Eve


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From "Teaching of the Prophet Joseph Smith" pg 220

The great Jehovah contemplated the whole of the events connected with the earth, pertaining to the plan of salvation, before it rolled into existence, or ever “the morning stars sang together” for joy; the past, the present, and the future were and are, with Him, one eternal “now;” He knew of the fall of Adam, the iniquities of the antediluvians, of the depth of iniquity that would be connected with the human family, their weakness and strength, their power and glory, apostasies, their crimes, their righteousness and iniquity; He comprehended the fall of man, and his redemption; He knew the plan of salvation and pointed it out; He was acquainted with the situation of all nations and with their destiny; He ordered all things according to the council of His own will; He knows the situation of both the living and the dead, and has made ample provision for their redemption, according to their several circumstances, and the laws of the kingdom of God, whether in this world, or in the world to come.

Sounds like one plan to me, one that included the fall.

 

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1 hour ago, laronius said:

From "Teaching of the Prophet Joseph Smith" pg 220

The great Jehovah contemplated the whole of the events connected with the earth, pertaining to the plan of salvation, before it rolled into existence, or ever “the morning stars sang together” for joy; the past, the present, and the future were and are, with Him, one eternal “now;” He knew of the fall of Adam, the iniquities of the antediluvians, of the depth of iniquity that would be connected with the human family, their weakness and strength, their power and glory, apostasies, their crimes, their righteousness and iniquity; He comprehended the fall of man, and his redemption; He knew the plan of salvation and pointed it out; He was acquainted with the situation of all nations and with their destiny; He ordered all things according to the council of His own will; He knows the situation of both the living and the dead, and has made ample provision for their redemption, according to their several circumstances, and the laws of the kingdom of God, whether in this world, or in the world to come.

 

Sounds like one plan to me, one that included the fall.

 

I doubt that many LDS commentators would dispute the idea of one plan at it's core. I think the idea of plan A vs B and so on is really just looking at contingencies within the same plan. When it comes to the Fall I think the dilemma that many face (I certainly have) is why God would give a commandment He didn't intend to be kept. The answer is simply that the consequences of the Fall while still needing to happen could have happened in some other way on God's terms. It isn't that the plan was changed, but that fail-safes were put in place so that the plan could always continue to roll forward regardless of how agency was implemented.

When Moses was given the lower law because the people weren't ready to abide the higher, surely God knew all along that the people needed the lesser law, but He still started with the higher law contingent on the agency of His people. They weren't ready, but God didn't need to change plans, He just went forward with The Plan as it was based on the circumstances of man's choices. I don't see the Fall of Adam and Eve much differently than being one outcome of the exercise of agency with which God could work with to bring about his purposes. 

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3 hours ago, SpiritDragon said:

I doubt that many LDS commentators would dispute the idea of one plan at it's core. I think the idea of plan A vs B and so on is really just looking at contingencies within the same plan. When it comes to the Fall I think the dilemma that many face (I certainly have) is why God would give a commandment He didn't intend to be kept. The answer is simply that the consequences of the Fall while still needing to happen could have happened in some other way on God's terms. It isn't that the plan was changed, but that fail-safes were put in place so that the plan could always continue to roll forward regardless of how agency was implemented.

When Moses was given the lower law because the people weren't ready to abide the higher, surely God knew all along that the people needed the lesser law, but He still started with the higher law contingent on the agency of His people. They weren't ready, but God didn't need to change plans, He just went forward with The Plan as it was based on the circumstances of man's choices. I don't see the Fall of Adam and Eve much differently than being one outcome of the exercise of agency with which God could work with to bring about his purposes. 

Sort of like Joseph Smith.  I believe there is a story out there where it was told that if he had failed, there  would simply have been another called in his stead. 

Not that there was one needed...or...for all we know...Joseph Smith was the contingency!

Or, we get things like if Joseph lived so long he would see the Savior's face...and then he died before that point.  Makes one wonder if either one could have happened a different way...if the choices of men were different.

But at the same time, either way, it did not affect the Lord's plan nor his work rolling forth.

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When it comes to plan(s)... lets remember that the plan is for us to come to earth and see if we will obey all of God's commands... Thus us making a choice "IS" the plan. It make no sense that the plan about seeing that choices we make can be derailed by making a choice.

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One thing that bothers me about many of religious stripe – that they claim to believe G-d is just in one breath and then in the same breath claim to believe we all are subject to death (punished) for the sins or transgressions of Adam and Eve.  What bothers me more is when they say – it many lot look to be unjust but we can trust G-d to make it all right at some point.  I can understand that it may appear from our point of view to be unjust because we are missing critical elements from our point of view.  But it is nonsense to be dishonest in our expressions of belief.  If our point of view is missing something – we should be willing to so say and also willing to consider and be open to what we are missing.  But it would seem that some would rather die with a faulty beliefs rather than seek truth.

 

The Traveler

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On 9/13/2017 at 9:10 AM, Traveler said:

 

Really?  How about if all of you in a certain city do not repent you will be destroyed?

 

The Traveler

This addresses God's immutability. God seems to "change His mind", but it the point of view of humans. God's will or purpose is always served.

Often OT stories reveal God's nature, particularly a salvic nature, His  justice and His mercy, which are unchanging. Prayer is a good example, where we may ask God for this or that, but it is always God's purpose that is served. When our prayers are answered positively we didn't change God's mind. In the answers to our prayers, there may be a lot going on, including God's nature is revealed to us.

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13 hours ago, Blueskye2 said:

This addresses God's immutability. God seems to "change His mind", but it the point of view of humans. God's will or purpose is always served.

Often OT stories reveal God's nature, particularly a salvic nature, His  justice and His mercy, which are unchanging. Prayer is a good example, where we may ask God for this or that, but it is always God's purpose that is served. When our prayers are answered positively we didn't change God's mind. In the answers to our prayers, there may be a lot going on, including God's nature is revealed to us.

 

I am a scientist and engineer – I also believe there is a very intelligent G-d that has brought life and order to the universe we live in.  My question for you concerns your inferences of G-d – especially concerning prayers.  Do you believe such things because you have carefully and systematically tested (proven) what you are saying to be true or is it because someone (perhaps at church) told you to believe such things or be damned?  Recalling Paul and his caution to “Prove” all things and hold fast to that which is true.

I am not sure you realize but your point “it is always God's purpose that is served” and then your point “there may be a lot going on” are both ambiguous and contradictory which I do not find to be a very accurate depiction of G-d’s nature which nature I believe is reflected in our universe which is an empirical example of his works and attributes.  

To make sure it is clear – do you believe the purpose of prayer is for us to find answers to our questions or for G-d to accomplish his purposes?  Remember the example Jesus gave of the woman pestering the governor to “change” his mind?

 

The Traveler

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5 hours ago, Traveler said:

 

I am a scientist and engineer – I also believe there is a very intelligent G-d that has brought life and order to the universe we live in.  My question for you concerns your inferences of G-d – especially concerning prayers.  Do you believe such things because you have carefully and systematically tested (proven) what you are saying to be true or is it because someone (perhaps at church) told you to believe such things or be damned?  Recalling Paul and his caution to “Prove” all things and hold fast to that which is true.

I am not sure you realize but your point “it is always God's purpose that is served” and then your point “there may be a lot going on” are both ambiguous and contradictory which I do not find to be a very accurate depiction of G-d’s nature which nature I believe is reflected in our universe which is an empirical example of his works and attributes.  

To make sure it is clear – do you believe the purpose of prayer is for us to find answers to our questions or for G-d to accomplish his purposes?  Remember the example Jesus gave of the woman pestering the governor to “change” his mind?

 

The Traveler

Hello Traveler,

My career is in tech. My religious background is N/A. ? As in I converted to Catholicism from atheism. I'm not a believe for the sake of believing kind of person. I'd say yes my faith has been proven, in my own experiences. 

To answer your question I believe prayer is a means by which we align ourselves to God's will. "Thy will be done."  I believe the answers to all questions are found in seeking out the will of God. Both in prayer and in practice. 

Edited by Blueskye2
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36 minutes ago, Blueskye2 said:

Hello Traveler,

My career is in tech. My religious background is N/A. ? As in I converted to Catholicism from atheism. I'm not a believe for the sake of believing kind of person. I'd say yes my faith has been proven, in my own experiences. 

To answer your question I believe prayer is a means by which we align ourselves to God's will. "Thy will be done."  I believe the answers to all questions are found in seeking out the will of God. Both in prayer and in practice. 

 

According to your experiences - is it ever possible to change G-d's mind?  Is it possible for prayers to ever change the intended outcome?

 

The Traveler

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3 hours ago, Traveler said:

 

According to your experiences - is it ever possible to change G-d's mind?  Is it possible for prayers to ever change the intended outcome?

 

The Traveler

More I am often surprised at the intended outcome, which changes me. 

God's will isn't changed, I am by seeking to be conformed to His will. Persistent prayer is for our benefit. It prepares our hearts.  The passage you used as an example it is encouraged as a protection against apostasy 

Spe Salvi has an excellent section on the topic, that I recommend. 

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On 9/8/2017 at 2:01 PM, fatima said:

I am wondering if someone can give me some insight on the LDS teaching on Eve.  I just read Jewel's post about an image at the SLC temple, and I am surprised at all the praise heaped upon her, and I assume that Adam shares in those praises.  

And if Eve is worthy of some sort of praise (although I cannot imagine why), does Mary, the Mother of Jesus Christ, also receive some sort of...added appreciation for her role in salvation history?

I think the easiest way to explain it is, we are commanded to honor our parents even in their imperfection and praise them (and God) in that way. Eve is basically our mother, any doctrinal differences aside.

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St. Mary Magdalene is my patron saint. I chose her because like me, she was a sinner who converted to Christ. She has the title "Apostle To The Apostles", because she was sent by Jesus to report to the Twelve her witness of Christ Risen.  St. Anselm called her "Friend of Christ". What an amazing thing to be counted as a friend of God! My personal aspiration, to be a friend of God, inspired by her...I am a work in progress. 

She is also the patroness of our diocese. 

"Most blessed lady, I who am the most evil and sinful of men do not recall your sins as a reproach, but call upon the boundless mercy by which they were blotted out.

This is my reassurance, so that I do not despair; this is my longing, so that I shall not perish." (From St. Anselm's prayer.)

Edited by Blueskye2
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On 9/17/2017 at 5:42 PM, Armin said:

Why always things exaggerate...? :rolleyes:

Do you mean escalate?

5 minutes ago, Armin said:

By the way... Vort reacted to my before last posting. He gave me "Thanks", and that sounds quite appreciating. The emoticon, however, looks like an urn. Does the "Thank" actually mean trash in a cynical way  just by saying "Thanks" for not making one outraged...? Undoubtedly the emoticon shows an urn, and many friends of mine would admit, not the ones, of course, who are the real experts and meanwhile inside of one, but I'm sure even they would agree.  :mad:

It's a trophy.

 

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On 9/11/2017 at 11:21 AM, person0 said:

You believe Adam and Eve won't be resurrected?  Or just that they wont be resurrected in glory?

Perhaps I am misunderstanding what you wrote, but if I read between the lines, it seems you believe that Adam and Eve will be going to hell.  Is this correct?  If so, what evidence is there to suggest this?  Is there anything scripture that would suggest they did not or could not repent after their fall?  Why would they bother to raise any of their children (i.e. Abel) in righteousness if they were not going to make it back?

I have no thoughts on where Adam and Eve will be for eternity.  There is nothing in Catholic teaching, either, that says they have gone to hell or heaven.

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16 hours ago, fatima said:

I have no thoughts on where Adam and Eve will be for eternity.  There is nothing in Catholic teaching, either, that says they have gone to hell or heaven.

Hello Fatima.  Eve is depicted in a mural in our church, as part of a group of OT Saints, so you’re answer got me to searching for the answer. Tradition has them in Heaven.  Their memorial is celebrated on December 24th (optional). Also, the Harrowing of Hell has, in Tradition, that Adam and Eve were among those who were released.  CCC 635: “Greatly desiring to visit those who live in darkness and in the shadow of death, [Christ] has gone to free from sorrow Adam in his bonds and Eve, captive with him - He who is both their God and the son of Eve.”

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On 10/2/2017 at 11:58 AM, Blueskye2 said:

Hello Fatima.  Eve is depicted in a mural in our church, as part of a group of OT Saints, so you’re answer got me to searching for the answer. Tradition has them in Heaven.  Their memorial is celebrated on December 24th (optional). Also, the Harrowing of Hell has, in Tradition, that Adam and Eve were among those who were released.  CCC 635: “Greatly desiring to visit those who live in darkness and in the shadow of death, [Christ] has gone to free from sorrow Adam in his bonds and Eve, captive with him - He who is both their God and the son of Eve.”

That is definitely news to me.  I have heard speculation that they might be in Purgatory until the end of time, but no definitive statements at all.

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On 10/2/2017 at 11:58 AM, Blueskye2 said:

Hello Fatima.  Eve is depicted in a mural in our church, as part of a group of OT Saints, so you’re answer got me to searching for the answer. Tradition has them in Heaven.  Their memorial is celebrated on December 24th (optional). Also, the Harrowing of Hell has, in Tradition, that Adam and Eve were among those who were released.  CCC 635: “Greatly desiring to visit those who live in darkness and in the shadow of death, [Christ] has gone to free from sorrow Adam in his bonds and Eve, captive with him - He who is both their God and the son of Eve.”

 

7 minutes ago, fatima said:

That is definitely news to me.  I have heard speculation that they might be in Purgatory until the end of time, but no definitive statements at all.

I didn't know about December 24.  But in the Philippines, we celebrate the saving grace of the Atonement on Holy Saturday during the Easter Vigil for the souls of Adam and Eve who are believed to be taken by Christ to heaven.  I don't know if they have that in the US since the Catholic Church I attended did not have the Holy Saturday portion of the Easter Vigil - they only have the Easter Vigil on Easter Sunday and I don't remember having Adam and Eve being celebrated then.

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On 9/17/2017 at 12:02 PM, Armin said:

It's my conviction their inspiration was anything but basing on divine. I would have nothing against it if one day the Gospel was anew written. By the way, I'm not a feminist and certainly not a socialist; but what must be said should be said. ;)

I can understand your frustration with the Bible. Although it is"scripture" it is scripture that has come under the influence of uninspired man and hence the need for additional revelation to reveal the things that have been lost or changed. From our perspective (Mormons that is) the gospel being written anew as you put it actually has happened. That's really the foundation of our whole belief system, a restoration of all things. If you haven't already I would recommend exploring our beliefs and seeing if they don't answer some of the questions you have.

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3 hours ago, Armin said:

Thanks for your statement. I'm on my way, riding through the deserts of desire, on a horse with no name.  And, still,  it might be a very long way. Hope, at least, the horse will make it. ;)

It only took the Israelites 40 years in the desert. Then again that whole generation died before they made it to the promised land. Well here's hoping your promised land is just over the next sand dune.:deadhorse:

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