Keeping the Sabbath Day Holy

[person0]

In our most recent Ward Counsel, we watched videos of a Quorum of the 70 training meeting where they discussed the Church's number one focus over the last three years, keeping the Sabbath day holy.  From these videos I learned that at the current revelation to the Brethren is that this should remain the leading focus for an indefinite period of time and we should not expect to see any new 'flavor of the month' in terms of focus.  I find this interesting because I think it is evident in most of our wards and branches that there is a lot going on that holds people back from fulfilling our Sabbath obligation to the Lord in the truest sense.  This could be anything from work obligations, to entertainment impulse, etc.  As I was pondering this and considering how the command to honor the Sabbath was one of the primary 10 commandments given to the Israelites, I also came across this passage:

Quote

12 ¶ And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,

13 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the Lord that doth sanctify you.

14 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

15 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the Lord: whosoever doeth anywork in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.

16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.

17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.

(Exodus 31:12-17) emphasis added

This is some strong language, and in my opinion, is indicative of the importance that the Lord places on the Sabbath.  Some key points:

• God not only rested on the seventh day, he was refreshed as a result of the rest he took.
• The Sabbath is holy to God, in addition to being holy to us.
• The Sabbath is a perpetual covenant, it is a covenant extending forever.
• Keeping the Sabbath is of such importance that initially the penalty was to be cut off from the rest of the people, and ultimately to be put to death.

With all that in mind, especially considering the Lord's multiple restatements of some things, I find it difficult to accept my current Sabbath observance, and also find it easy to believe that most members are probably not honoring the Sabbath as they should.  Which would make sense given it is what has been revealed to the First Presidency and the Quorum of the 12 Apostles at this time as the main thing to focus on.

Areas of pondering on this topic, where I admittedly occasionally find myself in judgment of others:

• I have never worked on Sunday's.  I have been successful in avoiding it even at times when it would normally be expected/required.  Would I be so adamant and continue to not work on the Sabbath if it meant the difference between my family eating and not eating, or keeping/losing my job?  My initial reaction would be to say yes, but then, am I doing enough of the right things on the Sabbath to adequately feel I can effectively hold myself to such a staunch position?
• I do strongly support Sabbath roles for medical and other health/safety careers (i.e. police, firemen, etc).
• I have trouble finding any sort of justification for spectator or participant activity in sporting events on the Sabbath.
• TV viewership that involves non-religious, or non spiritually uplifting messages and themes is something I don't like on Sundays in my home.  Why do so many feel this is acceptable?
• Personally, I think clean video games that involve family participation can be valuable and provide a similar bonding experience to board games, but what beyond that?

Clearly, activities will differ in how we keep the Sabbath day holy, as do methods for calculating tithing, however, in general, I believe that the counsel of the Brethren is telling, and that membership of the Church as a whole do not adequately fulfill this covenant.  What do you think?

Edited September 24, 2017 by person0

[NightSG]

9 minutes ago, person0 said:

• I have never worked on Sunday's.  I have been successful in avoiding it even at times when it would normally be expected/required.  Would I be so adamant and continue to not work on the Sabbath if it meant the difference between my family eating and not eating, or keeping/losing my job?  My initial reaction would be to say yes, but then, am I doing enough of the right things on the Sabbath to adequately feel I can effectively hold myself to such a staunch position?

“Which of you shall have an ass or an ox fallen into a pit, and will not straightway pull him out on the sabbath day?"

[JohnsonJones]

Opinions seem to vary wildly on these things.  This is also why College Football tends to be more popular in my household (though they now have NFL games on weekdays as well). 

In regards to the Sabbath, I think one reason it was so harsh may not merely have been for the typical lay member, but for those that employed others.  It takes a harsh penalty to force an employer to stop forcing their employees (or in the ancient times, slaves) from working on the Sabbath.  A death sentence most likely put a stop to what we see as a flagrant disregard for the Sabbath today in favor of profit and gain.  Of course, if no one would go out on the Sabbath to those companies, they probably would soon close down and would not have the disregard to keeping the Sabbath day holy.

On the otherhand, we have the example of the Savior and the idea that when the ox is in the mire...

I tend to look at it on the basis of first...are we supporting anyone else working.  We don't take it to an extreme (we still use electricity and such necessities), but things that we do not necessarily need, such as TV channels and shows.  I think watching any network TV (with the exception of Conference...which I think could be labeled as a necessity for LDS saints...maybe) is something that is not necessarily keeping the Sabbath day holy.   I don't go shopping or out to places which require people to work on Sunday unless it is a necessity (so utilities like water and electricity are necessities, medical personel to staff hospitals are a necessity, an amusement park is NOT a necessity).  So, listening to the radio or watching TV normally requires someone to be there, it is not something that is a necessity in life and in watching or listening to those, we are causing someone else to need to work on the Sabbath.

Watching movies which require no one at a channel or otherwise...that's a little more tricky.

The second focus of the Sabbath is that it is a Holy day and the Lord's day.

I had a son visiting recently, and he asked if he could play his video game thing on sunday.  I told him he old enough to make his own decisions, so he could choose what he wanted to do.  Then, he wanted to get some of the younger nephews and such playing as well, which I then told him they could not as long as I was watching them.  I said, he could choose for himself, but for us, we wouldn't play those video games on Sunday.  That does not mean we don't do ANY video or video games, but it is within the confines of the following which I think should at least attempted to be kept.

As I said above, first is the consideration of whether we are causing others to unnecessarily work.

Secondly, is within ourselves.  The Sabbath is the Lord's day, and our thoughts and efforts and relaxing probably should have some relevance in focusing on him.  Will such a video game have any relevance to the lord or keeping the Sabbath day Holy.  In this, it is a HOLY day, nor just necessarily a day to relax (though there is that as well...so I love to take naps on Sunday).  I obviously visit this place occasionally on Sunday (I don't think it requires anyone to work...if I am wrong please tell me) and feel discussion such as I find here normally a worthwhile thing on Sunday (if I have time...ironically, Sunday for me can sometimes be excessively busy...but not with normal work but in regards to the Church and things I do in it).

So, I think it is two fold.

First - Are we allowing others to keep the Sabbath day holy in our activities on the Sabbath.

Secondly - do we remember that it is the Lords day and we should approach it with the proper attitude in respect for him.

Edited September 24, 2017 by JohnsonJones

[person0]

6 hours ago, NightSG said:

“Which of you shall have an ass or an ox fallen into a pit, and will not straightway pull him out on the sabbath day?"

While I recognize the important implications of this example and how it is often used, in context, Christ used the hypocrisy of the Pharisees against them, when they were trying to entrap him.  He never condoned the behavior.  He never actually said it was okay to pull the ox out out of the pit;  he simply and accurately accused them of doing it, while still professing to observe the Sabbath.

Side Note Commentary:  I also was just thinking about how general authorities travel on Sundays and eat at restaurants as part of their travels.  I recall my mission president telling me of a time when Boyd K. Packer was with a group of missionaries and stopped at a Wendy's.  When one of the missionaries seemed concerned he told the group of Elder's something along the lines of, "It is okay to do the Lord's work on the Sabbath; I know my body, and I need to eat to continue to do His work effectively today."  As I ponder on it, in my limited thinking, I still don't like that.  The GA is accomplishing the Lord's work, which is good, but if society as a whole kept the Sabbath holy, I doubt the GA's would be able to travel and eat out as needed unless using private jets and staff.  With modern technology it would be easy to pack cold meals, and other forms of nourishment if one were to adequately prepare.  However, I recognize that in many (if not most) cases such preparation could be very difficult to coordinate, especially when travel of any significant distance is involved.  Also, if the living prophet and apostles have received from the Lord that this is okay, then it's okay.

I am by no means a perfect Sabbath observer, but I feel like there's some sort of underlying principle related to the Sabbath that is yet to be revealed that could tie all of these things together.  Similar to @JohnsonJones, I tend to ask if I am requiring someone else to work on the Sabbath by my actions and use that as a first basis of evaluation.  From the example above, it seems that in some instances that may be already taking it too far.

[zil]

IMO, if you have not studied every Sabbath-related entry in the topical guide and Bible dictionary - including "sabbatical" entries - you should.  It's an interesting and educational exercise on a topic we think we already understand.

[NightSG]

11 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

So, listening to the radio or watching TV normally requires someone to be there, it is not something that is a necessity in life and in watching or listening to those, we are causing someone else to need to work on the Sabbath.

Remember that even mostly automated stations keep someone on staff at all times in part for emergency announcements; the other tasks mostly just justify paying them to be there for a full shift.

Then there's the question of whether any of you also refrain from shopping, entertainment, etc. on Saturday, (or Friday night) so as not to have any Jews, Seventh Day Adventists, Seventh Day Baptists, GCI, TJC or others pressured to violate their Sabbath by the same mechanism, or do such savage infidels not warrant your consideration?

[Guest]

Maybe we should see honoring the Sabbath less as a set of rules, and more as a chance for us to individually give up something that matters to us in the name of making the Sabbath more holy for us personally?

I generally don't listen to music on Sunday.  I don't think listening to music on Sunday is a sin.  Rather, it is something I do a lot during the week, and I decided would be a good thing for me personally to give up in the name of trying to have the Spirit more strongly on Sunday.  In similar fashion, I don't play video games on Sunday because it is something I have decided to give up to make Sunday more holy for me.  I don't think it is a sin, however, if my bishop plays video games on Sunday (he does).

I do allow appropriate TV on Sunday in my house.  Television is not something I care about much, but I do think watching a Disney movie on Sunday is a good way to have some family time and relaxation and fits into my narrative of honoring the Sabbath.  I don't have cable and primarily watch TV through DVDs, so other people working does not really fit into my narrative.  Maybe it doesn't for other people, but it works for my family.  Also, obviously I have no problem visiting Mormonhub on Sunday (to me it is in the same category as reading worthy books).

So basically, I think honoring the Sabbath may mean different things to different people, depending on what they decide to give up in the name of making one day a week a little holier than the rest.  

There are some absolutes - the general authorities have been very clear that we should make a good faith effort not to work or shop on Sunday, for example.  Also, general authorities have said that Church activity, visiting relatives, sleeping, reading worthy books, and going on nature walks are all worthy Sabbath activities.  But outside of these absolutes, I think perhaps we need to get away from thinking of the Sabbath in terms of "certain activities are sinful" and think of it more like many Protestants think of Lent - a good weekly opportunity to look into our lives and sacrifice some things to the Lord that are personal to us in the name of making a day a little more holy than usual?

 

Edited September 24, 2017 by DoctorLemon

[Anddenex]

Elder Russell M. Nelson provided an excellent talk, "The Sabbath Is a Delight," regarding honoring the Sabbath day, and to keep it Holy. In this talk he provided the following statement, "How do we hallow the Sabbath day? In my much younger years, I studied the work of others who had compiled lists of things to do and things not to do on the Sabbath. It wasn’t until later that I learned from the scriptures that my conduct and my attitude on the Sabbath constituted a sign between me and my Heavenly Father.With that understanding, I no longer needed lists of dos and don’ts. When I had to make a decision whether or not an activity was appropriate for the Sabbath, I simply asked myself, “What sign do I want to give to God?” That question made my choices about the Sabbath day crystal clear."

The question, "What sign do I want to give to God?" is a great principle that honors the following thought from Joseph Smith, "I teach them correct principles, and they govern themselves."

Regarding your first bullet point emphasizing "work" on the Sabbath day we shared at a point a similar mind and heart. I avoided working on Sunday and found jobs (although they paid less) that did not require such. In early morning seminary (also institute classes) all lessons on the Sabbath emphasized not working on the Sabbath. These lessons highlighted people's (i.e. the BYU football player who chose not to become a professional athlete because it required him to work on the Sabbath); however, my mind and heart have changed on the matter due to the following:

1) It really doesn't seem to matter if people work on Sunday or not (we have a General Authority, Seventy, who played professional football for 6 years or so

2) When the Church highlights people they highlight people who work(ed) on Sunday's -- Steve Young and other professional athletes (in contrast to the seminary lesson and examples)

3) Certain jobs require work on the Sabbath. I have a friend who was a bodyguard for President Monson, and the job was 24/7. So someone was always working on the Sabbath, and if you were the newbie you worked the majority of the Sabbath days.

In light of these three points, what then matters (job wise) if the Church is highlighting people who work on Sundays. This is why I also like Elder Russell M. Nelson's question, "What sign do I want to give to God?" as the question causes internal reflection, and is less about lists, and more about how much "love" we have for our Father in heaven.

Edited September 24, 2017 by Anddenex

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

8 hours ago, zil said:

IMO, if you have not studied every Sabbath-related entry in the topical guide and Bible dictionary - including "sabbatical" entries - you should.  It's an interesting and educational exercise on a topic we think we already understand.

I think that is a marvelous idea.  I need to do that.  Thanks!

[laronius]

1 hour ago, Anddenex said:

 It really doesn't seem to matter if people work on Sunday or not (we have a General Authority, Seventy, who played professional football for 6 years or so

Obviously the decision is one to be made after counseling with the Lord and for some people working on some Sundays is acceptable to the Lord. But the scriptures make it pretty clear that as a rule we should not perform our labors on Sunday. Just because there are exceptions to such things does not mean the Lord condones it in most cases.

[laronius]

I was reading in a book recently about temples where the author talks about how the Lord not only wants us to observe sacred spaces (i.e. temples) but also sacred time, such as the Sabbath. I really liked the idea of connecting the Sabbath to temples. We learn in the temple/scriptures that the Lord created all things spiritually first and then temporally. I think this is very much one of the roles of Sabbath observance. At the start of each week we renew covenants, study the doctrines, and refocus our lives on the things of the Spirit. We come to better understand the kind of life we ought to live. Then throughout the coming week we put into practical implementation those principles we learned on Sunday. In other words we act out in the temporal world the things we first observed spiritually on the Lord's day, completing (at least in part) the creative process of becoming like our Savior.

[Sunday21]

2 hours ago, laronius said:

I was reading in a book recently about temples where the author talks about how the Lord not only wants us to observe sacred spaces (i.e. temples) but also sacred time, such as the Sabbath. I really liked the idea of connecting the Sabbath to temples. We learn in the temple/scriptures that the Lord created all things spiritually first and then temporally. I think this is very much one of the roles of Sabbath observance. At the start of each week we renew covenants, study the doctrines, and refocus our lives on the things of the Spirit. We come to better understand the kind of life we ought to live. Then throughout the coming week we put into practical implementation those principles we learned on Sunday. In other words we act out in the temporal world the things we first observed spiritually on the Lord's day, completing (at least in part) the creative process of becoming like our Savior.

So why, why, why is the temple not open on Sundays? I know the temple presidency needs the day off...

[Fether]

15 hours ago, laronius said:

Obviously the decision is one to be made after counseling with the Lord and for some people working on some Sundays is acceptable to the Lord. But the scriptures make it pretty clear that as a rule we should not perform our labors on Sunday. Just because there are exceptions to such things does not mean the Lord condones it in most cases.

 

You should read this (well everyone should):

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1978/01/working-on-sunday?lang=eng

 

Here is a highlight

"If you are already in a job that requires Sunday work, you need to ask yourself the following:

Is there an alternative to Sunday work? Can I change my schedule?

If I did not work on Sunday, would it put an unfair burden on other employees? Could we trade Sunday shifts?

If I quit this job, what would happen to my family? Are there other employment possibilities that could keep us secure and yet allow me to participate fully in the Church and obey the Lord’s commandments?

Is there a ward where I can still attend some or all of my Sunday meetings, even though I work?

Am I sure I’m not using my job as an excuse for laziness?"

 

I live in Utah and I feel like finding a college level job in Utah where you can avoid working sundays is harder than anywhere else.

I honestly can't think of a single job off hand where I don't work Sunday's. Of course we can say "I refuse to work sundays" but that leaves 5 other LDS members who have to work Sundays. 

So what are my options if I hold to the no Sunday working rule? Well... I will likely go heavy into school debt, car debt, rely on the church welfare, paying rent would be impossible so I would have to live off funds from my parents who don't work sundays. My wife is now pregnant so we wouldn't be able to afford insurance so we would get Medicaid, maybe even need food stamps. Then when my child comes along, I'm still 2 years till I get into my career so how would I take care of my child and my wife? We also plan on having a second before we end school. All of this ofcourse is told to us by prophets that we shouldn't do either.

Keeping the sabbath holy is not just a check list of does and do nots.

ADDITIONAL REFERENCES:

"For those who work on the Sabbath when it is not necessary, President Kimball said, “I wonder if money earned upon the Sabbath, when it is unnecessary Sabbath earning, might not also be unclean money"

 

"When men and women are willing to work on the Sabbath to increase their wealth, they are breaking the commandments; for money taken in on the Sabbath, if the work is unnecessary, is unclean money." - Spencer W Kimball

 

https://www.lds.org/ensign/2007/01/keeping-the-sabbath-and-keeping-my-job?lang=eng

https://www.lds.org/blog/can-i-honor-god-while-working-on-the-sabbath?lang=eng

- "The question itself sounds heretical. Yet many people work Sundays not out of a desire to displease God but more as a reluctant bowing to the practical realities of life. We know Jesus says “the Sabbath was given unto man for a day of rest” (Joseph Smith Translation, Mark 2:26 [in the Bible appendix]), but in our hyper-connected world in which it’s vogue to always be available by smartphone, the vision of a Sabbath of stillness and peace is remarkably difficult for many to experience every Sunday—even for Church employees, of which I am one."

 

 

 

The official church stance seems seems to allow it unless it is avoidable or it is to increase our gain.

Edited September 25, 2017 by Fether

[Traveler]

 

Keeping the Sabbath holy is rather vague.  Many say it is the devil in the details.  Some interesting observations and questions:

1. The LDS church holds all its official Sabbath meeting in Israel on Saturday.

2. It appears to me that the terms, holy, whole, perfect and complete are synonyms in religious settings.

3. I believe that Sabbath is a covenant we make with G-d. 

Some questions I have for those the claim to believe in G-d

 4. What is you Sabbath covenant? 

5. How does your Sabbath covenant define your marriage relationship? 

6. What are your family obligations concerning the Sabbath? 

7. How does your Sabbath covenant affect your relationship with neighbors and friends in your community?

8. If your work requires you to work on your Sabbath – Do you set aside another day of “rest”?

 9. Because of your Sabbath covenant – what do you do with money you earn (if any) on your covenant Sabbath day?

Thanks

 

The Traveler

[zil]

59 minutes ago, Traveler said:

5. How does your Sabbath covenant define your marriage relationship? 

Aha! Loophole!  Single people can do whatever they want on Sunday.

59 minutes ago, Traveler said:

6. What are your family obligations concerning the Sabbath? 

But maybe only if they have no family. 

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

7. How does your Sabbath covenant affect your relationship with neighbors and friends in your community?

Hmm.  And no friends and neighbors. 

Pretty tight loophole.

[mordorbund]

6 minutes ago, zil said:

Aha! Loophole! 

The very definition of Sabbath observance, tithing, and the Word of Wisdom....

[The Folk Prophet]

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

8. If your work requires you to work on your Sabbath – Do you set aside another day of “rest”?

A fascinating idea that I've never considered.

[person0]

Just now, The Folk Prophet said:

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

8. If your work requires you to work on your Sabbath – Do you set aside another day of “rest”?

A fascinating idea that I've never considered.

As a missionary, I once had a 7th Day Adventist minister as an investigator.  In our discussions he was so adamant that the Sabbath must be observed on it's original day of Saturday.  I considered two questions in regards to this.

1. What if someone were in a long term situation where they were unaware of what day of the week it was, and as a result simply chose a day on which to worship as their Sabbath and began counting every 7 days; if that day ended up actually being Wednesday, would it be any less sacred to the individual and the Lord?
   • His response was that he believed the Lord would ultimately reveal the correct Sabbath to that individual through the Spirit.  But he acknowledged it was a question of value in consideration of his position.
2. Do you have proof to suggest that the Sabbath was never accidentally changed at any point in history, and that what is now Saturday was never mixed up or altered from the time God commanded Moses to establish the Law of the Sabbath?
   • I didn't actually ask him this one, but simply considered it to myself, because he would have given the same answer as to the first question.

Personally, I don't think that the actual day of the week would be of absolute importance to the Lord. It was pointed out that the BYU Jerusalem Center observes Saturday as the Sabbath.  I think keeping the Sabbath day holy is what is important; when that day is, perhaps somewhat less important.  But, culturally, it would be inappropriate to intentionally pick some other day to observe since in the US as a Church, we observe Sunday.

[The Folk Prophet]

5 minutes ago, person0 said:

As a missionary, I once had a 7th Day Adventist minister as an investigator.  In our discussions he was so adamant that the Sabbath must be observed on it's original day of Saturday.  I considered two questions in regards to this.

1. What if someone were in a long term situation where they were unaware of what day of the week it was, and as a result simply chose a day on which to worship as their Sabbath and began counting every 7 days; if that day ended up actually being Wednesday, would it be any less sacred to the individual and the Lord?
   • His response was that he believed the Lord would ultimately reveal the correct Sabbath to that individual through the Spirit.  But he acknowledged it was a question of value in consideration of his position.
2. Do you have proof to suggest that the Sabbath was never accidentally changed at any point in history, and that what is now Saturday was never mixed up or altered from the time God commanded Moses to establish the Law of the Sabbath?
   • I didn't actually ask him this one, but simply considered it to myself, because he would have given the same answer as to the first question.

Personally, I don't think that the actual day of the week would be of absolute importance to the Lord. It was pointed out that the BYU Jerusalem Center observes Saturday as the Sabbath.  I think keeping the Sabbath day holy is what is important; when that day is, perhaps somewhat less important.  But, culturally, it would be inappropriate to intentionally pick some other day to observe since in the US as a Church, we observe Sunday.

Good thoughts, but misses the point of my fascination a bit. I'll explain. I don't think it matters what day we worship as a whole. I do think it may matter if one worships on a different day than the whole. Setting aside the Sabbath as a day of worship has more to it than just our own worship. And, I believe, there's likely a great deal of power in the community as a whole worshiping together in various ways. That being said, if one literally CANNOT worship with the whole, the idea of a "lesser evil" (am I really opening that can of worms further) by worshiping on the wrong day instead of not worshiping at all strikes me as fascinating.

[zil]

8 minutes ago, person0 said:

Do you have proof to suggest that the Sabbath was never accidentally changed at any point in history, and that what is now Saturday was never mixed up or altered from the time God commanded Moses to establish the Law of the Sabbath?

Bag that!  What, exactly, was the date of the Lord's day of rest after the creation?  Huh? Huh?  Cuz if we're gonna be nitpicky about the day of the week, then we're gonna have to count it from that first sabbath day.

PS: Apparently your investigator hasn't done a lot of research on the history of the calendar, cuz I think we can be reasonably sure that the number of days between last Saturday by our calendar and the first Sabbath by Moses' calendar is not evenly divisible by 7.  (I could be wrong, but I'm betting we've lost track and renamed things in the meantime.)

[Traveler]

33 minutes ago, person0 said:

As a missionary, I once had a 7th Day Adventist minister as an investigator.  In our discussions he was so adamant that the Sabbath must be observed on it's original day of Saturday.  I considered two questions in regards to this.

1. What if someone were in a long term situation where they were unaware of what day of the week it was, and as a result simply chose a day on which to worship as their Sabbath and began counting every 7 days; if that day ended up actually being Wednesday, would it be any less sacred to the individual and the Lord?
   • His response was that he believed the Lord would ultimately reveal the correct Sabbath to that individual through the Spirit.  But he acknowledged it was a question of value in consideration of his position.
2. Do you have proof to suggest that the Sabbath was never accidentally changed at any point in history, and that what is now Saturday was never mixed up or altered from the time God commanded Moses to establish the Law of the Sabbath?
   • I didn't actually ask him this one, but simply considered it to myself, because he would have given the same answer as to the first question.

Personally, I don't think that the actual day of the week would be of absolute importance to the Lord. It was pointed out that the BYU Jerusalem Center observes Saturday as the Sabbath.  I think keeping the Sabbath day holy is what is important; when that day is, perhaps somewhat less important.  But, culturally, it would be inappropriate to intentionally pick some other day to observe since in the US as a Church, we observe Sunday.

 

Here is a question along this line --- If someone was to take a trip that circumnavigates the world - do they change the covenant of one day in seven as the covenant is dictated in scripture or go along with the crowd (everybody else) when they get back home.

I am not sure how many realize that your 7th Day Adventist minister investigator friend has created a contradiction.  One is that individual revelation is part of individual covenant with G-d but then so is the covenant by congregation.   What do we do when our personal covenants come into conflict with that of our congregation where we worship?

 

The Traveler

[Traveler]

1 hour ago, zil said:

Aha! Loophole!  Single people can do whatever they want on Sunday.

But maybe only if they have no family. 

Hmm.  And no friends and neighbors. 

Pretty tight loophole.

Hmmmmmm - I am thinking that is someone is convinced they have no family, no friends nor neighbors -- they are in violations of covenants that goes beyond that of the Sabbath covenant.  At least that is my understanding of Jesus and his teachings.  If you believe Jesus taught something different I would be very interested in the process by which you came to such a conclusion.  Are you open to discussions on this point?

 

Thanks

 

The Traveler

[zil]

1 minute ago, Traveler said:

Hmmmmmm - I am thinking that is someone is convinced they have no family, no friends nor neighbors -- they are in violations of covenants that goes beyond that of the Sabbath covenant.  At least that is my understanding of Jesus and his teachings.  If you believe Jesus taught something different I would be very interested in the process by which you came to such a conclusion.  Are you open to discussions on this point?

Thanks

The Traveler

Dude, it was a joke.  But technically, it is possible to have no living family (if we define family as those related by blood or marriage).

[Fether]

If you travel with the sun, you will never need to observe the sabbath!

[Traveler]

52 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Good thoughts, but misses the point of my fascination a bit. I'll explain. I don't think it matters what day we worship as a whole. I do think it may matter if one worships on a different day than the whole. Setting aside the Sabbath as a day of worship has more to it than just our own worship. And, I believe, there's likely a great deal of power in the community as a whole worshiping together in various ways. That being said, if one literally CANNOT worship with the whole, the idea of a "lesser evil" (am I really opening that can of worms further) by worshiping on the wrong day instead of not worshiping at all strikes me as fascinating.

 

I will quote my mission president – Ivan J Barrett in addressing missionaries about fulfilling one’s calling or just navigating through life – “Your best is never good enough and good enough is never your best.”

What I was wondering through our discussions if you would reach the conclusion on your own (with some encouragement) that life is not really about finding the lessor of 2 evils as it is learning to be led by the spirit.

 

The Traveler