eddified Posted July 31, 2017 Report Share Posted July 31, 2017 (edited) Spouse coming out with Gender Dysphoria - how to handle it? Divorce OK or not? (Not my spouse.) I just read this article: Title: Former Mormon leader is building a new life -- as a woman Link: http://www.heraldextra.com/news/local/faith/former-mormon-leader-is-building-a-new-life--/article_cf474980-6cb2-5282-97fe-0da9e068f585.html My summary: This person was a former stake president, who struggled their entire life with gender dysphoria. This person has now been excommunicated for "being a woman". This person has not stopped attending church, and apparently wishes to be re-baptized. This person also attends church with this person's wife. My purpose in posting this is to find out what the community thinks the poor wife's valid options are. I've heard some in this forum say something along the lines of, if there is no abuse, addiction, or adultery, then divorce shouldn't be considered a valid option. I'm just wondering if in this case of a husband & former LDS stake president, dressing up as a woman and taking hormones, etc, and being excommunicated, .... would this be a valid reason for divorce? I'm NOT asking about the gender issues, at least not directly. In this thread I do not wish to discuss this from the point of view of the person suffering from gender dysphoria. I'd only like to see what the community has to say if they put themselves in the wife's place in this story. Please discuss. To be clear, I'm not asking what the wife should do. That's another question entirely -- it's up to her and God what she "should" do. I'm only asking what you would consider the valid options for her -- is divorce on the table, or should it be off-limits in this case? Edited July 31, 2017 by eddified Backroads 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anatess2 Posted July 31, 2017 Report Share Posted July 31, 2017 (edited) Divorce is not ok. If there's anybody that can help come up with healthy coping mechanisms for gender dysphoria, it's the spouse. The solidity of that presence in a confusing time will make a difference. But, of course, I'm assuming that the spouse's grip on Christ is solid. Edited July 31, 2017 by anatess2 eddified 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jane_Doe Posted July 31, 2017 Report Share Posted July 31, 2017 Honestly, if put in that uber-tough position, I would go straight to the Lord for options. I would not try to proscribe "ok" options from the outside. That's a highly personal highly individual things. Sunday21, eddified, askandanswer and 2 others 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 31, 2017 Report Share Posted July 31, 2017 (edited) I think forcing an active, righteous LDS spouse into a quasi-homosexual relationship IS abuse, frankly. I think if my wife decided to actually physically become a man I would be unable to stomach it and would divorce. I am sorry but this is one step too far for me to handle. Edited July 31, 2017 by DoctorLemon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anatess2 Posted July 31, 2017 Report Share Posted July 31, 2017 (edited) 4 minutes ago, DoctorLemon said: I think forcing an active, righteous LDS spouse into a quasi-homosexual relationship IS abuse, frankly. I think if my wife decided to actually physically become a man I would be unable to stomach it and would divorce. I am sorry but this is one step too far for me to handle. Yes, forcing a righteous spouse to do anything is never ok. But this is the problem with most marriages - when faced with a problem, the first reaction is always "What's gonna happen to me?" instead of "What's gonna happen to my spouse?". It's like the promise of loving the spouse and helping them come closer to Christ only applies... until it doesn't. Edited July 31, 2017 by anatess2 priesthoodpower and Backroads 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeuroTypical Posted July 31, 2017 Report Share Posted July 31, 2017 (edited) I actually met a guy in this situation. He married his wife, they had kids, and here ten years later, he was struggling with overpowering thoughts/desires that he's really a woman. He was in therapy, both individual and marriage therapy, trying to treat the thing as a mental illness. He was setting boundaries of behavior for himself, so he'd be able to stay on the correct side of them. Shaving his chest was crossing a boundary - so he was struggling with swimming. Wearing women's clothing was crossing a boundary. He was abandoning a kind of medical treatment for a condition he may or may not have had, because the treatment involved a medication which causes males to grow breasts. Looking at his bare chest in the mirror for longer than a minute was crossing a boundary - as was indulging in imagination trips about being femaile Dood was struggling. He was fighting a battle with himself, and with a bunch of society. I went away understanding a bit more about why suicide rates are off the chart for folks in that situation - he was in anguish. His wife had openly stated she'd stick with him as long as he did everything in his power to stay a him. The minute he decided to shoot for being a 'her', wife would file for divorce. That was her boundary. Lots of struggles people have that I'm really, really, really glad I don't have. This one is in the upper-third of the pile. I have little I can offer in the way of advice or righteous judgment for folks in this situation and the decisions they make. Edited July 31, 2017 by NeuroTypical Anddenex, Just_A_Guy, Backroads and 4 others 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anddenex Posted July 31, 2017 Report Share Posted July 31, 2017 9 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said: I went away understanding a bit more about why suicide rates are off the chart for folks in that situation - he was in anguish. His wife had openly stated she'd stick with him as long as he did everything in his power to stay a him. The minute he decided to shoot for being a 'her', wife would file for divorce. That was her boundary. (emphasis added) The bolded portion of NeuroTypical's comment is where the line would be drawn for me. If the spouse is actively still living the gospel, fighting the good (hard) fight, then I don't see any reason why divorce would be on the table. We all struggle with something, as long as we are moving forward we should allow the atonement to work for our spouse. If the spouse comes out and is not willing to continue forward, then divorce would be on the table. a mustard seed, seashmore, Sunday21 and 3 others 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 31, 2017 Report Share Posted July 31, 2017 13 minutes ago, Anddenex said: The bolded portion of NeuroTypical's comment is where the line would be drawn for me. If the spouse is actively still living the gospel, fighting the good (hard) fight, then I don't see any reason why divorce would be on the table. We all struggle with something, as long as we are moving forward we should allow the atonement to work for our spouse. If the spouse comes out and is not willing to continue forward, then divorce would be on the table. Amen, brother! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeuroTypical Posted July 31, 2017 Report Share Posted July 31, 2017 The "big three" of divorce are often considered to be abuse, adultery, addiction. Sounds like a fourth has some acceptance here - not keeping a mental illness under acceptable control. I hope this doesn't sound snarky. I have no snark to offer here. I'm a fan of the three "a"'s, and am just glad I don't have to make a decision like this. eddified, Sunday21, NightSG and 1 other 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MormonGator Posted July 31, 2017 Report Share Posted July 31, 2017 I'm as anti divorce as you get, but this would be a real bitter pill to swallow. Sad all around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
estradling75 Posted July 31, 2017 Report Share Posted July 31, 2017 4 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said: The "big three" of divorce are often considered to be abuse, adultery, addiction. Sounds like a fourth has some acceptance here - not keeping a mental illness under acceptable control. I hope this doesn't sound snarky. I have no snark to offer here. I'm a fan of the three "a"'s, and am just glad I don't have to make a decision like this. Please remember the three "A" only mean it opens a door of possibility that was otherwise closed. It doesn't mean you throw yourself through the door the moment you see signs of one of the A's. Also is not the reason that Addiction on the list because it represents "out of control behavior" that jeopardizes health, safety and security of others that depend on them? (In fact you can say Abuse does too) Just because gender identity issues doesn't fit into clever word play does not mean it that it does not raise the same kind of problems. NeuroTypical, eddified, unixknight and 2 others 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Traveler Posted July 31, 2017 Report Share Posted July 31, 2017 1 hour ago, DoctorLemon said: I think forcing an active, righteous LDS spouse into a quasi-homosexual relationship IS abuse, frankly. I think if my wife decided to actually physically become a man I would be unable to stomach it and would divorce. I am sorry but this is one step too far for me to handle. I mostly agree – however, I admit this is uncharted waters for me. Definitely - I would seek divine assistance and guidance whenever trying to navigate uncharted waters – not because I do not know where I want to go but because in such waters – I am not sure of the best route or for that matter if there actually is a way through such hazards. (just back out and avoid) One possibility I would strongly consider and explorer, should I find myself in such a circumstance that in anyway involved a spouse with gender confusion; would be an annulment rather than a divorce. But I am not an expert is such matters – just something I would explore as an option. I am also unwilling to say what I would do as far as friendship and support. Although I have to maintain my own sanity – this would involve much more than me; because I have 5 children and 17 grandchildren. It is also my understanding of covenants that any support of things that are contrary to covenants is not a good idea – I intend to live by the covenant I have made with G-d, regardless of what everybody in the world intends to do. The Traveler seashmore, eddified, a mustard seed and 1 other 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prisonchaplain Posted July 31, 2017 Report Share Posted July 31, 2017 My understanding, from an admittedly brief look at the DSM-V (Psychology's primary diagnostic tool) is that gender dysphoria is most often treated by allowing for steps that will resolve the dysphoria. A man may wear panties once a month, and that is enough. Another may wear makeup once a week, inside his home. Another might shave his chest,etc. Only a very small % end up insisting they need an operation to physically change their apparent gender. So, they short and mid-term solutions would seem to be the very difficult patient process of walking with a spouse through therapy. I'd insist on a therapist that was both flexible and faith-sensitive. Only in a very few of these situations would a spouse have to face the decision of what to do if the dysphoria results in a need to consider divorce. Backroads and seashmore 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snigmorder Posted July 31, 2017 Report Share Posted July 31, 2017 58 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said: My understanding, from an admittedly brief look at the DSM-V (Psychology's primary diagnostic tool) is that gender dysphoria is most often treated by allowing for steps that will resolve the dysphoria. A man may wear panties once a month, and that is enough. Another may wear makeup once a week, inside his home. Another might shave his chest,etc. Only a very small % end up insisting they need an operation to physically change their apparent gender. So, they short and mid-term solutions would seem to be the very difficult patient process of walking with a spouse through therapy. I'd insist on a therapist that was both flexible and faith-sensitive. Only in a very few of these situations would a spouse have to face the decision of what to do if the dysphoria results in a need to consider divorce. I don't trust the DSM. But I'm a troglodyte, so please ignore me. eddified 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eddified Posted July 31, 2017 Author Report Share Posted July 31, 2017 Just now, Snigmorder said: I don't trust the DSM. But I'm a troglodyte, so please ignore me. I appreciate your distrust in the DSM. The DSM was written by sinful humans who didn't necessary have any spiritual guidance when writing it. Many people look to it as a source of truth, but its origins remain fallen (in the sense that humankind is fallen). NightSG 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snigmorder Posted July 31, 2017 Report Share Posted July 31, 2017 (edited) 12 minutes ago, eddified said: I appreciate your distrust in the DSM. The DSM was written by sinful humans who didn't necessary have any spiritual guidance when writing it. Many people look to it as a source of truth, but its origins remain fallen (in the sense that humankind is fallen). Nicholas Cummings, a former president of the American Psychological Association, basically said homosexual doctors pushed their way to the top of the APA and took homosexual attraction out of the DSM. Now, apparently, the APA is full of homosexuals. I don't trust the book. Edited July 31, 2017 by Snigmorder eddified, Backroads, a mustard seed and 1 other 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prisonchaplain Posted July 31, 2017 Report Share Posted July 31, 2017 Psychology, like most academic fields, is not intended to be faith-affirming. Nevertheless, many APA certified therapists are openly faith-centered. IMHO, the bulk of DSM-V is valid, because it simply lists mental health symptoms, suggests likely diagnoses, and offers a few mainstream treatments. It's mostly a manual. The therapist can turn it into a useful tool or a weapon. Besides, even if we accept that APA is now leaning towards transgender affirmation, the fact that the manual says gender change surgery is the last extreme measure, and that most find satisfaction in an occasional opposite-gender action, only underscores my point--that for most marriages, one spouse having gender dysphoria should not trigger automatic talks of divorce. Snigmorder and seashmore 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fether Posted July 31, 2017 Report Share Posted July 31, 2017 (edited) A friend of mine told me the other day that shortly after her marriage things got really really hard. There were quite a few attributes and ways of life her husband had that took her by surprise. She told me that even with these challenges and often times completely opposite views on things, that when they reached the Celestial Kingdom that all would be made right, that there would be only great joy that they are there together. Whether this brother enters the kingdom or not... I'm not sure. If it is a real mental illness then I imagine that he will if it is just straight rebellion then he won't. Edited July 31, 2017 by Fether Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
priesthoodpower Posted July 31, 2017 Report Share Posted July 31, 2017 6 hours ago, NeuroTypical said: I actually met a guy in this situation. He married his wife, they had kids, and here ten years later, he was struggling with overpowering thoughts/desires that he's really a woman. food for thought: I met a woman in her 60's that recently moved into my area after living in Washington state most her life. She all of a sudden felt a connection with the rocks and boulders all around us in the mountains and rivers etc.. She started studying more about rocks and has this ability to communitcate with the rocks, she feels that in a previous lifetime she was a rock. As I hear more stories like this Im curious to learn more about other truths that exist outside of mormonism. As far as im aware our church doesnt address the topic of reincarnation and so I think its totally possible that the veil is thinner for some of us that maybe the feelings/experiences of a past life are felt while living in our current one. Maybe some of these people born into a male body also inhabited a female body in a previous life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just_A_Guy Posted August 1, 2017 Report Share Posted August 1, 2017 (edited) The 3 A's is a useful paradigm coined (IIRC) by Dr. Laura; but I think the best LDS formulation is President Faust's verbiage about "a prolonged and apparently irredeemable relationship that destroys a person’s dignity as a human being." And I think @DoctorLemon gets to the crux of the issue: in the scenario envisioned by the OP, the spouse with GD is attempting to convert the marriage into a homosexual relationship. The moment it turns homosexual it's no longer a marriage and there's nothing left to save. Wife has no responsibility to subject herself to that, any more than she has a responsibility to let her husband rent her out to a Las Vegas brothel on weekends for the sake of saving her marriage. And, for the same reason--he unilaterally made the relationship something other than marriage.. Edited August 1, 2017 by Just_A_Guy eddified, Backroads and NightSG 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zil Posted August 1, 2017 Report Share Posted August 1, 2017 45 minutes ago, priesthoodpower said: As far as im aware our church doesnt address the topic of reincarnation Sure it does: Quote But despite some similarities to LDS doctrine, reincarnation is contrary to revealed truth. The Prophet Joseph Smith taught that reincarnation is a false doctrine. It may well be a corruption or counterfeit of the plan of salvation. In any event, the doctrine of reincarnation does not agree with Latter-day Saint teachings about the purpose of life and, more important, the unique and essential mission of Jesus Christ as the Savior of the world. https://www.lds.org/ensign/1989/08/i-have-a-question?lang=eng See also: https://www.lds.org/manual/preach-my-gospel-a-guide-to-missionary-service/lesson-2-the-plan-of-salvation?lang=eng&query=reincarnation There were lots of Ensign articles about it in the 70s (probably because popular culture was in love with the idea) ... you probably don't find more or more often because the teachings of the gospel inherently rule out reincarnation. IMO, the woman you met either has a mental problem or is being deceived by evil spirits. She was never a rock. She cannot now communicate with rocks. Vort, person0, eddified and 1 other 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Backroads Posted August 1, 2017 Report Share Posted August 1, 2017 I wouldn't dare give advice to anyone other than to pray and counsel with those in authority and would likely assume the partner did the right thing whether remaining or divorcing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
askandanswer Posted August 1, 2017 Report Share Posted August 1, 2017 I think we should stay married to the same person we married. But when a person changes their gender, are they still the same person? I don't have a view one way or the other, I'm just raising the question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 1, 2017 Report Share Posted August 1, 2017 4 hours ago, Fether said: A friend of mine told me the other day that shortly after her marriage things got really really hard. There were quite a few attributes and ways of life her husband had that took her by surprise. She told me that even with these challenges and often times completely opposite views on things, that when they reached the Celestial Kingdom that all would be made right, that there would be only great joy that they are there together. Whether this brother enters the kingdom or not... I'm not sure. If it is a real mental illness then I imagine that he will if it is just straight rebellion then he won't. How do you know this has anything to do with transgender issues? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
priesthoodpower Posted August 1, 2017 Report Share Posted August 1, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, zil said: Sure it does: See also: https://www.lds.org/manual/preach-my-gospel-a-guide-to-missionary-service/lesson-2-the-plan-of-salvation?lang=eng&query=reincarnation There were lots of Ensign articles about it in the 70s (probably because popular culture was in love with the idea) ... you probably don't find more or more often because the teachings of the gospel inherently rule out reincarnation. Thanks for providing the link, I should have known better to search myself before posting. I think the historical teachings of reincarnation (as found in Hindu/Buddhist religions) do indeed go against LDS doctrine but I think reincarnation can very well fit into the gospel of Jesus Christ in one-way/shape or form. I dont want to go off topic and it would be to much to type in order to explain myself but my own personal info is probably best for my own personal self. 1 hour ago, zil said: IMO, the woman you met either has a mental problem or is being deceived by evil spirits. She was never a rock. She cannot now communicate with rocks. I wouldnt be so close minded, after all, many critics of our church say we are delusional to believe that our prophet speaks face to face with God. Edited August 1, 2017 by priesthoodpower Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.