Redundant Phrases in the Church

[The Folk Prophet]

8 hours ago, Bad Karma said:

I'm not spending three hours in a meetinghouse to grow boils! 

 

Apparently, you are.

[Guest MormonGator]

3 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

e.g.

"If"

It's like the difference between a snotty freshmen in college who thinks they know everything about their major and a grad student who knows they don't know anything. If you waltz up there like an idiot thinking you are JFK meets Obama meets Churchill you are virtually assured to make a fool of yourself.

Edited August 8, 2017 by MormonGator

[Guest]

1 minute ago, MormonGator said:

JFK meets Obama meets Churchill

One of these things is not like the others.  But I digress.

[clbent04]

3 hours ago, Carborendum said:

No, you're missing the point.  I'm not talking about the timid speaker either.

A testimony may be planned, and it may be spontaneous.  A planned speech will have more detail and more flowery speech.  And, yes, it is more tantalizing to our intellect.

But the spontaneous testimony is not going to be so organized or use great speech skills.  It may be very short and simple.  If you take any average or above average speaker and tell them to get up at a moment's notice and say something spontaneous, it will sound very simple and almost stumbling, bumbling, and plain like "I know the church is true."

First of all, my examples weren't flowery speech, but I'm glad you think I speak so eloquently. Secondly, the average speaker is more than capable of speaking his mind in his own words. The less than average, timid speaker would be different. You can often tell if someone is nervous speaking in front of others, and honestly I don't care how they say it, I'm the one rooting them on to be able to walk away from their talk confidently feeing like they did a good job. Why? Because I emphathize with them because I am a very timid speaker, spent most of my life with a shaky voice when I get up to talk in front of others. But even for someone like me, this doesn't mean I can't speak my mind in my own words 

Edited August 8, 2017 by clbent04

[Guest MormonGator]

1 minute ago, Carborendum said:

One of these things is not like the others.  But I digress.

I know how much you love Obama, so I specifically mentioned him. Nothing but love kid. Nothing but love. 

[The Folk Prophet]

8 hours ago, clbent04 said:

Even if I get the message across to one person who is unaware they're making vain repetitions, that's a win.  It actually seems very possible to me someone has already read this post and thought, you know what, I do say "I know this Church is true" a little too loosely in my testimony.  Especially considering what a natural statement it's become. Heck, just from joining this website several days ago and combing through some of posts I've read, I've thought to myself, now that's a better way of thinking I didn't consider before

If I get the message across to one person who is unaware that judging other's testimonies to be vain repetition is likely unrighteous judgment, that's a win. It seems very possible to me that someone who read a post critical of "redundant phrases"  may have jumped on the bandwagon of unrighteous judgment, and reading my reply thought, "You know what, I am judging others without knowing their hearts." Especially considering how natural it's become to criticize church culture under the guise of just helping out, when what's really going on is an attack on the faithful (albeit imperfect), well meaning members who are doing their best to be disciples of Christ, despite their imperfections. Perhaps said person reading this will realize that it's not their place to steady the ark, but rather to humbly press on doing their best to be a disciple of Christ as well, despite their own imperfections (which they surely would have others be understanding of as well), and to forgive others their weaknesses, and look for the good in the so-called, "church culture", instead of always digging for the problems.

[zil]

23 minutes ago, Fether said:

@clbent04

I agree with what you are both saying. For one, do we really KNOW? And on the other hanf, communication is the point and I don't think anyone in the audience is thinking "He knows!? He has seen God!!" 

I do, though, think ANY increase cognitive effort in the words we use will aid in our spiritual growth and power in our testimony 

There was a time that I deliberately avoided the phrase "I know" and I used the words "I believe". 

And who are you to question what other people know or don't know?  Are you omniscient?  Have you developed ESP and the wisdom to understand whatever is in the mind of another human?  I tell you I know the Church is true, God lives, and Jesus Christ is his Son and our redeemer.  If necessary, you can one day ask God whether I was using the right verb there.  But you don't get to say I wasn't, because while you can know what you know; there is no way for you to know what I know - unless you take my word for it.

[Guest]

12 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

First of all, my examples weren't flowery speech, but I'm glad you think I speak so eloquently. Secondly, the average speaker is more than capable of speaking his mind in his own words. The less than average timid speaker would be different. You can often tell if someone is nervous speaking in front of others, and honestly I don't care how they say it, I'm the one rooting them on to be able to walk away from their talk confidently feeing like they did a good job. Why? Because I emphathize with them because I am a very timid speaker, spent most of my life with a shaky voice when I get up to talk in front of others. But even for someone like me, this doesn't mean I can't speak my mind in my own words 

Many consider me to be a great public speaker.  But the example I gave of my son... Well, I attempted to smooth things over by bearing my own testimony.  I had, of course, not prepared anything.  I didn't think I was going to say anything.  But there I was.  I opened my mouth and stumbling words came out because I was partially frustrated at my son for having me take him up there and he said nothing.

I figured, I've given impromptu speeches before (I usually had at least two minutes to get thoughts together).  But here... nothing.  My mind was a blank.  You wanna know what I said?  "I know the church is true."

[clbent04]

11 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

You wanna know what I said?  "I know the church is true."

Alright, well don't beat yourself up about it. We can work on it

[Grunt]

1 minute ago, clbent04 said:

Alright, well don't beat yourself up about it. We can work on it

@clbent04 are you a member of the LDS church and do you share your testimony?

[Guest]

12 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

Alright, well don't beat yourself up about it. We can work on it

And I thank you for your sympathy.

[Mike]

When I was a teen I wondered why so many things (like meetings, lessons, experiences, feelings, each boyfriend or girlfriend after the last one..., etc.) were "special". 

[NeuroTypical]

And we all know where that road ends. 

[Mike]

55 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

And we all know where that road ends. 

Speaking of endings, I also came to notice how often 'special' was used when girls wanted to break it off, hahaha. 

Edited August 8, 2017 by Mike

[Aussie Expat]

I think I understand what you're saying, and I agree up to a point. There's a difference between a prayer that is a collection of these redundant phrases, and one that goes a little deeper and seems to have more thought behind it.

As for testimony meeting, I enjoy hearing about people's spiritual experiences that confirm their testimonies.  I like to hear why people know the church is true. 

[Fether]

5 hours ago, zil said:

And who are you to question what other people know or don't know?  Are you omniscient?  Have you developed ESP and the wisdom to understand whatever is in the mind of another human?  I tell you I know the Church is true, God lives, and Jesus Christ is his Son and our redeemer.  If necessary, you can one day ask God whether I was using the right verb there.  But you don't get to say I wasn't, because while you can know what you know; there is no way for you to know what I know - unless you take my word for it.

I wasn't making a blanket statement that nobody knows God. But rather posing the question so that we can be more thoughtful on the words we use. I for one don't know, but am living my whole on faith that he is there and he does love us.

And the question is based on the most literal and complete meaning of "know". It may suggest that they have seen God, spoken face to face, or have hugged him.

I'm not much for judging every little word someone says because let's be honest. Compare the amount of ideas we convey every day with our mastery over the English language... you are going to mess up on occasion. In my experience, it is pretty easy to judge what someone is saying when they are saying it regardless of their mastery of the language.

That being said, I am 100% for us paying more attention to the words we use because I feel it can grow our own testimony in gospel topics.

I don't down anyone or think to myself "he doesn't KNOW" when they bare testimony and use those words. Those thoughts I have are there to remind myself that I really don't know, that I have yet to meet any celestial being face to face. That I am a faithful member of this church through faith and belief alone.

 

ALSO

 

"A testimony is usually defined as knowledge or assurance of a truth that a person declares by the convincing power of the Holy Ghost. The Apostle Paul taught, “No man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost” (1 Cor. 12:3). Because the things of God are known only by the power of the Spirit, they must be declared by the Spirit, and that means bearing testimony.

Because a testimony is personal, testimony bearing often begins with the pronoun I. (Parents, missionaries, and Church leaders may at times use we.) A testimony can be identified by the use of powerful verbs such as know, testify, believe, certify, declare, affirm, bear witness, bear record.Often it is a declaration of what you know, feel, experience, or believe, such as “We listened, we gazed, we admired!” (JS—H 1:71, note). Generally speaking, a testimony is short, precise, and concise." (https://www.lds.org/ensign/2005/10/bearing-testimony?lang=eng)

 

obviously we can use the word "know"... I'm not against it. As said previously, I just support any increase in attention to the words we use.

Edited August 8, 2017 by Fether

[Bad Karma]

12 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Apparently, you are.

 I knew you were going to say that. 

[clbent04]

12 hours ago, Fether said:

@clbent04

I agree with what you are both saying. For one, do we really KNOW? And on the other hanf, communication is the point and I don't think anyone in the audience is thinking "He knows!? He has seen God!!" 

I do, though, think ANY increase cognitive effort in the words we use will aid in our spiritual growth and power in our testimony 

There was a time that I deliberately avoided the phrase "I know" and I used the words "I believe". 

The phrase "I know this Church is true" doesn't even make sense in itself.  I'll hear a speaker during a fast & testimony meeting give a 5-minute talk about anything and everything unrelated to the gospel, and then close with the classic bow wrap "and I know this Church is true. Amen."  And I'm left hanging.  I'm thinking, what about the Church do you know is true?  You provided no context leading up to this statement other than your new roommate's unclean living habits.  

If you say "I know principle 'X' is true" that would make sense in itself, if you said "I know the pythagorean theorem @Carborendum is true" that would make sense in itself, if you said "I know the teachings of the restored gospel to be true" that would make sense in itself, but the statement "I know this Church is true" does not make sense in itself

Edited August 9, 2017 by clbent04

[Fether]

9 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

The phrase "I know this Church is true" doesn't even make sense in itself.  

Lol this has crossed my mind too before x) but I think when you shift the meaning from a statement to a declaration of a virtue, it makes more sense.

"the church is true"

vs

"The church is true (to God)"

kinda like "He is a true man"... well we all are true (biologically speaking) men, but that is not what is being said.

[clbent04]

1 hour ago, Fether said:

Lol this has crossed my mind too before x) but I think when you shift the meaning from a statement to a declaration of a virtue, it makes more sense.

"the church is true"

vs

"The church is true (to God)"

kinda like "He is a true man"... well we all are true (biologically speaking) men, but that is not what is being said.

I think I'm just more confused now. I can't read too deeply into something that inherently doesn't make sense

Edited August 9, 2017 by clbent04

[Fether]

9 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

I think I just more confused now. I can't read too deeply into something that inherently doesn't make sense

Another example "John is just"

what? Just what?

read it as "just" being a virtue.

"John is a just man" would make the statement less confusing. But "John is just" also works (though is less clear).

 

[clbent04]

46 minutes ago, Fether said:

Another example "John is just"

what? Just what?

read it as "just" being a virtue.

"John is a just man" would make the statement less confusing. But "John is just" also works (though is less clear).

 

Ahh okay. Thanks for the clarification. To me, it makes sense to say "John is just", because it's easily understood as to what you're saying. John is just and therefore must be fair guy.  However, when you say the Church is true, you're saying something that needs to be qualified further and doesn't make sense by itself.  Substituting these working definitions for "true" puts in into perspective

• The Church is "in accordance with fact"
• The Church is "accurate"
• The Church is "exact"

These statements in themselves are open ended.  The question becomes, the Church is accurate to what?  The Church is exact to what?  The Church is in accordance with what fact?

We shouldn't be left with any questions with statements like these.  It is vague, open ended, and confusing.

Edited August 9, 2017 by clbent04

[Guest]

1 hour ago, clbent04 said:

The phrase "I know this Church is true" doesn't even make sense in itself.  I'll hear a speaker during a fast & testimony meeting give a 5-minute talk about anything and everything unrelated to the gospel, and then close with the classic bow wrap "and I know this Church is true. Amen."  And I'm left hanging.  I'm thinking, what about the Church do you know is true?  You provided no context leading up to this statement other than your new roommate's unclean living habits.  

If you say "I know principle 'X' is true" that would make sense in itself, if you said "I know the pythagorean theorem @Carborendum is true" that would make sense in itself, if you said "I know the teachings of the restored gospel to be true" that would make sense in itself, but the statement "I know this Church is true" does not make sense in itself

The phrase "don't eat yourself to death" doesn't make any sense either.  But we know what it means.

[Vort]

1 hour ago, clbent04 said:

the statement "I know this Church is true" does not make sense in itself

Why not?

"I know this rifle shoots true."

Do you have some doubt about what the above statement might mean?

[clbent04]

41 minutes ago, Vort said:

Why not?

"I know this rifle shoots true."

Do you have some doubt about what the above statement might mean?

@Vort Really? The gun shoots accurately. Great. Makes sense. Good job. Nothing is left open ended. Not the same when you say the Church is true