What is doctrine and what is not?

[Rob Osborn]

3 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Then how can you assume that the idea is new?

Well, I have been paying special attention to what prophets say and as far as I can remember, this is the first time that a prophet of the Lord, in our day, has declared publicly that we are in the telestial kingdom now.

[The Folk Prophet]

2 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

So, do you believe then, as Jeffery R. Holland states, that we are currently in the telestial kingdom?

By one meaning of the term, yes. What I don't accept, and why would I, is that canonized scripture is wrong. The beginning of wisdom is realizing how limited we are in our ability to understand. Humility is accepting God's word and trusting in Him and His word despite our inability to understand things. There are a whole host of things I don't understand (in case you presume that my emphatic "YES!!" mean you alone), but when I do not understand things I do not cast them off as wrong and make up my own doctrine that makes sense to little ol' mortal stupid me. That would be arrogant.

[The Folk Prophet]

4 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Well, I have been paying special attention to what prophets say and as far as I can remember, this is the first time that a prophet of the Lord, in our day, has declared publicly that we are in the telestial kingdom now.

Ezra Taft Benson wrote, "We must remember this world is a telestial environment."

[Rob Osborn]

2 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

By one meaning of the term, yes. What I don't accept, and why would I, is that canonized scripture is wrong. The beginning of wisdom is realizing how limited we are in our ability to understand. Humility is accepting God's word and trusting in Him and His word despite our inability to understand things. There are a whole host of things I don't understand (in case you presume that my emphatic "YES!!" mean you alone), but when I do not understand things I do not cast them off as wrong and make up my own doctrine that makes sense to little ol' mortal stupid me. That would be arrogant.

And that may be how your mind works. Thats fine. My mind doesnt work that way. Im very methodical about finding out about principles and truth. My conclusions I believe are true. In some sense it puts me in a tough position but nevertheless I know that my calculations and conclusions are based on a sure rock, a true set of principles that cannot be removed. From there I can prove the contradiction. 

[Rob Osborn]

5 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Ezra Taft Benson wrote, "We must remember this world is a telestial environment."

Many have skated around it with similar words but the key phrase is "the telestial kingdom" because it connotates a singular kingdom and even further- it connotates the feeling of it being "the" same one spoken of and described in our scriptures.

[The Folk Prophet]

51 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

And that may be how your mind works. 

Well...I strive for humility, yes. I'm not sure it's natural to me.

51 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

My mind doesnt work that way.

You mean humbly?

51 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Im very methodical about finding out about principles and truth.  

Nothing wrong with that.

51 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

My conclusions I believe are true. 

Clearly. But meaningless. Everyone believe's their conclusions are true. But as near as I can recall, God has never revealed the idea that, "If you've concluded it despite what I told you then you are justified!" Rather he reveals to us that we seek further light and knowledge from Him, through His appointed leaders, through HIS SCRIPTURES, and through the Holy Spirit. That we put off our natural selves and submit our will and understanding to His ways, which are not our ways, and to His intelligence, which he actually has and you, relative to Him, do not.

The entire great apostasy came about through just what you're suggesting. Man applied his own method of reason and disregarded (even changing) scripture, ignoring God's methods of providing truth and light, and truth was lost. You, had you your way, would lead us into another great apostasy.

Edited November 9, 2017 by The Folk Prophet

[zil]

34 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

this exact wording

And do you ascribe exactly one (no more, no less) definition for every 3-word phrase in the English language?

Edited November 9, 2017 by zil

[Rob Osborn]

Just now, zil said:

And do you ascribe exactly one (no more, no less) definition for every 2-word phrase in the English language?

The phrase "the telestial kingdom" is particular. It has a specific connotation that is tied directly to section 76.

[zil]

8 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Many have skated around it with similar words but the key phrase is "the telestial kingdom" because it connotates a singular kingdom and even further- it connotates the feeling of it being "the" same one spoken of and described in our scriptures.

Maybe you should try reading the D&C in Russian - the words "the", "a", and "an" do not exist in Russian.

[Rob Osborn]

Just now, zil said:

Maybe you should try reading the D&C in Russian - the words "the", "a", and "an" do not exist in Russian.

Doesnt even matter. Me and Jeffery speak the same language that has the same meanings.

[zil]

1 minute ago, Rob Osborn said:

Doesnt even matter. Me and Jeffery speak the same language that has the same meanings.

Good buds, are you?

[estradling75]

4 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Clearly. But meaningless. Everyone believe's their conclusions are true. But as near as I can recall, God has never revealed the idea that, "If you've concluded it despite what I told you then you are justified!" Rather he reveals to us that we seek further light and knowledge from Him, through His appointed leaders, through HIS SCRIPTURES, and through the Holy Spirit. that we put off our natural selves and submit our will and understanding to His ways, which are not our ways, and to His intelligence, which he actually has and you, relative to Him, do not.

The entire great apostasy came about through just what you're suggesting. Man applied his own method of reason and disregarded (even changing) scripture, ignoring God's methods of providing truth and light, and truth was lost. You, had you your way, would lead us into another great apostasy.

Not only what you just said...  But on the off chance that during our personal search and study that God sees fit to reveal something new to you personally... That is something to be held sacred and pondered personally without revealing it to others.  Because God has set in place his Oracles to teach the world, that is his order and direction.  When we undertake to share what he has not commanded that we share, we violate his order and his trust by setting up ourselves to be a light instead of him. 

[Rob Osborn]

9 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Well...I strive for humility, yes. I'm not sure it's natural to me.

You mean humbly?

Nothing wrong with that.

Clearly. But meaningless. Everyone believe's their conclusions are true. But as near as I can recall, God has never revealed the idea that, "If you've concluded it despite what I told you then you are justified!" Rather he reveals to us that we seek further light and knowledge from Him, through His appointed leaders, through HIS SCRIPTURES, and through the Holy Spirit. that we put off our natural selves and submit our will and understanding to His ways, which are not our ways, and to His intelligence, which he actually has and you, relative to Him, do not.

The entire great apostasy came about through just what you're suggesting. Man applied his own method of reason and disregarded (even changing) scripture, ignoring God's methods of providing truth and light, and truth was lost. You, had you your way, would lead us into another great apostasy.

Actually the opposite because I am not walking away from them or not heeding their counsel. The truth will come, no doubt about it. We do have the right to seek and find truth. Now, whereas we cant all officially declare doctrine for the church we certainly do have the right to seek confirmation of truth from the prophets.

[The Folk Prophet]

Honestly the confusion is the last word in the phrase. There is no doubt that we are in a telestial state. And there is no doubt that those in the "telestial kingdom" will be in a telestial state. The scriptures refer to it as the telestial "world", and the temple refers to this world as a telestial "world". In both these cases, telestial is an adjective that does not define a specific state or place but modifies the state of the noun to which it is attached -- clarified by the idea of "even so differs one from another in glory in the telestial world".

It makes more sense to understand it thus, per the temple's "go down to the telestial world", and the like - go down to the world, which is telestial in it's state.

[The Folk Prophet]

1 minute ago, estradling75 said:

Not only what you just said...  But on the off chance that during our personal search and study that God sees fit to reveal something new to you personally... That is something to be held sacred and pondered personally without revealing it to others.  Because God has set in place his Oracles to teach the world, that is his order and direction.  When we undertake to share what he has not commanded that we share, we violate his order and his trust by setting up ourselves to be a light instead of him. 

True enough. But you can also pretty safely presume, I believe, that if it was "revealed" to you that D&C 76 is a bunch of hooey, that revelation did not come from God.

[Rob Osborn]

3 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Honestly the confusion is the last word in the phrase. There is no doubt that we are in a telestial state. And there is no doubt that those in the "telestial kingdom" will be in a telestial state. The scriptures refer to it as the telestial "world", and the temple refers to this world as a telestial "world". In both these cases, telestial is an adjective that does not define a specific state or place but modifies the state of the noun to which it is attached -- clarified by the idea of "even so differs one from another in glory in the telestial world".

It makes more sense to understand it thus, per the temple's "go down to the telestial world", and the like - go down to the world, which is telestial in it's state.

The temple uses the same exact two phrases as section 76. It uses both "the telestial kingdom" and "the telestial world" to define our earth right now.

[Rob Osborn]

3 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

True enough. But you can also pretty safely presume, I believe, that if it was "revealed" to you that D&C 76 is a bunch of hooey, that revelation did not come from God.

I dont believe it was "revealed" so much as rather I used my knowledge and intelligence to "find" it.

[omegaseamaster75]

50 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

I am saying that he understands that we are currently in the telestial kingdom. This is one of the very first times I have see a modern day prophet declare in General conference this exact wording. Perhaps we are beginning to see a doctrinal shift. Thats all.

Just because he said it doesn't make it doctrine, nor does it make him right.

[omegaseamaster75]

Just now, Rob Osborn said:

I dont believe it was "revealed" so much as rather I used my knowledge and intelligence to "find" it.

What did you find a supposed contradiction? only to you not to everyone else.

[The Folk Prophet]

2 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Actually the opposite because I am not walking away from them or not heeding their counsel.

When you proclaim false doctrines you are. When you potentially lead others to believe in false doctrine you are. When you set about to bring back the reasoning of man as the key to finding truth you are.

7 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

We do have the right to seek and find truth. 

No one is denying you that right. But when you preach things that are contrary to the D&C don't be surprised at the censure.

8 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Now, whereas we cant all officially declare doctrine for the church 

Just you?

[zil]

8 minutes ago, omegaseamaster75 said:

Just because he said it doesn't make it doctrine, nor does it make him right.

Nor does it mean he meant the exact definition Rob has ascribed to it.  If anyone were ever capable of using the same word/phrase in multiple ways, Elder Holland is.

[The Folk Prophet]

9 minutes ago, zil said:

Nor does it mean he meant the exact definition Rob has ascribed to it.  If anyone were ever capable of using the same word/phrase in multiple ways, Elder Holland is.

To be fair, President Monson is probably the one he's talking about. The two references I found are by Holland and Monson. They are both, clearly, referencing the temple.

[The Folk Prophet]

22 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

I dont believe it was "revealed" so much as rather I used my knowledge and intelligence to "find" it.

That does not help your case.

[zil]

3 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

To be fair, President Monson is probably the one he's talking about. The two references I found are by Holland and Monson. They are both, clearly, referencing the temple.

When I put his exact quote:

13 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

Just for kicks- heard it again last conference-

"may I remind all of us that we live in a fallen world and for now we are a fallen people. We are in the telestial kingdom"

... into google, limiting the site to lds.org, the only result I get from October 2017 GC is this:

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2017/10/be-ye-therefore-perfect-eventually?lang=eng

Also, unless there was a secret session, I'm not aware of a talk by President Monson.

And Elder Holland's reference doesn't necessarily seem to me to be referencing the temple specifically, just the fact that we're in a fallen world (yes, I know, indirect temple reference).

[The Folk Prophet]

28 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

The temple uses the same exact two phrases as section 76. It uses both "the telestial kingdom" and "the telestial world" to define our earth right now.

Just out of curiosity. If you think the temple and D&C 76 are contrary, and Joseph Smith, at some point, was off his rocker and screwed up...what makes you conclude that the temple isn't the screwed up paradigm instead of D&C 76?