What is covetousness?


MrShorty
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Pondering the idea of covetousness last night. Because covetousness usually hits at questions of wealth, my thought wandered across Tevye and his well known song "If I were a Rich Man" (If you need a refresher, here's Topol's version from the movie version of the musical: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBHZFYpQ6nc ). In short, is Tevye coveting what he perceive a rich man would have, or is he simply daydreaming? Is there a difference?

I came across this previous thread

which had some interesting ideas. Maybe should have tacked this onto the end of the old thread, but flipped a coin and decided to start new this time.

Edited by MrShorty
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I would give Tevye a break. I believe (and I'm applying my understanding of President Hinkley's remark about the church) that the commandments can make bad folks good and good folks better. With that in mind I believe that it's acceptable to see my neighbor's possessions and want the like, followed by whatever appropriate actions will enable me to achieve what my neighbor has achieved. Covetousness enters in when I want *my neighbor's possessions*, if you see the difference, followed by whatever inappropriate (leading on to evil) actions will enable me to take what my neighbor has.

 

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Daydreaming = thinking about what it would be like if you happened to find a way to make some money, like your neighbor (but being happy that your neighbor is doing well and wanting to do well like your neighbor is).

Coveting = thinking your neighbor doesn't deserve to be rich or to have this blessing or that blessing, and feeling ill will towards your neighbor, because you think you deserve whatever your neighbor has.

See how there is hostility towards one's fellow man in actually coveting something, as opposed to daydreaming?  And yet, how often do we say, "so-and-so doesn't deserve a nice house because they are less righteous than me" or "so-and-so doesnt deserve this promotion because they are lazier than me".  This is coveting.  You should be happy when your fellow man is successful, or gets a windfall, or whatever, and sad when your fellow man hits difficult times.  You should want to be successful along with your neighbor, instead of being successful instead of your neighbor.

I remember, right out of law school, a friend of mine got a really nice job while I was still unemployed, despite the fact I had much better grades.  My gut natural man reaction was to say to myself, "How unfair!  I deserve that job!  Why is he successful, he is a total slacker?"  That is coveting, and I found myself at first having these thoughts.  I caught myself, and I changed my thinking to, "Well, looks like the Lord blessed my friend with some much-needed blessings!  I wish him all the best.  My success will come later and at a time and manner of the Lord's choosing, and I will be happy with what the Lord decides to bless me with (although it would be awesome if I made enough for a middle class lifestyle).

See the difference there?  The Lord wants us, rather than to be jealous of one another, to all realize we are in this together and to be happy when someone else is blessed.

Edited by DoctorLemon
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What is covetousness?

Covetousness appears to be what I do everyday as a father seeking to provide a better economic life allowing my family to enjoy more of what this global world has to offer that others have been blessed with.

:guilty:

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On 7/22/2017 at 0:02 PM, MrShorty said:

Pondering the idea of covetousness last night. Because covetousness usually hits at questions of wealth, my thought wandered across Tevye and his well known song "If I were a Rich Man" (If you need a refresher, here's Topol's version from the movie version of the musical: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBHZFYpQ6nc ). In short, is Tevye coveting what he perceive a rich man would have, or is he simply daydreaming? Is there a difference?

I came across this previous thread

which had some interesting ideas. Maybe should have tacked this onto the end of the old thread, but flipped a coin and decided to start new this time.

I think covetousness entails a willingness to do whatever it takes (usually by way of breaking the other commandments) to get the object of one's lust, even if such actions are not accomplsihed by reason of ability or opportunity. It is the opposite of the willingness we promise the Lord in the sacrament prayer.

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I appreciate the responses. Please forgive if I have misread, but the responses seem to presume that I am starting from the view that Tevye is clearly guilty, which is not the case. I am not certain of the conclusion, and my inclination is, likewise, to believe that Tevye is not covetous.

I need that statement because, in order to push the discussion a little deeper, I want to point out some additional aspects that I see.

With DrLemmon, I will agree that animosity figures into what covetousness is. Animosity towards specific individuals (I don't see this in Tevye), animosity towards the more generic "rich" class (does Tevye hate rich people?), and, I would add, animosity towards God. Regarding this last one, my daughter, without coming to a final conclusion, zoomed right in on the closing lines from the song:

Quote

Lord who made the lion and lamb. You decreed I should be what I am. Would it spoil some vast eternal plan, If I were a wealthy man?

I don't know if Tevye is genuinely coveting here, but perhaps the question to ask is -- where does animosity towards God fit into this? Can one have frustration with God, but not animosity?

Or, as Anddenex (flippantly, jokingly, loosely, what word do I want here?) suggests, is it something all who are working for economic gain are guilty of? Though, we frequently say that seeking for riches is not inherently evil, as long as one is converted to the Gospel so that one is seeking wealth to ultimately help build up the kingdom, at what point does "daydreaming" about obtaining riches go beyond this? As he dreams about having stairways "leading no where just for show", some of his daydreams clearly are beyond sustenance or building up the kingdom of God.

I mostly agree with CV75's thought that covetousness entails a willingness to disregard morality to obtain one's desire. I don't know that Tevye expresses this willingness to go beyond right and wrong. In fact, I would say that he is entirely willing to remain poor as long as he believes that God wants him to be poor, suggesting that he is willing to submit to God's will. But what does the daydreaming mean here -- the daydream, the expression of his desire that God would change His mind about Tevye being poor?

 

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1 hour ago, MrShorty said:

But what does the daydreaming mean here -- the daydream, the expression of his desire that God would change His mind about Tevye being poor?

I suppose the daydream is to coveting as lust is to adultery, or anger/hate is to killing. This is why we are to pray as the Spirit directs (D&C 8:10, 88:65).

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28 minutes ago, CV75 said:

I suppose the daydream is to coveting as lust is to adultery, or anger/hate is to killing. This is why we are to pray as the Spirit directs (D&C 8:10, 88:65).

I reckon that depends on how lustful your daydream is.  Sometimes a daydream is just a simple daydream and no harm in it.  If, on the other hand, it includes resentment, anger, pride, and other negative feelings and attitudes, then yeah, it's not a daydream anymore, it's something far worse.

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56 minutes ago, zil said:

I reckon that depends on how lustful your daydream is.  Sometimes a daydream is just a simple daydream and no harm in it.  If, on the other hand, it includes resentment, anger, pride, and other negative feelings and attitudes, then yeah, it's not a daydream anymore, it's something far worse.

That's right -- it's really just a matter of degree. And the daydream could also be a point Tevye simply passed along in his pondering more noble desires. Light -hearted entertainment often helps us touch on more serious issues of the human condition privately. The last verse of the song could be a interesting Sunday School discussion:

If I were rich, I'd have the time that I lack
To sit in the synagogue and pray.
And maybe have a seat by the Eastern wall.
And I'd discuss the holy books with the learned men, several hours every day.
That would be the sweetest thing of all.

Is being rich really that necessary for worship? Considering Tevye's poverty, is not having enough a barrier to worship?

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6 hours ago, MrShorty said:

Or, as Anddenex (flippantly, jokingly, loosely, what word do I want here?) suggests, is it something all who are working for economic gain are guilty of?

"What word do I want here"? How about, a sincere, honest, genuine declaration that I made specifying I believe I am guilty of coveting (with an emoticon that sadly says, yes I'm guilty-- probably not everyday though -- exaggeration), and I wasn't suggesting that all who are working for economic gain are guilty of; however, I was only referring to the subject question, not the whole topic.

Tevye's inquiry in the beginning of the song, nothing inherently wrong with being rich or poor. Nothing to be ashamed of if you are poor (although the natural man holds poor in lower esteem), and it is not great honor either. Is he coveting, yes, merely because he is seeking the honor of man. Where does he want to build his house? How will the man in the town come meet him? The intent behind his desire appears to be surrounded around the honors of men, and if so, yes this is coveting. His desire is to build himself up for honors of men.

Scriptural words that enter my mind with covetousness, "I ought not to harrow up in my desires the firm decree of a just God, for I know that he granteth unto men according to their desire, whether it be unto death or unto life; yea, I know that he allotteth unto men, yea, decreeth unto them decrees which are unalterable, according to their wills, whether they be unto salvation or unto destruction." (Alma 29:4)

To dream of something better doesn't equate with covetousness.

 

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On 7/23/2017 at 3:31 PM, CV75 said:

That's right -- it's really just a matter of degree.

This is an interesting part of this -- when something is sinful "by degrees". One one end of the continuum we have all kinds of harmless daydreams, on the other end are the connivings (is that a word?) of criminals. Somewhere in the gray area in between it goes from sin to not-sin, but it isn't always clearly demarcated.

On 7/23/2017 at 3:31 PM, CV75 said:

Is being rich really that necessary for worship? Considering Tevye's poverty, is not having enough a barrier to worship?

I also find that a fascinating part of the song, especially as I compare how Tevye relates to God throughout the rest of the play. He is not shy with God, talking to Him on many other occasions throughout the play. How much of this relationship is more worship than sitting around discussing holy books with learned men?

@Anddenex  Alma 29 could have some very interesting insights into this. Alma goes from wishing/daydreaming that he could speak with the power of angels in converting people to Christ. But, as you note, he says that he sins in this wish, because God grants to people according to their desires (and people don't want to be called to repentance by angels). One thing I am pulling out of your part in this discussion is trying to understand the relationship between "daydreams", "ambition", and "contentment". Perhaps part of this discussion of covetousness is that gray area between "so content with my lot that I never try to do better" and "so dissatisfied with my lot in life that I would do anything (including criminal and sinful things and carry around that animosity towards God and man) to change my situation".

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I had thought there might be a change in definition that we needed to consider, but it looks like not:

Quote
  1. to wish for earnestly covet an award

  2. to desire (what belongs to another) inordinately or culpably The king's brother coveted the throne.

-- Miriam-Webster

Quote

1. To desire or wish for, with eagerness; to desire earnestly to obtain or possess; in a good sense.

COVET earnestly the best gifts. 1 Corinthians 12:31.

2. To desire inordinately; to desire that which it is unlawful to obtain or possess; in a bad sense.

Thou shalt not covet thy neighbors house, wife or servant. Exodus 20:17.

--Webster's 1828 Dictionary

The definitions are the same, but notice the 1828 version.  It specifically references the scriptures which apply.  The commandment (Exodus) to not covet is "the bad sense".  

To answer the question, we need to look at the part that answers: what is "the bad sense"?  Specifically: inordinately, culpably, unlawfully.  Did Tevye want it inordinately, culpably, or unlawfully?  I don't think so.

Now, beyond that there is also another sin: lusting after riches.  When does the desire for comforts and the benefits of wealth become "lust"?  That's a judgment call with too many nuances to consider answering that definitively.  I'd just say I'm doing the best I can to secure financial stability for my family.  If that means making $20k/yr or $20MM/year is entirely different for each individual and family.

Quote

18 But before ye seek for riches, seek ye for the kingdom of God.

19 And after ye have obtained a hope in Christ ye shall obtain riches, if ye seek them; and ye will seek them for the intent to do good—to clothe the naked, and to feed the hungry, and to liberate the captive, and administer relief to the sick and the afflicted.

Jacob 2:18-19

Edited by Guest
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I would suggest a different view of covetousness.  I believe it all begins with a bad attitude concerning the blessings that one has.  All the other stuff are just excuses to cover up our ungratefulness and resentments.  Contrary to popular opinion, I do not believe that covetousness has that much to do with what we do not have as it is the failure (and I would add here the lack of intelligence) to be thankful for what we do have.

 

The Traveler

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10 hours ago, MrShorty said:

This is an interesting part of this -- when something is sinful "by degrees". One one end of the continuum we have all kinds of harmless daydreams, on the other end are the connivings (is that a word?) of criminals. Somewhere in the gray area in between it goes from sin to not-sin, but it isn't always clearly demarcated.

I also find that a fascinating part of the song, especially as I compare how Tevye relates to God throughout the rest of the play. He is not shy with God, talking to Him on many other occasions throughout the play. How much of this relationship is more worship than sitting around discussing holy books with learned men?

@Anddenex  Alma 29 could have some very interesting insights into this. Alma goes from wishing/daydreaming that he could speak with the power of angels in converting people to Christ. But, as you note, he says that he sins in this wish, because God grants to people according to their desires (and people don't want to be called to repentance by angels). One thing I am pulling out of your part in this discussion is trying to understand the relationship between "daydreams", "ambition", and "contentment". Perhaps part of this discussion of covetousness is that gray area between "so content with my lot that I never try to do better" and "so dissatisfied with my lot in life that I would do anything (including criminal and sinful things and carry around that animosity towards God and man) to change my situation".

I think any demarcation is clarified in the Judgement and involves the true desires and intents of our hearts.

The good thing about the character Tevye is he is pretty much an “everyman” and we can hopefully assess our own sincerity in relation to how we perceive him, and try to do better ourselves. I do not think such characters are examples to follow, but their color and provocativeness can inspire us to determine to do better.

I think the relationship between contentment and dissatisfaction is like the dynamic between faith and knowledge. With real intent in learning (knowledge) and following the Lord’s will (faith), one builds upon the other in an edifying way. We are content until we intend to follow the Lord more completely, and our dissatisfaction then propels us to improve.

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