Traveler Posted August 31, 2017 Report Share Posted August 31, 2017 21 hours ago, prisonchaplain said: @Traveler it's no surprise to me that Jesus commands us to love our fellows into heaven, as opposed to hating or neglecting them into hell. I am not sure from your wording - but you may have missed the point of Matt. It is not about loving our fellows into heaven - it is loving even those that choose what you would term worthy of hell. Because G-d loves even those we think of as lost. It is not a matter of punishment pf evil and rewarding good - G-d causes his sun to shine on both and well as to rain on both. I thought the symbolism used my Jesus in Matt. would be clear? The Traveler Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prisonchaplain Posted August 31, 2017 Report Share Posted August 31, 2017 @Traveler If it's being suggested that hell is a contradiction of Jesus' command that we love our enemies, etc., I simply disagree. The same Jesus told the account of Lazarus and the rich man. God's justice does not contradict our need to love our enemies. SilentOne 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Traveler Posted September 1, 2017 Report Share Posted September 1, 2017 22 hours ago, prisonchaplain said: @Traveler If it's being suggested that hell is a contradiction of Jesus' command that we love our enemies, etc., I simply disagree. The same Jesus told the account of Lazarus and the rich man. God's justice does not contradict our need to love our enemies. It is not the vague and nebulous definition or interpretations of love that I am bringing into questions. It is what someone deliberately causes to happen to others. Matt clearly indicates that G-d causes the sun to shine and the rain to fall on both the righteous and wicked. I understand this as symbolism that heaven and hell is not so much a blessing or curse from G-d but what we make of the opportunities he provides. Not as the idea that it must be so but that our blessing and curses are more to do with what is inside us than what is forced upon us from G-d. In short, he gives us opportunity and experience and we make it into heaven or hell. The Traveler Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prisonchaplain Posted September 1, 2017 Report Share Posted September 1, 2017 I've always understood God causing the rain to fall on the righteous and unrighteous to have more to do with the ordinary run of history. There are times when evil people enjoy good circumstances and when good people endure hardships. I do not see any way to look at the context and see a description of eternal rewards or damnation. SilentOne and mordorbund 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Traveler Posted September 1, 2017 Report Share Posted September 1, 2017 4 hours ago, prisonchaplain said: I've always understood God causing the rain to fall on the righteous and unrighteous to have more to do with the ordinary run of history. There are times when evil people enjoy good circumstances and when good people endure hardships. I do not see any way to look at the context and see a description of eternal rewards or damnation. Hmmmmm I see the context as how G-d deals with good and evil. So I am left with the assumption that you believe G-d changes his methods and purposes over time. I am not saying that do evil will not experience regret, experience of great pain and discomfort - just that each individual chooses joy or regret and pain. In essence G-d cannot confort those that will not be conforted. Thus the see the warning given with the parable of Lazarus is that evil will bring suffering - but I do not believe it is because of G-d. G-d is not what causes suffering nor is it G-d that demands it. I believe it is evil the causes suffering and demands it - thus thoes that embrace evil will suffer. Since I believe evil is the source of suffering - I do not accept that G-d is evil. Perhaps there is something in scripture and the nature of G-d that I have missed - so I will ask this more directly. Do you believe that evil causes suffering? The Traveler Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prisonchaplain Posted September 3, 2017 Report Share Posted September 3, 2017 We discussed this during our family altar tonight. Jesus forgives one of the thieves on a cross next to his. He prays that God will forgive those in the crowds mocking him. Yet, the soul beside him that is dying and mocking does not seem to have any hope. Of Judas we are told it would have been better had he never been born. We extend God's grace and mercy to the living, but there will be a Day of Judgment. Christians have taught this for 2,000 years. Most still do. Muslims believe this, as well. The doctrine of hell is not some aberrant, twisted idea I came up with. It's foundational Christian and Islamic teaching. God is not the torturer. He is the just judge, and he will damn some souls. Even LDS theology has an outer darkness, if I'm not mistaken. It may be smaller, and seem less harsh, but if souls suffer, the same questions must be asked of God. No? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prisonchaplain Posted September 3, 2017 Report Share Posted September 3, 2017 (edited) This from lds.org: Outer Darkness: Outer darkness is where Satan and those who have followed him will live. These people will be those who chose to live with Satan. They will not be forgiven. These people will live forever in darkness, sorrow, and suffering with Satan and the spirits who followed him. My description seems accurate--fewer people, less harsh. Still: no forgiveness--suffering. Others suggest that if God is all-knowing there is some culpability. I'm not an expert, but I suppose the answer will be that in pre-mortality intelligences chose their lives, knowing that would be the end. Still, it just seems (to my non-LDS eyes) like a much lighter version of hell--but still one that faces similar questions and accusations. By the way, @Armin my faith is Assemblies of God. I am a guest here, and interact often with LDS--but, no, I am not an expert, nor an adherent. Edited September 3, 2017 by prisonchaplain Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Traveler Posted September 4, 2017 Report Share Posted September 4, 2017 8 hours ago, prisonchaplain said: This from lds.org: Outer Darkness: Outer darkness is where Satan and those who have followed him will live. These people will be those who chose to live with Satan. They will not be forgiven. These people will live forever in darkness, sorrow, and suffering with Satan and the spirits who followed him. My description seems accurate--fewer people, less harsh. Still: no forgiveness--suffering. Others suggest that if God is all-knowing there is some culpability. I'm not an expert, but I suppose the answer will be that in pre-mortality intelligences chose their lives, knowing that would be the end. Still, it just seems (to my non-LDS eyes) like a much lighter version of hell--but still one that faces similar questions and accusations. By the way, @Armin my faith is Assemblies of God. I am a guest here, and interact often with LDS--but, no, I am not an expert, nor an adherent. I have been thinking about hell and the concept of literal verses symbolic references to fire and brimstone. Then as part of my random scripture study I came across Alma chapters 12-13 in the Book of Mormon. Specifically, we LDS are told in scripture that a hell of fire and brimstone is symbolic and that the greatest guilt and misery of the unrepentant will be to stand before G-d in the full light of truth realizing one’s unworthiness. I also thought about your reference to Lazarus that you say is most likely void of symbolism and allegory – there is no mention (as I recall) of fire and brimstone. The Traveler Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prisonchaplain Posted September 4, 2017 Report Share Posted September 4, 2017 Luke 16:22-24: 22And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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