God was once a man?!

[zil]

Just now, Carborendum said:

Sometimes He does.  Not with force or compulsion, but...

I had a prompting to put together a month of food storage for my home teaching family.  So, I took some from my storage and organized it.  I started carrying it to the car and my wife asked,"What are you doing?"

"I'm taking some food storage to my home teaching family."

"Why?"

"Because... I need to."

"Ok."

Somehow, that doesn't seem quite the same as God making me eat chocolate ice cream.

[Guest]

Just now, zil said:

Somehow, that doesn't seem quite the same as God making me eat chocolate ice cream.

Funny how that's never happened to me either.  But I'm sure I've had promptings to eat Kim Chee.

Edited August 24, 2017 by Guest

[person0]

8 minutes ago, zil said:

Somehow, that doesn't seem quite the same as God making me eat chocolate ice cream.

I could sneak some Sudden Death hot sauce into a bite of soup for you.  The the fastest and most effective remedy would be ice cream.  As a result the Spirit could confirm that you should be eating it.  Therefore, the secret to getting God's instruction to eat ice cream = eat hot sauce 

[zil]

Just now, person0 said:

...bite of soup...

Quote

soup

so͞op/

noun

noun: soup; plural noun: soups

1. 1.

   a liquid dish, typically made by boiling meat, fish, or vegetables, etc., in stock or water.

Quote

bite

bīt/

verb

verb: bite; 3rd person present: bites; past tense: bit; gerund or present participle: biting; past participle: bitten

1. 1.

   (of a person or animal) use the teeth to cut into something in order to eat it.

[person0]

1 hour ago, Armin said:

I'd be interested in the difference of determinism and absolute determinism.

Some people could believe that some events are determined and some are not.  Absolute determinism would involve all events being 100% predetermined, that is why I specified using the word absolute.

[prisonchaplain]

21 hours ago, Carborendum said:

This purpose presupposes we were there in the first place to be reconciled at all.  But go back a step (or try to explain what I'm missing) where we don't exist at all.  He gets an idea into His head to create us.  Why did He do that?

I recognize that we have to ignore for a moment that God always knows all things and there is no moment when He says,"Hey, I just thought of something."  But I need it broken down for my mortal and Mormon mind here.  Why?

BTW, it was a well thought out response.

The short answer to your question--one I believe @anatess2 was driving at--is that God seems to have determined that a conflict had to take place for free will to be free. Believing in God's justice and wisdom, it seems that the conflict had to include the ultimate reward and misery (Heaven with God vs. eternal hell). Since God made the initial call, and brought us into being to face those choices, does He not bear some responsibility--especially for all the temporal misery (rape, abuse, murder, trauma, etc.), and for hell? A solution--the LDS understanding--is to believe that we had a knowing part in accepting this opportunity, and even had a hand in choosing how and when we would manifest on earth. My response is not so much to balk. If the LDS modern prophecies are true, then the problem is at least mitigated.

Ultimately, my answer does require a measure of faith. My faith statement is that God is good and just. If so, then our dilemmas, choices, and destinies must be good and just. It must be that we have ample opportunity to choose God and heaven, and to shun sin, the devil, and hell. It must be that those souls who land in eternal hell do not belong anywhere else.

God is good and just. He cannot be culpable for sin and hell. The LDS theology on these matters explains how this is so to a greater degree than I can. However, as the history of Christianity bears out, for most believers God's character is not in question. I will grant though that this generation, in particular, is struggling with the doctrine of hell. Most of us have heard of Rob Bell's Love Wins. His book, questioning the doctrine of eternal hell, gained much more traction than it probably would have 20 years ago.  This is a worthy discussion.

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

I will grant though that this generation, in particular, is struggling with the doctrine of hell. Most of us have heard of Rob Bell's Love Wins. His book, questioning the doctrine of eternal hell, gained much more traction than it probably would have 20 years ago.  This is a worthy discussion.

Thank you for the well thought out and soul searching response.  I do appreciate it.

If I can ask you about this final statement... What is your idea of hell and what is required to be banished there?

[prisonchaplain]

Hell is eternal fire. It produces wailing and gnashing of teeth. In other words, I take the words of Revelation literally. It takes rejection of the Creator's love to go there. I'll also disclose that I believe something that is controversial--that general revelation (such as the witness of creation, it's majesty and design) can offer a soul enough to respond to that they could enter heaven. Many Christians believe that nothing short of a "sinner's prayer" type repentance will suffice. Since my belief is not a rock-solid doctrine, I am a heavy supporter of mission work. Whether I am right or wrong on that aspect, I am convinced that God is just and good, so hell must be a place that is also just.

[Traveler]

2 hours ago, prisonchaplain said:

The short answer to your question--one I believe @anatess2 was driving at--is that God seems to have determined that a conflict had to take place for free will to be free. Believing in God's justice and wisdom, it seems that the conflict had to include the ultimate reward and misery (Heaven with God vs. eternal hell). Since God made the initial call, and brought us into being to face those choices, does He not bear some responsibility--especially for all the temporal misery (rape, abuse, murder, trauma, etc.), and for hell? A solution--the LDS understanding--is to believe that we had a knowing part in accepting this opportunity, and even had a hand in choosing how and when we would manifest on earth. My response is not so much to balk. If the LDS modern prophecies are true, then the problem is at least mitigated.

Ultimately, my answer does require a measure of faith. My faith statement is that God is good and just. If so, then our dilemmas, choices, and destinies must be good and just. It must be that we have ample opportunity to choose God and heaven, and to shun sin, the devil, and hell. It must be that those souls who land in eternal hell do not belong anywhere else.

God is good and just. He cannot be culpable for sin and hell. The LDS theology on these matters explains how this is so to a greater degree than I can. However, as the history of Christianity bears out, for most believers God's character is not in question. I will grant though that this generation, in particular, is struggling with the doctrine of hell. Most of us have heard of Rob Bell's Love Wins. His book, questioning the doctrine of eternal hell, gained much more traction than it probably would have 20 years ago.  This is a worthy discussion.

 

Sometime I have thought that by asking certain questions that obvious conclusions would be discovered.  The only obvious thing is that what is obvious to me somehow is not obvious to very many others.   From your statement, “Since God made the initial call, and brought us into being to face those choices, does He not bear some responsibility”.  As many times as I have put forth this idea – I thought those that believe in Christ would see the obvious.  That is, that G-d does understand and accept a level of responsibility and culpability – This is in part why there is a Messiah or Christ. 

I would suggest we consider one reason why justice is real is that Jesus, as the Messiah, could suffer for all the sins of mankind.  This is so logical and straight forward I do not understand why it would seem that I am the only one that understand this – but think this through.

Thanks

 

The Traveler 

[Traveler]

1 hour ago, prisonchaplain said:

Hell is eternal fire. It produces wailing and gnashing of teeth. In other words, I take the words of Revelation literally. It takes rejection of the Creator's love to go there. I'll also disclose that I believe something that is controversial--that general revelation (such as the witness of creation, it's majesty and design) can offer a soul enough to respond to that they could enter heaven. Many Christians believe that nothing short of a "sinner's prayer" type repentance will suffice. Since my belief is not a rock-solid doctrine, I am a heavy supporter of mission work. Whether I am right or wrong on that aspect, I am convinced that God is just and good, so hell must be a place that is also just.

What practical differences are there to Evangelicals between death and hell.  Are they the same, are they two very different things? Or they related in any way.  What is the relationship between the two?

 

The Traveler 

[zil]

3 minutes ago, Armin said:

Be careful. If you would or wouldn't feel guilty were based on the question of what might be determined for you.

Good point, but it wouldn't be my fault either way.

[Traveler]

7 hours ago, zil said:

I wish I could believe in absolute determinism.  Then I could say, "Excuse me, but God's making me go get some chocolate ice cream now."  And I wouldn't feel at all guilty about any of it.

Here is a thought - perhaps there is an element of determinism that many do not consider.  Because we lived with G-d in the pre-mortal existence for a very long time – maybe we did things and made important decisions of an eternal nature.  Maybe everything that can happen to us in this life was agreed to before we came.  Maybe there is a lot more determined that many are willing to accept – but it was us that determined such things and not G-d.  Meaning that whatever happens in this life – pre-determined or not was of our own choosing.   Revelation tells us that the doctrine of determinism is not true – but that doctrine does not take into account our pre-mortal existence and the possibility that we, through our agency determined our mortal experience.  So, it is possible that it was determined that you would get chocolate ice cream and it was still you fault – so feel guilt anyway.

 

The Traveler 

[fatima]

I haven't read the whole thread, but I've gotten to page 4 (whew!)  Correct me if I'm wrong here..

LDS are saying that our intelligence existed before God made our bodies, which is why we have free will?  God did not give us free will, because a loving father would not give us something that would lead us away from Him?

Prison Chaplain is saying God created us with free will from nothing?

If that is the discussion in a nutshell (and I'll go back and read the rest of the thread), why is it not equally 'unloving' for God to take our intelligence, which lived with him in Heaven before He gave us bodies, and put us on this earth to not choose Him?  To not choose exaltation?

To me the answer lies not so much in the 'how' of creation, but in the definition of what love is.

[Guest]

16 minutes ago, fatima said:

I haven't read the whole thread, but I've gotten to page 4 (whew!)  Correct me if I'm wrong here..

LDS are saying that our intelligence existed before God made our bodies, which is why we have free will?  God did not give us free will, because a loving father would not give us something that would lead us away from Him?

Prison Chaplain is saying God created us with free will from nothing?

If that is the discussion in a nutshell (and I'll go back and read the rest of the thread), why is it not equally 'unloving' for God to take our intelligence, which lived with him in Heaven before He gave us bodies, and put us on this earth to not choose Him?  To not choose exaltation?

To me the answer lies not so much in the 'how' of creation, but in the definition of what love is.

PC asked about the same question. I answered it.

We choose our kingdom because that is the best we'd be able to choose with God's help.   Without His help we'd be the spiritual equivalent of primordial soup for all Eternity.

Edited August 25, 2017 by Guest

[prisonchaplain]

On ‎8‎/‎24‎/‎2017 at 0:00 PM, Traveler said:

What practical differences are there to Evangelicals between death and hell.  Are they the same, are they two very different things? Or they related in any way.  What is the relationship between the two?

 

The Traveler 

We die and go to our reward or punishment. Hell would be the place of punishment--the ultimate separation from God.

[person0]

On 8/25/2017 at 7:27 AM, fatima said:

why is it not equally 'unloving' for God to take our intelligence, which lived with him in Heaven before He gave us bodies, and put us on this earth to not choose Him?

God didn't do that.  According to LDS doctrine, we chose to come to earth knowing the potential outcomes in advance.  That is, however, a valid question to be asked of those who do not believe it was our decision to come.

Additionally, a resurrected telestial being is more advanced and progressed than an unembodied spirit being.  Therefore, it would have been entirely reasonable for us to choose to come even knowing we might not make it to the celestial kingdom.

[Traveler]

4 hours ago, prisonchaplain said:

We die and go to our reward or punishment. Hell would be the place of punishment--the ultimate separation from God.

???? If death is the wage of sin – how do Evangelicals think that when they die (suffer death) they will get a reward?  Or is there a difference between a person dying and death.  Also, what do you think about Death and Hell giving up all the dead (Book of Revelation)?  Again, a question; how do you think you can be separated from G-d if G-d is everywhere?

 

The Traveler

[prisonchaplain]

8 minutes ago, Traveler said:

???? If death is the wage of sin – how do Evangelicals think that when they die (suffer death) they will get a reward?  Or is there a difference between a person dying and death.  Also, what do you think about Death and Hell giving up all the dead (Book of Revelation)?  Again, a question; how do you think you can be separated from G-d if G-d is everywhere?

 

The Traveler

Death ends up in the Lake of Fire, so ...

¹⁴ And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

¹⁵ And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. (Rev. 20:14-15)

Out of respect for the wishes of the inhabitants of that Lake of Fire, God will not be present there...so I guess you can say he is no longer everywhere.

Edited August 28, 2017 by prisonchaplain

[prisonchaplain]

@Armin The old-fashioned idea that there will be a Day of Judgment, and the general spiritual notion that good will be rewarded and bad punished, is common to most religions. What you call antiquated, most spiritual traditions call orthodoxy. The Golden Rule strikes most people--even many who are not particularly religious--as right.  "What goes around comes around." You do not have to buy-in to John's revelation, but your dismissal comes across as too easy and mostly "shooting from the hip," imho.

[prisonchaplain]

Let's start with nuance. God does not torture hell-bound souls. Yet, the souls are there, and God doesn't let them out. For much of human history hell seemed a natural consequence of wrong-doing. We've come to view it as cruel--especially because of the eternal aspect. There are rational arguments to be made. Some may convince most of the faithful. My bottom line is that I so trust the goodness and justice of God that I believe I will understand hell fully, when his mind is revealed to me. We have that promise--we shall receive the mind of Christ. Until then, I would note that we humans aren't too bad at making our own temporal hells.

[Traveler]

21 hours ago, Armin said:

What an antiquated image of God. I wouldn't say subnormal, but sometimes I'm afraid the author of the Book of Revelations could have been under the influence of some drugs,.. If I didn't know it better I would guess it was some LSD-like hallucinogen, but who knows...? I only wonder what might have made him so enraged...? I think it was anything but a revelation...

 

 

I believe the Book of Revelation employs a lot of symbolism – as did the parables of Christ and for the same reason.  I do not want to fault @prisonchaplainfor his religious opinions concerning particular doctrine but I find those that employ literal understanding of scripture when there are obvious flaws to such interpretation to be unreliable concerning doctrine.  But Jesus did not say to identify his disciples by doctrine – so – even though I am bewildered by what many say they believe – I can still be impressed by their respect and compassion for others.

I am concerned that religious doctrine outside of mortal man’s birth and death to be of a realm we can only understand in part and through symbolism.  But principles of truth – I believe must apply – even outside of our empirical mortal experience.   And if someone takes symbolism as literal - I believe we will not be so judged.  I believe all will have the same access to truth (perhpas following death) and their love of truth judged once they have access to it.

 

The Traveler

[prisonchaplain]

51 minutes ago, Traveler said:

I believe the Book of Revelation employs a lot of symbolism – as did the parables of Christ and for the same reason.  

I'd simply point out that Jesus' account of the rich man and Lazarus is probably not a parable, at all. Christ does not name people in his parables, yet Lazarus is the main character. Jesus appears to be telling us about an incident he knows about. There is little reason for me to look at the passage as symbolic or allegorical.

[prisonchaplain]

50 minutes ago, Armin said:

By the way, what means "temporal"...?

Oh, that was just my pompous, religious way of saying TEMPORARY.

[Traveler]

43 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

I'd simply point out that Jesus' account of the rich man and Lazarus is probably not a parable, at all. Christ does not name people in his parables, yet Lazarus is the main character. Jesus appears to be telling us about an incident he knows about. There is little reason for me to look at the passage as symbolic or allegorical.

How about Matt 5:44-45

Quote

44 But I say unto you Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you and pray for them which dispitefully use you, and persecute you;

45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

 

The Traveler

[prisonchaplain]

@Traveler it's no surprise to me that Jesus commands us to love our fellows into heaven, as opposed to hating or neglecting them into hell.