Is It Okay to Admitting to a Substandard Testimony from Behind the Pulpit?


clbent04
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Pretty much every speaker I've heard in church states only what they know to be true about the church.  I don't think I've ever heard anyone admit to not knowing something.  For me, I think it would be beneficial to hear if other members had shortcomings when it comes to their testimony of the church.  I would like to know I could relate to more people out there like me who have things to work on.

Do you think the following examples would be appropriate to say from behind the pulpit?

  • I don't know if this church is true.  I grew up in the church, but I'm still unsure.  I'm working on finding an answer and have been reading the scriptures and praying more frequently... 
  • I believe this church is true, but I don't know if the Book of Mormon is. I've prayed over and over again specifically asking if the Book of Mormon is true, but I have yet to receive an answer. I believe in the church nonetheless based on the overall feelings I receive when I go to church. I'm not giving up on praying about the Book of Mormon...

Furthermore, do you think it would be okay to discuss a sin your currently struggling with from behind the pulpit?

  • I have been dealing with an addition to pornography for the past 20 years, and am currently seeking the Lord's help in overcoming this problem... (assuming someone would be gutsy enough to ever say this one!)
  • I tend to talk a lot and gossip with my friends, and realized the other day how negative gossiping can make others feel. I felt bad because my friend overheard me talking about her to the soccer team. I told her I'm sorry, and I'm trying to be more careful with what I say.  I prayed to God the other night to ask forgiveness from Him too.

 

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9 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

Pretty much every speaker I've heard in church states only what they know to be true about the church.  I don't think I've ever heard anyone admit to not knowing something.  For me, I think it would be beneficial to hear if other members had shortcomings when it comes to their testimony of the church.  I would like to know I could relate to more people out there like me who have things to work on.

Well, if there's someone who doesn't have something to work on, they get translated. No one is perfect yet; we all have things to work on. Anger, gossip, addictions, sloth...If it helps, assume that whoever is speaking has a Christlike attribute they are working to improve.

A testimony in a secular sense is to bear witness to the truth. Ask a lawyer (or someone who played one on tv). Fast and testimony meetings are meant to be uplifting, edifying, and encouraging. Moreso than regular sacrament meetings. This is why it seems you've only heard people share what they know to be true. Most of the admissions of doubt appear in more personal settings, such as Sunday School classes, where open and relevant discussion can occur, which helps the doubter nourish their seeds of faith.

 

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A testimony is a witness. What you're talking about is "bearing" a non-testimony. The purpose of bearing testimony is to state what you know and why, not what you don't know. So by definition, confessing your lack of knowledge is not a testimony. Might be appropriate in some cases; not in fast and testimony meeting. Saying that you believe a gospel principle to be true is always appropriate.

In general, you don't discuss your sins with others unless the others are your Priesthood leader or other person offering counsel, or (rarely) if the sin is an apt illustration of some point you need to make. So the basic rule is: Don't talk about your sins. I'd say this is triply true if you are speaking over a pulpit. The congregation is there to hear testimony of the word of God, not public confession of sin.

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16 minutes ago, Vort said:

A testimony is a witness. What you're talking about is "bearing" a non-testimony. The purpose of bearing testimony is to state what you know and why, not what you don't know. So by definition, confessing your lack of knowledge is not a testimony. Might be appropriate in some cases; not in fast and testimony meeting. Saying that you believe a gospel principle to be true is always appropriate.

Okay, yeah, I agree with you that fast & testimony meeting isn't the appropriate setting to admit what you don't know about the church.  But what about if you were assigned a talk?  Say the subject of the talk was on personal revelation.  Would it be okay to say which things you have and haven't received revelation on and how your currently seeking additional answers from the Lord? 

16 minutes ago, Vort said:

In general, you don't discuss your sins with others unless the others are your Priesthood leader or other person offering counsel, or (rarely) if the sin is an apt illustration of some point you need to make. So the basic rule is: Don't talk about your sins. I'd say this is triply true if you are speaking over a pulpit. The congregation is there to hear testimony of the word of God, not public confession of sin.

What would you say if you were assigned a talk on tithing, and you happened to not have paid your tithing the last 3 years?  Would it be okay to say that you haven't been a full tithe payer for quite some time, but how you understand it is a commandment from God, and upon being assigned that talk you found new inspiration to start paying tithing once more?

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Awhile back in an Elder Quorum meeting we were discussing Family History and the lead ask me to share my testimony of Family History work.  My answer was that I did not have one of Family History, I had one about Christ, the Book of Mormon, Joseph Smith and the Church, but for all the things I was working on Family History had not made it to the top to be worked on.  I was willing to believe that it was true, but until I put the work in how could I know?

It was not from the Pulpit and it was not a derailment of the lesson, but instead it worked with the lesson.  There were other like me, and there were other with strong testimonies of Family History and the discussion that followed was quite interesting.

So such non-testimonies can be shared and can be helpful, but context matters

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4 minutes ago, Sunday21 said:

@clbent04. If you were to come to my ward on fast Sunday and talk about how you would like to have a testimony and speak briefy eg 2 minutes, this would be fine. We are Canadian so different culture.

hehe  what "should" be said from during testimony meeting and what people "actually" say can be worlds apart... even in Utah.

 

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Last Fast and Testimony meeting, my son's friend who is an investigator to the Church stood up on the podium to bear her testimony.  Yes, she has not completed her journey yet towards baptism.  But she did not talk about the things she doesn't have a testimony on.  She talked about the things she DID have a testimony on.  It uplifted a lot of people - including high priests who grew up in the church.

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13 hours ago, Grunt said:

I would think the church is a place to bolster the faith of others through yourself.  Not cast doubt

Admitting you don't have a perfect testimony or that you're not perfect, but are actively trying to become better = EQUALS = casting doubt unto others?  

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9 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

Not sure why you think that way. Care to elaborate?

Sure.  First, it's a testimonial, not an anti-testimonial.  People go to church to pray, commune, and support each other and the church.  Not to have someone stand up and say "hey, I'm not really buying what you're selling".  That's the OPPOSITE of why people go to church, unless the Mormon religion is different than other religions.

I also can't imagine someone would be called to give a talk titled "I don't know if this church or the Book of Mormon is true".  

Granted, my experience with LDS is limited, so maybe that's normal.  I would CERTAINLY think that if someone else in the audience was having doubts, you talking about yours wouldn't help them.  Someone giving their testimony might, though.

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15 minutes ago, Grunt said:

Sure.  First, it's a testimonial, not an anti-testimonial.  People go to church to pray, commune, and support each other and the church.  Not to have someone stand up and say "hey, I'm not really buying what you're selling".  That's the OPPOSITE of why people go to church, unless the Mormon religion is different than other religions.

None of my examples were in that tone of "I'm not buying what you're selling"

15 minutes ago, Grunt said:

I also can't imagine someone would be called to give a talk titled "I don't know if this church or the Book of Mormon is true".  

No one is assigned talks with titles like these.  My idea was more along the lines of, if you're assigned a talk on the Book of Mormon, but don't have a testimony of it, you should still make the bulk of your talk positive and uplifting. Share some of its passages, share a story about how it changed someone's life, even share how it makes you feel positive reading it. Then, if you feel so inclined, say to that congregation you know what, I have yet to receive an answer from God for myself as to whether or not this Book is true, but I am actively working on finding an answer just like I know so many of you have

15 minutes ago, Grunt said:

Granted, my experience with LDS is limited, so maybe that's normal.  I would CERTAINLY think that if someone else in the audience was having doubts, you talking about yours wouldn't help them.  Someone giving their testimony might, though.

No, it's definitely not normal as I stated in the OP. No one hardly ever talks about what piece of their testimony they may be deficient in. Depending on the tone in which you address your own deficiencies, I think it could be a very positive message knowing that we are all struggling in this together, trying to be the best we can even if we don't have that amazing testimony quite yet

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1 minute ago, clbent04 said:

None of my examples were in that tone of "I'm not buying what you're selling"

No one is assigned talks with titles like these.  My idea was more along the lines of, if you're assigned a talk on the Book of Mormon, but don't have a testimony, make the bulk of your talk positive and uplifting about the Book of Mormon. Share some of the passages, share a story about how it changed someone's life, even share how it makes you feel positive reading it. Then, if you feel so inclined, share a little bit about yourself too. Say to that congregation you know what, I have yet to receive an answer from God for myself as to whether or not this Book is true, but I am actively working on finding an answer just like I know so many of you have

No, it's definitely not normal as I stated in the OP. No one hardly ever talks about what piece of their testimony they may be deficient in. Depending on the tone in which you addressed your own deficiencies, I think it could be a very positive message knowing that we are all struggling in this together, trying to be the best we can even if we don't have that amazing testimony quite yet

Like I said, I think Church is a place you go to bolster faith, not cast doubt.  I wouldn't be interested in hearing your talk.  I'd find it odd and out of place.  If I heard that talk at my first visit, I probably wouldn't go back.

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3 minutes ago, Grunt said:

Like I said, I think Church is a place you go to bolster faith, not cast doubt.  I wouldn't be interested in hearing your talk.  I'd find it odd and out of place.  If I heard that talk at my first visit, I probably wouldn't go back.

And that's the key right there everyone. @Grunt makes a great point, as he always does.  We need to be careful because investigators might see us in church, or read stuff here.  

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4 minutes ago, Grunt said:

Like I said, I think Church is a place you go to bolster faith, not cast doubt.  I wouldn't be interested in hearing your talk.  I'd find it odd and out of place.  If I heard that talk at my first visit, I probably wouldn't go back.

I think your premise is faulty.  Admitting you don't have a perfect testimony or that you're not perfect, but are actively trying to become better = DOES NOT EQUAL = casting doubt unto others

 

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4 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

I think your premise is faulty.  Admitting you don't have a perfect testimony or that you're not perfect, but are actively trying to become better = DOES NOT EQUAL = casting doubt unto others

 

Saying my premise is faulty isn't the same thing as showing fault with my premise.  I completely disagree and I stated why.

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12 minutes ago, Grunt said:

Saying my premise is faulty isn't the same thing as showing fault with my premise.  I completely disagree and I stated why.

Ok, no problem having a differing opinion. I think I already explained myself sufficiently so we can leave it at that

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1 hour ago, clbent04 said:

Then, if you feel so inclined, say to that congregation you know what, I have yet to receive an answer from God for myself as to whether or not this Book is true, but I am actively working on finding an answer just like I know so many of you have

Would it not be more beneficial to state that you are trying to actively grow in your testimony of the Book of Mormon each day as you continually search for knowledge and light? I don't think it's necessary to start sharing your intimate, personal details relating to what revelation you have or have not received. But sharing that as a member of the church you're continuing to work on your testimony, specifically in the area of the Book of Mormon, is uplifting for all of those at different parts on the path of their testimony. It applies to those who may be in a similar situation to you, and to those who have a firm testimony of the Book of Mormon but need the reminder that you have to continually strengthen your testimony. 

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5 hours ago, MormonGator said:

And that's the key right there everyone. @Grunt makes a great point, as he always does.  We need to be careful because investigators might see us in church, or read stuff here.  

@Grunt The post above along with some of your own in this thread got me thinking about something I didn't really consider before. Maybe some of my posts not only come across as negative to you, but they also don't help bolster your own testimony of the church, or even worse, maybe a thought or idea I've expressed has negatively affected you to some degree even if very minimally.

If this is the case, I'd like to say sorry and I hope you just ignore whatever I've posted that may bother you.  I didn't really think about how people investigating the church were also posting stuff on this website. When I first joined the website last week, I thought it was more of just seasoned members in the church sharing their knowledge on gospel topics. I was really glad to find this website to have the chance to ask a lot of questions I never had a chance to ask before.

So anyway, you seem like you got a good head on your shoulders and are likely to continue advancing your own testimony very quickly considering how far you've already come. It's easy to tell just based on some of your posts that you have a quick understanding to the gospel. Don't let someone like me who has a lot of issues to work through hold you back from having anything less than the greatest conversion experience to the church.  I do believe in this church, I know it's true based on experiencing the power of the Priesthood in my life, the power of the Priesthood is so real, surround yourself with the men of the church who are righteous Priesthood holders and you will be blessed immensely. I can already see you have a lot of great members who genuinely care about you just on this forum, and I'd like to slow down with some of my own questioning to say I'm rooting for you too

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4 hours ago, BeccaKirstyn said:

Would it not be more beneficial to state that you are trying to actively grow in your testimony of the Book of Mormon each day as you continually search for knowledge and light? I don't think it's necessary to start sharing your intimate, personal details relating to what revelation you have or have not received. But sharing that as a member of the church you're continuing to work on your testimony, specifically in the area of the Book of Mormon, is uplifting for all of those at different parts on the path of their testimony. It applies to those who may be in a similar situation to you, and to those who have a firm testimony of the Book of Mormon but need the reminder that you have to continually strengthen your testimony. 

Nicely said. This is kind of what I was trying to express earlier only worded differently

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6 hours ago, clbent04 said:

 only worded differently

And that's the lesson: a testimony should be designed to increase faith.  On trudgemill right now, so I can't go find it but one apostle  (Packer?) said a testimony is found in the bearing of it. Meaning that if you get up and testify that a principle is true, even though you aren't sure, the Spirit will testify to you that your own words are true, and thus you gain the testimony.

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35 minutes ago, zil said:

And that's the lesson: a testimony should be designed to increase faith.  On trudgemill right now, so I can't go find it but one apostle  (Packer?) said a testimony is found in the bearing of it. Meaning that if you get up and testify that a principle is true, even though you aren't sure, the Spirit will testify to you that your own words are true, and thus you gain the testimony.

If you google it, it is oft-quoted.  Appears to come originally from an article somewhere, or a pamphlet? (the way it's cited, footnote 18, it's not a book) (“That All May Be Edified” (1982), 340.).  Here's one quote from a talk by Elder Bednar:

Quote

President Boyd K. Packer, Acting President of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, has given similar counsel in our day:

“Oh, if I could teach you this one principle. A testimony is to be found in the bearing of it! Somewhere in your quest for spiritual knowledge, there is that ‘leap of faith,’ as the philosophers call it. It is the moment when you have gone to the edge of the light and stepped into the darkness to discover that the way is lighted ahead for just a footstep or two. ‘The spirit of man,’ as the scripture says, indeed ‘is the candle of the Lord’ (Proverbs 20:27).

“It is one thing to receive a witness from what you have read or what another has said; and that is a necessary beginning. It is quite another to have the Spirit confirm to you in your bosom that what you have testified is true. Can you not see that it will be supplied as you share it? As you give that which you have, there is a replacement, with increase!”

 

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6 hours ago, zil said:

And that's the lesson: a testimony should be designed to increase faith

You're right. Testimony meetings are intended for the edification of its members (perfect the saints) and to share the truthfulness of the gospel with anyone present. 

I also believe testimony meetings are designed to bond and unify the members of a congregation together. They do bond us in the spiritual knowledge we share. They unify us in helping us embrace each other as a ward family.

There's not a set guideline to what you specifically can say or can't say in a testimony. As long as a testimony is shared in the right spirit, you're free to express yourself in your own way

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