Is there a way past this?

[CommanderSouth]

I have been having some issues with my testimony, and at the recommendation of my wife, I have started a more thorough and intense reading of the Book of Mormon.  I started reading tonight in the introduction, and found myself knee jerking into doubt again.  I don't know that it matters about WHAT gave me pause,  just that I found myself thinking about how the whole thing is a sham based on this line or that line and how it relates to XYZ.  It made me think about my faith and how I have never truly been able to get past that.  I have never been of the mindset to assume the Book of Mormon is true.  I have always been of the one to read something I don't understand and knee jerk into "the whole things a fabrication."  It just worries me that in nearly 10 years and having been through the temple, I am really no farther along than I was at baptism.

I guess what I am asking is, does this ever get better, am I just not diligent enough?  I often worry that's the case.  I know there are things I MUST do better, but truthfully I feel most times I need to do better.

In any event, thanks for the insight!

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

So sorry you are struggling, but good job continuing to make an effort for reaching out.  I can't say if you are diligent enough, that is between you and the Lord.    

Have you tried Fair Mormon   fairmormon.org   When I had my crisis of faith, I spent a lot of time there.  Even though the things they address were very different than what I was dealing with, it was still time well spent.  I think the things they address are more related to what you are struggling with.  

Something else that really helped me was reading, The Crucible of Doubt by Terryl and Fiona Givens, and The God Who Weeps by the same authors.  You can get more great book recommendations at fairmormon.org   I believe the fact that you are still trying shows great faith on your part, so hold on to that and give yourself some credit.   

[Midwest LDS]

Thanks for sharing your struggles @CommanderSouth. I'm sorry you are having a difficult time accepting the Book of Mormon right now, but I'm glad you're putting in the effort to strengthen your testimony. I was lucky I suppose. I joined the church when I was 8, and I still remember the Lord telling me through the Holy Spirit that this is his church. I've had my share of struggles throughout this life, but I've always been able to fall back on that experience whenever any doubts have surfaced. It does get better☺. Here are two of the thoughts I had while thinking about your issues.

1. Don't quit the struggle! Many times answers to deeply held questions take time, effort, and sacrifice. Even though this is something you've struggled with since your baptism, the fact that you've stuck it out so far is pleasing to the Lord. I believe you can and will receive an answer to your concerns about the Book of Mormon, even though I can't tell you how long it will take. But hold on to what our Heavenly Father says in 2 Nephi 31:15 "And I heard a voice from the Father, saying: Yea, the words of my Beloved are true and faithful. He that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved." Salvation is promised to you as long as you don't quit!

2. I can't erase your doubts or your fears, but know that I know the Book of Mormon is a true record of scripture. It has been revealed to me by the power of the Holy Ghost, and I know the events that are recorded in it and the teachings it gives are true. I've seen the good that comes from living by it's principles, and I know that you will find an answer to your earnest prayers. God be with you in your search for truth brother.

Edited September 28, 2017 by Midwest LDS

[CV75]

4 hours ago, CommanderSouth said:

I have been having some issues with my testimony, and at the recommendation of my wife, I have started a more thorough and intense reading of the Book of Mormon.  I started reading tonight in the introduction, and found myself knee jerking into doubt again.  I don't know that it matters about WHAT gave me pause,  just that I found myself thinking about how the whole thing is a sham based on this line or that line and how it relates to XYZ.  It made me think about my faith and how I have never truly been able to get past that.  I have never been of the mindset to assume the Book of Mormon is true.  I have always been of the one to read something I don't understand and knee jerk into "the whole things a fabrication."  It just worries me that in nearly 10 years and having been through the temple, I am really no farther along than I was at baptism.

I guess what I am asking is, does this ever get better, am I just not diligent enough?  I often worry that's the case.  I know there are things I MUST do better, but truthfully I feel most times I need to do better.

In any event, thanks for the insight!

All I can offer is to ask God will help you have faith in Him and His Son, and to help you receive the of the Holy Ghost. As an act of faith, before your read the Book or Mormon, pray that you will understand the Lord's message to you. I wish you well!

[Vort]

4 hours ago, CommanderSouth said:

I started reading tonight in the introduction, and found myself knee jerking into doubt again.  I don't know that it matters about WHAT gave me pause,  just that I found myself thinking about how the whole thing is a sham based on this line or that line and how it relates to XYZ.  It made me think about my faith and how I have never truly been able to get past that.  I have never been of the mindset to assume the Book of Mormon is true.  I have always been of the one to read something I don't understand and knee jerk into "the whole things a fabrication."  It just worries me that in nearly 10 years and having been through the temple, I am really no farther along than I was at baptism.

I commend you for your self-awareness. The mindset with which we approach any book, or any thing, changes our perception of that thing. This is certainly true when we talk about spiritual matters, such as scripture study or family matters. For example, does it make a difference in how you perceive your children when you think of them as actors in the comedy of life vs. heirs of your actions and wisdom vs. pawns in a soulless societal system vs. more mouths to feed? Sure it does.

The following is not advice, just an idea. You may consider putting aside (for the time being) the entire question of historicity. It is a vital, even central, question, but for now set it aside. Don't tell yourself, "This is all false, made up, a bunch of hooey, Biblical snippets rewoven together," or whatever. Do not tell yourself, "This has to be literal truth! Otherwise it's all a sham!" Just let it be what it is. For the moment, whether it's true history or the product of imagination is irrelevant. Just let it be, and try to understand it on its own terms. Perhaps that will make some difference in how you receive the book.

[Just_A_Guy]

One thought:  There’s a difference between doubt and uncertainty.  We are told in scripture that faith and doubt cannot really coexist; whereas faith and uncertainty coexist quite a lot.  And I suspect that’s OK.  A big part of my job is getting in people’s faces and showing that they don’t really “know” what they thought they knew; and (for now!) I’ve made peace with the fact that for all my beliefs and conclusions I, too, “know” relatively little about pretty much any aspect of my life.  (Just yesterday I spent four hours researching a point of law I thought was pretty straightforward; and at the end of it I realized that a) the law on that point is pretty nebulous, and b) literally dozens of attorneys practicing in the same field as myself (and several judges) have been getting the point wrong for years.)  

There’s *always* going to be more information out there; some of which may necessitate some degree of paradigm shift—and openly acknowledging that will leave a lot of uncertainty in one’s life that may not completely resolve.  For me, this seems to be the case with religion as well.  When we talk about the truth claims of the LDS Church, I’m not sure I could honestly say I believe them any more deeply now than I did ten years ago (although, I hasten to add, I DO believe them).  But I am sure that, for all my flaws, I’m a better person now than I was ten years ago; and that transformation/refinement is largely due to my attempts to apply the Gospel’s precepts into my life.  That’s the core of my testimony at this point in my life—that while yes, the Gospel makes sense to me most of the time; the fundamental thing is that it works.

Edited September 28, 2017 by Just_A_Guy

[Jane_Doe]

5 hours ago, CommanderSouth said:

  I don't know that it matters about WHAT gave me pause,  just that I found myself thinking about how the whole thing is a sham based on this line or that line and how it relates to XYZ.  It made me think about my faith and how I have never truly been able to get past that.  I have never been of the mindset to assume the Book of Mormon is true.  I have always been of the one to read something I don't understand and knee jerk into "the whole things a fabrication."  It just worries me that in nearly 10 years and having been through the temple, I am really no farther along than I was at baptism.

Seeking clarification here: is the knee jerk reaction "it's not true" because you're not understanding it, or some other reason?

[The Folk Prophet]

33 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

One thought:  There’s a difference between doubt and uncertainty.  We are told in scripture that faith and doubt cannot really coexist; whereas faith and uncertainty coexist quite a lot.  And I suspect that’s OK.  

Just to expand on this thought: Faith and doubt do not co-exist because faith is, ultimately, more about trust and commitment than it is about belief. (Belief is a component, of course -- but not the end all). So many people equate faith with simple belief. I am convinced, myself, that faith is possible without belief -- but that's an unlikely scenario.

Anyhow, what it really comes down to is choice. We choose to believe or not. We choose to have faith or not. Despite uncertainties (and, frankly, despite the doubts we have), we can choose to set those aside and move forward on what we have experienced -- those glimmers of desire, hope, and light -- to exercise our faith to both believe, follow and act. We have been promised that when we do this (exercise faith) that our hearts will be filled then with greater desire, hope, and light (or, as sometimes described, with fruits from the tree we are nourishing), which leads on and on until the perfect day.

We don't need perfect understanding, knowledge, belief, faith, or confidence to move forward. 

Edited September 28, 2017 by The Folk Prophet

[anatess2]

It's kinda like life in general... if you wake up in the morning thinking, this day is gonna suck, you're going to be looking for ways for it to suck.  But if you wake up in the morning thinking, this day is gonna be great, you're going to be looking for ways for it to be great.  Usually, the same thing that made it seem sucky is the exact same thing that makes it great.  It's just a matter of the attitude of gratitude or some such.

For example - an earthquake caused the cement wall of the 2-story house next door to fall on top of our single-story house.  My cousins who are living there were so joyous in telling us that they were so grateful because the roof did not cave in which would have crushed them.  A few days later, a typhoon swept through the island.  My cousins were so joyous in telling us that they were so grateful because the roof did not fly off because there's a cement wall sitting on top of it.

Now, it would have been so easy for my cousins to see that cement wall as a disaster and cry about it.  But they didn't.  They saw the cement wall for what it is.  Just something that happened.  It's up to them to see it as good or bad according to where they are coming from.

Hope this helps.

[Fether]

5 hours ago, CommanderSouth said:

I have been having some issues with my testimony, and at the recommendation of my wife, I have started a more thorough and intense reading of the Book of Mormon.  I started reading tonight in the introduction, and found myself knee jerking into doubt again.  I don't know that it matters about WHAT gave me pause,  just that I found myself thinking about how the whole thing is a sham based on this line or that line and how it relates to XYZ.  It made me think about my faith and how I have never truly been able to get past that.  I have never been of the mindset to assume the Book of Mormon is true.  I have always been of the one to read something I don't understand and knee jerk into "the whole things a fabrication."  It just worries me that in nearly 10 years and having been through the temple, I am really no farther along than I was at baptism.

I guess what I am asking is, does this ever get better, am I just not diligent enough?  I often worry that's the case.  I know there are things I MUST do better, but truthfully I feel most times I need to do better.

In any event, thanks for the insight!

I had a conversation with a coworker yesterday and learned he had gotten only a week from being baptized. The reason he decide not to was because of a lack of historical evidence.

It is a hard case when one is seeing for hard evidence. The truth is his. There are Explanations for everything in the LDS church, but the church itself does not side itself with many of them because it has not been revealed by God to be true or no. For me, I realized that there’s being possible explanations was enough to cover my desire for historical proof.

All anti or doubt is based of unproven accusations. A lot of the truth is too, but like the doubt, the possible truth is just as believable as the possible falsehoods.

So are we going to be doubtful or faithful? 

Success in this is only poss Bow through faith

[person0]

@CommanderSouth,

When Joseph Smith was translating the Book of Mormon, and read within the book that there were walls around the city of Jerusalem, even he who saw God and Christ face to face immediately doubted and thought that he had possibly been deceived.  Only after Emma confirmed to him that Jerusalem was indeed surrounded by walls was he reconciled to the truth.  If a prophet who actually saw God and met with angels would doubt based on something so simple as the existence of walls, I can assume our occasional doubts are to be expected.

Quote

". . .one time while he was translating he stopped suddenly, pale as a sheet, and said, ‘Emma, did Jerusalem have walls around it?’ When I answered, ‘Yes,’ he replied, ‘Oh! [I didn’t know.] I was afraid I had been deceived.’ He had such a limited knowledge of history at that time that he did not even know that Jerusalem was surrounded by walls.”
(Edmund C. Briggs, “A Visit to Nauvoo in 1856,” Journal of History, Jan. 1916, p. 454.)

I have my doubts on occasion, but I also have a way to deal with them.  I am convinced that the Church is true, but if it's not true, then there is no God, and all religions are invented.  If the Book of Mormon as a whole were to be a fictitious invention, then so could Jesus as the Savior and everything else, just as easily.  Personally, I would rather believe that there is a God, and a Savior, and an afterlife.  When I doubt some historical fact, or this or that, I find myself realizing that it's not really worth it to focus on that thing, because if were to give in to my doubts, I would end up being an atheist, or at best agnostic, and I pretty much refuse to go there.  Also, when I consider that if Satan really exists he would want me to go there, that makes it even easier.  It's The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints or bust for me!

As others have mentioned, focus on things that do strengthen your testimony!  I remember when I received a spiritual confirmation of the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon.  I remember giving a blessing in which I was blessed to receive the Spirit to foretell to my friend that she would meet her husband that year; she did, and has been married to him for 5 years now, and going strong.  I remember giving a tour of the Church building to an investigator named Carlos and standing in front of the painting of the first vision and reciting it as we both looked on, and the power of the Spirit that filled our hearts and the room.  There is nothing that will ever be more convincing of the truthfulness of the gospel than moments like these.

There will always be things to doubt, but those things are merely incidental areas where we lack information.  The truth is revealed by the power of the Holy Ghost.  The only way you can effectively overcome your doubts in the long run is to receive witnesses of the Spirit of God.  However, even then, just as Joseph Smith experienced himself, from time to time you will still be faced with missing information and things that can be doubted.  In those times, you fall back on what you do know and what you have experienced.

[Traveler]

8 hours ago, CommanderSouth said:

I guess what I am asking is, does this ever get better, am I just not diligent enough?  I often worry that's the case.  I know there are things I MUST do better, but truthfully I feel most times I need to do better.

In any event, thanks for the insight!

 

It is my impression that we spend too much time trying to understand doctrine.  I think that a focus on doctrine will result in confusion and doubt.  It is also my observation that when there are disputes (for example on this very forum) that the disputations are all concerning doctrine. 

I would suggest that there is something much more important to center on.  I believe we should be more aware and more concerned with our covenants.  Many think the Book of Mormon is to help us better understand doctrine – well good luck with that thought.   Rather I believe the scriptures are a record of people and their covenants.  Mostly their covenant (conventional obedience or conventional disobedience) with G-d.

May I give an example?  I do not care that much about the doctrine of tithing.  Sure, it is interesting to discuss all the doctrine of tithing.  I once considered writing a pamphlet titled “Tithing Strategies for the Wealthy”.  Knowing the doctrine of tithing is not the most important aspect of tithing.  I do not think transferring money to the church and thinking it is tithing is that important either.  But having a covenant of tithing and being obedient to that covenant is what is important.  Just paying tithing is not the covenant.  It may be a surprise to some but – attending tithing settlement is just as important as paying tithing.  A person that does not attend tithing settlement is not being obedient to their covenant.  They may argue all kinds of points of doctrine – but if they do not make a covenant and stand obedient to the covenant they make they will not know the truth of the doctrine nor will they have the blessings of tithing.

My friend @CommanderSouth  – may I suggest that you read the Book of Mormon.  Not for doctrine but as a witness of covenant and a type and shadow for yourself and your covenant with G-d.  If you make covenant with G-d (Moroni 10:1-5) that G-d will manifest his covenant to you and as you are obedient to that covenant – your testimony will grow.  Do not read scripture for doctrine but read it as a covenant with G-d.

One time during a High Priest lesson a teacher asked why those there attended.  He specifically asked a member of our Stake Presidency that answered that he came to be inspired.   The teacher then asked if he ever was not inspired that he would quit coming?  The instructor then asked a gentleman that had been excommunicated why he came.  He answered – He came because he made a promise to G-d that he would attend priesthood meetings.

My suggestion is to live by covenant and not by doctrine.  Not that doctrine is useless – that is not what I am saying.  What I am saying is that your understanding of doctrine will always be seen in part but that the fullness of the Gospel is only realized by covenant – and if you are not experiencing a fullness then it is you covenant that need updating.

 

The Traveler

Edited September 28, 2017 by Traveler

[zil]

35 minutes ago, Traveler said:

I believe we should be more aware and more concerned with our covenants.

I'm not sure I agree with your thoughts on doctrine (or even anyone else's definition of the word), but I do like your post, what you say about covenants, and your idea of reading the scriptures from this perspective.  Thank you.

[Rob Osborn]

9 hours ago, CommanderSouth said:

I have been having some issues with my testimony, and at the recommendation of my wife, I have started a more thorough and intense reading of the Book of Mormon.  I started reading tonight in the introduction, and found myself knee jerking into doubt again.  I don't know that it matters about WHAT gave me pause,  just that I found myself thinking about how the whole thing is a sham based on this line or that line and how it relates to XYZ.  It made me think about my faith and how I have never truly been able to get past that.  I have never been of the mindset to assume the Book of Mormon is true.  I have always been of the one to read something I don't understand and knee jerk into "the whole things a fabrication."  It just worries me that in nearly 10 years and having been through the temple, I am really no farther along than I was at baptism.

I guess what I am asking is, does this ever get better, am I just not diligent enough?  I often worry that's the case.  I know there are things I MUST do better, but truthfully I feel most times I need to do better.

In any event, thanks for the insight!

I fear you are just clinging on to the iron rod and not holding fast. Holding fast to the iron rod requires a greater drive towards being obedient to the commandments and the living prophets 100%. The advice I have always lived by is to ask myself a few questions-1. Am I obedient to all the commandments. 2. Do I fully support the prophets and their counsel. 3. Do I treat my wife and children with the utmost care, love and respect. 4. Do I spend enough time in the service of others.

I have found that a failure in one or more of those areas will always lead to a loss of faith.

[laronius]

@CommanderSouth In the Lectures on Faith Joseph Smith made the following statement:

Lecture 6:7: "A religion that does not require the sacrifice of all things, never has power sufficient to produce the faith necessary unto life and salvation".

This is a critical principle to understand. Faith is a gift from God and comes, at least in part, in response to our willingness to sacrifice. When you were being taught the gospel there were certain commitments you had to make, certain changes you had to make in how you lived your life that were required for baptism. As you began to make these changes (in other words sacrificing your will to God's) you were blessed with the faith necessary to take that step into the waters of baptism. But for faith to continue to grow more sacrifices must be made. Perhaps there are bad habits to be forsaken, commitments of time to your calling or service that need to be made, attitudes towards certain people or principles that need adjustment, or any number of things that we all face in the gospel. If increased faith is what you are looking for I would strongly suggest you consider what you can sacrifice to God for it and then act accordingly. The greater the sacrifice the greater the response from God will be.

[Grunt]

Personally, I believe you're supposed to struggle with your faith.  As long as you are continuously working towards understanding, you're on the right path.  If you're working towards disproving, you aren't.

I'm a heathen, though, so take what I say with a grain (or pillar) of salt.

[Traveler]

3 hours ago, Grunt said:

Personally, I believe you're supposed to struggle with your faith.  As long as you are continuously working towards understanding, you're on the right path.  If you're working towards disproving, you aren't.

I'm a heathen, though, so take what I say with a grain (or pillar) of salt.

 

I was wondering how much you struggle with the idea that you're supposed to struggle?????

 

The Traveler

[Grunt]

39 minutes ago, Traveler said:

 

I was wondering how much you struggle with the idea that you're supposed to struggle?????

 

The Traveler

I'll struggle with this on my drive home.

[Traveler]

2 minutes ago, Grunt said:

I'll struggle with this on my drive home.

Interesting - I only struggle with things I do not quite understand.

 

The Traveler

[Grunt]

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

Interesting - I only struggle with things I do not quite understand.

 

The Traveler

I struggle with everything.  

[Traveler]

1 hour ago, Grunt said:

I struggle with everything.  

 

How has that worked out for you?  You must experience a lot of stress.  I have great difficulty comprehending how or why you could struggle with things you are not even aware of or of which you have no cognition – let alone a vast array of trivial things?

I have determined for myself – if I am going to struggle with something – it darn well better be worth it.  Since I am dyslexic I use to struggle with spelling.  Then I decided those individuals that only know one way to spell a word are uneducated - that can struggle with that.  So, if someone enjoys struggling over silly things – I will let them – I will selectively  struggle with just the more exciting things.

 

The Traveler