The Mormon Church Supported and Benefitted from Nazi Germany

[Anddenex]

I have a friend on Facebook that commented on her wall regarding the President's response to the Neo-Nazi group, and it is breaking her channel. Here is one comment directed toward her and the Church, which I wanted to find out thoughts. I did a quick search and the top results are from ex-Mormons and you know the think Mormon that pretends to be neutral and only providing facts.

Quote

"You're also Mormon- a religion that has notoriously fought to stay white and was at best complicit in Nazi Germany and at worst actually supported and benefitted from Nazis."

The irony, the rest of her comment was talking about not perpetuating hate and falsehoods.

[NeuroTypical]

Heh.  Yeah, my church tries so hard to stay white, that these news stories... are... um...  what was I saying?

http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/new-ghana-missionary-training-center-completed
(Will house 320-500 missionaries at a time)

Not to mention these: 
Africa: 8 temples
Asia: 11 temples
Oceania: 10 temples
South America: 26 temples
Caribbean: 2 temples
Central America: 6 temples
Mexico: 13 temples
 

Edited August 16, 2017 by NeuroTypical

[Guest]

Yeah, I wonder why they haven't kicked me out yet.

[anatess2]

47 minutes ago, Anddenex said:

 which I wanted to find out thoughts.

 

The first part of the quote - about wanting to stay white - is, of course, erroneous.  That quote only applies to the Priesthood and not Membership.

The rest of the quote is factually accurate except for the word "complicit" - that word applies only depending on context.

Mormons (and other religious sects) were persecuted in Germany BEFORE the rise of the National Socialist Movement.  This was mostly due to their attempt to free themselves from the common Church-ruled governments of Europe.  Religious tolerance started when the National Socialists came into power especially after Hitler failed to silence the Catholic Church.  The Mormon mission worked with the Nazis to establish their missions and the mission field expanded greatly post WWI.  Note that the eradication of the Jews in WWII was not due to religion but due to ethnicity.  A Jew - whether practicing or not - was eradicated.  It was a bloodline thing.  Hitler remained tolerant of religious sects as long as the religious sect "bends the knee" to the Nationalist government.  Churches such as Jehovah's Witnesses and Seventh Day Adventists and Islam whose religious teachings do not advocate for supremacy of the law of the land got eradicated.

So, in a way, the LDS Church did benefit - and thrived - under Nazi Germany.  Which, of course, does not mean, that the Church is complicit in the atrocious acts of the Nazis.  Although,  like the Catholic Church, individual members working outside of Church teachings may be complicit.

 

Edited August 16, 2017 by anatess2

[Anddenex]

2 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

The rest of the quote is factually accurate.

What you are describing is different then what is being stated. What you are describing is what happens in business all the time. Example, if you don't comply with Google's terms of agreement (bend the knee), you won't benefit from the opportunities Google has to offer.

The rest of the quote isn't factually accurate. The Church wasn't complicity with Nazis Germany and their agenda going into war. The Church did not support Nazis Germany. If other religions were kicked out, just as businesses were/are kicked out by Google updates, doesn't mean they were like "Go Germany" which is what is being presented. What the Church did with Germany is the same thing they did with East Germany after the war, and it is why they were able to build a temple in East Germany and that our members were still able to worship their God.

[anatess2]

8 minutes ago, Anddenex said:

What you are describing is different then what is being stated. What you are describing is what happens in business all the time. Example, if you don't comply with Google's terms of agreement (bend the knee), you won't benefit from the opportunities Google has to offer.

The rest of the quote isn't factually accurate. The Church wasn't complicity with Nazis Germany and their agenda going into war. The Church did not support Nazis Germany. If other religions were kicked out, just as businesses were/are kicked out by Google updates, doesn't mean they were like "Go Germany" which is what is being presented. What the Church did with Germany is the same thing they did with East Germany after the war, and it is why they were able to build a temple in East Germany and that our members were still able to worship their God.

I qualified that statement.  Read it again and let's discuss.

The Catholic and Protestant Churches (that most Germans belonged to) supported Hitler (well, he persecuted the Catholics but he eventually failed in that regard so they signed an accords for religious tolerance towards the Catholics) in the sense that they would rather have him than the previous government and, therefore, supported his regime* between WWI and WWII.  I assume the LDS did the same.  Like, I said, hindsight is 20/20.

* Let me qualify this - the word "supported" is limited when a Church is not involved in political activism (the difference between the Catholics and the LDS in that era).  Supported in this sense would simply mean, did not issue a dissent or disavowal.  So yeah, that would be a difference in context.

Edited August 16, 2017 by anatess2

[Anddenex]

Here is further fun from this individual (who provided the last statement), "Also, trying to make other cultures believe your religion is like How to Be a White Supremacist 101. It's literally white people going to other cultures and saying "your religion is dumb and you're going to hell, let me save you because I know better than you."

[anatess2]

7 minutes ago, Anddenex said:

Here is further fun from this individual (who provided the last statement), "Also, trying to make other cultures believe your religion is like How to Be a White Supremacist 101. It's literally white people going to other cultures and saying "your religion is dumb and you're going to hell, let me save you because I know better than you."

He's talking about the LDS Church?  Is he LDS?  Doesn't he know we don't teach non-LDS people are going to Hell?  You sure he wasn't talking about Catholics?

[Anddenex]

Just now, anatess2 said:

He's talking about the LDS Church?  Is he LDS?  Doesn't he know we don't teach non-LDS people are going to Hell?  You sure he wasn't talking about Catholics?

I know it sounds crazy, but this individual is talking about LDS (Mormon Church). The best part is the individual saying "It's literally white people going to other cultures..." I served with quite a few Latino missionaries. I guess Latino is the new white. My dear Latino members, you are no longer "Latino" if you serve a mission. You are now "literally" a white person.

 

[Guest]

I am finding it difficult to reconcile some of these statements when I read of a first hand account of conditions in Europe during WWII under the Nazis.

https://www.lds.org/ensign/2003/02/latter-day-saint-voices?lang=eng

Quote

Our family also quietly held Latter-day Saint services each Sunday in this same attic. The German occupation forces had forbidden Latter-day Saint meetings because they considered the Church to be an American institution.

So, we were complicit?  We benefitted?

[Guest MormonGator]

@Anddenex, I want to be your FB friend just to watch this conversation. After that. feel free to block me again. 

[Anddenex]

1 minute ago, Carborendum said:

I am finding it difficult to reconcile some of these statements when I read of a first hand account of conditions in Europe during WWII under the Nazis.

https://www.lds.org/ensign/2003/02/latter-day-saint-voices?lang=eng

So, we were complicit?  We benefitted?

From what I have gathered from this individual's posts, is that they are likening the whole Church to single members who did support and benefit from the regime.

[Anddenex]

Just now, MormonGator said:

@Anddenex, I want to be your FB friend just to watch this conversation. After that. feel free to block me again. 

Send me personal message of name and I will send the invite, and I won't block you until you piss me off --   I have stopped the conversation after this last statement she shared.

I mean she even brought out Helmuth Hübener, and was like after reading his story you know the Church was complicit with Nazis Germany.

[anatess2]

1 minute ago, Anddenex said:

I know it sounds crazy, but this individual is talking about LDS (Mormon Church). The best part is the individual saying "It's literally white people going to other cultures..." I served with quite a few Latino missionaries. I guess Latino is the new white. My dear Latino members, you are no longer "Latino" if you serve a mission. You are now "literally" a white person.

 

Show him this picture.  It's the MTC in the Philippines.  2 BIG buildings.  Full of Filipino missionaries.  There's no way he can label Filipinos as whites.  No way.  I have half-white children and nobody would believe anybody who says they're white.

[Anddenex]

3 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Show him this picture.  It's the MTC in the Philippines.  2 BIG buildings.  Full of Filipino missionaries.  There's no way he can label Filipinos as whites.  No way.  I have half-white children and nobody would believe anybody who says they're white.

I actually copied the temple list from Neuro (just the list) and then that is when the individual came back saying our missionary work is White Supremacist 101. Doh!

[anatess2]

Just now, Anddenex said:

I actually copied the temple list from Neuro (just the list) and then that is when the individual came back saying our missionary work is White Supremacist 101. Doh!

Well, people like that are better left alone to stew in their own racism.

[Anddenex]

Just now, anatess2 said:

Well, people like that are better left alone to stew in their own racism.

True, after this comment, I haven't responded back.

[anatess2]

6 minutes ago, Anddenex said:

True, after this comment, I haven't responded back.

My kids actually taught me this during the campaign season.  They said, there are provocateurs on both sides.  They have no intention of engaging in discussion.  They simply say things to get a rise out of anyone.  Don't feed the trolls.  There are also "team players" on both sides.  They have no intention of engaging in discussion.  They simply play team sports with the topic and do offense and defense for their side twisting facts to benefit their team.  Don't feed the partisans.  The trick is to figure out what kind of discussion you're going to end up in and engage when it is a real discussion.  And yes, the major News Networks - are partisans.

 

Edited August 16, 2017 by anatess2

[Guest]

I heard that Mormons had a real tense relationship with Nazis in Nazi Germany.  

For example, the Nazis stormed meetinghouses and burned hymnbooks for references to "Israel".  

I am also sure the Church's reputation as an American religion did not play well in Nazi Germany.

Local German Mormons were also cut off from the rest of the Church due to the war.

So if anything, German Mormons were trying their best to survive an insane situation which they had no power over and were trying to avoid being sent to concentration camps like so many others.   I bet they felt like they were on the knife's edge a lot.

[Anddenex]

1 minute ago, anatess2 said:

My kids actually taught me this during the campaign season.  They said, there are provocateurs on both sides.  They have no intention of engaging in discussion.  They simply say things to get a rise out of anyone.  Don't feed the trolls.  There are also "team players" on both sides.  They have no intention of engaging in discussion.  They simply play team sports with the topic and do offense and defense for their side twisting facts to benefit.  Don't feed the partisans.  And yes, the major News Networks - are partisans.

 

True, I must admit though, I wasn't necessarily kind in my response. I don't mind if people don't like the Church. Just don't spread falsehoods, and we are OK.

[Anddenex]

Just now, DoctorLemon said:

I heard that Mormons had a real tense relationship with Nazis in Nazi Germany.  

For example, the Nazis stormed meetinghouses and burned hymnbooks for references to "Israel".  

I am also sure the Church's reputation as an American religion did not play well in Nazi Germany.

Local German Mormons were also cut off from the rest of the Church due to the war.

So if anything, German Mormons were trying their best to survive an insane situation which they had no power over and were trying to avoid being sent to concentration camps like so many others.   I bet they felt like they were on the knife's edge a lot.

Exactly!

[person0]

15 minutes ago, Anddenex said:

Exactly!

This is what your response looks like on the activity feed:

     Hilarious!

[Anddenex]

1 minute ago, person0 said:

This is what your response looks like on the activity feed:

     Hilarious!

Oh my! Hahaha! I am keeping that just for kicks!

[Snigmorder]

MormonThink thinks Joseph Smith's night vision with Moroni is refuted by the height of his bedroom ceiling.

If an anti mormon ever makes a claim about the church, hound them until they fork over the source. Because anti-Mormons are not privy to new or secret information. All of it is known by both the Mormons and antis and they should not be allowed to get away with their folktales.

Edited August 16, 2017 by Snigmorder

[JohnsonJones]

When I first saw this, I felt I knew what they were referring to.  I believe this individual is probably referring to an unfortunate event in which, yes, the LDS church did side with the Nazi's against it's own.  They are probably referring to Helmuth Hubener.  I do not believe in hiding history, or ignoring that it occurred.  His is a story that one can read to hurt their testimony, or build it up.  It is one that has made some doubt the LDS church because of what they did to him. 

He is a shining example of what type of leader the LDS church raises when it utilizes the Scouting program, and the type of individual which should be an inspiration.

I'll summarize his story below.

He was original in the Scouting program until the Nazi's took over and forced the youth to join the Hitler Youth.  Helmeth found that many things that were being taught or done did not seem to be congruent with his LDS upbringing, nor the things that he had learned as a young man.  He was not alone in this.  There were several members that felt this way.

However, the LDS church's policy has always been one more of neutrality rather than opposition to whatever government is in power or not in power.  In this light, Heber J. Grant recommended LDS members to remain in Germany, to try to cooperate when needed with the appropriate authorities, and to not cause trouble.  Helmeth, did not follow this counsel.  In this light, however, the LDS church is seen as one of the organizations that cooperated with Nazi Germany at that time, and unlike other religions which were persecuted fiercely, avoided much of the persecution that others suffered.  They are also not seen as standing up for what was good or right against a tyrannical government.

That said, history can be unkind to those it leaves in it's wakes in how it sees the LDS church in this situation.  Heber J. Grant and the Brethren may not have realized what was happening in Germany (and almost no one did in regards to the death camps, even many Germans, until after the War, and for many that did find out, they didn't find out till near the end of the war anyways).  We cannot know how the church would have responded if they knew.  Perhaps it would have been the same.  As I said, though seen as cooperative with the Nazi Government (or as much as any organization that wasn't run by them, which meant that they still suffered somewhat), the saints did NOT suffer as grieviously as others.  In this light, perhaps it was revelation to preserve the saints as much as possible and leave the church on firm ground that had this revelation come forth.  Because of this, the church eventually was able to build temples and other things for those many saints that remained, and include us getting an apostle from there today.  We may not have had that if the church had some other policy in place.

I don't know, but the rest of the story of Helmuth is tragic.

Helmuth supposedly lived in a ward where around 3/4 or more of the pro-Nazi supporters who were also LDS went to church.  The leader of the church was one of those. 

Helmuth had gotten access to a radio via some friends, and could hear the BBC over it.  He found out that the stories the German government told them, and what was told elsewhere were vastly different.  With his background, he knew he could think critically.  He did not have to follow blindly.  This is something LDS leaders have taught us for decades, to find out for ourselves what the truth is rather than relying on the words of others.  He went forth and decided that what was happening was wrong and wrote pamphlets trying to expose the truth.

He was captured and placed in prison by the German government/Nazi's.  Just listening to those broadcasts was considered treason (be glad we live in the US where we can listen to what we wish).  Distributing pamphlets critical of the Nazi's was even worse.  He was scheduled to be executed.  He was stripped of being a citizen and human rights. 

During this time, Helmuth was promptly excommunicated by his church leader.  In prison, he suffered from exposure to the cold elements without much comfort except the cold floor.  He had little food.  Excommunicated from the church with all that this meant, on the verge of being Excommunicated, he exclaimed "know that God lives and He will be the Just Judge in this matter… I look forward to seeing you in a better world!"

Helmuth knew that the man who excommunicated him was very pro-Nazi, the very group he opposed.  He still remained true to the faith, and had a testimony, despite all that seemed against it, of the truth and the gospel.  He was beheaded, I think he is the youngest one accused of treason and being an enemy sympathizer that was killed for that at the age of 17.

The LDS church came in four years later and said that the excommunication was done through improper channels.  Helmuth never had the ability to attend the church court that excommunicated him, and it never was assembled at a higher level than the ward.  That said, the LDS church did not nullify the excommunication either.  Instead, they had him rebaptized, and his ordinances done.

Because of this, it has angered people.  Some feel that this indicates that the LDS church cannot be true because of their choices in the matter of Helmuth Hubener.  I think this stance dishonors his memory.  If anything, I personally believe (so this is a personal belief, not fact, or anything like that) that Helmuth would rather people know he still had a testimony, that he knew how the excommunication should have been done, and what his true stance with his Lord in heaven was.  I feel he would rather people join the LDS church and remain faithful, even when all other abandon them like Job, and keep their testimony of the truthfulness of the gospel.  I think he recognized the difference between the gospel and what it teaches, and that of the choices of men, even leaders in the church occasionally...and that there IS a difference, especially with local leaders occasionally.

I think Helmuth is an example of what we should be, and the testimony each of us needs to strive to attain.  I see the story of Helmuth Hebener as someone who kept their testimony, even when all else was lost.  He was one that took to heart that each of us needs to find and discern the truth, and choose the right no matter what the worldy cost, with the guarantee that our rewards in heaven will be given us and that the Lord is just, even if those of the world are not.  I think his testimony at the end, that God lives and is the Just Judge, shows us that we each can have a testimony that transcends just the church and it's organization here on earth, but one that is of the true gospel of the Lord.

As I said, I think this is probably the story and ideas which were referred to, and I can see how it can be taken the way it was expressed.  I also see how it can also be a shining testimony to each of us to hold strong and NEVER lose the faith in the Lord and his path.