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3 hours ago, Grunt said:

Why is this a big deal?  Why was it originally banned?

In Section 89, called the "Word of Wisdom", certain things are encouraged (e.g. grain consumption) and certain things are discouraged (e.g. alcohol and tobacco). One thing discouraged is "hot drinks". This phrase was interpreted fairly early on as meaning coffee and tea, not just any old drink that is served hot. For example, hot chocolate is not considered a "hot drink" in the sense the Word of Wisdom uses the term.

Now, people are wont to ask pesky questions like, "Why?" "Why does God not want us to use these things?" In the case of tobacco and alcohol, the answer is self-evident. In the case of coffee and tea ("hot drinks"), the answer is less obvious. Through the years, many LDS physicians and other well-meaning Saints have proposed various reasons why coffee and/or tea is bad for you: Tea has tannin, and tannin is nasty. Tea and coffee contain caffeine, which can be harmful in large doses. And so forth.

This idea of coffee and tea being bad because they contain caffeine is now quite old and has been accepted by many Saints, though the Church has been careful never to name caffeine as "the reason" for the Word of Wisdom's ban on "hot drinks". However, if one starts with the premise that caffeine is the reason that the Word of Wisdom prohibits coffee and tea ("hot drinks"), then it follows that caffeine in any form is a violation of the Word of Wisdom, at least in spirit.

This might sound preposterous, or at least far-fetched. But as recently as 1970, a letter from the First Presidency under Joseph Fielding Smith suggested that "Sanka [decaffeinated] coffee has not been included in beverages containing harmful ingredients."

GtJKPUt.png

This would not fly today; Sanka is coffee, and drinking coffee is a violation of the Word of Wisdom -- ergo, no Sanka. But this illustrates the sometimes-convoluted process whereby we come to understand, or at least to define, how things work. My grandparents drank Sanka until the day they died, and they were temple workers the whole time.

So it is not surprising that some would say that caffeine is evil and Coke should be avoided at all times, while others would say that neither soda pop nor caffeine is on the "Don't" list, so it's all good.

Bottom line: Drinking Coke and other caffeinated soda pops is not now and never has been a reason that the Church would deny someone a temple recommend (speaking for the Church as a whole and not necessarily for some individual bishop here or there). BYU has long avoided selling caffeinated drinks on campus, presumably under the idea that "discretion is the better part of valor." At times, BYU has clarified that its policy was not doctrinally related -- which was true, strictly speaking. But clearly, explicit doctrine or not, there has long been a prejudice against caffeine-containing drinks at BYU. Looks like the present BYU administration has decided to render the discussion moot. Which I think is too bad, but maybe it's for the best.

Edited by Vort
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19 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

...it was assumed that to even avoid the "appearance of evil" one should avoid anything of the like, which would include caffeinated drinks...something we apparently have forgotten in these days and don't care whether we appear evil or not.

That aside, a more common reason today, is still the appearance of evil.  There is NOTHING that says one can't do marijuana in the Word of Wisdom itself, but we do not partake due to clarifications in many ways, as well as that entire "appearance of evil" adage.

I disagree with your interpretation of "the appearance of evil". Scripturally speaking, it seems to me that the phrase "Abstain from all appearance of evil" does not refer to that which might appear to be evil -- which, after all, could be just about anything if people want to view it as such. Rather, I interpret it to mean, "When evil appears, abstain from it." Much different.

I also think that your conspiracy theory about an apostle being a caffeine addict and so therefore the Church has changed its teachings on the topic is nonsense. In essence, you are accusing the apostles of being self-serving hypocrites and acting in bad faith. I disbelieve that.

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My brother had a mission president who used to tell people,  if you drink caffeinated Coke, you are only 90% Mormon!

(If he got a load of how much caffeinated Coke I drink, he may be tempted to say I am more like 65% Mormon . . . :D)

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9 minutes ago, skippy740 said:

If J. Golden Kimball can say it... 

Haha xD

but on a serious note:

On my mission, the phrase "But I see assistants *insert questionable Activity one could do on a mission*" became an end all to missionaries seeking to bend the rules.

A leader's sin does not permit my sin. 

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"Nevertheless, thou mayest choose for thyself for it is given unto thee" comes to mind.

I used to drink energy drinks, but haven't touched them for about 4 years now.  I used to be able to have 2 of the big Red Bulls at a time... but last time I had a small one, and it made me palpitate.  I don't dare touch them anymore - not because of doctrine, but because I can choose for myself.

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2 minutes ago, skippy740 said:

but because I can choose for myself.

That's the key. There are many things that might not be expressly forbidden but are still not a good idea to partake in. 

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I understand why you feel that way @Fether. That's why I think it's best left to individuals, as we can do what seems good to us on the matter. And @JohnsonJones I'm sorry but I completely reject the idea that caffeine isn't spoken against because some GA's like caffeine. If it was wrong in God's eyes, he would tell them no matter what their weaknesses. And comparing caffeine to marijuana is ridiculous. Saying we are just doing it to maintain appearances is as silly as the Pharisees erecting a hedge about the law. That way you make the law more difficult for no reason. I still trust that God guides the Prophet and 12 Apostles. If he tells them to add caffeine to the list, I will never drink any again. But unless and until he does I will continue to use my own judgement on the matter, and be guided by the Holy Ghost.

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3 minutes ago, Midwest LDS said:

But I am a convert from the "mission field" so maybe I'm just not holy enough thanks to my wild upbringing?

You gotta keep a close eye on the converts. Never know what they are up to! 

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3 hours ago, Vort said:

In Section 89, called the "Word of Wisdom", certain things are encouraged (e.g. grain consumption) and certain things are discouraged (e.g. alcohol and tobacco). One thing discouraged is "hot drinks". This phrase was interpreted fairly early on as meaning coffee and tea, not just any old drink that is served hot. For example, hot chocolate is not considered a "hot drink" in the sense the Word of Wisdom uses the term.

Now, people are wont to ask pesky questions like, "Why?" "Why does God not want us to use these things?" In the case of tobacco and alcohol, the answer is self-evident. In the case of coffee and tea ("hot drinks"), the answer is less obvious. Through the years, many LDS physicians and other well-meaning Saints have proposed various reasons why coffee and/or tea is bad for you: Tea has tannin, and tannin is nasty. Tea and coffee contain caffeine, which can be harmful in large doses. And so forth.

This idea of coffee and tea being bad because they contain caffeine is now quite old and has been accepted by many Saints, though the Church has been careful never to name caffeine as "the reason" for the Word of Wisdom's ban on "hot drinks". However, if one starts with the premise that caffeine is the reason that the Word of Wisdom prohibits coffee and tea ("hot drinks"), then it follows that caffeine in any form is a violation of the Word of Wisdom, at least in spirit.

This might sound preposterous, or at least far-fetched. But as recently as 1970, a letter from the First Presidency under Joseph Fielding Smith suggested that "Sanka [decaffeinated] coffee has not been included in beverages containing harmful ingredients."

GtJKPUt.png

This would not fly today; Sanka is coffee, and drinking coffee is therefore a violation of the Word of Wisdom -- ergo, no Sanka. But this illustrates the sometimes-convoluted process whereby we come to understand, or at least to define, how things work. My grandparents drank Sanka until the day they died, and they were temple workers the whole time.

So it is not surprising that some would say that caffeine is evil and Coke should be avoided at all times, while others would say that neither soda pop nor caffeine is on the "Don't" list, so it's all good.

Bottom line: Drinking Coke and other caffeinated soda pops is not now and never has been a reason that the Church would deny someone a temple recommend (speaking for the Church as a whole and not necessarily for some individual bishop here or there). BYU has long avoided selling caffeinated drinks on campus, under the idea that "discretion is the better part of valor." At times, BYU has clarified that its policy was not doctrinally related -- which was true, strictly speaking. But clearly, explicit doctrine or not, there has long been a prejudice against caffeine-containing drinks at BYU. Looks like the present BYU administration has decided to render the discussion moot. Which I think is too bad, but maybe it's for the best.

Thanks!  When I was struggling with WoW one of the things I suggested was that I just drink decaf coffee.  It was said to me at the time that the WoW says nothing about caffeine.  I'm free to drink caffeine, but certainly not coffee since that is what WoW forbids.

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3 hours ago, Vort said:

I disagree with your interpretation of "the appearance of evil". Scripturally speaking, it seems to me that the phrase "Abstain from all appearance of evil" does not refer to that which might appear to be evil -- which, after all, could be just about anything if people want to view it as such. Rather, I interpret it to mean, "When evil appears, abstain from it." Much different.

I also think that your conspiracy theory about an apostle being a caffeine addict and so therefore the Church has changed its teachings on the topic is nonsense. In essence, you are accusing the apostles of being self-serving hypocrites and acting in bad faith. I disbelieve that.

It's not conspiracy theory about them being addicts...it's actually fact.  Also, I said Leaders, I didn't point out the exact individuals.  However, yes, this is very much to the heart of the matter.  In fact, I'm pretty positive if it were not for that, policies would not have changed as they have.

Reality may not be what you want, that doesn't change the tenets of the church.  Afterall, it used to be (whether you like it or not) that the Word of Wisdom was just that...a Word of Wisdom rather than a commandment that we keep.  Apparantly, despite popular pushings by some when those leaders were younger, they took it as just that, a Word of Wisdom, and chose to do as they wish...

When they got more ability to change things around, they did, as some of the changes of opinion in regards to caffeine is directly traceable to these people and those who sympathize with them.  They chose to drink caffeine, and yes, some seemingly cannot do without it.

Is that a bad thing?

I don't find it necessarily bad, but if that offends you...well, there are some other things which are in nowise against the commandments or word of the Lord which you might not want to know about the Leaders of the church which don't exactly correspond to popular LDS culture that would probably offend you much worse.

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2 hours ago, Midwest LDS said:

I understand why you feel that way @Fether. That's why I think it's best left to individuals, as we can do what seems good to us on the matter. And @JohnsonJones I'm sorry but I completely reject the idea that caffeine isn't spoken against because some GA's like caffeine. If it was wrong in God's eyes, he would tell them no matter what their weaknesses. And comparing caffeine to marijuana is ridiculous. Saying we are just doing it to maintain appearances is as silly as the Pharisees erecting a hedge about the law. That way you make the law more difficult for no reason. I still trust that God guides the Prophet and 12 Apostles. If he tells them to add caffeine to the list, I will never drink any again. But unless and until he does I will continue to use my own judgement on the matter, and be guided by the Holy Ghost.

It actually USED to be spoken against, even sometimes mentioned in Conference.

However, there are some leaders, and one in particular that love their caffeinated drinks.  The one that has had the biggest influence probably is the one that is apparently addicted to Diet Pepsi (and for some reason, there are those out there that apparently can't live without their Diet Coke, Diet Pepsi, or Mountain Dew...not sure why myself, but there it is) and regardless of Doctor's advice, diabetes, and everything else, still insists on drinking it by the caseload. 

The changes in mentioning about caffeine correlate a LOT to not just that individual, but others in the General Authorities gaining more and more ability to change LDS opinion and thoughts on this topic.

So, yes, basically it can be seen that as they gained power in the church, the ideas around caffeine have changed.  Do you find that offensive for some reason?

I don't know why.  I know some anti-Mormons try to make a big deal about this, but in truth, it's laughable.  I'm personally of the thought that the Word of Wisdom is a worldly law, but not one that is going to really play with whether you gain exaltation or not.  It's a law for our time.  however, it's not something that is like the Law of Chastity or any other eternal law.

You need to try to adhere to it to go to the temple, but it's not like anyone is going to go and strictly define it to you in what you have to or do not have to do outside the strict limitation of exactly what it states in the Word of Wisdom itself.

However, the big difficulty in the LDS church's buildings and campuses is that there ARE those who do not drink caffeinated drinks (such as my family) for religious reasons.  Telling people that those are not valid reasons is pretty divisive overall.  In addition, BECAUSE the church pushed so hard on not drinking caffeinated drinks (am I the only one that old on this forum...am I the only one who was alive when the LDS church had that as a standard) it is ALSO known about this outside the LDS church (and a reason Gordon B. Hinckley made a point about it in an interview at one time about LDS being able to drink caffeinated drinks in the 90s).  Even if you know you are good, those outside  the LDs church WILL judge you as participating in the appearance of evil....

Marijuana is a great example.  It's exactly in the position caffeine had been in the past few decades (on both the good and the bad sides).  In all honesty, most of what's come out about Marijuana has been that caffeine is actually more harmful, tobacco is actually more harmful, and Marijuana oil is actually a far better health item in regards to pain and such than many other legal drugs.

In truth, in some ways it parallels caffeine far more, except the extracts of it for medical reasons are probably far more healthy than any caffeinated drink.  There is NOTHING in the Word of Wisdom itself that says, Marijuana is not allowed...if you also say caffeine is allowed.

Personal takes on drugs is what determines whether one sees one drug (caffeine) as no problem and yet sees another drug (marijuana) as being such, even though medically, Marijuana actually has been proven to be more useful than caffeine (ironic...eh?).

PS: Just to be clear, I do NOT use marijuana nor support it's usage in daily life.  It's an example of how divisive saying caffeine is allowed in a church local may be...and yes, Marijuana is now legal in some states and nations...so it could be an issue.  More so when a doctor prescribes it to one of your members.

Edited by JohnsonJones
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50 minutes ago, Grunt said:

Thanks!  When I was struggling with WoW one of the things I suggested was that I just drink decaf coffee.  It was said to me at the time that the WoW says nothing about caffeine.  I'm free to drink caffeine, but certainly not coffee since that is what WoW forbids.

Depends on who you talk to.  I know some that think drinking coffee cold or iced tea or the green tea drinks in the stores does not break the Word of Wisdom as it specifies directly in verse 9

And again, hot drinks are not for the body or belly.

Which we have defined as being coffee and tea...

The history is something weird with statements like this from 1975

Quote

We know that cola drinks contain the drug caffeine. We know caffeine is not wholesome nor prudent for the use of our bodies. It is only sound judgment to conclude that cola drinks and any others that contain caffeine or other harmful ingredients should not be used."
 

Or from 1980

Quote

In the Word of Wisdom the Lord so narrowed down the width of the road leading to good health that, among other things, he placed alcohol, nicotine, and caffeine out of bounds."
 

President Kimball himself stated

Quote

Generally when we speak of the Word of Wisdom, we are talking about tea, coffee, tobacco, and liquor, and all of the fringe things even though they might be detrimental are not included in the technical interpretation of the Word of Wisdom. I never drink any of the cola drinks and my personal hope would be that no one would. However, they are not included in the Word of Wisdom in its technical application. I quote from a letter from the secretary to the First Presidency, "But the spirit of the Word of Wisdom would be violated by the drinking or eating of anything that contained a habit-forming drug."
 

Which is where many of the stronger stances against caffeinated drinks really started to take off. 

Technically, the Word of Wisdom in how we, the church, apply it has a basic minimum, and that minimum is what we stand at and hold the members accountable for today, which is basically, no tobacco, coffee, or tea or alcohol.

Other than that, we do not hold anyone accountable for anything beyond that, and even with those four items, it really is more of a temple recommend question than anything else.

We don't check to see how often someone is eating meat, or how often they are eating grain, or in what degree they are eating wheat vs. corn or oats and rye.  This is how it's always (well, since the Word of Wisdom was made mandatory, it wasn't always so)

Even with the temple recommend questions, which we are advised to keep strictly to unless someway the spirit prompts otherwise is

Do you keep the word of Wisdom?

In many ways, the LDS church's interpretation is up to each individual in how the interpret it and how they adhere to it.  This applies to many of the various gospel principles and covenants that we keep.

 

PS: and keep inline with the marijuana theme of my posts...I have not done marijuana, but from what I understand, caffeine is actually MORE habit forming than marijuana.  Something of interest.

And also, once again, just to be clear I do NOT use marijuana nor do I support it's usage in daily life. 

Edited by JohnsonJones
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Look I'm not arguing that caffeine is good for you (as I said in an earlier post I consider it in the same category as junk food and cake) but I do think it's ridiculous to argue that it was doctrine. To me that smacks of Pharisee talk. It's in the same category as the guy who told a friend of mines husband that he doesn't use ice in his drinks because it's against the word of wisdom. That being said I find it folly that you assert that a prophet's personal choices influence doctrine. Our leaders are mortal men, and have flaws that doesn't offend me. But I reject the idea that whatever their personal short comings they would ever allow that to affect doctrine. If the Lord told them to restrict something they were using, I gurantee they would gladly do so. I know them and they would not lead us astray. President Woodruff said "The Lord will never permit me or any other man who stands as President of this Church to lead you astray. It is not in the programme. It is not in the mind of God. If I were to attempt that, the Lord would remove me out of my place, and so He will any other man who attempts to lead the children of men astray from the oracles of God and from their duty". I believe him.

The idea that caffeine was ever restricted is a myth. I actually remember President Hinkleys interview with Mike Wallace, but that was not an official doctrinal statement. If it was, it would have been announced through official church channels. As I said I'm not saying everyone should crack open a Coke. But we are allowed to decide for ourselves whether or not things like Coke, and Cake, and Ding Dongs can be part of our diets. That is left up too individual revelation.

And marijuana is forbidden by the Word of Wisdom as are all hard drugs. Are there medical uses fror the plant? Probably, God has a purpose for all his creations. But using drugs with the intent to get high has always been against the Word of Wisdom.

Edited by Midwest LDS
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13 minutes ago, Midwest LDS said:

Look I'm not arguing that caffeine is good for you (as I said in an earlier post I consider it in the same category as junk food and cake) but I do think it's ridiculous to argue that it was doctrine. To me that smacks of Pharisee talk. It's in the same category who told a friend of mines husband that he doesn't use ice in a drink because it's against the word of wisdom. That being said I find it solly that you assert that a prophet's personal choices influence doctrine. Our leaders are mortal men, and have flaws that doesn't offend me. But I reject the idea that whatever their personal short comings they would ever allow that to affect doctrine. If the Lord told them to restrict something they were using, I gurantee they would gladly do so. I know them and they would not lead us astray. President Woodruff saidThe Lord will never permit me or any other man who stands as President of this Church to lead you astray. It is not in the programme. It is not in the mind of God. If I were to attempt that, the Lord would remove me out of my place, and so He will any other man who attempts to lead the children of men astray from the oracles of God and from their duty". I believe him.

The idea that caffeine was ever restricted is a myth. I actually remember President Hinkleys interview with Mike Wallace, but that was not an official doctrinal statement. If it was, it would have been announced through official church channels. As I said I'm not saying everyone should crack open a Coke. But we are allowed to decide for purselves wheter or not things like Cole, and Cake, and Ding Dongs can be part of our diets. That is left up to individual revelation.

And marijuana is forbidden by the Word of Wisdom as are all hard drugs. Are there medical uses fror the plant? Probably, God has a purpose for all his creations. But using drugs with the intent to get high has always been against the Word of Wisdom.

It was NEVER doctrine.  It was just as Kimball stated which was

Quote

Generally when we speak of the Word of Wisdom, we are talking about tea, coffee, tobacco, and liquor, and all of the fringe things even though they might be detrimental are not included in the technical interpretation of the Word of Wisdom. I never drink any of the cola drinks and my personal hope would be that no one would. However, they are not included in the Word of Wisdom in its technical application. I quote from a letter from the secretary to the First Presidency, "But the spirit of the Word of Wisdom would be violated by the drinking or eating of anything that contained a habit-forming drug."

As for Marijuana being restricted by the Word of Wisdom...that isn't doctrine either.  In fact, it's not even a hard drug.  A Bishop most likely would not say someone is following the word of wisdom if they are partaking in Marijuana, but who knows where the future lies.  Marijuana is probably in a similar location in the church as caffeine was in the church during the 1970s in regards to how it applies in regards to the Word of Wisdom.  Technically, if one really wants to use the technical terms, there really isn't anything against Marijuana.  It's not addictive, it's not a hard drug, and medically, it's been shown to be more useful than most of the acceptable drugs that we use in soda's, cigarettes, and otherwise.

The Word of Wisdom itself wasn't mandatory for a very long time.  It's our modern application of it that has it mandatory today to LDS church membership, but it was not actually always so.

Even then, it is open to a wide range of interpretations outside the vaunted coffee, tea, tobacco and alcohol.  For example, there are members that drink Iced tea drinks and Green tea health drinks all the time,  which technically IS tea, even if it isn't a HOT DRINK at the time.  I personally wouldn't count them as keeping the word of wisdom, but that is personal opinion and treads a dangerous line if I were to try that in an interview.  They hopefully answer truthfully when asked if they keep the Word of Wisdom.  IN many ways this is a personal interpretation.

PS: The biggest problem I have with the BYU thing is actually not that people drink caffeinated drinks.  It's the persecution members who drink those sometimes lay on those who do not.  In that way, it is exactly like the kid that is smoking and when someone states they don't do so because they are LDS...comes back and says...so what...so am I...are you a stick in the mud trying to appear better than me or something?

It's not trying to show one is better, but that there are many who attack those who do NOT drink caffeine and try to say there is no reason they should not, when we may actually have good reasons for not drinking caffeine from a religious viewpoint.  If it appears I am somewhat defensive, it is because this attitude of attacking those who do not drink caffeine occurs more than it should.  There is good reason why many in the church choose not to drink caffeine, and those who think they should attack us and say thing such as we have no doctrinal reasons or no reasons at all from a religious viewpoint.  In truth, I find a great deal of reasons from a religious viewpoint, but normally do not go out of my way to impress that upon anyone (For example, how many of you knew before this thread that me and my family were some of those that choose not to drink caffeinated drinks? this is not something I normally bring up in conversation on it's own).

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Look I think in some ways we are arguing similiar points although I do disagree with you about marijuana. I've seen what Mary Jane does to people under it's influence, and it absolutely is a hard drug. I'm just trying to say it's not doctrine to avoid caffeine and you seem to agree with that. I think the only point of contention I have with your argument (other than marijuana) was that you appeared to me to say that our apostles and prophets would lead the church astray because of their personal choices. I reject that. 

 

 

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The primary point I want to make though, before I go to bed, is that the principal reason we obey the Word of Wisdom is not for health reasons. It's to demonstrate our obedience to God. I know the Word of Wisdom has health benefits, but the primary reason I don't partake of the forbidden items and try to eat healthily and exercise isn't for those benefits, it's to obey God. I know the Word of Wisdom wasn't always mandatory. It is now. If President Monson stands up on September 30 and tells me to stop using caffeine I will (although I would shed more than a few tears over my chocolate. I have a Coke now and then but I love chocolate☺).

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2 hours ago, Midwest LDS said:

Look I think in some ways we are arguing similiar points although I do disagree with you about marijuana. I've seen what Mary Jane does to people under it's influence, and it absolutely is a hard drug. I'm just trying to say it's not doctrine to avoid caffeine and ypu seem to agree with that.

 The primary point I want to make though, before I go to bed, is that the principal reason we obey the Word of Wisdom is not for health reasons. It's to demonstrate our obedience to God. I know the Word of Wisdom has health benefits, but the primary reason I don't partake of the forbidden items and try to eat healthily and exercise isn't for those benefits, it's to obey God. I know the Word of Wisdom wasn't always mandatory. It is now. If President Monson stands up on September 30 and tells me to stop using caffeine I will (although I would shed more than a few tears over my chocolate. I have a Coke now and then but I love chocolate☺). My primary bone of contention with your argument was that it appeared to me to say that our apostles and prophets would lead the church astray because of their personal choices. I reject that. 

No, I don't think any of the General Authorities (so also the Seventies) are trying to lead the church astray.  Much of it is their own interpretations at various times.  For example how food storage has been stressed in the past, and how that has changed over time.  It used to be taught that we should try to have at least a years worth of food storage.  It is not as big of a stress point today as it used to be (IMO).  Various different things come up as important to various individuals and we hear about those things.  Some have different takes on the same idea (for example, I think they stress having money put away and at least an emergency kit available these days more than the years worth of food storage, but they are all part of the same thing and idea).

The things that change are normally not doctrine or anything to do strictly with doctrine, but more personal interpretations.  I understand why they occur, don't always agree with some of them, but it's not something that's going to hurt my testimony at all (and I think it was 5 years ago in 2012 where the church officially came out declaring that caffeinated drinks were "okay" as one would put it), even though, as Kimball points out, technically it was never against doctrine in the first place.

However, the Word of Wisdom is THE reason I do not drink caffeinated drinks.  Personally, I'd love to have my coffee in the morning, and drink alcoholic drinks (well, more like wine and an occasional beer), and then more coffee (coffee more than anything else to be honest, probably).  I've never had a desire to smoke, so that was never something, but gosh I'd love to have coffee.  However, as we follow the Word of Wisdom I don't...and it's also the reason I don't drink caffeinated drinks.  I understand that's a PERSONAL thing though, not a mandatory or something intrinsically part of the doctrine.  I think it can be divisive in a church setting though.  Hence, putting it at BYU is probably just as bad as bringing Pepsi Cola to a church dance and having that as the only soft drink available (well, there would be water too, obviously, so two options, but one is the sugared drink and the other is not).

So, yes, as you, the primary reason I follow the Word of Wisdom isn't for any specific health benefit, but more because we are told to follow it by our church leaders.

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15 hours ago, Fether said:

I'm not one to say "abstain from soda or you lose the spirit". But I do acknowledge that caffeine is a mind altering substance (even if it is just minor effects) and will never benefit our health under any circumstance.

Sugar on, the other hand, does benefit us. As long as it is in moderation. 

That is where my stance is.

I strongly believe that the overall health of BYU is going to diminish. Not to say everyone will be obese in 20 years, but health in general. No body needs caffeine.

Sugar, in the USA, is a whole lot more harmful than caffeine because it is on EVERYTHING.  Caffeine is not.  As a matter of fact, it is only on relatively very few items.

Caffeine, like sugar, can be harmful, but when used properly, can be of benefit.  It's not absolutely useless like you state.  Acetaminophen/ibuprofen with caffeine is very effective for migraines.  Like I always say - be careful with extremist positions.  Especially in these kinds of discussions where it is completely unnecessary.

450.jpg

 

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11 hours ago, Grunt said:

Thanks!  When I was struggling with WoW one of the things I suggested was that I just drink decaf coffee.  It was said to me at the time that the WoW says nothing about caffeine.  I'm free to drink caffeine, but certainly not coffee since that is what WoW forbids.

Grunt, try rice "coffee"!  You can make it yourself using plain white rice.  Roast the rice until it turns dark brown.  It takes about 5 minutes or so.  It will produce tons of smoke that could set off the fire alarms and the whole kitchen will smell burnt so it's better to do this in an outdoor kitchen/grill or over a campfire.  Grind the roasted rice like you would regular coffee bean, put in a coffee filter and pour hot water.  It's a "poor man's coffee" in the Philippines because rice is a whole lot cheaper than coffee beans.  Of course, the poor people in the Philippines don't have coffee grinders or coffee filters so they just do it like this:

 

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