Should we 'out' fellow church goers?


Sunday21
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Should Church members "out" fellow members?  

12 members have voted

  1. 1. If a fellow member does something despicable, eg sexual harassment, groping, lying, cheating on business transaction, should we tell someone?

    • Depends on severity
      8
    • Depends on how often
      0
    • Depends on the victims eg children
      2
    • Depends on the culture of the country, region
      0
    • Only once you have confronted the person and they seem likely to reoffend
      2
  2. 2. If you think, we should tell, who should we tell?

    • bishop
      11
    • Facebook community
      0
    • People in the ward
      0
    • Stake president
      1
  3. 3. If we stay silent, should we

    • pray for transgressor
      8
    • pray to forget about the incident
      2
    • avoid doing business/dating those that we attend church with
      2


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Dear Hubbers,

I was thinking of community values for lds and other church goers. Should we out those who misbehave? I was sexually harassed on a couple of occasions at church. Guy rubbed up against me as I tried to wrap myself around a neighbour to get away. This guy has a history of sexual harassment going back many decades according to his wife. I told the bishop. Shortly after he got a position in the Elder's Quorum and he now gives the sacrament prayer. I figure that I did my bit and I have no more obligations. Maybe, Mr. Rubber has turned over a new leaf.

I was also thinking of the young missionary who behaved very badly with a young investigator as described yesterday. In some communities this would be something that should be reported.

I have noticed that lds people don't tend to report. I had guys behave very badly on dates and when I told the Single Adult co-coordinator, I was clearly the only person who said anything.

So is this a lds/church community value? We don't squeal? We let people repent? I am thinking that this is the case.

In the area where I first joined the church, sexual harassment of young women by church leaders was a problem. How do I know? I went for counselling to LDS family services and a counselor gave me the gruesome details.

Anyway, what are your thoughts?

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I couldn't answer the first question because I believe I'd consider most of them.  But my biggest question is "how certain am I?"

The second question: Bishop.  Remember that sins of a sexual nature are today's witch trials.  Once you make an accusation, you can't recant it.  You can't fix it if for some reason, you were mistaken.  It could end careers.  It can destroy lives.  We do what we NEED to.  We certainly don't take such accusations lightly.  By telling the bishop, you're telling someone who is the designated person to investigate and make judgments and so forth.  And he is bound to confidentiality.  If something needs doing, he is supposed to be the one to make such a judgment.

If it happened to you (as is your case) and you've considered carefully that it wasn't simply an accident... then you don't need to worry about this filter.

If you stay silent?  That is a big DEPENDS ON...

That said...

If I knew that someone did something like that to someone in my family... honestly, I think I'd lose it and go ballistic on the guy.  Depending on the severity of the behavior in question, you may find me in a jail cell.

Edited by Guest
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I'll tell you the story of why it is so important to be SURE.

My uncle-in-law (I believe that is the relation) had a great life and a great family.  He really was a wonderful man.  His wife was wonderful.  His kids were really sweet and always happy.

One day he slept in.  He had garments only, no pajamas.  The mom had gotten up to do some things and came back a little later to this scene.  

His 12 or 13 year old daughter came to his room to snuggle with him just as she had done many times in the past.  Because the daughter was of this age, she was beginning to develop.  And, as in many cases, it was so gradual that the family didn't really notice.  But when the mom got back to her room, she saw something that she thought was highly inappropriate even though they were both asleep.  (I don't have the details on what exactly she saw).

What many didn't know was that the mom went through some "issues" as a child.  The scene before her triggered memories and feelings... She went ballistic on this man who was doing nothing more than sleeping in.

Long story short, his life is now in ruins.  He can't get anything but the lowest paying jobs.  He has no parental rights.  He can't get a loan for a home.  He can't even live in nice apartments because of background checks.  I don't even know what his status is with the Church.  But the bottom line is that because he slept in one day, his life is now in ruins.

Is such activity (if it actually happened) evil?  Absolutely.  But we really need to be sure that what we think happened, actually happened.

Edited by Guest
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I'd confront them first, try to have a reasonable discussion with them about boundaries or whatever. If it didn't change anything or didn't look like it would, I would tell the Bishop and nobody else. He's the one who is the steward of everyone in the ward and would be the most able to work with them with inspiration from the Lord. However, if someone else complained to me or confided in me about something similar happening to them, I would tell them about my own experiences and tell them to tell the bishop as well(this assuming all of this happened after I'd already done everything above; if someone told me about something nasty happening to them and THEN it happened to me from the same offender, I'd still start at step 1. and confront the person about their behavior towards me personally before then going to the bishop). I think there is value in talking things through but as in your case, Sunday, where he was seemingly put into a position of authority, I'd less assume it was, "Oh, hey, he's being rewarded" and more that the bishop probably thought, "This guy doesn't seem to have enough to do and his idle hands are causing trouble." I don't know the full extent or details but that would be my impression of the bishop's choice in the matter. Sometimes when you give someone who is acting out or acting inappropriately a challenge or responsibility, they step up; it clears the perspective. Sometimes.

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@Carborendum @mustardseed

Yes. I really see what you mean. You are both right.

I can see why people keep things to themselves. I decided not to discuss bad behavior that I see or as Carb pointed out 'think I see'. What you think is being righteous is often self-righteous.

This guy doesn't seem to have enough to do and his idle hands are causing trouble." - Good point!

I wish sometimes that the church had an ombudsman that you could talk to or email. But honestly, we are just getting by here. Just doing the basics is tough!

Anyway, the number of lds men who have confidently told me that the Law of Chasity does not apply to them (or me with them!), I can barely count! Sometimes I wish there was someone that I could tell. I have never told anyone. Maybe I should have told their bishops? Who knows. I am a nonteller!

Thanks for your comments!

Edited by Sunday21
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2 minutes ago, Sunday21 said:

Anyway, the number of lds men who have confidently told me that the Law of Chasity does not apply to them (or me with them!), I can barely count! Sometimes I wish there was someone that I could tell. I have never told anyone.

You must be an extremely attractive woman.  

Don't let their behavior change who you are.  You're a wonderful and faithful woman.  Stay that way.

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These kinds of things I deal with the same way I learned as taught by the Catholic Church.

The ultimate objective is to bring ourselves as well as others closer to Christ.  So, it has to strike a balance that maximizes all of us moving closer to Christ.  So, in cases of crime and reporting and punishment, the question is always going to be - what is my purpose?  Is my purpose to avenge, to hurt as much as I got hurt, to get my pound of flesh, etc. etc?  Or is my purpose to put a stop to the action that the person will be protected from committing further atrocities and hopefully get him on the path to repentance, or to put a stop to the action that people around the perpetrator, including myself, can be protected from evil?

So every reaction I make to these kinds of events gets to be bounced against the ideal of loving my neighbors as I love myself.

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@Sunday21 I'm sorry this has been your experience. There is no code of silence within the church that I'm aware of. If someone breeches moral codes and you fell that you can't stay silent, then I would suggest talking to somebody about it, but who to talk to will depend on severity, safety, and privacy concerns. If someone is doing illegal behaviour, I think it would be appropriate to notify the legal authorities as to what is going on. But as @Carborendum mentioned you do want to be careful not to ruin lives - In my line of work I oversee a play program for children in the summer and we are trained to look for signs of neglect, abuse (physical or sexual) and to keep records of anything suspicious. If we at any time feel that a child is going to be hurt by returning to their living situation, we are tasked with notifying the authorities. I would hate for someone to be wrongfully investigated on such charges, but the counter point is that I'd also hate to continue sending a child back into harm's way and not intervening.

Never an easy call.

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Just now, SpiritDragon said:

@Sunday21 I'm sorry this has been your experience. There is no code of silence within the church that I'm aware of. If someone breeches moral codes and you fell that you can't stay silent, then I would suggest talking to somebody about it, but who to talk to will depend on severity, safety, and privacy concerns. If someone is doing illegal behaviour, I think it would be appropriate to notify the legal authorities as to what is going on. But as @Carborendum mentioned you do want to be careful not to ruin lives - In my line of work I oversee a play program for children in the summer and we are trained to look for signs of neglect, abuse (physical or sexual) and to keep records of anything suspicious. If we at any time feel that a child is going to be hurt by returning to their living situation, we are tasked with notifying the authorities. I would hate for someone to be wrongfully investigated on such charges, but the counter point is that I'd also hate to continue sending a child back into harm's way and not intervening.

Never an easy call.

Great answer bud. Agree totally. 

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2 hours ago, Sunday21 said:

I have noticed that lds people don't tend to report.

I think a few years ago, we went about six or seven general conferences in a row where at least one speaker talked about our zero tolerance policy regarding abuse.

I have personally forwarded court information to a bishop and stake president.  I have also reported members for using a ward list as a mailing list for their dumb business ventures.  That's the sum total of horrible things I've encountered, so I'm not really keeping quiet about anything else. (I mean, I see members sinning differently than me on occasion, but there's no reason to tell on someone here.  I have a general duty to protect people from harm, but it's none of my dang business if High Priest so-and-so drinks coffee.)

In general, if someone commits a crime, you should alert the authorities.  Doesn't matter if someone is LDS or not.  If they're LDS, you should also alert the bishop/branch president, and maybe the stake president too if they've done something particularly horrible.

After you've done your part, you should let go.  This is really hard for a lot of people.  It's been personally hard for me.  But it's pretty much the best answer.  (Keep in mind, if you think someone is in danger, or you see repeat offending, then your part is to keep yelling until someone hears.  But once you've yelled, and you see no additional behavior, that's when you let go.)

 

Edited by NeuroTypical
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8 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

I have personally forwarded court information to a bishop and stake president.  I have also reported members for using a ward list as a mailing list for their dumb business ventures.  That's the sum total of horrible things I've encountered, so I'm not really keeping quiet about anything else.

My father-in-law spent a night in jail after his 15-year-old granddaughter called the cops on him for physically manhandling her to prevent her from physical violence against him and his wife.  The Stake President immediately released him from the Bishopric and told him he can't enter the ward building and any ward building within the Stake.  We don't know if the Stake President also adviced the ward membership not to visit but missionaries didn't come for dinners anymore, home teachers didn't visit, nobody in the ward visited.  This went on until the judge dismissed the case 3 months later.  My father-in-law is a humble man so this didn't shake his faith even as he was basically hung out to dry on his own without any spiritual assistance from anybody.  I don't know if this is Church policy but I find that the way the Catholic Church deals with these things is a better process regardless of the mockery the church receives from rank-and-file Americans.

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@NeuroTypical 

I think a few years ago, we went about six or seven general conferences in a row where at least one speaker talked about our zero tolerance policy regarding abuse.

Wow. I totally missed this! I don't know of any actual abuse these days. When I was a teen, I did. So I guess that one reports to the bishop. 

I was just wondering what the lds take was on this. Thanks.

Edited by Sunday21
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4 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

My father-in-law spent a night in jail after his 15-year-old granddaughter called the cops on him for physically manhandling her to prevent her from physical violence against him and his wife.  The Stake President immediately released him from the Bishopric and told him he can't enter the ward building and any ward building within the Stake.  We don't know if the Stake President also adviced the ward membership not to visit but missionaries didn't come for dinners anymore, home teachers didn't visit, nobody in the ward visited.  This went on until the judge dismissed the case 3 months later.  My father-in-law is a humble man so this didn't shake his faith even as he was basically hung out to dry on his own without any spiritual assistance from anybody.  I don't know if this is Church policy but I find that the way the Catholic Church deals with these things is a better process regardless of the mockery the church receives from rank-and-file Americans.

Thank you for telling me this. I feel better knowing that there is a process. 

How does the Catholic church handle things? I understand if it is too complicated or lengthy to explain!

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46 minutes ago, Sunday21 said:

Thank you for telling me this. I feel better knowing that there is a process. 

How does the Catholic church handle things? I understand if it is too complicated or lengthy to explain!

You've probably heard all the hoopla about pedophile priests in the Catholic Church, right?

The Catholic Church's first priority is always the spiritual safety of every Catholic.  Therefore, in a case where there's a crime committed by one Catholic against another Catholic, the spiritual safety of BOTH perpetrator and victim is put into consideration.  Like the LDS, the Catholic Church recognizes the supremacy of the law of the land.  But there are cases where the law of the land is in conflict with the objective of spiritual safety.  In these cases, the Church tries to work with the legal authorities in achieving their goals.

So, let's use the pedophilia cases that has been the mockery stick of the secular west.  Every priest in the Catholic Church is a citizen of Vatican City.  Vatican City follows Canon Law (Catholc Church law).  This law provides for the spiritual safety of criminals and victims.  In the Catholic faith, repentance is only possible in mortality.  After death, there's only mercy.  Therefore, it is of utmost importance that each Catholic is given every possible opportunity for repentance in this life (hence the stance against capital punishment).  Now, a Catholic priest who has made higher covenants than an ordinary Catholic is expected to have more knowledge of truth, therefore, going against the truth puts his soul in utmost danger of damnation out of reach of mercy.  The Catholic Church, therefore, puts even greater effort to save these souls.  In Canon Law, crimes against society committed by Priests is handled by first moving the priest to a duty that doesn't involve interaction with the public.  An investigation is then conducted by priests whose duty within the Church specializes in these types of investigations.  When pedophilia is proven, the Priest is then sent to a monastery to isolate him from the general public and the monks are then left in charge to help him on this very difficult spiritual journey unto repentance.  Meanwhile, the victims are also ministered to by the Parish priests to promote spiritual healing.  This could last the lifetime of the victim.  When spiritual healing is observed by the monks, the priest may then be given a duty of lesser isolation to hopefully work himself back to full priesthood activity.

On the other hand, the American justice system is known for a high death rate of pedophiles in jail or prison.  Also, spiritual nourishment is very difficult to accomplish in jail.  So, the Catholic Church tried to make a move to extradite these priests to the Vatican so they can follow Canon Law for their crimes.  This caused a furor with Americans (and Europe following) and American justice demanded that these priests will have to face American justice and go to secular jail.  All of these priests have been lost.  In Catholic belief, these priests are damned and so they continue to try to work with the legal systems to save these souls.  In the Philippines, for example, priests sentenced to jail are handed over to the monastery for isolation for their sentence.  The priests cannot come out of the monastery until the terms of their sentence are fulfilled.  Philippine authorities run inspections and do evaluations as also happens in secular jail.  It's the best of both worlds, I think.

Edited by anatess2
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5 minutes ago, Sunday21 said:

@anatess2 Thank you so much. I now have a much greater understanding of the Catholic Churches actions. I think if more people knew this, they would be much more sympathetic to the church's response. Thanks for explaining!

I doubt it.  Anti-Christian sentiment is very high in the US.  Anti-Catholic sentiment is even higher.  It's sad but it is what it is.

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84 And if a man or woman shall rob, he or she shall be delivered up unto the law of the land.

 

85 And if he or she shall steal, he or she shall be delivered up unto the law of the land.


86 And if he or she shall lie, he or she shall be delivered up unto the law of the land.


87 And if he or she do any manner of iniquity, he or she shall be delivered up unto the law, even that of God.


88 And if thy brother or sister offend thee, thou shalt take him or her between him or her and thee alone; and if he or she confess thou shalt be reconciled.


89 And if he or she confess not thou shalt deliver him or her up unto the church, not to the members, but to the elders. And it shall be done in a meeting, and that not before the world.


90 And if thy brother or sister offend many, he or she shall be chastened before many.


91 And if any one offend openly, he or she shall be rebuked openly, that he or she may be ashamed. And if he or she confess not, he or she shall be delivered up unto the law of God.


92 If any shall offend in secret, he or she shall be rebuked in secret, that he or she may have opportunity to confess in secret to him or her whom he or she has offended, and to God, that the church may not speak reproachfully of him or her.


93 And thus shall ye conduct in all things.

-D&C 42:84-93

 

As far as I'm concerned anyone making a mockery of the covenant needs to be exposed to the proper authorities, follow the inquiry up the chain of Priesthood offices as seems fit.

Mockery includes abuse, sexual harassment, using the Church mission to get sex, bad behavior on dates, etc. 

One of the things I take solace in, is that Jesus resents child abuse (or any abuse.) If someone somehow gets away with abuse, they still have Divine Justice to contend with.

Edited by Snigmorder
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4 hours ago, Sunday21 said:

Anyway, the number of lds men who have confidently told me that the Law of Chasity does not apply to them (or me with them!), I can barely count! Sometimes I wish there was someone that I could tell. I have never told anyone. Maybe I should have told their bishops? Who knows. I am a nonteller!

They're scumbags, expose them. Don't sustain them in their callings, raise your hand against them. Do not let them get away with it.

I resent those men just reading about it. Honestly if I was in your ward I don't know if I could help but confront them myself (might be bad if I did that though.)

Edited by Snigmorder
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Guest MormonGator

I understand that we all want to out people who wronged us. If we see the bishop drinking coffee or the elders quorum president smoking a cigarette it can cause all of us some frustration. It can get much, much worse when we see abuse going on. 

Let's just be careful though. Sometimes vigilante justice can backfire. Call it my "Mockingbird" sense of law and order. 

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I gave my best answers, but I think really does depend on the who/what/wheres. Some situations I would just keep myself and my family at a distant, perhaps advise others on a personal case-by-case, other situations I'd be alerting local government and/or church authorities.

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This is a tough question. I would say it would greatly depend on the severity of the sin as a lie is in a whole other ballpark from violent or sexually deviant behavior. I would say a minor transgression should be resolved between the aggrieved parties while serious ones should be reported to priesthood authorities,  and the most serious (sexual assault, battery)  should be reported to civil authorities as well. Prayer and the Spirit of Discernment should be used in cases where you are not sure and I think talking to your bishop privately first is always a safe bet.

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