Redundant Phrases in the Church

[Guest]

33 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

This isn't necessarily a redundant phrase I hear in the Church, but rather a redundancy of sentence structuring, i.e., the referencing of two ideas in a sentence as either the former or the latter.

Example:  Martha had two tasks but was unsure which to do first: read her scriptures or say her prayers.  She decided on the former.

Maybe it's just me, but I read and hear this all the time in the Church.  I read a lot of literature outside the Church too, and the usage isn't near as high as it is in the Church.  Just a weird thing to be culturalized

It is a more formal mode of speech.  And in the right circles, you'd hear it a lot more often.  It is not peculiar to LDS culture alone.

[Grunt]

For the past few weeks I've just been praying.  I don't particularly care who does or doesn't like the manner or text of my prayer.  

[clbent04]

27 minutes ago, Grunt said:

For the past few weeks I've just been praying.  I don't particularly care who does or doesn't like the manner or text of my prayer.  

You're a rockstar 

[Grunt]

3 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

You're a rockstar 

I really am.  You must have missed the other thread.  

[clbent04]

1 minute ago, Grunt said:

I really am.  You must have missed the other thread.  

[Guest MormonGator]

2 hours ago, mirkwood said:

You know I'm your hero. 

[Bad Karma]

On 8/5/2017 at 11:49 PM, clbent04 said:

"I know this Church is true"?

That one kind of wears me down. I just hear it too much in absence of substance. Of course the church is true! We're here, dog gone it! I'm not spending three hours in a meetinghouse to grow boils! 

 

[SilentOne]

@MormonGator, this one's for you.

 

[clbent04]

23 hours ago, Carborendum said:

23 hours ago, Carborendum said:

You plead for people to stop it.  Most of whom aren't on this forum (see @MormonGator's post).

They're not here, and we can't change them.  

 

Even if I get the message across to one person who is unaware they're making vain repetitions, that's a win.  It actually seems very possible to me someone has already read this post and thought, you know what, I do say "I know this Church is true" a little too loosely in my testimony.  Especially considering what a natural statement it's become. Heck, just from joining this website several days ago and combing through some of posts I've read, I've thought to myself, now that's a better way of thinking I didn't consider before

Edited August 8, 2017 by clbent04

[clbent04]

37 minutes ago, Bad Karma said:

That one kind of wears me down. I just hear it too much in absence of substance. Of course the church is true! We're here, dog gone it! I'm not spending three hours in a meetinghouse to grow boils! 

 

@Bad Karma Amen

[Grunt]

5 hours ago, Bad Karma said:

That one kind of wears me down. I just hear it too much in absence of substance. Of course the church is true! We're here, dog gone it! I'm not spending three hours in a meetinghouse to grow boils! 

 

Don't take this the wrong way, but this has been one of the issues for me, also.  This was my first Fast Day, and everyone seemed to focus on that.  From an outsider, it almost seemed like they were trying to convince themselves, not provide a testimony.

[zil]

1 hour ago, Grunt said:

Don't take this the wrong way, but this has been one of the issues for me, also.  This was my first Fast Day, and everyone seemed to focus on that.  From an outsider, it almost seemed like they were trying to convince themselves, not provide a testimony.

When I hear that phrase, I take it as I suspect most mean it, which is as an abbreviation for something like: "My life's experiences have taught me that the principles taught by the Church are true, that it is the restored church of Jesus Christ, and that I am happier when living according to those principles."

[clbent04]

"I know this Church is true"

52 minutes ago, zil said:

When I hear that phrase, I take it as I suspect most mean it, which is as an abbreviation for something like: "My life's experiences have taught me that the principles taught by the Church are true, that it is the restored church of Jesus Christ, and that I am happier when living according to those principles."

Another reason I don't think we should use the phrase "I know this Church is true" as much as we do is for newcomers to the faith. They hear this phrase so frequently that they may feel inclined to say the same thing verbatim in order to be understood by members of the Church that the Holy Spirit has testified to them to of the truthfulness of the restrored gospel. But there are SO MANY other ways to express this:

1. I testify this is the gospel of Jesus Christ

2. The Holy Spirit has revealed to me the truthfulness of this restored gospel, and I testify to you that it is true

3. Praying earnestly led me to the divine knowledge that Joseph Smith was called of God

4. Upon reading the Book of Mormon, I felt the Holy Spirit burn within me, a warm, radiating feeling that opened up my understanding and knowledge that this is His Church 

5. I know God's Church is here on the Earth today, and it is called The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

6. I gained my knowledge of the the divinity of this gospel through the power of the Priesthood. In a time of need, Priesthood blessings of comfort were administered to me, opening my eyes and heart to the Lord in ways I never knew possible

7. I know, I testify, I share with you this is the Lord's Church. He designed and controls it

If we are all more thoughtful in what we say and how we say it, we will encourage others to express themselves based on the words that come to their mind from their own hearts

Edited August 8, 2017 by clbent04

[Guest]

My 5-year-old son asked me to take him up to the podium to bear his testimony.  No, I didn't encourage him.  In fact, I wanted to screen him.  I asked what he wanted to say (just to verify that it was actually bearing a testimony).  He told me that it was really important and he didn't want to repeat it, so he wanted to wait until he got to the podium.

OK.  It's not like I could give him the third degree or NOT permit him to go if I had an inkling that he may very well have a testimony to bear.  (BTW, I had a testimony when I was only a few months older than he, and he really is a remarkably aware and intelligent boy for his age).

When it was our turn, we got to the podium and... he froze.  He completely forgot what he was going to say.  

So, I ended up being that parent that whispers into his ear some things to say.  He repeated them.  I felt really stupid.  But that's what happened.

So, please stop judging those parents.  You may not know what the dynamic is or what led up to that moment.

Edited August 8, 2017 by Guest

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

"I know this Church is true"

Another reason I don't think we should use the phrase "I know this Church is true" as much as we do is for newcomers to the faith. They hear this phrase so frequently that they may feel inclined to say the same thing verbatim in order to be understood by members of the Church that the Holy Spirit has testified to them to of the truthfulness of the restrored gospel. But there are SO MANY other ways to express this:

1. I testify this is the gospel of Jesus Christ

2. The Holy Spirit has revealed to me the truthfulness of this restored gospel, and I testify to you that it is true

3. Praying earnestly led me to the divine knowledge that Joseph Smith was called of God

4. Upon reading the Book of Mormon, I felt the Holy Spirit burn within me, a warm, radiating feeling that opened up my understanding and knowledge that this is His Church 

5. I know God's Church is here on the Earth today, and it is called The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

6. I gained my knowledge of the the divinity of this gospel through the power of the Priesthood. In a time of need, Priesthood blessings of comfort were administered to me, opening my eyes and heart to the Lord in ways I never knew possible

7. I know, I testify, I share with you this is the Lord's Church. He designed and controls it

If we are all more thoughtful in what we say and how we say it, we will encourage others to express themselves based on the words that come to their mind from their own hearts

Ok.  Now this is going too far.  You're essentially just criticizing people's linguistic skills.  Just because they can't say things in a more "flowery" manner, you're saying they should stop speaking.  Didn't you just get done saying how it bothered you that people used the "former/latter" language?  Make up your mind.

We just had a meeting that so few people got up to bear testimony that a second member of the bishopric felt compelled to bear testimony to fill up the time.  And we still got out early.  If you hold people speech up to such a high standard, you'll get a lot more meetings where very few people ever talk.

Edited August 8, 2017 by Guest

[clbent04]

1 minute ago, Carborendum said:

Ok.  Now this is going too far.  You're essentially just criticizing people's linguistic skills.  Just because they can't say things in a more "flowery" manner, you're saying they should stop speaking.  Didn't you just get done saying how it bothered you that people used the "former/latter" language?  Make up your mind.

This is not the point at all. I'm not suggesting we speak flowery. Is using your mind to speak your own thoughts in your own words flowery?

[Guest]

1 minute ago, clbent04 said:

This is not the point at all. I'm not suggesting we speak flowery. Is using your mind to speak your own thoughts in your own words flowery?

That is exactly the point.

What if "I know the Church is True" is exactly what is on their minds?  I know many people who bear testimony of this simple fact.  They just don't know how to express it any other way.  They just don't have the verbal skills to say more.  Why would you condemn that?  Do you really want these people to stop bearing testimony?

Edited August 8, 2017 by Guest

[Fether]

4 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Ok.  Now this is going too far.  You're essentially just criticizing people's linguistic skills.  Just because they can't say things in a more "flowery" manner, you're saying they should stop speaking.  Didn't you just get done saying how it bothered you that people used the "former/latter" language?  Make up your mind.

We just had a meeting that so few people got up to bear testimony that a second member of the bishopric felt compelled to bear testimony to fill up the time.  And we still got out early.  If you hold people speech up to such a high standard, you'll get a lot more meetings where very few people ever talk.

@clbent04

I agree with what you are both saying. For one, do we really KNOW? And on the other hanf, communication is the point and I don't think anyone in the audience is thinking "He knows!? He has seen God!!" 

I do, though, think ANY increase cognitive effort in the words we use will aid in our spiritual growth and power in our testimony 

There was a time that I deliberately avoided the phrase "I know" and I used the words "I believe". 

[Guest MormonGator]

2 hours ago, Grunt said:

Don't take this the wrong way, but this has been one of the issues for me, also.  This was my first Fast Day, and everyone seemed to focus on that.  From an outsider, it almost seemed like they were trying to convince themselves, not provide a testimony.

Those were my thoughts as well. 

[Guest]

Just now, Fether said:

There was a time that I deliberately avoided the phrase "I know" and I used the words "I believe". 

I also went through that phase.  But I found that doing so hampered my spiritual growth.  By saying,"I believe," I kept thinking to myself "I really don't know."  That implied also that "I'm really just lying."

At some point, I had to make a decision.  Either I knew or I was lying.

I wasn't lying.  So, I knew.  It was at that point that my testimony started growing at a much greater rate.

[clbent04]

3 hours ago, Carborendum said:

That is exactly the point.

What if "I know the Church is True" is exactly what is on their minds?  I know many people who bear testimony of this simple fact.  They just don't know how to express it any other way.  They just don't have the verbal skills to say more.  Why would you condemn that?  Do you really want these people to stop bearing testimony?

You're missing the point. I'm not talking about the timid speaker who has limited linguistic skills needing to artfully craft his form of speech

Edited August 8, 2017 by clbent04

[Grunt]

17 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

"I know this Church is true"

Another reason I don't think we should use the phrase "I know this Church is true" as much as we do is for newcomers to the faith. They hear this phrase so frequently that they may feel inclined to say the same thing verbatim in order to be understood by members of the Church that the Holy Spirit has testified to them to of the truthfulness of the restrored gospel. But there are SO MANY other ways to express this:

1. I testify this is the gospel of Jesus Christ

2. The Holy Spirit has revealed to me the truthfulness of this restored gospel, and I testify to you that it is true

3. Praying earnestly led me to the divine knowledge that Joseph Smith was called of God

4. Upon reading the Book of Mormon, I felt the Holy Spirit burn within me, a warm, radiating feeling that opened up my understanding and knowledge that this is His Church 

5. I know God's Church is here on the Earth today, and it is called The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

6. I gained my knowledge of the the divinity of this gospel through the power of the Priesthood. In a time of need, Priesthood blessings of comfort were administered to me, opening my eyes and heart to the Lord in ways I never knew possible

7. I know, I testify, I share with you this is the Lord's Church. He designed and controls it

If we are all more thoughtful in what we say and how we say it, we will encourage others to express themselves based on the words that come to their mind from their own hearts

Are you a member of the LDS church?  Do you share your testimony?

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

You're missing the point. I'm not talking about the timid speaker who has limited linguistic skills need to artfully craft his form of speech

No, you're missing the point.  I'm not talking about the timid speaker either.

A testimony may be planned, and it may be spontaneous.  A planned speech will have more detail and more flowery speech.  And, yes, it is more tantalizing to our intellect.

But the spontaneous testimony is not going to be so organized or use great speech skills.  It may be very short and simple.  If you take any average or above average speaker and tell them to get up at a moment's notice and say something spontaneous, it will sound very simple and almost stumbling, bumbling, and plain like "I know the church is true."

The important thing is to feel the testimony because of the Spirit, not our intellect.

Edited August 8, 2017 by Guest

[Guest MormonGator]

4 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

No, you're missing the point.  I'm not talking about the timid speaker either.

A testimony may be planned, and it may be spontaneous.  A planned speech will have more detail and more flowery speech.  And, yes, it is more tantalizing to our intellect.

But the spontaneous testimony is not going to be so organized or use great speech skills.  It may be very short and simple.  If you take any average or above average speaker and tell them to get up at a moment's notice and say something spontaneous, it will sound very simple and almost stumbling, bumbling, and plain like "I know the church is true."

That, and a good writer/speaker actually doesn't use flowery, long winded speech. Brevity is the soul of wit. 

[Guest]

Just now, MormonGator said:

That, and a good writer/speaker actually doesn't use flowery, long winded speech. Brevity is the soul of wit. 

e.g.

"If"