LDS Church denounces racism


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14 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

I just looked at her twitter page, and now I need to take a shower.

The sad thing is--I think as a society we *do* need a renaissance of the best of traditionalist/Christian Enlightenment/Founding-Father-type values.  But this girl, and so many like her, are poisoning the well by talking about "culture" when they obviously really just mean "race".

Ick.

I looked at her twitter page. I really dislike how she is speaking about the church and its statement. I agree with the sentiment of the church statement. Of course white supremacy is wrong! But I think there is some middle ground area which we could discuss here. "Wife With A Purpose" (the twitter handle for the LDS blogger) is on dangerous ground. Yet, she denies saying anything about whites being better (white supremacy).. in fact one of her tweets says she "never claim[ed] supremacy of any kind". If you ignore her re-tweets (stuff she didn't write) and ignore her tweets rebuking the Church's recent newsroom blog post, and look at only what she herself has penned about white culture and white supremacy (and do so in a spirit of trying to understand where she is coming from), I don't think you'll find anything supporting white supremacy.... at least, I didn't find anything supporting white supremacy, at least not directly. What I did find was promotion of "white culture". She seems to be protesting the fact that to be politically correct, we can't celebrate white culture, we can only celebrate non-white culture. If you understand her as supporting white culture but NOT supporting white supremacism, then, as I understand it, her only issue with the church's recent newsroom blog post is where it condemns "white culture".

Here is the part of the church's newsroom blog post that I believe she has issues with:

Quote

Church members who promote or pursue a “white culture” or white supremacy agenda are not in harmony with the teachings of the Church. 

I'm guessing that her definition of "white culture" might differ from the definition of "white culture" as used in the church's recent newsroom blog post? (Based her specifically denouncing white supremacy, this is my best guess.) What do you think? What is your definition of "white culture"? Are there any definitions of "white culture" which you would could accept as something to promote/celebrate? Is there room for any celebration of white culture, while simultaneously avoiding white supremacy? @Just_A_Guy, why do you assume she means "race" when she talks about "culture"? For that matter, assuming one supports celebrating the black race (ex: "Black History Month"), is it still wrong in all cases to celebrate the white race? @Just_A_Guy, is it always wrong to talk about white culture (and thereby "poison the well")? Is there a way to talk about "white culture" without really meaning "white race"? I ask these questions of all, not really trying to pick on @Just_A_Guy specifically. Hm, come to think of it, "white" *is* a race, so when one says "white culture", it's really hard to not take this as meaning the "white race". 

 

NOTES:

I'm asking for discussion of the more "middle ground" area. Of course white supremacy is evil.

In this forum comment, whenever I mentioned the church's recent newsroom blog post, I meant this: http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/church-statement-charlottesville-virginia

And here is the link to the Twitter feed of the Twitter user "Wife With A Purpose": https://twitter.com/apurposefulwife?lang=en

 

Disclaimers:

I'm not the type of person to care about "white culture" or to want to celebrate the white race or white culture or what-have-you. I guess I tend to think that promoting the culture of any race tends to be an "-ites" type of thing (Zoramites, Lamanites, etc) and should be avoided generally. And I suppose this is an answer to the questions I posed above: promoting/celebrating any race is to be avoided.

I denounce white supremacy. I denounce violence. I condemn the actions of the people (on both sides) at the white supremacist rally who acted violently. As I read the twitter posts of "Wife With A Purpose", I skipped over her re-tweets. I did not read them. If the re-tweets make it sound as if she supports white supremacy, (and, assuming she does NOT support white supremacy), then she should be more careful about what she re-tweets.

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Guest MormonGator
44 minutes ago, DoctorLemon said:

I'm a little surprised that racism is still such a big problem in America.  

I don't think it is. Actual racists are probably 1/10 of 1% of the population. 

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Racism is not 'the' problem, racism is a problem, but the growing racist influence in our country is the result of the problem of evil leaders and the destruction of the family unit.  Racism in our modern culture has less to do with people actually being racist, and more to do with people being trained, led and guided toward racism, on purpose.

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I looked Wife With a Purpose or whatever her name is up online.

I don't think she would get along with my family.  She would probably step into my house and take one look at my Qu'rans on the shelf, large collection of Afro-Arab music, and my family's penchant for eating Indian and Japanese food and run away screaming.

I think being stuck in strictly white European culture all the time, as she advises, is BORING.  That is why I appropriate from all the world's cultures!  (as much as the Church allows).  I happen to like playing Japanese RPGs, eating Thai food, listening to Indian music, having African art around my house, etc.  

I also think her comments about women having a duty to stay slim are chauvenistic and incredibly sexist, not to mention myopic and plain dumb.

I pretty much tuned out after this.  It is clear we are not her type of people, and she is not my type of person.  In fact, she is just the type of person with just the type of mindset that me and my wife would laugh to scorn.

Edited by DoctorLemon
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3 minutes ago, DoctorLemon said:

I looked Wife With a Purpose or whatever her name is up online.

I don't think she would get along with my family.  She would probably step into my house and take one look at my Qu'rans on the shelf, large collection of Afro-Arab music, and my family's penchant for eating Indian and Japanese food and run away screaming.

I think being stuck in strictly white European culture all the time, as she advises, is BORING.  That is why I appropriate from all the world's cultures!  (as much as the Church allows).  I happen to like playing Japanese RPGs, eating Thai food, listening to Indian music, having African art around my house, etc.  

I also think her comments about women having a duty to stay slim are chauvenistic and incredibly sexist.

I pretty much tuned out after this.  It is clear we are not her type of people, and she is not my type of person.  In fact, she is just the type of person with just the type of mindset that me and my wife would laugh to scorn.

 The biggest drawback to looking at her blog (And I strongly suggest that people do that!) is that we are giving her the attention she so obviously wants. It's a double edged sword. 

I think she'll burn herself out with all the hate mail she's surely getting. 

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@eddified, as it pertains to her specifically I have three thoughts:

First, hit birds flutter.  If she didn't think the Church was talking about her with its references to white supremacy, why'd she react so viscerally to their statement?

Second, she's palling around with people who are overtly white supremacists.  She was apparently on the speaker roster at Charlottesville but cancelled at the last minute due to security concerns.  She routinely retweets white supremacists who champion ideas she claims (when outsiders are watching) not to embrace.  Moreover, she herself has challenged her readers to produce white babies.  Notice that--she doesn't encourage *adopting* babies of other ethnicities and *raising* them in "white culture".  The babies themselves must be white.

And third:  while much of the things we love about American civic culture may have been pioneered and developed by Europeans or "whites", I disagree with the notion that those attributes are supposed to remain "white".  Individual liberty, rule of law, limited government, self-sufficiency, "Protestant" work ethic--these values should be viewed as divine inspiration, entrusted first to their earthly promulgators for distribution to the entire world regardless of race.  WWP ought to be advocating these virtues on their own merits, rather than defending them on the basis of the racial identity of their earliest practitioners.

Edited by Just_A_Guy
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  • pam featured this topic
43 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

@eddified, as it pertains to her specifically I have three thoughts:

First, hit birds flutter.  If she didn't think the Church was talking about her with its references to white supremacy, why'd she react so viscerally to their statement?

Second, she's palling around with people who are overtly white supremacists.  She was apparently on the speaker roster at Charlottesville but cancelled at the last minute due to security concerns.  She routinely retweets white supremacists who champion ideas she claims (when outsiders are watching) not to embrace.  Moreover, she herself has challenged her readers to produce white babies.  Notice that--she doesn't encourage *adopting* babies of other ethnicities and *raising* them in "white culture".  The babies themselves must be white.

And third:  while much of the things we love about American civic culture may have been pioneered and developed by Europeans or "whites", I disagree with the notion that those attributes are supposed to remain "white".  Individual liberty, rule of law, limited government, self-sufficiency, "Protestant" work ethic--these values should be viewed as divine inspiration, entrusted first to their earthly promulgators for distribution to the entire world regardless of race.  WWP ought to be advocating these virtues on their own merits, rather than defending them on the basis of the racial identity of their earliest practitioners.

I like your comment, and thank you for making it. I didn't know many of the things you said. Once again, thanks! I see you were answering the question about why you think she really means "white race". OK. Got it. However, I'm really wondering about "white culture" and when it is or isn't OK to use the term, what the term means, and when it is or isn't OK to celebrate the white race or "white culture".

My questions echo the questions of "Big Brutha", (some random commenter on the internet). Quote below copied from this link: http://disq.us/p/1lecg25

Quote

I keep seeing this "white culture...whatever that is" concept. Do you mean to say that there is no such thing? Or that you think it is ill defined? 
Because that is puzzling to me.

It is clear that there are white people in the United States, Europe, and in other parts of the world. It is clear that the term "white" contains some ambiguities depending on who is defining it but I think it is not a secret that it generally is used to denote people of European descent whether in Europe or elsewhere.

So are you arguing that such people have no culture? Or are you arguing that using the term as a catch all is insufficiently specific?

Because we do the same thing all the time with other groups and no one seems to bat an eye, whether they are members of those particular groupings or not. I mean there are Asian grocery stores, Latin music, Arab cuisine, black culture, etc. So if those terms, while certainly not perhaps as specific as saying Vietnamese grocery store, Guatemalan music, Lebanese cuisine, or culture of the African American community in Harlem, are not in and of themselves incorrect...then why is using the term "white culture" any more so?

White supremacy would of course be a problematic view contrary to the notion that God loves and has promised salvation to all of His children. And I am defining white supremacy as the view that whites are inherently superior to all other races.

But why would the Church be opposed to someone who advocates for "white culture" as something worth preserving? Again, is that because it is too much of a catch all term? Or because it is seen as being in opposition to some other culture?

The Church is obviously not against preservation and even promotion of the culture of some ethnic groups. After all, there is the very famous Polynesian Cultural Center in Hawaii. "Polynesian" does not seem to be too much of a catch all term. Also, it does not seem that attempting to preserve aspects of Polynesian traditional culture is seen as wrong inside the Church.

If someone built a "European Cultural Center" in say Des Moines would that be obviously wrong?

I'm just asking. I don't really have any skin in the game, so to speak. I'm not one to use the term "white culture" so I'm just wondering what to think of it. 

Edit: sorry @Just_A_Guy, I now see that your post does help dispel some additional confusion I was seeing. 

Edited by eddified
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Can I just say that I'm very grateful to have grown up in an area that there was so much of a diversity in races and cultures?  Seriously...I was a minority at my high school.  My friends were mainly, blacks, Mexicans and Filipinos.  There were three of us that were inseparable.  They called us the mod squad.  One white, one black and one Chinese/Hawaiian.  We did everything together.  If you were to see my high school choir picture you would notice me right off.  Front row center, the only blonde in a sea of dark hair.

But I'm very thankful to have grown up in this kind of an environment.  I think I grew up with an extreme appreciation for the differences in people.  I grew up learning that while our skin colors might be different, we were all the same.  

I wish my kids could have grown up in the same kind of environment.  They grew up in Utah in a predominantly affluent area.  (Not me, we were the poor folks).  But I have always tried to teach them and have stressed so many times the importance of acceptance and love for everyone.  My son happened to mention that the other day while all of this stuff was happening.  He said, "Mom I'm really glad that you brought us up the way you did and taught us to love everyone."  

Wow...one of my kids did listen to me. :)

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1 hour ago, eddified said:

I'm guessing that her definition of "white culture" might differ from the definition of "white culture" as used in the church's recent newsroom blog post? (Based her specifically denouncing white supremacy, this is my best guess.) What do you think? What is your definition of "white culture"? Are there any definitions of "white culture" which you would could accept as something to promote/celebrate? Is there room for any celebration of white culture, while simultaneously avoiding white supremacy? @Just_A_Guy, why do you assume she means "race" when she talks about "culture"? For that matter, assuming one supports celebrating the black race (ex: "Black History Month"), is it still wrong in all cases to celebrate the white race? @Just_A_Guy, is it always wrong to talk about white culture (and thereby "poison the well")? Is there a way to talk about "white culture" without really meaning "white race"? I ask these questions of all, not really trying to pick on

There's no such thing as "white culture" in the same manner that there is no such thing as "black culture".  Even if we isolate these phrases within the USA.  A black person of Dominican descent, for example, has a completely different cultural profile than a black person of African descent.  A white person of Scandinavian descent also has a completely different cultural profile than a white person of Mexican descent.  Even within the Native American population, each tribe has a different cultural profile than other tribes.  And anybody with generations of American ancestry more likely have nothing much in common culturally with their ethnic heritage.

The presence of these phrases in the arena of public opinion shows the successful infiltration of Marxism into American politics through collective identities.  Therefore, the usage of "white culture" and even "black culture" shows either an activism for Marxism or are just plain ignorant.

Edited by anatess2
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15 hours ago, prisonchaplain said:

I have no issues with churches denounces racism, broadly. White Supremacy--particularly in God's name, is anti-Christian. I'm frustrated, though. What to say when a half white half black student tells my half white half Asian daughter she's white because she's not dark enough? And, if that angers me, is it because I'm protecting my privilege? For some, disagreeing with affirmative action, supporting law enforcement, calling for a color blind society, etc. are all examples of racism. Then there's the reality that if we have to say were not racist then many would say we are, yet if we don't say anything then we definitely are. ARRGH!

Not only do I (like you say) have no issues with churches denouncing racism, I think it behooves them to denounce such. With regard to the reality of feeling it necessary to disclaim racism I gained a very dear friend whose friendship required some effort on my part. My reputation (based upon hearsay and stereotypes) as being a racist Mormon preceded me, and so when she learned that I was coming to work in the same department she worried that I would make her life difficult. It was natural I think for me to feel the need to "say" I was not the things she worried I might be. It was more valuable to demonstrate that I am not those things. She of course came to the relationship with her own pre-judgements but over a short time we successfully navigated the waters of human tendencies, and our friendship blossomed to become something we both treasured. Happily, we arrived at a point where she teased me about not being so white after all, and I teased her back that she needed to "lighten" up. :D

 

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9 minutes ago, Mike said:

Not only do I (like you say) have no issues with churches denouncing racism, I think it behooves them to denounce such. With regard to the reality of feeling it necessary to disclaim racism I gained a very dear friend whose friendship required some effort on my part. My reputation (based upon hearsay and stereotypes) as being a racist Mormon preceded me, and so when she learned that I was coming to work in the same department she worried that I would make her life difficult. It was natural I think for me to feel the need to "say" I was not the things she worried I might be. It was more valuable to demonstrate that I am not those things. She of course came to the relationship with her own pre-judgements but over a short time we successfully navigated the waters of human tendencies, and our friendship blossomed to become something we both treasured. Happily, we arrived at a point where she teased me about not being so white after all, and I teased her back that she needed to "lighten" up. :D

 

Love this! Thank you for sharing. I completely agree that it "behooves" the church to denounce racism.

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Guest Godless
52 minutes ago, pam said:

Can I just say that I'm very grateful to have grown up in an area that there was so much of a diversity in races and cultures?  Seriously...I was a minority at my high school.  My friends were mainly, blacks, Mexicans and Filipinos.  There were three of us that were inseparable.  They called us the mod squad.  One white, one black and one Chinese/Hawaiian.  We did everything together.  If you were to see my high school choir picture you would notice me right off.  Front row center, the only blonde in a sea of dark hair.

But I'm very thankful to have grown up in this kind of an environment.  I think I grew up with an extreme appreciation for the differences in people.  I grew up learning that while our skin colors might be different, we were all the same.  

I wish my kids could have grown up in the same kind of environment.  They grew up in Utah in a predominantly affluent area.  (Not me, we were the poor folks).  But I have always tried to teach them and have stressed so many times the importance of acceptance and love for everyone.  My son happened to mention that the other day while all of this stuff was happening.  He said, "Mom I'm really glad that you brought us up the way you did and taught us to love everyone."  

Wow...one of my kids did listen to me. :)

I had a similar upbringing as a military brat. My childhood friends came from a variety of different cultural and ethnic backgrounds. I attended high school in a predominantly black area, and I currently live in a city where only 1/4 of the population is white. I've never felt that I was oppressed because of the color of my skin, nor that any ethnic majorities were trying to challenge or erase my heritage, and it boggles me that a woman in one of the whitest parts of the country feels that her race is under threat. 

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1 minute ago, Godless said:

I had a similar upbringing as a military brat. My childhood friends came from a variety of different cultural and ethnic backgrounds. I attended high school in a predominantly black area, and I currently live in a city where only 1/4 of the population is white. I've never felt that I was oppressed because of the color of my skin, nor that any ethnic majorities were trying to challenge or erase my heritage, and it boggles me that a woman in one of the whitest parts of the country feels that her race is under threat. 

The thing is..she is taking "white culture" to another level that was not intended.   She's got that meaning all wrong.  It's not saying she can't be proud of her white heritage.  Far from it.  We can all be proud of our heritage no matter the color.  It's when we start thinking that our "color" is better than all of the rest that it becomes a problem.

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In her description on her twitter account or a post she made she said that she has found Jesus.  Well I don't know what Jesus she found because the Jesus I know and love would never talk about race and such the way she does.  Christ is the greatest example of love for all.  That's the Jesus I know and love.

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Guest Godless
1 hour ago, eddified said:

I looked at her twitter page. I really dislike how she is speaking about the church and its statement. I agree with the sentiment of the church statement. Of course white supremacy is wrong! But I think there is some middle ground area which we could discuss here. "Wife With A Purpose" (the twitter handle for the LDS blogger) is on dangerous ground. Yet, she denies saying anything about whites being better (white supremacy).. in fact one of her tweets says she "never claim[ed] supremacy of any kind". If you ignore her re-tweets (stuff she didn't write) and ignore her tweets rebuking the Church's recent newsroom blog post, and look at only what she herself has penned about white culture and white supremacy (and do so in a spirit of trying to understand where she is coming from), I don't think you'll find anything supporting white supremacy.... at least, I didn't find anything supporting white supremacy, at least not directly. What I did find was promotion of "white culture". She seems to be protesting the fact that to be politically correct, we can't celebrate white culture, we can only celebrate non-white culture. If you understand her as supporting white culture but NOT supporting white supremacism, then, as I understand it, her only issue with the church's recent newsroom blog post is where it condemns "white culture".

Here is the part of the church's newsroom blog post that I believe she has issues with:

I'm guessing that her definition of "white culture" might differ from the definition of "white culture" as used in the church's recent newsroom blog post? (Based her specifically denouncing white supremacy, this is my best guess.) What do you think? What is your definition of "white culture"? Are there any definitions of "white culture" which you would could accept as something to promote/celebrate? Is there room for any celebration of white culture, while simultaneously avoiding white supremacy? @Just_A_Guy, why do you assume she means "race" when she talks about "culture"? For that matter, assuming one supports celebrating the black race (ex: "Black History Month"), is it still wrong in all cases to celebrate the white race? @Just_A_Guy, is it always wrong to talk about white culture (and thereby "poison the well")? Is there a way to talk about "white culture" without really meaning "white race"? I ask these questions of all, not really trying to pick on @Just_A_Guy specifically. Hm, come to think of it, "white" *is* a race, so when one says "white culture", it's really hard to not take this as meaning the "white race". 

 

NOTES:

I'm asking for discussion of the more "middle ground" area. Of course white supremacy is evil.

In this forum comment, whenever I mentioned the church's recent newsroom blog post, I meant this: http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/church-statement-charlottesville-virginia

And here is the link to the Twitter feed of the Twitter user "Wife With A Purpose": https://twitter.com/apurposefulwife?lang=en

 

Disclaimers:

I'm not the type of person to care about "white culture" or to want to celebrate the white race or white culture or what-have-you. I guess I tend to think that promoting the culture of any race tends to be an "-ites" type of thing (Zoramites, Lamanites, etc) and should be avoided generally. And I suppose this is an answer to the questions I posed above: promoting/celebrating any race is to be avoided.

I denounce white supremacy. I denounce violence. I condemn the actions of the people (on both sides) at the white supremacist rally who acted violently. As I read the twitter posts of "Wife With A Purpose", I skipped over her re-tweets. I did not read them. If the re-tweets make it sound as if she supports white supremacy, (and, assuming she does NOT support white supremacy), then she should be more careful about what she re-tweets.

Oktoberfest is right around the corner, and it's a huge deal in this part of Texas. Should we call it a celebration of German culture or white culture? Germany is a very white country, after all. In a city where nearly 2/3 of the population is Hispanic, do you think people would embrace a "white culture" celebration? Of course not. Because it shouldn't be about white people, it should be about celebrating the German heritage that has deep roots here. You don't have to be white to celebrate that, just like you don't have to be Hispanic to participate in Cinco de Mayo and Fiesta activities. We have become a nation that celebrates multiculturalism, and that includes European culture. Why give it an exclusionary feel by making it about skin color? 

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39 minutes ago, Godless said:

Oktoberfest is right around the corner, and it's a huge deal in this part of Texas. Should we call it a celebration of German culture or white culture? Germany is a very white country, after all. In a city where nearly 2/3 of the population is Hispanic, do you think people would embrace a "white culture" celebration? Of course not. Because it shouldn't be about white people, it should be about celebrating the German heritage that has deep roots here. You don't have to be white to celebrate that, just like you don't have to be Hispanic to participate in Cinco de Mayo and Fiesta activities. We have become a nation that celebrates multiculturalism, and that includes European culture. Why give it an exclusionary feel by making it about skin color? 

Ah, yes. I agree, if we're going to make something about skin color then it feels exclusionary. Same as if someone wants to celebrate Black History month--again, it's about skin color, so it's exclusionary. But I think perhaps people are more sensitive when it's about race vs cultural factors. I don't see people going around saying, "I'm not part German, so you should stop celebrating German heritage". When we celebrate German heritage, one could say it is exclusionary towards non-Germans. But no one does. No one says this; no non-Germans get offended when it's time to celebrate Germain heritage.... yet when it's about race, it becomes an issue... why is that? (I don't have the answers, I'm honestly wondering why this is the case.)

Edit: likewise, one doesn't have to be white to celebrate white history, so what's the big deal? I guess I don't see your point.

Edited by eddified
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When people want "safe spaces" without whites, I'm not really offended. I do feel excluded, but I don't really care. Let them have their white-free safe spaces. If that's how they want to use their constitutionally guaranteed right to exercise their freedom of association, it doesn't harm me.

Edited by eddified
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Guest Godless
5 minutes ago, eddified said:

Ah, yes. I agree, if we're going to make something about skin color then it feels exclusionary. Same as if someone wants to celebrate Black History month--again, it's about skin color, so it's exclusionary. But I think perhaps people are more sensitive when it's about race vs cultural factors. I don't see people going around saying, "I'm not part German, so you should stop celebrating German heritage". When we celebrate German heritage, one could say it is exclusionary towards non-Germans. But no one does. No one says this; no non-Germans get offended when it's time to celebrate Germain heritage.... yet when it's about race, it becomes an issue... why is that? (I don't have the answers, I'm honestly wondering why this is the case.)

Edit: likewise, one doesn't have to be white to celebrate white history, so what's the big deal? I guess I don't see your point.

It's a matter of separating "race" from "culture". The idea of "white culture" does the exact opposite of that. When we tie in our traditions with a cultural heritate rather than a race, then it's easier for people to share in that culture. It may seem like semantics, but it's important to create a distinction. After all, there are people in my community who share both German and Hispanic heritage. How do you think they'd feel about putting the "white culture" label on the German side of their heritage? What kind of effect do you think that would have on someone who may take pride in their German heritage, but doesn't appear to the world to be white? Whether the "purposeful wives" of the world want to see it or not, we are a nation of intersecting cultures. To box up those cultures into categories of race is antithetical to what we're supposed to represent as a nation. If this woman wants society to reflect her narrow view of how our culture should look, there's a town in Utah called Hildale that might appeal to her. 

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A lot of this talk about semantics and terms and whatever people say might better be settled by ignoring what a lot of people say about racism and just worry about what they actually do.  Just because we see something out of balance, doesn't mean it's sinister. Wait until you see someone harming someone else.  Anything else is usually subjective and colored by our cultural lenses we each see through.

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Something interesting to think of-given that the outcry was/is so anti "White supremacist" one could easily argue that we live in one of the least racist countries in the world. Ask yourself-do you know anyone on social media who is defending the Neo-Nazi movement other than saying "These people are scumbags but have the right to assemble/speak because free speech is so scared." I don't! 

We need to keep perspective. Nazi's are not infiltrating all   ranks of society. This is not Germany in 1937. 

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