Gentle Parenting

[JoCa]

27 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

*sigh*

I think I'm leaving the forum. I'm so tired of being made to constantly feel bad. It just isn't worth it. I just don't need this in my life and don't feel like what I'm trying to offer registers with anyone.

Maybe it's just my mood lately. But I cannot deal with feeling discouraged all the time because of conversations I'm trying to have here.

So....later......maybe.

I was not commenting to make you or anyone else feel bad. I think there are a lot of good things in the thread and the article.  My sincere apologies, I was attempting to disagree without being disagreeable.  My fault if that did not happen.

[The Folk Prophet]

@JoCa, it is not a response to a single comment. The only relation your comment had to my decision is the fact that I don't agree with it fully, and I realized that I do not have any interest in what, I feel confident, will simply turn into another pointless debate.

When I step into a doctrinal/religious discussion in an effort to defend what I believe to be a principle of the Gospel I expect the drama. That does not mean that it doesn't wear upon me, however.

But I started this thread because I found a concept that truly excited me, and whereas (as should be obvious from my first post) I felt there were potential problems with it, I expected reasoned, respectable discussion. What I have gotten instead is constant holier-than-thou condescending diatribes. I made efforts to clarify how and why the ideas appealed to me, but to no avail -- more condescension and holier-than-thou-ness. I don't want or need that in my life! (Interestingly enough, the only one who even seemed to begin to see it my way was someone who I often find myself at odds with.)

I felt my spirit uplifted as read through the principles presented in Gentle Parenting. I felt like it was an answer to some prayers I've had, in fact, concerning the raising of my child. I was excited and looked forward to friendly, useful parenting discussions. What ensued was unfriendly, useless strictures. Apparently anyone who's procreated now thinks they're the bees-knees experts and anyone who views it differently is a moron for daring to not trust their all-knowing experience.

Well...I'm getting riled up again. But all of that is so unnecessary. Has anyone changed their minds? I haven't. I know what kind of parent I'm going to be, know what kind of relationships I want with my children, know how I'm going to approach this. And others telling me things I'm considering are stupid doesn't sway me a bit, nor, I am confident, does my explanation of why I see it the way I do sway them. So what's the use here?

And then, of course, the fact that it's been unpleasant was, is, and will be my fault again. Of course. I'm just being too sensitive.

Okay. Well...then I'm too sensitive. So be it. Either way, it is unpleasant and I am just not enjoying myself. So my fault or not...I'm taking a break at the very least.

I know, full well, it is a flaw of internet communication as much as anything. I'm not holding grudges. I know I have, do, and will offend people in the same way. But in the end, I do not feel I'm getting anything out of my interactions here (except what amounts to spending time that could be better spent otherwise) and if I am helping anyone else get much out of it, it feels few and far between at best. So it amounts to entertainment. But it is a hurtful, unpleasant, detriment-to-the-soul sort of entertainment most of the time.

So I'm going on a...we'll call it a...sabbatical. Maybe I'll write a book or something.

Rant over.

Edited October 12, 2017 by The Folk Prophet

[Grunt]

5 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

@JoCa, it is not a response to a single comment. The only relation your comment had to my decision is the fact that I don't agree with it fully, and I realized that I do not have any interest in what, I feel confident, will simply turn into another pointless debate.

When I step into a doctrinal/religious discussion in an effort to defend what I believe to be a principle of the Gospel I expect the drama. That does not mean that it doesn't wear upon me, however.

But I started this thread because I found a concept that truly excited me, and whereas (as should be obvious from my first post) I felt there were potential problems with it, I expected reasoned, respectable discussion. What I have gotten instead is constant holier-than-thou condescending diatribes. I made efforts to clarify how and why the ideas appealed to me, but to no avail -- more condescension and holier-than-thou-ness. I don't want or need that in my life! (Interestingly enough, the only one who even seemed to begin to see it my way was someone who I often find myself at odds with.)

I felt my spirit uplifted as read through the principles presented in Gentle Parenting. I felt like it was an answer to some prayers I've had, in fact, concerning the raising of my child. I was excited and looked forward to friendly, useful parenting discussions. What ensued was unfriendly, useless strictures. Apparently anyone who's procreated now thinks they're the bees-knees experts and anyone who views it differently is a moron for daring to not trust their all-knowing experience.

Well...I'm getting riled up again. But all of that is so unnecessary. Has anyone changed their minds? I haven't. I know what kind of parent I'm going to be, know what kind of relationships I want with my children, know how I'm going to approach this. And others telling me things I'm considering are stupid doesn't sway me a bit, nor, I am confident, does my explanation of why I see it the way I do sway them. So what's the use here?

And then, of course, the fact that it's been unpleasant was, is, and will be my fault again. Of course. I'm just being too sensitive.

Okay. Well...then I'm too sensitive. So be it. Either way, it is unpleasant and I am just not enjoying myself. So my fault or not...I'm taking a break at the very least.

I know, full well, it is a flaw of internet communication as much as anything. I'm not holding grudges. I know I have, do, and will offend people in the same way. But in the end, I do not feel I'm getting anything out of my interactions here (except what amounts to spending time that could be better spent otherwise) and if I am helping anyone else get much out of it, it feels few and far between at best. So it amounts to entertainment. But it is a hurtful, unpleasant, detriment-to-the-soul sort of entertainment most of the time.

So I'm going on a...we'll call it a...sabbatical. Maybe I'll write a book or something.

Rant over.

  Maybe look inward?  

[mordorbund]

11 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

@JoCa, it is not a response to a single comment. The only relation your comment had to my decision is the fact that I don't agree with it fully, and I realized that I do not have any interest in what, I feel confident, will simply turn into another pointless debate.

When I step into a doctrinal/religious discussion in an effort to defend what I believe to be a principle of the Gospel I expect the drama. That does not mean that it doesn't wear upon me, however.

But I started this thread because I found a concept that truly excited me, and whereas (as should be obvious from my first post) I felt there were potential problems with it, I expected reasoned, respectable discussion. What I have gotten instead is constant holier-than-thou condescending diatribes. I made efforts to clarify how and why the ideas appealed to me, but to no avail -- more condescension and holier-than-thou-ness. I don't want or need that in my life! (Interestingly enough, the only one who even seemed to begin to see it my way was someone who I often find myself at odds with.)

I felt my spirit uplifted as read through the principles presented in Gentle Parenting. I felt like it was an answer to some prayers I've had, in fact, concerning the raising of my child. I was excited and looked forward to friendly, useful parenting discussions. What ensued was unfriendly, useless strictures. Apparently anyone who's procreated now thinks they're the bees-knees experts and anyone who views it differently is a moron for daring to not trust their all-knowing experience.

Well...I'm getting riled up again. But all of that is so unnecessary. Has anyone changed their minds? I haven't. I know what kind of parent I'm going to be, know what kind of relationships I want with my children, know how I'm going to approach this. And others telling me things I'm considering are stupid doesn't sway me a bit, nor, I am confident, does my explanation of why I see it the way I do sway them. So what's the use here?

And then, of course, the fact that it's been unpleasant was, is, and will be my fault again. Of course. I'm just being too sensitive.

Okay. Well...then I'm too sensitive. So be it. Either way, it is unpleasant and I am just not enjoying myself. So my fault or not...I'm taking a break at the very least.

I know, full well, it is a flaw of internet communication as much as anything. I'm not holding grudges. I know I have, do, and will offend people in the same way. But in the end, I do not feel I'm getting anything out of my interactions here (except what amounts to spending time that could be better spent otherwise) and if I am helping anyone else get much out of it, it feels few and far between at best. So it amounts to entertainment. But it is a hurtful, unpleasant, detriment-to-the-soul sort of entertainment most of the time.

So I'm going on a...we'll call it a...sabbatical. Maybe I'll write a book or something.

Rant over.

I believe you've just experienced a facet of mom guilt. This particular variety is exacerbated by frequenting parenting forums and finding out you're doing it wrong.

• If you can't breast feed then you're a failure
• If you don't breast feed then you're a monster
• If you make anyone feel bad for not breast feeding then you're a nazi
• if you breast feed for too long then you're icky
• if you put a bumper on the crib you'll suffocate your child
• if you don't put a bumper on the crib your child will die in the bars
• why are you putting your child in a crib?! your baby belongs in the bed with you!!!!!
• BECAUSE I VALUE MY SLEEP AND DON'T WANT TO SMOTHER THE BABY!!!!!!
• NO!!! YOU'RE WHAT'S WRONG WITH THE RISING GENERATION!!!!!!!!!!!!11!!!!11!!!

[zil]

4 minutes ago, mordorbund said:

I believe you've just experienced a facet of mom guilt. This particular variety is exacerbated by frequenting parenting forums and finding out you're doing it wrong.

• If you can't breast feed then you're a failure
• If you don't breast feed then you're a monster
• If you make anyone feel bad for not breast feeding then you're a nazi
• if you breast feed for too long then you're icky
• if you put a bumper on the crib you'll suffocate your child
• if you don't put a bumper on the crib your child will die in the bars
• why are you putting your child in a crib?! your baby belongs in the bed with you!!!!!
• BECAUSE I VALUE MY SLEEP AND DON'T WANT TO SMOTHER THE BABY!!!!!!
• NO!!! YOU'RE WHAT'S WRONG WITH THE RISING GENERATION!!!!!!!!!!!!11!!!!11!!!

Let's face it, life would likely be better if we didn't spend so much time with each other.

[mordorbund]

Just now, zil said:

Let's face it, life would likely be better if we didn't spend so much time with each other.

Then how will I ever get socialized??!!?!?!?!?!?!!?!!!?!!!!?!??!!?!?

[zil]

Just now, mordorbund said:

Then how will I ever get socialized??!!?!?!?!?!?!!?!!!?!!!!?!??!!?!?

I've recently given up entirely on the idea that I will ever get socialized¹.  I'm pondering the best ways to embrace my inner cyborg.

¹ Apparently, though, once you're old enough, your options are either to be really, really rich, or to have socialized medicine crammed down your throat.  I'm hoping to die suddenly shortly before I have to fill out the paperwork.   The biggest problem with my plan is that it's possible the next life has even more people in it...

[anatess2]

16 hours ago, LiterateParakeet said:

Not ALL parents.    Not the atheists, the Jewish parents, the Muslim parents, or the abusive, neglectful parents . . .  

I disagree.  These guys ESPECIALLY require Christlike values. 

16 hours ago, LiterateParakeet said:

I disagree.  What you are saying only works if the method before is PERFECT, and none of us are perfect.  Therefore, we should always be prayerfully seeking improvement.  If we feel guided to pursue a different parenting style, then we should do it.  If what you are doing works for you, then stick with it.  But some of us needed something more than what has been done before.  I'm not defending Gentle Parenting, in particular, simply the idea of prayerfully doing something different with our parenting than our own parents or friends have done.  This is how we grow.  

I think you misunderstood what I said.  Prayerfully seeking guidance is another requirement.  If we feel guided to pursue a different approach then of course we pursue a different approach.  We don't usually tell another parent (and highly unlikely to all parents) to do that same approach with their children even if we did have confirmation from the Spirit that that's what we need to do.  We simply point them to the "template" (gospel principles).

 

Edited October 12, 2017 by anatess2

[anatess2]

13 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

@JoCa, it is not a response to a single comment. The only relation your comment had to my decision is the fact that I don't agree with it fully, and I realized that I do not have any interest in what, I feel confident, will simply turn into another pointless debate.

When I step into a doctrinal/religious discussion in an effort to defend what I believe to be a principle of the Gospel I expect the drama. That does not mean that it doesn't wear upon me, however.

But I started this thread because I found a concept that truly excited me, and whereas (as should be obvious from my first post) I felt there were potential problems with it, I expected reasoned, respectable discussion. What I have gotten instead is constant holier-than-thou condescending diatribes. I made efforts to clarify how and why the ideas appealed to me, but to no avail -- more condescension and holier-than-thou-ness. I don't want or need that in my life! (Interestingly enough, the only one who even seemed to begin to see it my way was someone who I often find myself at odds with.)

I felt my spirit uplifted as read through the principles presented in Gentle Parenting. I felt like it was an answer to some prayers I've had, in fact, concerning the raising of my child. I was excited and looked forward to friendly, useful parenting discussions. What ensued was unfriendly, useless strictures. Apparently anyone who's procreated now thinks they're the bees-knees experts and anyone who views it differently is a moron for daring to not trust their all-knowing experience.

Well...I'm getting riled up again. But all of that is so unnecessary. Has anyone changed their minds? I haven't. I know what kind of parent I'm going to be, know what kind of relationships I want with my children, know how I'm going to approach this. And others telling me things I'm considering are stupid doesn't sway me a bit, nor, I am confident, does my explanation of why I see it the way I do sway them. So what's the use here?

And then, of course, the fact that it's been unpleasant was, is, and will be my fault again. Of course. I'm just being too sensitive.

Okay. Well...then I'm too sensitive. So be it. Either way, it is unpleasant and I am just not enjoying myself. So my fault or not...I'm taking a break at the very least.

I know, full well, it is a flaw of internet communication as much as anything. I'm not holding grudges. I know I have, do, and will offend people in the same way. But in the end, I do not feel I'm getting anything out of my interactions here (except what amounts to spending time that could be better spent otherwise) and if I am helping anyone else get much out of it, it feels few and far between at best. So it amounts to entertainment. But it is a hurtful, unpleasant, detriment-to-the-soul sort of entertainment most of the time.

So I'm going on a...we'll call it a...sabbatical. Maybe I'll write a book or something.

Rant over.

TFP, I apologize if I sounded holier-than-thou.  I was simply telling you what I think about the article.  

At the risk of making this worse for you than it already is, I think this bears saying - I don't have to agree with you to value your perspective.  It's probably better if you try not to expect people to see what you see in something.  My husband and I have been together for over 20 years and even then he thinks something is so bom-diggity and I'm like, meh.  He tries to explain to me why it's so bom-diggity and I'm still, meh.  We're just different people with different experiences and different perspectives that colors how we see things.  You have your platform, I have my platform we go talk to each other so we can promote each of our own platforms even if in the end we didn't convince anybody.

Like today, I was super surprised to learn that several of my American friends (they claim all Americans agree with them) consider Puerto Ricans "brown people".  I'm like, huh?  They're white people!  So, we looked it up - I see the fact that the average Puerto Rican DNA is 66% European as "they're white people" while my friends see the 34% non-European as "they're brown people".  We couldn't convince each other of the other's perspective.

 

2 hours ago, mordorbund said:

I believe you've just experienced a facet of mom guilt. This particular variety is exacerbated by frequenting parenting forums and finding out you're doing it wrong.

• If you can't breast feed then you're a failure
• If you don't breast feed then you're a monster
• If you make anyone feel bad for not breast feeding then you're a nazi
• if you breast feed for too long then you're icky
• if you put a bumper on the crib you'll suffocate your child
• if you don't put a bumper on the crib your child will die in the bars
• why are you putting your child in a crib?! your baby belongs in the bed with you!!!!!
• BECAUSE I VALUE MY SLEEP AND DON'T WANT TO SMOTHER THE BABY!!!!!!
• NO!!! YOU'RE WHAT'S WRONG WITH THE RISING GENERATION!!!!!!!!!!!!11!!!!11!!!

This!  I hated this when I had my children.  I was going crazy in the Mommy and Me place because everytime I leave that place I feared my baby is going to grow up to be a serial killer if he even makes it to his 3rd birthday.

 

 

Edited October 12, 2017 by anatess2

[JoCa]

1 hour ago, anatess2 said:

Like today, I was super surprised to learn that several of my American friends (they claim all Americans agree with them) consider Puerto Ricans "brown people".  I'm like, huh?  They're white people!  So, we looked it up - I see the fact that the average Puerto Rican DNA is 66% European as "they're white people" while my friends see the 34% non-European as "they're brown people".  

I would probably consider many puerto ricans "white" and many of them mestizo; it probably really just depends on the individual.  But I consider most Argentines "white".  There are a good bit of mestizos and indigenous but a significant majority of the population is of direct Italian/Spanish/German ancestry. 

[anatess2]

17 minutes ago, JoCa said:

I would probably consider many puerto ricans "white" and many of them mestizo; it probably really just depends on the individual.  But I consider most Argentines "white".  There are a good bit of mestizos and indigenous but a significant majority of the population is of direct Italian/Spanish/German ancestry. 

By the way, the same friends consider Texans white people.  Texas is one of those states where white people (as opposed to mixed-race) is a minority.

Edited October 12, 2017 by anatess2

[Vort]

1 hour ago, anatess2 said:

Like today, I was super surprised to learn that several of my American friends (they claim all Americans agree with them) consider Puerto Ricans "brown people".

I don't understand this. The only people I know who classify others as "brown people" also classify themselves as "brown people". And they are a small minority of my friends. Though maybe that says more about who my friends are than the prevalence of Americans who classify people by their brownness (or lack thereof).

[anatess2]

7 minutes ago, Vort said:

I don't understand this. The only people I know who classify others as "brown people" also classify themselves as "brown people". And they are a small minority of my friends. Though maybe that says more about who my friends are than the prevalence of Americans who classify people by their brownness (or lack thereof).

If you must know, they were telling me that "Trump doesn't care about brown people" (that's a word-for-word direct quote) because of his tweet this morning.  And yes, they're LDS.  And yes, they all said Trump is a Nazi white supremacist.  And that's why Texans are white.  And yes, I don't understand it either.  "Brown people" is not a phrase I (who would be a brown person in their estimation), or any of my "brown" friends use to call any ethnic group including ourselves.

If we're gonna call Puerto Ricans an ethnicity we'd call them Hispanics (which can be white, black, or any color in between).

Edited October 12, 2017 by anatess2

[Guest Godless]

2 hours ago, Vort said:

I don't understand this. The only people I know who classify others as "brown people" also classify themselves as "brown people". And they are a small minority of my friends. Though maybe that says more about who my friends are than the prevalence of Americans who classify people by their brownness (or lack thereof).

This has been my experience as well, and that includes a few Puerto Rican individuals I know here in town who have been quite loose with the "Trump hates brown people" line lately. My guess is that even though they appear white, they don't want to lump themselves in with pure European white identity. It's always been my experience that Puerto Ricans feel like the red-headed stepchildren of the US, so it doesn't surprise me in the least that they might want to distance themselves from white American culture. That's just speculation on my part though. I could be way off-base.  

[anatess2]

2 hours ago, Godless said:

This has been my experience as well, and that includes a few Puerto Rican individuals I know here in town who have been quite loose with the "Trump hates brown people" line lately. My guess is that even though they appear white, they don't want to lump themselves in with pure European white identity. It's always been my experience that Puerto Ricans feel like the red-headed stepchildren of the US, so it doesn't surprise me in the least that they might want to distance themselves from white American culture. That's just speculation on my part though. I could be way off-base.  

I don't think you're off-base.  I'm fairly certain this is why they vote down every opportunity for statehood.

[JohnsonJones]

2 hours ago, anatess2 said:

I don't think you're off-base.  I'm fairly certain this is why they vote down every opportunity for statehood.

Actually, they voted to BE a state whenever given the chance from what I've heard.  In fact, even in the most recent vote this year (I believe it was June 2017), for those that voted, it was 97% voted for statehood.  They have voted consistently for statehood ever since 2012 (now prior to 2000 I believe many voted to NOT have statehood, which is where your outdated information may be coming from).

It's not the Puerto Ricans who aren't asking for Statehood, it's the Federal Government that is not granting it to them.

Ironically, I believe they have more US citizens in P.R. than several US states...or had until the hurricane at least.

Adding: In that light, they were going to have a vote this month on it again to try to have a better turnout to hopefully better be able to convince Congress to make them a state finally (which would promptly be ignored like everything from Puerto Rico gets ignored by Congress), but with the devastation here and trying to recover...I have an impression that isn't going to happen like planned).

Edited October 13, 2017 by JohnsonJones

[anatess2]

10 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

Actually, they voted to BE a state whenever given the chance from what I've heard.  In fact, even in the most recent vote this year (I believe it was June 2017), for those that voted, it was 97% voted for statehood.  They have voted consistently for statehood ever since 2012 (now prior to 2000 I believe many voted to NOT have statehood, which is where your outdated information may be coming from).

It's not the Puerto Ricans who aren't asking for Statehood, it's the Federal Government that is not granting it to them.

Ironically, I believe they have more US citizens in P.R. than several US states...or had until the hurricane at least.

Adding: In that light, they were going to have a vote this month on it again to try to have a better turnout to hopefully better be able to convince Congress to make them a state finally (which would promptly be ignored like everything from Puerto Rico gets ignored by Congress), but with the devastation here and trying to recover...I have an impression that isn't going to happen like planned).

I don't think this is accurate.  Statehood measures in PR have always failed even with Obama going full throttle for it (PR is a majority Democrat island).  The referendum last June was boycotted by the Puerto Ricans so the 97% result is misleading. 

There's just not that much interest in Statehood.  First in my opinion is because they don't really care to lose their cultural identity and 2nd because they don't really care to pay Federal taxes.  

Edited October 13, 2017 by anatess2

[JohnsonJones]

1 hour ago, anatess2 said:

I don't think this is accurate.  Statehood measures in PR have always failed even with Obama going full throttle for it (PR is a majority Democrat island).  The referendum last June was boycotted by the Puerto Ricans so the 97% result is misleading. 

There's just not that much interest in Statehood.  First in my opinion is because they don't really care to lose their cultural identity and 2nd because they don't really care to pay Federal taxes.  

It was not boycotted.  That's an absurd statement from someone who probably didn't even know it happened (From your previous statement you made).  AS I said, they've voted for statehood consistently from 2012.  The turnout was so low last time, for several reasons.  Number 1 is probably because, they had a good turnout for 2012...and other votes for statehood have had large turnouts.  Every single one of them have been ignored by the US congress.  After 5 years, there comes a point that people start to wonder if anyone is ever going to listen to them and if it's worth saying it over and over and over and over and over and over again while being ignored.

Secondly, there was some contesting of the language of the questions.  It was seen as if they were trying to twist it so people accidentally voted for independence, and there was no commonwealth option if people chose to vote for that, which was then added I believe at the last minute, but poorly worded as well.

From how you didn't even know that the Puerto Ricans were voting for statehood I think you don't really know much about the issue (considering your last mistaken statement prior to this), but are trying to color it with your own bias.

The biggest barrier to statehood is not Puerto Ricans, but the US congress not wanting to grant statehood to Puerto Rico.  They've given every excuse under the moon (and now it's them saying it's the 70 billion dollar debt...when compared to what the US govt. spends normally anways...that's a drop in the bucket...heck if the US govt is willing to help out California in their budgetary problems...it should be a no brainer to help PR).

The Hurricane hitting hasn't helped at all, but Puerto Rico WANTS statehood.  It's the US govt (and possibly people with the same attitude as you've exhibited that try to paint P.R. as expressing opinions the exact opposite of what is prevalent currently in P.R.) that do not want P.R. to have statehood.

[anatess2]

2 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

It was not boycotted.  That's an absurd statement from someone who probably didn't even know it happened (From your previous statement you made).  AS I said, they've voted for statehood consistently from 2012.  The turnout was so low last time, for several reasons.  Number 1 is probably because, they had a good turnout for 2012...and other votes for statehood have had large turnouts.  Every single one of them have been ignored by the US congress.  After 5 years, there comes a point that people start to wonder if anyone is ever going to listen to them and if it's worth saying it over and over and over and over and over and over again while being ignored.

Secondly, there was some contesting of the language of the questions.  It was seen as if they were trying to twist it so people accidentally voted for independence, and there was no commonwealth option if people chose to vote for that, which was then added I believe at the last minute, but poorly worded as well.

From how you didn't even know that the Puerto Ricans were voting for statehood I think you don't really know much about the issue (considering your last mistaken statement prior to this), but are trying to color it with your own bias.

The biggest barrier to statehood is not Puerto Ricans, but the US congress not wanting to grant statehood to Puerto Rico.  They've given every excuse under the moon (and now it's them saying it's the 70 billion dollar debt...when compared to what the US govt. spends normally anways...that's a drop in the bucket...heck if the US govt is willing to help out California in their budgetary problems...it should be a no brainer to help PR).

The Hurricane hitting hasn't helped at all, but Puerto Rico WANTS statehood.  It's the US govt (and possibly people with the same attitude as you've exhibited that try to paint P.R. as expressing opinions the exact opposite of what is prevalent currently in P.R.) that do not want P.R. to have statehood.

Dude, seriously?  There was only a 20% turnout for the referendum because the... can't remember the name of their anti-statehood party over there...  called for a boycott!  Look it up!  97% of 20% of the population does not make you conclude "Puerto Ricans want statehood".

And no, "they" didn't vote for statehood in 2012.  The result of that ballot was thrown out because a lot of the ballots were cast empty.  They thought it's because the questions were either insufficient or unclear and that's why they made another one in 2017.  But yes, Obama ran away with the 2012 results regardless and urged Congress to "respect the results of the PR measure".

 

[JohnsonJones]

Just now, anatess2 said:

Dude, seriously?  There was only a 20% turnout for the referendum because the... can't remember the name of their anti-statehood party over there...  called for a boycott!  Look it up!  97% of 20% of the population does not make you conclude "Puerto Ricans want statehood".

And no, "they" didn't vote for statehood in 2012.  The result of that ballot was thrown out because a lot of the ballots were cast empty.  They thought it's because the questions were either insufficient or unclear and that's why they made another one in 2017.  But yes, Obama ran away with the 2012 results regardless and urged Congress to "respect the results of the PR measure".

 

Actually, it was 23% which is better than many elections on various levels in the US in general.  We are going to disagree on this my friend and I can see this is going to go nowhere.

I'm with them in their desire for statehood.  You aren't.  It's that simple.  I think they deserve recognition and the ability to vote for the President (which, I expect Trump will strongly NOT want as he is not exactly very popular in P.R. at the moment due to some of his statements and actions).  You do not.

We could go back and forth and back and forth on this, but I know you never change your positions, and I'm not going to change mine on this so, let's end this amicably and agree that on this, we are going to disagree.

[anatess2]

7 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

Actually, it was 23% which is better than many elections on various levels in the US in general.  We are going to disagree on this my friend and I can see this is going to go nowhere.

I'm with them in their desire for statehood.  You aren't.  It's that simple.  I think they deserve recognition and the ability to vote for the President (which, I expect Trump will strongly NOT want as he is not exactly very popular in P.R. at the moment due to some of his statements and actions).  You do not.

We could go back and forth and back and forth on this, but I know you never change your positions, and I'm not going to change mine on this so, let's end this amicably and agree that on this, we are going to disagree.

You are silly.  I have no skin in the game.  I could care less one way or the other if they get statehood or not.  I'm simply telling you reality.  Frankly, I prefer them to be their own country and have their own President.

23% is a very low voter turnout for Puerto Rico.  You can't compare Puerto Rico to the USA.  Puerto Ricans are a lot more politically active than the 50 states.  You can also look that up.

And, by the way, Trump is not popular with the local leadership in PR because... a lot of them are corrupt socialists!  Why do you think they're in big trouble?  The people in PR, especially after the hurricane, is seeing how bad their local leaders are and are begging for the feds (Trump) to bypass them.  I mean, gee whiz, the Mayor of San Juan stood infront of pallets of food and water complaining that the Puerto Ricans are dying when she refused to get the goods distributed because only union workers are allowed to do it!

There's no position to change.  This is not a "POSITION".  This is FACT.  You are clearly stating you have an agenda.  So yeah, you don't have to believe me.

P.S.  I looked up the name of their anti-statehood party which is the main opposition to the party in power... Popular Democratic Party. 

Edited October 13, 2017 by anatess2