Lee taught this same principle: “You keep your eye upon him whom the Lord called, and I say to you now, knowing that I stand in this position, you don’t need to worry about the President of the Church ever leading people astray, because the Lord would remove him out of his place before He would ever allow that to happen” (The Teachings of Harold B. Lee, ed. Clyde J. Williams [1996], 533).

• I suppose that one could fast & pray about these statements?

Thanks, @Sunday21

These are certainly along the lines of what I'm hoping to find, but I'm hoping to find something from before the martyrdom of Joseph Smith. The reason for being so specific as to the timeline is that many of my family have fallen pray to the Snuffer fallacies and another one is doubting the current church, but believes strongly in the prophet Joseph Smith. My hope is to help this family member to see that Joseph taught that the church we have today is the church he restored. So when the source is Brigham Young or later, the view is that the statement no longer holds up.

[Sunday21]

@SpiritDragon. Tricky problem! But glad, that it is not you, we are trying to save! Was getting a little worried about you...now I have to go and look up Snuffer. What a name! Sounds like a super villain! 

[Vort]

5 minutes ago, Sunday21 said:

@SpiritDragon. Tricky problem! But glad, that it is not you, we are trying to save! Was getting a little worried about you...now I have to go and look up Snuffer. What a name! Sounds like a super villain! 

Not a supervillain, just a sad, lost soul who has fallen prey to the old deception of "I'm much smarter than those small-minded men who lead the Church."

[Just_A_Guy]

15 minutes ago, SpiritDragon said:

Thanks, @Sunday21

These are certainly along the lines of what I'm hoping to find, but I'm hoping to find something from before the martyrdom of Joseph Smith. The reason for being so specific as to the timeline is that many of my family have fallen pray to the Snuffer fallacies and another one is doubting the current church, but believes strongly in the prophet Joseph Smith. My hope is to help this family member to see that Joseph taught that the church we have today is the church he restored. So when the source is Brigham Young or later, the view is that the statement no longer holds up.

I'm shooting from memory here; but I think the King Follett discourse and/or Sermon in the Grove may have included passing references to the notion of the Church having gone into apostasy.  They may be worth a look.

I believe Elder Oaks was in Idaho within the last couple of years specifically to counter Snufferism.  It might be a good idea to contact his office and see whether they can point you to additional resources or counsel.

I think the best things one can do to combat Snufferism are a) to show how traditional Mormonism does allow for, and even encourage, the sort of "charismatic" spirituality that Snufferites legitimately crave; and b) bone up on your Church history (Snufferites tend to play fast and loose with historical facts; trying to renew battles that the Church fought and won against the FLDS fifty years ago).

[Sunday21]

Wow! I was right the first time. Super Villian

In the past, Snuffer claimed that he intended Passing the Heavenly Gift and his other works to promote loyalty to the LDS Church,^[8][9] and that he would not be instrumental in starting a new religion.^[10] In 2014, however, Snuffer began to claim that "the Lord terminated the priesthood authority" of all church leadership who were involved in his excommunication,^[11]including the First Presidency. Since that time, Snuffer has been at the center of a loosely organized movement of followers who now see him as a prophet. As of 2017, approximately 50 organizations worldwide have registered on an affiliated website.^[12] Snuffer's adherents gathered in conferences in 2016 and 2017,^[13] the latter of which resulted in Snuffer's teachings being canonized as scripture.^[14] The movement's canon now consists of, among other texts, a reworking of scripture from the mainstream Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, including the Book of Mormon, Snuffer's expanded translation of the Book of John, and several of Snuffer's own revelations.^[15] The movement is notable for a de-empahasis on hierarchy and organization, with some fellowships (for example, the movement's Minnesota fellowship) claiming to have no leadership.^[16]

[SpiritDragon]

7 minutes ago, Sunday21 said:

@SpiritDragon. Tricky problem! But glad, that it is not you, we are trying to save! Was getting a little worried about you...now I have to go and look up Snuffer. What a name! Sounds like a super villain! 

Thanks for your concern, I'm afraid I don't have the strongest of testimonies these days either, so your concern wouldn't be amiss in my direction either. The difficulty for me is faith in general and trusting feelings of the spirit, in conjunction with never having enjoyed church. I've unfortunately had many experiences where I felt as though I was given an answer by the spirit that later appeared to be wrong. This has made it very difficult for me to trust the feelings that I believe to be the spirit. Not enjoying church doesn't help matters.

[SpiritDragon]

4 minutes ago, Vort said:

Not a supervillain, just a sad, lost soul who has fallen prey to the old deception of "I'm much smarter than those small-minded men who lead the Church."

Indeed, a sad sad man who "snuffs" out happiness in the families of those his teachings take root in.

[Sunday21]

Just now, SpiritDragon said:

Thanks for your concern, I'm afraid I don't have the strongest of testimonies these days either, so your concern wouldn't be amiss in my direction either. The difficulty for me is faith in general and trusting feelings of the spirit, in conjunction with never having enjoyed church. I've unfortunately had many experiences where I felt as though I was given an answer by the spirit that later appeared to be wrong. This has made it very difficult for me to trust the feelings that I believe to be the spirit. Not enjoying church doesn't help matters.

Dear @SpiritDragon, I feel for you. Going through the same thing myself with false promptings. Big problem for me. Visit to temple a possibility? Hard to talk to others about this as I know! Thinking of you!

[SpiritDragon]

5 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

I'm shooting from memory here; but I think the King Follett discourse and/or Sermon in the Grove may have included passing references to the notion of the Church having gone into apostasy.  They may be worth a look.

I believe Elder Oaks was in Idaho within the last couple of years specifically to counter Snufferism.  It might be a good idea to contact his office and see whether they can point you to additional resources or counsel.

I think the best things one can do to combat Snufferism are a) to show how traditional Mormonism does allow for, and even encourage, the sort of "charismatic" spirituality that Snufferites legitimately crave; and b) bone up on your Church history (Snufferites tend to play fast and loose with historical facts; trying to renew battles that the Church fought and won against the FLDS fifty years ago).

Thanks, I'll have to look into those.