eVa Posted November 8, 2017 Report Share Posted November 8, 2017 2 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said: What does that mean to you: not accepting the gospel or Christ but accepting the Holy Spirit? How does that play out in your thinking? Personally I think it could mean a person that didn't get baptized and set apart since we all have the right to the influence of the Holy Spirit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Folk Prophet Posted November 8, 2017 Report Share Posted November 8, 2017 1 minute ago, eVa said: Personally I think it could mean a person that didn't get baptized and set apart since we all have the right to the influence of the Holy Spirit. A right to the Holy Ghost and "accepting" the Holy Ghost cannot hardly be the same thing though. If one "accepts" the Holy Ghost then they are accepting truth. And truth testifies of the Savior and the gospel, so... Yeah. I don't really see accepting that as the real meaning. I'll grant some of the meanings get a bit muddy. But generally speaking, those who become Sons of Perdition are said to have denied the Holy Ghost -- but that is understood to mean a fullness of the Holy Ghost -- meaning they've been given full light and knowledge and still reject it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Osborn Posted November 9, 2017 Report Share Posted November 9, 2017 Just for kicks- heard it again last conference- "may I remind all of us that we live in a fallen world and for now we are a fallen people. We are in the telestial kingdom" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eVa Posted November 9, 2017 Report Share Posted November 9, 2017 15 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said: A right to the Holy Ghost and "accepting" the Holy Ghost cannot hardly be the same thing though. If one "accepts" the Holy Ghost then they are accepting truth. And truth testifies of the Savior and the gospel, so... Yeah. I don't really see accepting that as the real meaning. I'll grant some of the meanings get a bit muddy. But generally speaking, those who become Sons of Perdition are said to have denied the Holy Ghost -- but that is understood to mean a fullness of the Holy Ghost -- meaning they've been given full light and knowledge and still reject it. Right, the "gift" of the Holy Ghost comes not just at baptism, but during confirmation correct? I agree the Sons of Perdition are those who fully reject the light and truth after receiving it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Folk Prophet Posted November 9, 2017 Report Share Posted November 9, 2017 10 hours ago, Rob Osborn said: Just for kicks- heard it again last conference- "may I remind all of us that we live in a fallen world and for now we are a fallen people. We are in the telestial kingdom" Right. So clearly that must mean the same thing as the telestial kingdom "which surpasses all understanding; And no man knows it except him to whom God has revealed it." Obviously. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zil Posted November 9, 2017 Report Share Posted November 9, 2017 Just now, The Folk Prophet said: Right. So clearly that must mean the same thing as the telestial kingdom "which surpasses all understanding; And no man knows it except him to whom God has revealed it." Obviously. You forget that Rob thinks Joseph Smith didn't understand the vision which led to this section of the D&C, therefore, this section cannot be trusted. I think I'm going to use this as an excuse to write a (postal) letter to Elder Holland. We'll see what happens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Folk Prophet Posted November 9, 2017 Report Share Posted November 9, 2017 Just now, zil said: You forget that Rob thinks Joseph Smith didn't understand the vision which led to this section of the D&C, therefore, this section cannot be trusted. I tend to not let other's views manipulate my responses. zil 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Folk Prophet Posted November 9, 2017 Report Share Posted November 9, 2017 (edited) I'd like to point out, also, how ridiculous an idea it is to use apostles' quoted, who CLEARLY believe in D&C 76 (quotes provided upon request), to discredit D&C 76. It is very plain that the apostles and prophets, who both refer to D&C 76 -- the telestial kingdom which surpasses all understanding that the wicked will inherit post resurrection -- and also refer to this world as the telestial kingdom, don't mean both references to be equivalent. The idea of using one set of quotes as evidence against the other is entirely dishonest. Edited November 9, 2017 by The Folk Prophet zil 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Osborn Posted November 9, 2017 Report Share Posted November 9, 2017 39 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said: Right. So clearly that must mean the same thing as the telestial kingdom "which surpasses all understanding; And no man knows it except him to whom God has revealed it." Obviously. And yet we marvel over the great mysteries of this earth because it surpasseth all understanding.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Osborn Posted November 9, 2017 Report Share Posted November 9, 2017 26 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said: I'd like to point out, also, how ridiculous an idea it is to use apostles' quoted, who CLEARLY believe in D&C 76 (quotes provided upon request), to discredit D&C 76. It is very plain that the apostles and prophets, who both refer to D&C 76 -- the telestial kingdom which surpasses all understanding that the wicked will inherit post resurrection -- and also refer to this world as the telestial kingdom, don't mean both references to be equivalent. The idea of using one set of quotes as evidence against the other is entirely dishonest. Thats not my intent. My intent was to show that perhaps minds are changing, perhaps were beginning to see a doctrinal shift, a new understanding. I do know that what we have now sure doesnt work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Folk Prophet Posted November 9, 2017 Report Share Posted November 9, 2017 5 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said: Thats not my intent. My intent was to show that perhaps minds are changing, perhaps were beginning to see a doctrinal shift, a new understanding. I do know that what we have now sure doesnt work. By which do you mean to say that you think Jeffry R Holland believes that D&C 76 is a bunch of hogwash? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Osborn Posted November 9, 2017 Report Share Posted November 9, 2017 Just now, The Folk Prophet said: By which do you mean to say that you think Jeffry R Holland believes that D&C 76 is a bunch of hogwash? I dont know what you are saying. I commented to show that an apostle believes we are in the telestial kingdom right now. Its a step perhaps, thats all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Folk Prophet Posted November 9, 2017 Report Share Posted November 9, 2017 8 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said: I do know that what we have now sure doesnt work. I really have to wonder at the arrogance to believe that leads a person to think, "I don't understand this, therefore it must be wrong". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Osborn Posted November 9, 2017 Report Share Posted November 9, 2017 Just now, The Folk Prophet said: I really have to wonder at the arrogance to believe that leads a person to think, "I don't understand this, therefore it must be wrong". Its studying out over twenty years to conclude there are paradoxial problems. And then from there trying to resolve the conflict. Its not arrogance, its using ones intelligence in careful study. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Folk Prophet Posted November 9, 2017 Report Share Posted November 9, 2017 Just now, Rob Osborn said: I dont know what you are saying. I commented to show that an apostle believes we are in the telestial kingdom right now. Its a step perhaps, thats all. I am saying that you think that Jeffry R Holland saying that must mean that he is somehow disregarding the explanation of the Telestial Kindgom described in D&C 76, because that is the only way it is a "doctrinal shift" rather than simply using the word in a different sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Folk Prophet Posted November 9, 2017 Report Share Posted November 9, 2017 Just now, Rob Osborn said: Its studying out over twenty years to conclude there are paradoxial problems. And then from there trying to resolve the conflict. Its not arrogance, its using ones intelligence in careful study. Assuming one's intelligence and careful study is the end all to understanding pretty much defines arrogance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Osborn Posted November 9, 2017 Report Share Posted November 9, 2017 Just now, The Folk Prophet said: I am saying that you think that Jeffry R Holland saying that must mean that he is somehow disregarding the explanation of the Telestial Kindgom described in D&C 76, because that is the only way it is a "doctrinal shift" rather than simply using the word in a different sense. I am saying that he understands that we are currently in the telestial kingdom. This is one of the very first times I have see a modern day prophet declare in General conference this exact wording. Perhaps we are beginning to see a doctrinal shift. Thats all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Osborn Posted November 9, 2017 Report Share Posted November 9, 2017 1 minute ago, The Folk Prophet said: Assuming one's intelligence and careful study is the end all to understanding pretty much defines arrogance. Theres a great difference between arrogance and intelligence on a matter. Was Christ arrogant for knowing or understanding truth? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Folk Prophet Posted November 9, 2017 Report Share Posted November 9, 2017 2 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said: I am saying that he understands that we are currently in the telestial kingdom. This is one of the very first times I have see a modern day prophet declare in General conference this exact wording. Perhaps we are beginning to see a doctrinal shift. Thats all. Have you been through the temple? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Osborn Posted November 9, 2017 Report Share Posted November 9, 2017 Just now, The Folk Prophet said: Have you been through the temple? Yes, thats where I learned we are currently in the telestial kingdom. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Folk Prophet Posted November 9, 2017 Report Share Posted November 9, 2017 2 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said: Theres a great difference between arrogance and intelligence on a matter. Was Christ arrogant for knowing or understanding truth? Christ's intelligence WAS the end all to to understanding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Osborn Posted November 9, 2017 Report Share Posted November 9, 2017 1 minute ago, The Folk Prophet said: Christ's intelligence WAS the end all to to understanding. So, you must think I have poor understanding then? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Folk Prophet Posted November 9, 2017 Report Share Posted November 9, 2017 Just now, Rob Osborn said: Yes, thats where I learned we are currently in the telestial kingdom. Then how can you assume that the idea is new? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Folk Prophet Posted November 9, 2017 Report Share Posted November 9, 2017 2 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said: So, you must think I have poor understanding then? YES!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Osborn Posted November 9, 2017 Report Share Posted November 9, 2017 Just now, The Folk Prophet said: YES!! So, do you believe then, as Jeffery R. Holland states, that we are currently in the telestial kingdom? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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