A Chance for Everyone to Accept the Gospel

[clbent04]

Mormon doctrine states that in order to make it to Heaven, you must accept Jesus Christ and His gospel into your heart.  Everyone is to be extended a chance to accept Jesus Christ and His gospel whether in this life or the next.  But you only get one chance.

The Mormon doctrine of the “chance” shows the position of the Church that everyone has an equal shot at salvation, not just those who lived as Mormons here on Earth.  This doctrine treats outsiders to the Mormon religion much more fairly than how some other religions treat their own outsiders.

Many religions don’t consider salvation possible for those outside their own religion.  In my personal opinion, this is an incredibly close minded view to take.  Just because someone does not find the same path you are on in this life means that they are automatically damned to Hell?  I don’t see how you could honestly say you believe in a righteous, just and merciful God if that is how you believe.

The Mormon doctrine of the “chance” is reassuring to me that everyone is equally valued in the eyes of God.  It supports my belief that God is a loving God and respecter of no man.  God does not operate by favoritism.  He is the Great Keeper who ensures everyone has an equal chance to obtain salvation.

As long as you have a good heart, humble and receptive to the truths of God, and suppose you don’t receive an adequate chance to receive the gospel of Jesus Christ in mortal life, you are likely to fully embrace it in the life hereafter when your official chance to accept the gospel is extended to you.

I think an official chance is much more than someone just offering you a Book of Mormon or a couple missionaries knocking at your door.  I think an official chance involves you receiving God given knowledge that the Church is true.  Knowledge that impresses itself so deeply upon you, that if you were to refute the truth of it, you would unmistakably be aware that you have lied and sinned against the light (Doctrine and Covenants 82:3).

I believe most people will receive their chance after this life.  This assumption is based on the large percentage of people in mortality who never received or will receive God given knowledge of true gospel of Jesus Christ.

Mormons make up .2 percent of the world’s population (15 million out of 7 billion people accordingly to 2013 statistics).  In other words, 1 out of 500 people here on Earth is Mormon.  What a small percentage of the world’s population!  And to think of how many people outside the Church live equally virtuous lives compared to Mormons who are in good standing with the Lord.

For those who won’t receive their chance in this life and who are ready to receive the gospel of Jesus Christ in the life hereafter, what process do you think they would go through in order to do so?  Would baptism and all the other ordinances we perform here on Earth be just as necessary to go through in the next life to obtain salvation?  How long do you think the process would take?  I believe it will be quick and simple.  Already having a heart that is receptive to such truths is the part that takes time to develop.

n my mind, I don’t really see much of a distinction between Mormons and people of other faiths.  As long as you have good desires and live as you believe, I see us all as one flock.  I see everyone who lives as they believe equally worthy to receive Celestial glory regardless of what religion you claimed or didn’t claim while here on Earth.  This is dependent of course on if 1.) you never had a fair chance to accept the true gospel of Jesus Christ in mortality and, 2.) in the life hereafter you do accept it.  But if you already are in the category of having lived a faithful life to what you believed was right, what is to stop you from embracing further light and knowledge from the Lord?  Seems like it would be a simple transition for all our righteous brothers and sisters.

[Vort]

7 hours ago, clbent04 said:

Mormon doctrine states that in order to make it to Heaven, you must accept Jesus Christ and His gospel into your heart.  Everyone is to be extended a chance to accept Jesus Christ and His gospel whether in this life or the next.  But you only get one chance.

Mormon doctrine states no such thing.

7 hours ago, clbent04 said:

Would baptism and all the other ordinances we perform here on Earth be just as necessary to go through in the next life to obtain salvation?

Yes.

7 hours ago, clbent04 said:

what process do you think they would go through in order to do so?  ,,,How long do you think the process would take?

Such speculative questions cannot be answered, or probably even addressed. They depend on knowledge we don't have.

7 hours ago, clbent04 said:

As long as you have good desires and live as you believe, I see us all as one flock

The Lord appears to see things differently. Good desires and integrity are important elements, but are not sufficient by themselves.

7 hours ago, clbent04 said:

I see everyone who lives as they believe equally worthy to receive Celestial glory regardless of what religion you claimed or didn’t claim while here on Earth.

If this were true, the Church and the ordinances it provides would have no reason to exist.

[CV75]

12 hours ago, clbent04 said:

For those who won’t receive their chance in this life and who are ready to receive the gospel of Jesus Christ in the life hereafter, what process do you think they would go through in order to do so?  Would baptism and all the other ordinances we perform here on Earth be just as necessary to go through in the next life to obtain salvation?  How long do you think the process would take?  I believe it will be quick and simple.  Already having a heart that is receptive to such truths is the part that takes time to develop.

D&C 138 should answer your questions; please ask more if it doesn't.

[Fether]

17 hours ago, clbent04 said:

But you only get one chance..

God gives us plenty of chances. He gave me a chance today actually  he will give me another tomorrow too! Hopefully I can choose right and not need to repent of sins or weaknesses. But I get your point. It isn't as strict as "oh, after talking to the missionaries and having all the lessons you decided to turn your back on me? Have fun in HE-double-hockey-stock!"

I think the spirit of the concept is found in Alma 34:34 "Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis, that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world."

It is not that we only have one chance, it is that we our attitude toward those chances God gives us won't magically change at the judgement bar.

18 hours ago, clbent04 said:

Many religions don’t consider salvation possible for those outside their own religion.  In my personal opinion, this is an incredibly close minded view to take.  Just because someone does not find the same path you are on in this life means that they are automatically damned to Hell?  I don’t see how you could honestly say you believe in a righteous, just and merciful God if that is how you believe.

We too belief this actually. One who chooses a life of sin will not have their sins blotted out by just mercy/grace. Justice cannot be robbed.

 

Lastly, I feel like you are missing the factor of pre-earth life. It isn't a "luck-of-the-draw" when one is born into the gospel. Because of decisions we made in Pre-earth life, we have either been born in the gospel or have had it brought to us. Ephesians 1:3-5 talks about this and we receive a little more in seminary/institute manuals 

“The doctrine of foreordination applies to all members of the Church, not just to the Savior and His prophets. Before the creation of the earth, faithful women were given certain responsibilities and faithful men were foreordained to certain priesthood duties. Although you do not remember that time, you surely agreed to fulfill significant tasks in the service of your Father. As you prove yourself worthy, you will be given opportunities to fulfill the assignments you then received” - seminary student manual

AND

"In Ephesians 1:4–5, 11, Paul taught that before the world was created, members of the Church were chosen by God to receive the gospel on earth. This and other New Testament passages support the doctrine of premortal existence (see John 9:2; Romans 8:29; 1 Peter 1:2). The word predestinated (Ephesians 1:5, 11) means “appointed beforehand” or “foreordained.” Foreordained blessings are not unconditionally guaranteed but are dependent upon the righteous exercise of agency in this life (see Alma 13:2–3; the commentary for Romans 8:29–30)."

- Institute Manual on Ephesians 1

 

So ya... I don't know if We can say that those that never receive the gospel are those that were not valiant, but I do think we should note the factor of pre-earth life when discussing topics like this.

[Rob Osborn]

23 hours ago, clbent04 said:

Mormon doctrine states that in order to make it to Heaven, you must accept Jesus Christ and His gospel into your heart.  Everyone is to be extended a chance to accept Jesus Christ and His gospel whether in this life or the next.  But you only get one chance.

The Mormon doctrine of the “chance” shows the position of the Church that everyone has an equal shot at salvation, not just those who lived as Mormons here on Earth.  This doctrine treats outsiders to the Mormon religion much more fairly than how some other religions treat their own outsiders.

Many religions don’t consider salvation possible for those outside their own religion.  In my personal opinion, this is an incredibly close minded view to take.  Just because someone does not find the same path you are on in this life means that they are automatically damned to Hell?  I don’t see how you could honestly say you believe in a righteous, just and merciful God if that is how you believe.

The Mormon doctrine of the “chance” is reassuring to me that everyone is equally valued in the eyes of God.  It supports my belief that God is a loving God and respecter of no man.  God does not operate by favoritism.  He is the Great Keeper who ensures everyone has an equal chance to obtain salvation.

As long as you have a good heart, humble and receptive to the truths of God, and suppose you don’t receive an adequate chance to receive the gospel of Jesus Christ in mortal life, you are likely to fully embrace it in the life hereafter when your official chance to accept the gospel is extended to you.

I think an official chance is much more than someone just offering you a Book of Mormon or a couple missionaries knocking at your door.  I think an official chance involves you receiving God given knowledge that the Church is true.  Knowledge that impresses itself so deeply upon you, that if you were to refute the truth of it, you would unmistakably be aware that you have lied and sinned against the light (Doctrine and Covenants 82:3).

I believe most people will receive their chance after this life.  This assumption is based on the large percentage of people in mortality who never received or will receive God given knowledge of true gospel of Jesus Christ.

Mormons make up .2 percent of the world’s population (15 million out of 7 billion people accordingly to 2013 statistics).  In other words, 1 out of 500 people here on Earth is Mormon.  What a small percentage of the world’s population!  And to think of how many people outside the Church live equally virtuous lives compared to Mormons who are in good standing with the Lord.

For those who won’t receive their chance in this life and who are ready to receive the gospel of Jesus Christ in the life hereafter, what process do you think they would go through in order to do so?  Would baptism and all the other ordinances we perform here on Earth be just as necessary to go through in the next life to obtain salvation?  How long do you think the process would take?  I believe it will be quick and simple.  Already having a heart that is receptive to such truths is the part that takes time to develop.

n my mind, I don’t really see much of a distinction between Mormons and people of other faiths.  As long as you have good desires and live as you believe, I see us all as one flock.  I see everyone who lives as they believe equally worthy to receive Celestial glory regardless of what religion you claimed or didn’t claim while here on Earth.  This is dependent of course on if 1.) you never had a fair chance to accept the true gospel of Jesus Christ in mortality and, 2.) in the life hereafter you do accept it.  But if you already are in the category of having lived a faithful life to what you believed was right, what is to stop you from embracing further light and knowledge from the Lord?  Seems like it would be a simple transition for all our righteous brothers and sisters.

My own personal opinion is that there isnt any such thing as an official "chance". We all go through a myriad of chances and trials that end up in failure before we finally get it and are converted to the gospel of Jesus Christ. The only thing that matters is that at some point, after a myriad of failed attempts and chances, we finally figure it out.

[clbent04]

8 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

My own personal opinion is that there isnt any such thing as an official "chance". We all go through a myriad of chances and trials that end up in failure before we finally get it and are converted to the gospel of Jesus Christ. The only thing that matters is that at some point, after a myriad of failed attempts and chances, we finally figure it out.

@Fether @Vort @Rob Osborn My phrasing of "a chance for everyone to accept the gospel" refers to how everyone at one point or another will be extended the opportunity to accept the gospel of Jesus Christ whether in this life or the life hereafter.  How the chance is presented differs for a lot of people.  Some people live their mortals lives without ever hearing the name Jesus Christ.  They would fall into the category of those being extended the chance to accept the gospel in the life hereafter. Some people are given repeated attempts in this life to accept the gospel but willfully ignore the inner promptings they receive. Their chance may be lost once they die. How or when or how many times the chance is extended varies.  Me saying you only get one chance refers to not being able to go back and change the past if you decide not to accept Jesus Christ and the gospel into your heart after God has deemed you have been given a fair chance

[Rob Osborn]

8 hours ago, clbent04 said:

@Fether @Vort @Rob Osborn My phrasing of "a chance for everyone to accept the gospel" refers to how everyone at one point or another will be extended the opportunity to accept the gospel of Jesus Christ whether in this life or the life hereafter.  How the chance is presented differs for a lot of people.  Some people live their mortals lives without ever hearing the name Jesus Christ.  They would fall into the category of those being extended the chance to accept the gospel in the life hereafter. Some people are given repeated attempts in this life to accept the gospel but willfully ignore the inner promptings they receive. Their chance may be lost once they die. How or when or how many times the chance is extended varies.  Me saying you only get one chance refers to not being able to go back and change the past if you decide not to accept Jesus Christ and the gospel into your heart after God has deemed you have been given a fair chance

I dont like this folk doctrine we have. It leaves everything up in the air with no principle basis in sound logic. I have brought up my twins analogy many a time to show this flawed philosophy. Here it is-

Two twins are born into the covenant. They go to church every Sunday faithfully. When it comes time to go on their mission they both go and serve honorable missions. After their missions they both fall into inactivity and fall away. They both take up sinful lifestyles and start to drink and do drugs and break the law. For many years missionaries try to reconvert them but to no avail. One night, after a binge of drugs and alcohol they are driving home and hit and kill a little girl crossing the street on her bike. Both are taken to jail. The driver is charged with vehicular manslaughter.

The twin brother spends a few days in jail and is released. He posts bail for his brother awaiting trial and his brother comes home. Both brothers are disrought. That night they give it one last time for good measure and go out on the town. Late into the night they get into an altercation at a bar and the twin charged with manslaughter is stabbed and dies on the scene. His twin in great despair falls into a great deprssion and becomes homeless and an alcoholic. Two decades pass. One evening, after another night facing the cold he finds himself in the subway and he sees a little girl slip anf fall onto the tracks. Being in the right place at the right time he jumps down and saves her life. His actions are caught on the subway camera and he becomes a hero overnight. Even the Mayor has him over for dinner. The little girls family, being very well off, take him in and clothe and feed him.

Having this series of events happen he decides to change his life. He gets a fulltime job. At the job he meets Sandy, a widow who lived her marriage in bitter abuse. They fall in love. She happens to be LDS and through her he starts coming to church again. They are soon married civily and after a few years they get sealed in the temple. They both become very active in their callings and live the rest of their days lost in the Lords work. His last calling he serves in is being a stake missionary before he passes suddenly one night in his sleep.

So, the question becomes, after all this- where do both twins end up in the end? According to our doctrine and belief system the brother who was stabbed isnt going to the Celestial kingdom. But, it truly could have been either one that night the one was killed. It also could have been either one driving the car a few nights prior that killed the little girl. The point I bring up is that chance and circumstance plays a large part in how we end up. Those opportunities and circumstances ate mostly out of our control. I do however think it safe to say that eventually all will have the sufficient circumstances that favor their predicament that allows them the right opportunity to accept Christ and his gospel. Almost entirely, these circumstances happen far long after we have left this short life. It is thus why we are judged after the millennium where our future will be spent and not before.

[Guest]

@Rob Osborn,

It's not a folk doctrine. Just ask TFP.

It is sound doctrine that Jesus Christ is the Eternal Judge.  Your twin fable is a prime example for such judgment to be absolutely necessary.   Do you honestly believe you could declare what is fair or not based on that story?  I'd hope not.  But you insist on your view being the only way to package everything into a nice little package where there are no unknowns.

The truth of life is that only the Lord knows where we'll end up.  We can only gain confidence as we strive to live the life God would have us live.  

Don't like that uncertainty?  Then have your calling and election made sure.  Then endure to the end. So says the scriptures and the prophets.

Deny these basic truths and you're setting yourself up as a prophet.  It's your right to claim that. But forgive us if we don't follow your doctrine when he Spirit tells us otherwise.

[clbent04]

1 hour ago, Rob Osborn said:

I dont like this folk doctrine we have. It leaves everything up in the air with no principle basis in sound logic. I have brought up my twins analogy many a time to show this flawed philosophy. Here it is-

Two twins are born into the covenant. They go to church every Sunday faithfully. When it comes time to go on their mission they both go and serve honorable missions. After their missions they both fall into inactivity and fall away. They both take up sinful lifestyles and start to drink and do drugs and break the law. For many years missionaries try to reconvert them but to no avail. One night, after a binge of drugs and alcohol they are driving home and hit and kill a little girl crossing the street on her bike. Both are taken to jail. The driver is charged with vehicular manslaughter.

The twin brother spends a few days in jail and is released. He posts bail for his brother awaiting trial and his brother comes home. Both brothers are disrought. That night they give it one last time for good measure and go out on the town. Late into the night they get into an altercation at a bar and the twin charged with manslaughter is stabbed and dies on the scene. His twin in great despair falls into a great deprssion and becomes homeless and an alcoholic. Two decades pass. One evening, after another night facing the cold he finds himself in the subway and he sees a little girl slip anf fall onto the tracks. Being in the right place at the right time he jumps down and saves her life. His actions are caught on the subway camera and he becomes a hero overnight. Even the Mayor has him over for dinner. The little girls family, being very well off, take him in and clothe and feed him.

Having this series of events happen he decides to change his life. He gets a fulltime job. At the job he meets Sandy, a widow who lived her marriage in bitter abuse. They fall in love. She happens to be LDS and through her he starts coming to church again. They are soon married civily and after a few years they get sealed in the temple. They both become very active in their callings and live the rest of their days lost in the Lords work. His last calling he serves in is being a stake missionary before he passes suddenly one night in his sleep.

So, the question becomes, after all this- where do both twins end up in the end? According to our doctrine and belief system the brother who was stabbed isnt going to the Celestial kingdom. But, it truly could have been either one that night the one was killed. It also could have been either one driving the car a few nights prior that killed the little girl. The point I bring up is that chance and circumstance plays a large part in how we end up. Those opportunities and circumstances ate mostly out of our control. I do however think it safe to say that eventually all will have the sufficient circumstances that favor their predicament that allows them the right opportunity to accept Christ and his gospel. Almost entirely, these circumstances happen far long after we have left this short life. It is thus why we are judged after the millennium where our future will be spent and not before.

Or could it be PREDESIGN? That is, the first twin who was killed wasn't as faithful in the premortal life, and therefore it was by predesign he ended up being the driver that night the manslaughter charge occurred?

Think about how there is a correlation of the timing of death that occurs for children who have yet to reach age 8 and their guarantee that they will receive Celestial glory. 

If there is a correlation with children who die before reaching 8 years old and there guarantee to Celestial glory, which there is, is it unfathomable that the timing of death in other scenarios such as your example not be linked to our performance in the premortal life?

[Rob Osborn]

4 hours ago, Carborendum said:

@Rob Osborn,

It's not a folk doctrine. Just ask TFP.

It is sound doctrine that Jesus Christ is the Eternal Judge.  Your twin fable is a prime example for such judgment to be absolutely necessary.   Do you honestly believe you could declare what is fair or not based on that story?  I'd hope not.  But you insist on your view being the only way to package everything into a nice little package where there are no unknowns.

The truth of life is that only the Lord knows where we'll end up.  We can only gain confidence as we strive to live the life God would have us live.  

Don't like that uncertainty?  Then have your calling and election made sure.  Then endure to the end. So says the scriptures and the prophets.

Deny these basic truths and you're setting yourself up as a prophet.  It's your right to claim that. But forgive us if we don't follow your doctrine when he Spirit tells us otherwise.

You must have missed the point I was making. Good day mate.

[Rob Osborn]

3 hours ago, clbent04 said:

Or could it be PREDESIGN? That is, the first twin who was killed wasn't as faithful in the premortal life, and therefore it was by predesign he ended up being the driver that night the manslaughter charge occurred?

Think about how there is a correlation of the timing of death that occurs for children who have yet to reach age 8 and their guarantee that they will receive Celestial glory. 

If there is a correlation with children who die before reaching 8 years old and there guarantee to Celestial glory, which there is, is it unfathomable that the timing of death in other scenarios such as your example not be linked to our performance in the premortal life?

I just dont buy the whole bit about our performance in the premortal life being linked with when we die in mortality. God assuring one of celestial glory based on what they did before coming into mortality entirely misses the point of experience, mortality, perserverance, and enduring to the end.

I dont believe in predestination. I do however believe in foreordination but that is different. 

[Snigmorder]

Accepting Jesus into one's heart sounds so grossly sectarian that it would cause Bruce to roll in his grave.

Edited August 7, 2017 by Snigmorder

[clbent04]

On 8/6/2017 at 2:14 PM, Rob Osborn said:

I just dont buy the whole bit about our performance in the premortal life being linked with when we die in mortality.

How do you explain children who die before they reach age 8 getting a "free pass" to the Celestial Kingdom?

[clbent04]

On 8/7/2017 at 11:13 PM, Snigmorder said:

Accepting Jesus into one's heart sounds so grossly sectarian that it would cause Bruce to roll in his grave.

Good thing I'm not concerned with what Bruce is doing in his grave

Edited August 12, 2017 by clbent04

[Rob Osborn]

1 hour ago, clbent04 said:

How do you explain children who die before they reach age 8 getting a "free pass" to the Celestial Kingdom?

I dont think they get a free pass. Its that simple.

[clbent04]

5 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

I dont think they get a free pass. Its that simple.

"Free pass" isn't the best term. It's just simpler to say

[Rob Osborn]

21 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

"Free pass" isn't the best term. It's just simpler to say

I personally believe that during the millennium they will get the opportunity to come of accountable age and then be able to choose themselves to enter into the covenants. At the end of the millennium everyone will be tried one last time before anyone will go ibto the celestial kingdom.

[clbent04]

4 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

I personally believe that during the millennium they will get the opportunity to come of accountable age and then be able to choose themselves to enter into the covenants. At the end of the millennium everyone will be tried one last time before anyone will go ibto the celestial kingdom.

This makes sense to me too