Next Apostle?

[Vort]

47 minutes ago, Maureen said:

I'm going to put my non-LDS prophetess abilities to the test and say the next apostle called will be 60ish, a white male and from Utah. ?

If I were something less than the magnificent specimen of manhood that I am, I might say that I kind of hope so, just to stick a thumb in the eye of those politically correct ninnies who keep whining about the whiteness and Americanness (not to mention maleness) of the apostles. Fortunately for everyone, I am far above such petty thoughts.

[prisonchaplain]

9 hours ago, laronius said:

 It is our belief that the Lord makes the choice and then inspires them to call that individual to serve in that capacity.

 

I do love this aspect of LDS church life--that leaders, and indeed all callings, are truly believed to initiate with the prompting of the Holy Spirit. If I were to train bishops, and other decision-makers in your faith, I'd remind them of the beauty of this belief, and encourage them to really take time to hear and discern what the Spirit is saying.

[prisonchaplain]

Some people...even on the left side of the aisle...are probably wishing that our current POTUS was a white, male, 60-ish, and from Utah.  Just sayin'!

[SilentOne]

In the spirit of making guesses for no reason other than to briefly feel cool if I'm right, I'll say Tad R. Callister, W. Craig Zwick, and Donald L. Hallstrom.

[seashmore]

On October 11, 2017 at 5:59 PM, prisonchaplain said:

I do love this aspect of LDS church life--that leaders, and indeed all callings, are truly believed to initiate with the prompting of the Holy Spirit. If I were to train bishops, and other decision-makers in your faith, I'd remind them of the beauty of this belief, and encourage them to really take time to hear and discern what the Spirit is saying.

Thank you, internet friend. As the Young Women's President in my branch, I needed this reminder.

[seashmore]

On October 11, 2017 at 9:05 PM, SilentOne said:

In the spirit of making guesses for no reason other than to briefly feel cool if I'm right, I'll say Tad R. Callister, W. Craig Zwick, and Donald L. Hallstrom.

Callister has a great apostolic sounding name, and Hallstrom has given some magnificent talks in the last few years. He also has kind of a Holland-esque stage (screen) presence...they would make a really cool hero-sidekick duo. "Holland and Hallstrom, at it again!" (Ok, the insomnia is making me silly.)

[Traveler]

On ‎10‎/‎11‎/‎2017 at 4:59 PM, prisonchaplain said:

I do love this aspect of LDS church life--that leaders, and indeed all callings, are truly believed to initiate with the prompting of the Holy Spirit. If I were to train bishops, and other decision-makers in your faith, I'd remind them of the beauty of this belief, and encourage them to really take time to hear and discern what the Spirit is saying.

We believe the calling is a little more than “spiritual” inclinations.   When we say that someone is called of G-d there are 3 elements or parts.  First – that a calling to serve is initiated by an individual holding the keys for who is to be called.  This can also include a quorum (or presidency) that must be unanimous.   In the case of an Apostle the new Apostle must be unanimously approved by all the other Apostles of the quorum. 

The second is that the Spirit will reveal or affirm to the person being called that they are being called by G-d.  As I understand most Traditional Christians initiate their calling much like selecting a career.

The third is that the congregation finalized the call by “sustaining” the person called – some think this is like a vote of approval but that would be incorrect the concept is that the spirit reveals to all that the calling is from G-d.  This does not need to be unanimous but those that do not approve can choose to not to sustain and make their spiritual promptings known through those holding the keys (priesthood leaders).  This is much like what Moses did in leading Israel – a kind of delegation.

In essence there are 3 levels of the prompting of the Holy Spirit when someone is called in the LDS church.

 

The Traveler

[JohnsonJones]

19 hours ago, Traveler said:

The second is that the Spirit will reveal or affirm to the person being called that they are being called by G-d.  As I understand most Traditional Christians initiate their calling much like selecting a career.

I don't know how all of them do it, but I LOVE how some of the Baptist talk about being called.  Many Baptists, unlike the Mormons, believe the LORD directly leads the congregation and the calling of leaders, rather than leaving it via men.  Therefore, when you are called to the work, the LORD calls you to the work.  They can feel it in their hearts and they are called to Preach the gospel.  This is why they have so many independent churches, all of which they feel is possible to be directly led by the Lord, rather than of men.  They can be united in some groups (for example, the Southern Baptist Convention), but each leader is supposed to have a direct relationship with the Lord. 

They have a similar idea of repentance and salvation, where it is the Lord who directly touches your heart and changes it, so that you follow him and your desire to sin ceases.

So, to contrast, in the LDS teaching, the Lord inspires our leaders to call those who going to serve via revelation.  In the Baptist religion, from what I understand, the Lord calls the individual directly, no other individual is needed.  This means there is a more orderly hierarchy/leadership chain in the LDS church where in the Baptist religion it is more composed of independent churches.

I can't say I believe in the Baptist religion or theology, but it is an interesting theology from what I understand.  It isn't just the LDS that believe in inspiration from heaven, I think the Baptist (and probably some other religions) have a deep belief in very similar things.

 

[Traveler]

12 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

I don't know how all of them do it, but I LOVE how some of the Baptist talk about being called.  Many Baptists, unlike the Mormons, believe the LORD directly leads the congregation and the calling of leaders, rather than leaving it via men.  Therefore, when you are called to the work, the LORD calls you to the work.  They can feel it in their hearts and they are called to Preach the gospel.  This is why they have so many independent churches, all of which they feel is possible to be directly led by the Lord, rather than of men.  They can be united in some groups (for example, the Southern Baptist Convention), but each leader is supposed to have a direct relationship with the Lord. 

They have a similar idea of repentance and salvation, where it is the Lord who directly touches your heart and changes it, so that you follow him and your desire to sin ceases.

So, to contrast, in the LDS teaching, the Lord inspires our leaders to call those who going to serve via revelation.  In the Baptist religion, from what I understand, the Lord calls the individual directly, no other individual is needed.  This means there is a more orderly hierarchy/leadership chain in the LDS church where in the Baptist religion it is more composed of independent churches.

I can't say I believe in the Baptist religion or theology, but it is an interesting theology from what I understand.  It isn't just the LDS that believe in inspiration from heaven, I think the Baptist (and probably some other religions) have a deep belief in very similar things.

 

 

I think we may be talking about two different things.  One being the gifts of the spirit which are divine connections that link mankind to divine instruction and guidance through various means and various individuals – a good example of this principle is outlined in Moroni Chapter 10.   -  Stating that the gifts of the spirit are manifested in different ways through different individuals but are for the benefit of all.

The other item is, in essence, organizational positions within the kingdom of G-d or specifically positions in the church – such as Sunday School teacher, organized charity within a congregation (Relief Society – president) or youth leader (minister).  The LDS doctrine and principle is that G-d will reveal to the person with the keys, (keys in respect to the kingdom) who is to be called and at the same time reveal to the individual that they will be called to serve in that capacity.  The example given in scripture (Article of Faith) is when Moses was told to call Aaron into service to help gather Israel and at the same time Aaron was given revelation to go help Moses.   The difference here is that the organization that G-d uses for his work among man is called a Kingdom and is a structured organization with apostles, prophets, teachers and other “officers” that are called to serve within that “Kingdom”.

In our modern society, we do not refer to the kingdom as much as we do “The Church” which brings organization to the official congregation(s) that are organized (ordered) and established by G-d.  I have no problem with men organizing to do good – but I do object when men organize themselves and call it the G-d’s.  Just as there is only one true and living G-d – there is only one true and living Kingdom of G-d or Church.

 

The Traveler

[omegaseamaster75]

On 10/11/2017 at 2:29 PM, Maureen said:

I'm going to put my non-LDS prophetess abilities to the test and say the next apostle called will be 60ish, a white male and from Utah. ?

M.

We have a winner!

[Anddenex]

I made my guess on a different thread but will share here also:

1) Elder Robbins (Anyone from the Presidency of the Seventy for that matter)

2) BYU President - Kevin J Worthen (this has happened more than once, or at least someone who has served in this position)

3) BYUI President - Henry J. Eyring (this has already happened before, or at least someone who has served in this position)

But I am going to go all out on this one and say it will be someone from the current General Authorities of the Church

[JohnsonJones]

I'm thinking there needs to be a vetting process, but if their name starts with a C and they've been a general authority, I think they are warranting a closer look.

However, the true people who know who is exactly being looked at (at least the preliminary records) would be those responsible for the background vetting at the COB, if they've gotten submissions yet.

As it is so far out right now, probably won't have any definitive answers in that regards until at least a few weeks (if that) prior to April, though it could be solidly forming by December/January...

Those are my thoughts right now...which means, even if someone is being looked at, it could end up being literally anyone from hundreds of choices (afterall, if a seventy or another is not affirmed to be the right choice by the Lord, then there are the area seventies, then districts, then Mission presidents and temple presidents...former MP and TP, etc...etc...etc.).  Who knows, it may even be someone no one here as ever heard of...

[Vort]

Hyrum Smith was obviously a towering figure in Church history, though we don't really say much about him these days. He was undoubtedly Joseph Smith's right hand; had he survived the murders at Carthage, he would have taken leadership of the Church.

Brigham Young called Hyrum's son, Joseph F(ielding) Smith, as an apostle in 1866. In turn, before his death, President Smith called his own son, Joseph Fielding Smith, as an apostle. Joseph Fielding Smith died in July 1972; his son-in-law, Bruce R. McConkie, with whom President Smith was very close, was ordained an apostle three months later, in October 1972. When Elder McConkie died in April 1985, he was replaced at the October General Conference by M. Russell Ballard -- who is himself a descendent of Hyrum Smith, though not through the same line.

Thus, except for the 24 years between Hyrum's assassination in 1842 and Joseph F. (Sr.)'s ordination as apostle in 1866, and then again for the 13 years between Joseph Fielding (Jr.)'s death in 1972 and Elder Ballard's ordination in 1985, Hyrum has been represented continuously in the highest councils of the Church, either by himself or by his descendants, from Hyrum's ordination in 1841 until the present day. If we include Elder McConkie as part of that period, the latter 13-year period all but vanishes.

Thankfully, Elder Ballard appears to be in great health, but he's no spring chicken. Maybe it's time to get another Hyrumite in there.

[pam]

On 10/11/2017 at 7:16 AM, laronius said:

p.s. I take my hat off to you @prisonchaplain sounds like you are doing great work (even if you aren't a Mormon)

PC is just a dry Mormon. 

[Maureen]

18 hours ago, Vort said:

...Brigham Young called Hyrum's son, Joseph F(ielding) Smith, as an apostle in 1866. In turn, before his death, President Smith called his own son, Joseph Fielding Smith, as an apostle. Joseph Fielding Smith died in July 1972; his son-in-law, Bruce R. McConkie, with whom President Smith was very close, was ordained an apostle three months later, in October 1972. When Elder McConkie died in April 1985, he was replaced at the October General Conference by M. Russell Ballard -- who is himself a descendent of Hyrum Smith, though not through the same line....

I think that's called nepotism. (just teasing) ?

M.

[Vort]

To be clear, I was not in earnest about needing another "Hyrumite" among the Twelve. I just thought it was interesting that Hyrum has been so consistently represented in the highest councils of the Church -- moreso, considering Joseph's posterity are for the most part not even Latter-day Saints.

Years ago, someone introduced me to the concept of a "family calling" or a "chosen line", where a lineal descent might have the calling to some ministry. While I am not convinced this is a true principle, I am by no means convinced of the opposite. I think it might be a true principle, and perhaps not only (or even primarily) with things like Church leadership callings, but with much more seemingly mundane stuff that might ultimately have a greater impact -- things like, I don't know, missionary work, or exercising the gift of healing through medical means, or something along those lines. But that's all strictly speculative.

[JohnsonJones]

26 minutes ago, Maureen said:

I think that's called nepotism. (just teasing) ?

M.

I believe it's a fulfillment of a little know prophecy that I heard (but I can't seem to find in the D&C right now, so probably not doctrine) to the effect that the descendants of Joseph's line would be leaders in the church (and I can't recall right now, but I'm not sure if it specifies if that refers to Jr. Or Sr.  If it is Sr. than it actually follows another pattern that I might bring up in my personal thread that is around here somewhere).  Some of the prophecies that people related to Joseph Smith Jr. actually apply to the line of his father, which is interesting in seeing the fulfillment of those prophecies typically occurring via Hyrum Smith's line (which actually makes a lot of sense if one looks at patriarchy) in some ways.

That's not saying there will always be a descendant of the Smith's in the Church Leadership or General Authorities, but having them there could be seen as a fulfillment of prophecy of sorts.

Edited October 27, 2017 by JohnsonJones

[P_Day]

Updated predictions

President of Church: President Nelson (not a given)

Counselors: Presidents Eyring and Uchtdorf retained

14th Apostle: 1 from among Elders Nash, Pearson, Perkins, or Pieper

15th Apostle: 1 from among Elders Gonzalez, Kearon, Soares, or Uceda

[omegaseamaster75]

On 10/4/2017 at 4:39 PM, omegaseamaster75 said:

My vote is for Christensen, but I have a bias he was my mission president.....

I think my pick just went up a notch in the rankings

[omegaseamaster75]

1 hour ago, P_Day said:

Updated predictions

President of Church: President Nelson (not a given)

 

How is this not a given, baring death?

[Just_A_Guy]

6 minutes ago, omegaseamaster75 said:

How is this not a given, baring death?

It’s generally logical that if a person is qualified to lead the Q12 as its president, he’s also qualified to lead the Church as Presiding High Priest; and for the Q12 to name any other individual as Church president could easily be interpreted as something of a no-confidence vote.

But, hypothetically speaking—could it happen?  Sure.  If, for example, President Nelson were undeniably unable to serve as Church president due to—say—being in a persistent vegetative state; I could easily see the Q12 designating the next-senior apostle while leaving Nelson as the titular President of the Q12.

[P_Day]

53 minutes ago, omegaseamaster75 said:

How is this not a given, baring death?

It's not technically a requirement that it be the most senior Apostle, but that's the way it's been throughout the history of the Church. The only requirement is unanimity among the 14 Quorum members.

[e-eye]

Elder Nelson and Elder Oaks were set apart as apostles the same day with Elder Nelson being set apart ahead of Elder Oaks.  Elder Nelson still has a lot of energy left so he may have a handful of good years left in him however, he could also go quickly if the Lord called him home.  I noticed a change in Elder Nelson when he took Elder Packers place in the Quorum of the 12 apostles, and you could almost see his mantle and stature increase.  

As for the two new apostles that will be interesting to see. There will be  a lot of young/er blood in the quorum with most likely  7 members under 70.  

[NightSG]

1 hour ago, P_Day said:

It's not technically a requirement that it be the most senior Apostle, but that's the way it's been throughout the history of the Church. The only requirement is unanimity among the 14 Quorum members.

And I'd think that, considering President Monson's general character, the one being called might be the one least inclined to vote in his own favor.  Those are going to be some very hard shoes to fill, and I think all those in line are fully aware of it.

Which is why I'm thinking their best bet is to surprise the heck out of everybody and call prisonchaplain.  He doesn't get a vote in it, (in fact, as long as nobody baptises him, he won't even get a vote in sustaining himself later) so he can't keep himself out.  

[SilentOne]

Since it's likely the new apostles will be sustained in about a week, I think it appropriate to bump this thread.

Edited March 23, 2018 by SilentOne