Mike

On Removing Confederate Statues

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I'm thinking on the issue of the propriety of removing Confederate statues. I see a difference between a statue of General Lee on a battlefield at Gettysburg, for example, and a statue of him in a public square in Charlottesville. Lee, himself, was not in favor of such statues at all, or so I've read. 

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I'm somewhat in the middle of this issue. First of all, nothing should be touched on any battlefield or historical site. It's important to remember our history, especially the painful parts. But I really don't like the Confederacy. (I almost got a mass beat down in a Tennessee high school room once when I was young. I said that firing on Fort Sumter was treason against the United States lol☺.) I still hold to that view, so if a city removes a statue in a non historic spot, and does it according to law (no vigilante mobs) I'm ok with it.

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4 hours ago, Midwest LDS said:

I'm somewhat in the middle of this issue. First of all, nothing should be touched on any battlefield or historical site. It's important to remember our history, especially the painful parts. But I really don't like the Confederacy. (I almost got a mass beat down in a Tennessee high school room once when I was young. I said that firing on Fort Sumter was treason against the United States lol☺.) I still hold to that view, so if a city removes a statue in a non historic spot, and does it according to law (no vigilante mobs) I'm ok with it.

I know what you mean, and I agree that battlefield and historical sites are very different from sites where a statue may have been erected at the behest of a small group of people for other than historical values. 

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On 8/18/2017 at 5:03 PM, MormonGator said:

We should get rid of statues of Washington and Jefferson. They were slaveholders, after all. 

If that was meant to be tongue-in-cheek, it's now a serious discussion in Chicago, and the mainstream media has commentators making this very demand (the time for recommendations has long passed!).

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@prisonchaplainThis is a pernicious problem in this country. We are plagued by a tide of presentism. Judging the past by the standards of the 21st century. It makes me ill to think of heroes like Washington and Jeffferson lumped in with Confederates. They built this nation. Did they have problems? Of course they did (Jefferson far more than Washington in my opinion) but without them we would never have had a nation that has eliminated so many of the very evils decried by the left. What's next? Removing statues of Lincoln because his views were racist by our standards even though without his heroic sacrifices getting the 13th Amendment passed slavery wouldn't have been abolished? Unfortunately I won't be suprised when it happens. But I believe I won't be alone in defending our founders and other heroes and hopefully many others will as well.

Edited by Midwest LDS

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10 hours ago, prisonchaplain said:

If that was meant to be tongue-in-cheek, it's now a serious discussion in Chicago, and the mainstream media has commentators making this very demand (the time for recommendations has long passed!).

Tongue in cheek. It's the latest radical chic pushed by northern elitists so they can feel better about themselves and pat each other on the back at cocktail parties.

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Random thoughts:

1. I like the way Warner Brothers does it:
zmbuzmtwiv8n5h96hbvn.jpg

2. I can respect what Dr. Peterson has to say about the issue:
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeterson/2017/08/robert-e-lee-tria.html

3. One of the things that makes ISIS evil and horrible, is their systematic destruction of historical monuments/archetecture
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/2015/09/150901-isis-destruction-looting-ancient-sites-iraq-syria-archaeology/

4. No matter what you or I think about these confederate statues, are we a nation of laws or aren't we?  Should these things come down legally only?  Or is it really ok to do a "my mob is bigger/better armed than yours" thing and take them down via the mob rule?  Hey folks worried about Trump and the alt-Right - the left side of things is being more violent and destroying more property than ever before!
http://nypost.com/2017/08/15/officials-respond-after-mob-tears-down-confederate-statue/
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/protesters-damage-confederate-statue-in-atlanta/
 

Edited by NeuroTypical

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@NeuroTypical I absolutely agree. Any statue that comes down should only be brought down according to law. If a mob tears one down it should be replaced and the mob punished. I also despise what ISIS has done with historical artifacts in the Middle East, I consider it cultural barbarism. I somewhat disagree with Dr. Peterson. The Confederacy is not equivalent to Nazi Germany or Stalinust Russia. But their govermental system did not work (just like the Articles of Confederation didn't work) and they tried to destroy our country by ripping it apart so it's hard for me to see them in a positive light.

Edited by Midwest LDS
Clarification

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I think you have to take the statues one at a time.  Who does the statue purport to commemorate?  Under what circumstances was it erected?  What kind of setting is it in?  Does the statue's presentation demonstrably contradict the reasons for which it was ostensibly placed?  (E.g. Nathan Bedford Forrest was a bloodthirsty SOB who I understand had a rather remarkable change of heart late in life.  Does his statue show him as a Confederate soldier, or in KKK robes, or in civilian dress as an aged conciliator?)

Edited by Just_A_Guy

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I would suggest, firstly whenever possible instead of pulling down a monument, raise another monument next it with a balancing figure or person.

Secondly instead of destroying the monuments, they should be moved to a memorial  park dedicated to removed monuments. There they have a plaque explaining why they were put up and why they were removed. Like a cemetery for no longer wanted monuments.

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Just a thought experiment, not fishing for any responses.

how would we feel as saints in the following scenarios?

1) A statue of Judas in Jerusalem, even near golgatha.

2) Bust/statue of governor Boggs in the Missouri capital building honoring his great service.

3) Statues of Thomas C. sharp, Mark Aldrich, William N. Grover, Jacob C. David and Levi Williams were erect across from Libirty Jail. Or anywhere else.

4) Statue of Waren Jeffs across the street from the SLC temple.

I know these examples aren't all equal to historical monuments of confederacy leaders or statues of famous slave owners, but to some, those statues can spark the same reaction as statues of the murderers of Joseph Smith.

 

Additional experiments:

1) A statue of Hitler... anywhere

2) Memorial to the Taliban

3) Names of terrorists that struck the US etched on a long wall.

all this is history... do we erect memorials for them? If not, should we keep the memorials for people that are known for supporting slavery or other evil things. This of course would be based in secular opinion so if you support tearing down these memorials you may also be supporting tearing down religious memorials in the future if that is the way the world goes.

Edited by Fether

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Hitler monument done right - the story from http://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeterson/2017/08/beyond-repulsive-far-beyond.html

Quite a few years ago now, I was finally able to visit Braunau-am-Inn, the small town in Austria where Adolf Hitler was born and where his childhood home still stands.  I was curious to know whether the town even officially recognized its connection to Hitler and, if so, how.  When we reached the home, I was delighted at what I found:  Standing in front of the small house is a memorial stone — taken from the quarry at the Mauthausen concentration camp where my father participated in the liberation as a sergeant in the Eleventh Armored Division, part of General Patton’s Third Army — on which there was no mention of Hitler whatsoever.  Instead, this is how the inscription read:  “For peace, freedom and democracy: Millions of the dead admonish us: Never again fascism.”

800px-Mahnstein.jpg

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23 hours ago, prisonchaplain said:

If that was meant to be tongue-in-cheek, it's now a serious discussion in Chicago, and the mainstream media has commentators making this very demand (the time for recommendations has long passed!).

I don't have a problem with serious discussions on any topic. I'm pleased that most of the participants on this thread are making it a serious discussion. The good thing about serious discussions is that bad ideas are held up in the light with better arguments. And even bad ideas that are thought to be good can be examined and re-examined by honest opponents, and truth will out. I look forward to other commentators making equally serious counter-arguments, and if those arguments don't come from commentators I'm confident they'll come in any event. 

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@Mike I hope your optimism is justified. The discussions I've heard (not on this site) are frightening. It's almost the same atmosphere is the Khmer Rouge or Red Guard brought. Disagree with removing racist statues? You must be a racist and a hater. Hate will not be tolerated. Free speech? Hey, hate speech is not free speech. Even the ACLU is caving on this. The mood and rhetoric are so enraged, I fear whether level-headed discourse will even be allowed, much less heeded.

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@Fether perhaps unintentionally, you did the same as the statue--destroyers. You started with a list of clear bad guys, and then asked, "Does anyone who supported slavery deserve a memorial or statue?" That's how we got from removing Confederate generals in public squares to the talk of removing Jefferson and Washington.  Slippery slope, but we reached the bottom in about a day--or in this case, within one post.

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I absolutely agree with @prisonchaplain. It's one thing to disagree on the Confederacy in a polite and friendly way, quite another to shout people down with cries of racism. Incidentally I hope I haven't offended. I have many friends and family who disagree with my view on this issue and I have nothing but respect for them. Including some of the people in that room that I jokingly said would beat me up (sometimes it's hard to convey humor and good vibes on the internet☺)

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6 hours ago, prisonchaplain said:

@Fether perhaps unintentionally, you did the same as the statue--destroyers. You started with a list of clear bad guys, and then asked, "Does anyone who supported slavery deserve a memorial or statue?" That's how we got from removing Confederate generals in public squares to the talk of removing Jefferson and Washington.  Slippery slope, but we reached the bottom in about a day--or in this case, within one post.

I was intentionally making other scenarios where we as saints may feel more inclined to remove statues. The topic of confederation statues doesn't really "shake me in my boots" so, even if it was just for me, I decided to make scenarios that did shake me in my boots.

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On 8/19/2017 at 9:26 PM, prisonchaplain said:

If that was meant to be tongue-in-cheek, it's now a serious discussion in Chicago, and the mainstream media has commentators making this very demand (the time for recommendations has long passed!).

Well it's a discussion that was started by Pres. Trump, when he equivocated and asked the question, are Washington and Jesfferson next. (Further proof, in my book, that the man is an idiot and doesn't understand his office or the oath he took when sworn in.)

Edited by Blueskye2

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Robert E. Lee stands in Virginia because he is a Virginian.  He is a "hometown hero".  Lee, of course, did not just fight for the Confederacy.  He also led the fight against Mexico.  Therefore, without Lee, Texas would be Mexico.  Lee also was instrumental in bringing the Confederate States back together with the Union after the Civil War.  Lee served with utmost honor and display of leadership for 32 years, only 3 of which was spent in the Civil War.

Now, this issue about not honoring Confederate soldiers - that is silly when the Union made peace with the Confederacy even honoring the Confederate soldiers with Veteran's Pay and Benefits.  So, all this goopla about the Confederacy is just another Marxist method of collectivism... another thing to create more victimhood whiners that will rise up against whatever manufactured thing they want to rise up against.

Edited by anatess2

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3 minutes ago, Blueskye2 said:

Well it's a discussion that was started by Pres. Trump, when he equivocated and asked the question, are Washington and Jesfferson next. (Further proof, in my book, that the man is an idiot and doesn't understand his office or the oath he took when sworn in.)

Partisan, much?

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36 minutes ago, Blueskye2 said:

Well it's a discussion that was started by Pres. Trump, when he equivocated and asked the question, are Washington and Jesfferson next. (Further proof, in my book, that the man is an idiot and doesn't understand his office or the oath he took when sworn in.)

Is that why you never wear the "Make America Great Again Hat" I sent you? Ingrate....

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