Yo, parents of children attending some variation of institutionalized schooling and anyone else with an opinion

[Backroads]

Reading logs and homework. Do you actually like these things, like one but not the other, or would prefer to see them fade away into obscurity?

Philosophically, I don't much care for them and I am finally in a position where I could very well not assign them. But... I have serious concerns some parents would flip out if there were no homework/reading logs.

[Jane_Doe]

In my experience: they're pretty worthless.

People who are going to read with their kid are going to read with the kid.  Those that aren't going to read will just lie and sign the log.

[Vort]

Meaningful homework is fine. In my experience, very little public-school homework is meaningful. To be blunt, the classes are so easy that homework simply is not required. Which is fine; I don't expect junior high school to be like going to college. But why give homework when it's just busywork and makework?

[SpiritDragon]

@Backroads My children aren't old enough for the education system yet, and I'm hoping to homeschool when the time comes, but I'll still share my opinion for what it's worth. The idea of reading logs is blech! I remember having these silly reading railroads and mountain climbing bulletin boards that were supposed to motivate us to read when I was in elementary school and I was perfectly content to let the train or mountaineer with my name on it stay at the station or at base camp, although I was a very good student and a capable reader, I didn't see a purpose in it. It wasn't until I was introduced to reading about history and science instead of stories that reading served a purpose for me, I'd much rather just watch a story in video form. Anyway I digress... on the one hand if it helps me to take an active part in my child's education then I'd support both reading logs and homework, but on the other I might just wonder if too much time is being wasted at school dealing with rabble-rousers and social justice indoctrination while the real education is still being left for me to do at home - perhaps this is why I lean toward homeschool in the first place.

Edit: I hated homework as a kid, but dutifully did it before going to play - not because my parents enforced such a rule, but because I didn't want bedtime to come and realize I still had homework to do when I just wanted sleep.

Edited August 24, 2017 by SpiritDragon

[JoCa]

I'm in favor of both reading logs and homework; it doesn't need to be much-i.e. for younger grades half hours worth of work or so.  But IMO the most important part of homework and reading logs isn't what they learn directly from the piece of paper or from the book they read.

The most important thing they learn from it is responsibility, as in I have an assignment and it is due on x day.  In order to turn it in properly I need to work on it at this time.  It teaches self-reliance, independence and an understanding of the consequences of procrastination (you get a bad grade).  Those things are in really short supply in today's world and children need to learn more of it.

If I did homework, I would make the above clear to parents, i.e. under no circumstances should a parent do the homework for the child.  If I suspected a parent "helped" with a homework assignment, the student would get a 0.  The objective of homework isn't to reinforce that 2+2=4; it's to teach the kids so that later in life when they have a job they can do their homework assignments at work or at home with minimal problems.

[Jojo Bags]

1 hour ago, Backroads said:

Reading logs and homework. Do you actually like these things, like one but not the other, or would prefer to see them fade away into obscurity?

Philosophically, I don't much care for them and I am finally in a position where I could very well not assign them. But... I have serious concerns some parents would flip out if there were no homework/reading logs.

I home schooled most of my kids instead of putting them into the public socialist indoctrination system.  I wanted my children to be free and able to think for themselves, not be told what to think, how to think, and be good little mindless sheeple.  This isn't a criticism of you, but of all public school systems.

[Backroads]

50 minutes ago, JoCa said:

I'm in favor of both reading logs and homework; it doesn't need to be much-i.e. for younger grades half hours worth of work or so.  But IMO the most important part of homework and reading logs isn't what they learn directly from the piece of paper or from the book they read.

The most important thing they learn from it is responsibility, as in I have an assignment and it is due on x day.  In order to turn it in properly I need to work on it at this time.  It teaches self-reliance, independence and an understanding of the consequences of procrastination (you get a bad grade).  Those things are in really short supply in today's world and children need to learn more of it.

If I did homework, I would make the above clear to parents, i.e. under no circumstances should a parent do the homework for the child.  If I suspected a parent "helped" with a homework assignment, the student would get a 0.  The objective of homework isn't to reinforce that 2+2=4; it's to teach the kids so that later in life when they have a job they can do their homework assignments at work or at home with minimal problems.

And this is one area where I have a philosophical disagreement. While I'm up for teaching responsibility, I don't know if busywork is the best way to teach it... and at my lower grade level, the amount needed to achieve "I taught significant responsibility!" is time that is best needed for other areas: playtime, family time, reading rather than marking how much you're reading. I figure, one day they'll get to a higher education level with more intricacy where homework could be more necessary and significant, and I expect the rest of life to this point had taught them sufficiently to partake in such responsibility. 

If life is decent, the responsibility will come up. 

[Backroads]

My thoughts are, I didn't have homework until jr. high and I don't think anyone cared one fig how many minutes I did or did not read and I think I turned out alright. 

[anatess2]

In the Montessori method - which I'm a very big proponent of - there's no such thing as Homework nor Reading logs.  Nor tests/quizzes for that matter.  Proficiency assessments are not done through tests.  They're done by task accomplishments.

[prisonchaplain]

My children's schools typically score 2-4 on the Great Schools scale. However, they have honors programs--specifically Cambridge (similar to International Baccalaureate). I still remember the 7th grade Algebra teacher's speech to us parents.  Your 12-year old is taking high school algebra. S/he might get scared. You might get scared. Sometimes even I get scared, teaching them. It's okay to be scared.

Sometimes the best education can be buried inside pretty Spartan looking environments.

[seashmore]

Moderation in all things. Nature of society today is that some kids need to learn how to learn at home, or at least do something other than search to be entertained. Light homework can help them with that while also giving them a sense of accomplishment. I'm talking like a few worksheets a week, not one in every subject every night. Heavy homework is wearisome.

[anatess2]

11 hours ago, Backroads said:

My thoughts are, I didn't have homework until jr. high and I don't think anyone cared one fig how many minutes I did or did not read and I think I turned out alright. 

Child-led learning is better, in my own opinion.  You learn and accomplish tasks because you desire to - doesn't matter where that learning happens, home/school/vacation/wherever.  So, the objective of a teacher is to bring out that desire for learning and direct that desire to worthwhile things giving the student the proper tools to support that desire.  Then assigned homework becomes unnecessary because when a child desires to learn something, he'll want to learn it wherever he is.  Let's take reading for example.  A teacher who brings out the desire for reading within a student wouldn't need reading logs.  The student will be excited to read and tell the teacher about what he read without forcing the kid to read X amount of chapters, take down notes every chapter so I can verify that you read the thing.  That doesn't really cultivate a desire within the child to read.  It just becomes another dreaded chore.

Edited August 24, 2017 by anatess2

[Guest]

Anyone else with an opinion...

Quote

A doctor tells his patient he has 6 months to live.

"Well, I'd like a second opinion, if you don't mind."

"Ok, you're ugly too."

Yuk, yuk, yuk...

[anatess2]

46 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Anyone else with an opinion...

Yuk, yuk, yuk...

I think @Backroads is gonna ban you from kim chee for life for this one.

[Guest]

Just now, anatess2 said:

I think @Backroads is gonna ban you from kim chee for life for this one.

Oh!  Them's fightin' words.

[anatess2]

2 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Oh!  Them's fightin' words.

[JoCa]

14 hours ago, Backroads said:

While I'm up for teaching responsibility, I don't know if busywork is the best way to teach it... and at my lower grade level, the amount needed to achieve "I taught significant responsibility!" is time that is best needed for other areas: playtime, family time, reading rather than marking how much you're reading. I figure, one day they'll get to a higher education level with more intricacy where homework could be more necessary and significant, and I expect the rest of life to this point had taught them sufficiently to partake in such responsibility. 

If life is decent, the responsibility will come up. 

But what exactly is "busywork"?  Quite frankly, most kids (in the younger grades) have no clue what "busywork" means or even what it is.  My kids dust the baseboards in the house when they are little.  Is that "busywork"?  It's a nice to have, but does it need to be done, no-I've never dusted the baseboards myself.  So why assign it? B/c it gives the child a responsibility.

Busywork is write this same exact sentence 50 times.  I completely agree playtime is one of the best things a child can do, is just go play!  But they still need to learn how to be responsible and homework teaches them that.  I'm not a fan of lots of homework having 2+ hours of homework a night when they go to school for 7 hours is not cool.  But for lower grades, what is the big deal with 15-30 min. of homework each night? 

IMO, it's b/c adults are too lazy and don't want the hassle and stress of telling kids to hand in their assignments and then grading their assignments. Then when they give a student a 0 some idiot parent will complain about "how dare you give my little johnny a 0, he worked so hard on this assignment".  It's much easier to just say homework is "busywork".  Homework is first and foremost about teaching responsibility and if they don't learn it when they are young . . .well good luck teaching it when they are older!

As a society we need to be tougher on kids, not nasty or brutish, but expect and demand more out of them and then hold them accountable when they don't do what they should do. Otherwise . . .well otherwise you get the current generation of (casting with a broad brush) wimps and snowflakes.

[anatess2]

26 minutes ago, JoCa said:

But what exactly is "busywork"?  Quite frankly, most kids (in the younger grades) have no clue what "busywork" means or even what it is.  My kids dust the baseboards in the house when they are little.  Is that "busywork"?  It's a nice to have, but does it need to be done, no-I've never dusted the baseboards myself.  So why assign it? B/c it gives the child a responsibility.

Busywork is write this same exact sentence 50 times.  I completely agree playtime is one of the best things a child can do, is just go play!  But they still need to learn how to be responsible and homework teaches them that.  I'm not a fan of lots of homework having 2+ hours of homework a night when they go to school for 7 hours is not cool.  But for lower grades, what is the big deal with 15-30 min. of homework each night? 

IMO, it's b/c adults are too lazy and don't want the hassle and stress of telling kids to hand in their assignments and then grading their assignments. Then when they give a student a 0 some idiot parent will complain about "how dare you give my little johnny a 0, he worked so hard on this assignment".  It's much easier to just say homework is "busywork".  Homework is first and foremost about teaching responsibility and if they don't learn it when they are young . . .well good luck teaching it when they are older!

As a society we need to be tougher on kids, not nasty or brutish, but expect and demand more out of them and then hold them accountable when they don't do what they should do. Otherwise . . .well otherwise you get the current generation of (casting with a broad brush) wimps and snowflakes.

It's not the teacher's job to teach the child at home.  It is the PARENT's job.  If the parent wants to give their child math exercises instead of dusting the baseboards, he is more than welcome to it.  Other parents may prefer that the time be spent letting the child catch a tree frog and figure out why their feet stick to the window.  Homework should only be assigned if the teacher could not complete the tasks during class period.

If your child is growing up to be a snowflake wimp, don't blame your child's teacher.  Blame yourself.

Edited August 24, 2017 by anatess2

[Guest]

21 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

It's not the teacher's job to teach the child at home.  It is the PARENT's job. 

Yes, it is.

[Backroads]

3 hours ago, JoCa said:

But what exactly is "busywork"?  Quite frankly, most kids (in the younger grades) have no clue what "busywork" means or even what it is.  My kids dust the baseboards in the house when they are little.  Is that "busywork"?  It's a nice to have, but does it need to be done, no-I've never dusted the baseboards myself.  So why assign it? B/c it gives the child a responsibility.

Busywork is write this same exact sentence 50 times.  I completely agree playtime is one of the best things a child can do, is just go play!  But they still need to learn how to be responsible and homework teaches them that.  I'm not a fan of lots of homework having 2+ hours of homework a night when they go to school for 7 hours is not cool.  But for lower grades, what is the big deal with 15-30 min. of homework each night? 

IMO, it's b/c adults are too lazy and don't want the hassle and stress of telling kids to hand in their assignments and then grading their assignments. Then when they give a student a 0 some idiot parent will complain about "how dare you give my little johnny a 0, he worked so hard on this assignment".  It's much easier to just say homework is "busywork".  Homework is first and foremost about teaching responsibility and if they don't learn it when they are young . . .well good luck teaching it when they are older!

As a society we need to be tougher on kids, not nasty or brutish, but expect and demand more out of them and then hold them accountable when they don't do what they should do. Otherwise . . .well otherwise you get the current generation of (casting with a broad brush) wimps and snowflakes.

But is homework the ultimate way to teach responsibility? I can teach time management, planning, turning things in quite naturally without relying on homework. What makes homework superior? (And this is a serious question as I do respect your opinion and am considering it for my homework policy). What's the data like for failure to handle homework later in life if they don't get it in lower grades?

And yeah, I am an adult who doesn't want to have to grade extra assignments. I like to manage my time and make the most of it and would prefer to focus on assessments and tasks they perform in class.

 

[Vort]

My observation is that most school time is wasted time, as far as learning school subjects goes. I also observe that public schools have become de facto child care facilities. We're not talking about them acting in loco parentis in the traditional sense, we're talking about them performing child care activities for the parents.

The further things go down this path, the better homeschooling looks to me.

[JoCa]

3 hours ago, anatess2 said:

It's not the teacher's job to teach the child at home.  It is the PARENT's job.  If the parent wants to give their child math exercises instead of dusting the baseboards, he is more than welcome to it.  Other parents may prefer that the time be spent letting the child catch a tree frog and figure out why their feet stick to the window.  Homework should only be assigned if the teacher could not complete the tasks during class period.

If your child is growing up to be a snowflake wimp, don't blame your child's teacher.  Blame yourself.

I agree with most of what you say.  Parent's job is to teach the 3 Rs, Respect, Resourcefullness, Responsiblity (R's), teacher's are to teach the three Rs of reading, 'riting and 'rthemetic (r's).

But let's not kid ourselves, they go hand-in-hand.  Teachers should be demanding to reinforce those lessons that are primarily taught at home.  It's not the teacher's job to teach the three R's but to teach the three r's; however they should be augmenting and helping out. Just like parents should be augmenting and helping teachers in teaching the three r's.

I completely agree, kids need more play time-but they also need homework.

[JoCa]

2 minutes ago, Vort said:

My observation is that most school time is wasted time, as far as learning school subjects goes. I also observe that public schools have become de facto child care facilities. We're not talking about them acting in loco parentis in the traditional sense, we're talking about them performing child care activities for the parents.

The further things go down this path, the better homeschooling looks to me.

Vort, bingo, man, bingo.

I'll amend that to de facto child care leftist political indoctrination centers.

[Vort]

3 minutes ago, JoCa said:

I agree with most of what you say.  Parent's job is to teach the 3 Rs, Respect, Resourcefullness, Responsiblity (R's), teacher's are to teach the three Rs of reading, 'riting and 'rthemetic (r's).

It is the parents' responsibility to teach the "three Rs" of school, as well. Public schools are, or should be, an assistant to the parents' educational efforts. I realize that most people don't view it that way, but to be blunt, most people are wrong.

(No offense intended to you, JoCa.)

Edited August 24, 2017 by Vort

[JoCa]

17 minutes ago, Backroads said:

But is homework the ultimate way to teach responsibility? I can teach time management, planning, turning things in quite naturally without relying on homework. What makes homework superior? (And this is a serious question as I do respect your opinion and am considering it for my homework policy). What's the data like for failure to handle homework later in life if they don't get it in lower grades?

And yeah, I am an adult who doesn't want to have to grade extra assignments. I like to manage my time and make the most of it and would prefer to focus on assessments and tasks they perform in class.

 

I appreciate the ask and (I hope) I didn't mean to insult with my comment-just a recognition that it's easier not to do homework.

Yes, you can teach time management in other ways.  But it is one tools that reinforces time management and responsibility-if it's done right!!!

Homework done poorly (kid comes home, parents nag about homework, sit at the dinner table, tell kid to open up books, sits with them and helps them with every question, ensures they get a good grade.  If the child turns in sloppy or unfinished homework the next day, the teacher says "well try again harder next time" or "that's okay". This teaches nothing and in fact is detrimental-i.e. it teaches the child "I as I child do not have to be responsible for myself b/c either someone is going to make me do it or they will let it slide to where it doesn't matter"

Homework done right (kid comes home and has a set time to turn in homework-i.e. you can't work on it past 7pm), parents don't say a word about child's homework. Kid either does it or doesn't do it.  Next day the child either turns it in or doesn't turn it in.  If it's turned in sloppy or not finished child gets a bad grade.  If a period of time goes by where the child consistently turns in sloppy or unfinished work (i.e. at parent teacher conference or quarter grades), parents drop the hammer, restrict privileges, etc.  This teaches responsibility and time management as well as consequences for bad behavior.  That sometimes we can "get away" with bad behavior immediately but the "chickens always come home to roost". This teaches the child that he can choose to do his homework right away or he can procrastinate, if he procrastinates long enough bad things happen (as in time runs out). Longer term projects (i.e. week long homework) reinforces this even more.

Edited August 24, 2017 by JoCa