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    • Heather

      Mormon Hub Rules - Please be familiar with these rules before posting   04/17/08

        Any views expressed on Mormon Hub are independent of and do not represent the views of Mormon Hub, More Good Foundation, or Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Site Rules 1. Do not post, upload, or otherwise submit anything to the site that is derogatory towards The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, its teachings, or its leaders. Anti-LDS Propaganda will not be tolerated anywhere. 2. Please be conscious of the fact that although Mormon Hub is aimed towards an LDS audience, that the membership of this site consists of friends from an array of different backgrounds, beliefs, and cultures. Please be respectful and courteous to all, and know that everyone who is willing to follow the Rules and Terms of Mormon Hub are welcome to participate and be a member of Mormon Hub. Keep in mind that anything posted, uploaded, or otherwise displayed on the site should be understandable to friends of other faiths as well as to members. Please define any LDS vocabulary that friends of other faiths may not understand (i.e. Mutual, Relief Society, and Deacon.) 3. Personal attacks, name calling, flaming, and judgments against other members will not be tolerated. 4. No bickering and nit-picking toward others. Realize that sometimes it is very difficult to be able to express how one feels through written words. Please be courteous and ask for a further explanation, rather then trying to attack and find holes in someone else's post. 5. No cursing or crude language. Any swearing, including filter skipping, will result in an automatic one week suspension. 6. Posting issues you have with a moderator or administrator anywhere on the site will not be allowed. Please follow the chain of authority if you have any concerns. Any such posts will be removed and the poster will be subject to the consequences of breaking the rules. List of site moderators Course of action that should be taken if you have a concern: - Send a message directly to the moderator you have a concern about. If you are unable to work out the problem then, - Send a message to the head moderators. - If after you have approached both avenues, you may then send a message to Heather; however know that Heather is very unlikely to over rule anything that has been sanctioned by the moderators and head moderators. 7. Multiple accounts are not allowed and will result in all accounts being banned from the site. 8. Please do not share any "true" or "faith promoting" stories, unless you can verify the source. 9. Do not post any copyrighted material, unless the copyright is owned by you. 10. Bigoted/racial/ethnic comments will not be tolerated. Political Neutrality Policy More Good Foundation, as a nonprofit foundation, must remain neutral with respect to partisan politics and candidate campaigns for public office. The foundation encourages its members and staff to be informed about political issues and to be engaged in civic life; however, it does not endorse or oppose any political parties, candidates, or platforms. Mormon Hub will allow political discussion, also long as all posts remain neutral with respect to partisan politics and candidate campaigns for public office. You may not use the site to show support, endorse, oppose or sanction any candidate. In addition, all posts must be respectful and sensitive to readers of all political beliefs and backgrounds. Any post that violates any of the above conditions will be dealt with according to the consequences of breaking the rules. As a non-profit organization, 501©3, we are governed by legal constraints relative to writing, blogging, or otherwise endorsing any candidate running for political office. The law states, in effect, that no one acting on behalf of the nonprofit can intervene directly or indirectly in the election process by endorsing a political candidate. Any post that speaks favorably about one candidate, even in a religious context, can be construed as indirect intervention in the election process. While journalists are presently exempt from this provision, bloggers and forum-members are not. 12. You agree, through your use of this service, that you will not use this site to post any material which is knowingly false and/or defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, sexually oriented, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy, or otherwise in violation of any law. 13. You will not use this site to solicit the sale of any product, service or website. You will not use this site to promote a money making venture or contest. If appropriate, you may post a link to your personal website or to your business on your profile, in your forum signature, and you make create one post in the web link section of the forum. Do not post any link or discuss any business, service, or website that violates any rule of Mormon Hub. Mormon Hub is not responsible for the content of any site linked on Mormon Hub. Consequences to these rules could result in the following, and are determined on a case by case basis. Anything that an Administrator or Moderator determines is more than just an infraction of the rules, will result in immediate banning from the site and/or legal action: First infraction will result in a warning and a message from a moderator on what rule was broken. Second infraction will result in a one week suspension followed by a two week moderator post approval Third infraction will result in banned from the site for good. Any topic, message, video, music, image, or other upload or submission to the site that breaks any rules will be deleted. Please remember that we are not responsible for anything posted or uploaded. We do not vouch for or warrant the accuracy, completeness or usefulness of any message or upload. We are not responsible for the contents of any message, video, image, post or upload. The messages express the views of the author of the message, not necessarily the views of Mormon Hub , More Good Foundation, or The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Any user who feels that a posted message is objectionable is encouraged to contact the Administration immediately by Private Message, Email, or Report a Post. We will make every effort to remove objectionable messages and uploads within a reasonable time frame, if we determine that removal is necessary. Mormon Hub Terms of Use Agreement January 8, 2008 Mormon Hub is a social networking service that allows Members to create unique personal profiles online in order to find and communicate with old and new friends. Mormon Hub refers to "Mormon Hub or its proprietors." The services offered by Mormon Hub ("Mormon Hub" or "we") include the Mormon Hub website (the "Mormon Hub Website"), the Mormon Hub Internet messaging service, and any other features, content, or applications offered from time to time by Mormon Hub in connection with the Mormon Hub Website (collectively, the "Mormon Hub Services"). The Mormon Hub Services are hosted in the U.S. This Terms of Use Agreement ("Agreement") sets forth the legally binding terms for your use of the Mormon Hub Services. By using the Mormon Hub Services, you agree to be bound by this Agreement, whether you are a "Visitor" (which means that you simply browse the Mormon Hub Website) or you are a "Member" (which means that you have registered with Mormon Hub). The term "User" refers to a Visitor or a Member. You are only authorized to use the Mormon Hub Services (regardless of whether your access or use is intended) if you agree to abide by all applicable laws and to this Agreement. Please read this Agreement carefully and save it. If you do not agree with it, you should leave the Mormon Hub Website and discontinue use of the Mormon Hub Services immediately. If you wish to become a Member, communicate with other Members and make use of the Mormon Hub Services, you must read this Agreement and indicate your acceptance during the Registration process. This Agreement includes Mormon Hub's policy for acceptable use of the Mormon Hub Services and Content posted on the Mormon Hub Website, your rights, obligations and restrictions regarding your use of the Mormon Hub Services and Mormon Hub's Privacy Policy. In order to participate in certain Mormon Hub Services, you may be notified that you are required to download software or content and/or agree to additional terms and conditions. Unless otherwise provided by the additional terms and conditions applicable to the Mormon Hub Services in which you choose to participate, those additional terms are hereby incorporated into this Agreement.  Mormon Hub may modify this Agreement from time to time and such modification shall be effective upon posting by Mormon Hub on the Mormon Hub Website. You agree to be bound to any changes to this Agreement when you use the Mormon Hub Services after any such modification is posted. It is therefore important that you review this Agreement regularly to ensure you are updated as to any changes. Please choose carefully the information you post on Mormon Hub and that you provide to other Users. You may NOT include any of the following information anywhere on Mormon Hub, including private messages: telephone numbers, street addresses, last names, and any photographs containing nudity, or obscene, lewd, excessively violent, harassing, sexually explicit or otherwise objectionable subject matter. Email addresses should NEVER be posted to the general public. Despite this prohibition, information provided by other Mormon Hub Members (for instance, in their Profile) may contain inaccurate, inappropriate, offensive or sexually explicit material, products or services, and Mormon Hub assumes no responsibility or liability for this material. If you become aware of misuse of the Mormon Hub Services by any person, please contact Mormon Hub or click on the "Report Inappropriate Content" link at the bottom of any Mormon Hub page. Mormon Hub reserves the right, in its sole discretion, to moderate, reject, refuse to post or remove any posting (including private messages) by you, or to restrict, suspend, or terminate your access to all or any part of the Mormon Hub Services at any time, for any or no reason, with or without prior notice, and without liability. Mormon Hub expressly reserves the right to remove your profile and/or restrict, suspend, or terminate your access to any part of Mormon Hub Services if Mormon Hub determines, in its sole discretion, that you pose a threat to Mormon Hub and/or its Users. Mormon Hub reserves the right to ask a member to change their username if it is found to be offensive or can be perceived as offensive. Due to the sacredness, this would include any usernames that include, Jesus, Christ, God, Lord, names of Prophets, General authorities etc. The names of personal or business websites, blogs, etc. to promote said sites is also prohibited. Using names of political figures or party affiliation is also prohibited. 1. Eligibility. Use of and Membership in the Mormon Hub Services is void where prohibited. By using the Mormon Hub Services, you represent and warrant that (a) all registration information you submit is truthful and accurate; ( B) you will maintain the accuracy of such information; © you are 14 years of age or older; and (d) your use of the Mormon Hub Services does not violate any applicable law or regulation. Your profile may be deleted and your Membership may be terminated without warning, if we believe that you are under 13 years of age. 2. Term. This Agreement shall remain in full force and effect while you use the Mormon Hub Services or are a Member. You may terminate your Membership at any time, for any reason, emailing an admin. Mormon Hub may terminate your Membership at any time, without warning. Even after Membership is terminated, this Agreement will remain in effect, including sections 5-17. 3. Password. When you sign up to become a Member, you will also be asked to choose a password. You are entirely responsible for maintaining the confidentiality of your password. You agree not to use the account, username, or password of another Member at any time or to disclose your password to any third party. You agree to notify Mormon Hub immediately if you suspect any unauthorized use of your account or access to your password. You are solely responsible for any and all use of your account. 4. Non-commercial Use by Members. The Mormon Hub Services are for the personal use of Members only and may not be used in connection with any commercial endeavors except those that are specifically endorsed or approved by Mormon Hub. Illegal and/or unauthorized use of the Mormon Hub Services, including collecting usernames and/or email addresses of Members by electronic or other means for the purpose of sending unsolicited email or unauthorized framing of or linking to the Mormon Hub Website is prohibited. Commercial advertisements, affiliate links, and other forms of solicitation may be removed from Member profiles without notice and may result in termination of Membership privileges. Appropriate legal action will be taken for any illegal or unauthorized use of the Mormon Hub Services. 5. Proprietary Rights in Content on Mormon Hub. Mormon Hub does not claim any ownership rights in the text, files, images, photos, video, sounds, musical works, works of authorship, or any other materials (collectively, "Content") that you post to the Mormon Hub Services. After posting your Content to the Mormon Hub Services, you continue to retain all ownership rights in such Content, and you continue to have the right to use your Content in any way you choose. By displaying or publishing ("posting") any Content on or through the Mormon Hub Services, you hereby grant to Mormon Hub a limited license to use, modify, publicly perform, publicly display, reproduce, and distribute such Content solely on and through the Mormon Hub Services.
      Without this license, Mormon Hub would be unable to provide the Mormon Hub Services. For example, without the right to modify Member Content, Mormon Hub would not be able to digitally compress music files that Members submit or otherwise format Content to satisfy technical requirements, and without the right to publicly perform Member Content, Mormon Hub could not allow Users to listen to music posted by Members. The license you grant to Mormon Hub is non-exclusive (meaning you are free to license your Content to anyone else in addition to Mormon Hub), fully-paid and royalty-free (meaning that Mormon Hub is not required to pay you for the use on the Mormon Hub Services of the Content that you post), sublicensable (so that Mormon Hub is able to use its affiliates and subcontractors such as Internet content delivery networks to provide the Mormon Hub Services), and worldwide (because the Internet and the Mormon Hub Services are global in reach). This license will terminate at the time you remove your Content from the Mormon Hub Services. The license does not grant Mormon Hub the right to sell your Content, nor does the license grant Mormon Hub the right to distribute your Content outside of the Mormon Hub Services. You represent and warrant that: (i) you own the Content posted by you on or through the Mormon Hub Services or otherwise have the right to grant the license set forth in this section, and (ii) the posting of your Content on or through the Mormon Hub Services does not violate the privacy rights, publicity rights, copyrights, contract rights or any other rights of any person. You agree to pay for all royalties, fees, and any other monies owing any person by reason of any Content posted by you to or through the LDS.Mormon Hub Services. The Mormon Hub Services contain Content of Mormon Hub ("Mormon Hub Content"). Mormon Hub Content is protected by copyright, trademark, patent, trade secret and other laws, and Mormon Hub owns and retains all rights in the Mormon Hub Content and the Mormon Hub Services. Mormon Hub hereby grants you a limited, revocable, nonsublicensable license to reproduce and display the Mormon Hub Content (excluding any software code) solely for your personal use in connection with viewing the Mormon Hub Website and using the Mormon Hub Services. The Mormon Hub Services contain Content of Users and other Mormon Hub licensors. Except for Content posted by you, you may not copy, modify, translate, publish, broadcast, transmit, distribute, perform, display, or sell any Content appearing on or through the Mormon Hub Services.   6. Content Posted. Mormon Hub may delete any Content that in the sole judgment of Mormon Hub violates this Agreement or which may be offensive, illegal or violate the rights, harm, or threaten the safety of any person. Mormon Hub assumes no responsibility for monitoring the Mormon Hub Services for inappropriate Content or conduct. If at any time Mormon Hub chooses, in its sole discretion, to monitor the Mormon Hub Services, Mormon Hub nonetheless assumes no responsibility for the Content, no obligation to modify or remove any inappropriate Content, and no responsibility for the conduct of the User submitting any such Content. You are solely responsible for the Content that you post on or through any of the Mormon Hub Services, and any material or information that you transmit to other Members and for your interactions with other Users. Mormon Hub does not endorse and has no control over the Content. Content is not necessarily reviewed by Mormon Hub prior to posting and does not necessarily reflect the opinions or policies of Mormon Hub. Mormon Hub makes no warranties, express or implied, as to the Content or to the accuracy and reliability of the Content or any material or information that you transmit to other Members.   7. Content/Activity Prohibited. The following is a partial list of the kind of Content that is illegal or prohibited to post on or through the Mormon Hub Services.Mormon Hub reserves the right to investigate and take appropriate legal action against anyone who, in Mormon Hub's sole discretion, violates this provision, including without limitation, removing the offending communication from the Mormon Hub Services and terminating the Membership of such violators. Prohibited Content includes, but is not limited to Content that, in the sole discretion of Mormon Hub: is patently offensive and promotes racism, bigotry, hatred or physical harm of any kind against any group or individual; harasses or advocates harassment of another person; exploits people in a sexual or violent manner; contains nudity, violence, or offensive subject matter or contains a link to an adult website; solicits personal information from anyone; provides any telephone numbers, street addresses, last names, URLs or email addresses; promotes information that you know is false or misleading or promotes illegal activities or conduct that is abusive, threatening, obscene, defamatory or libelous; promotes an illegal or unauthorized copy of another person's copyrighted work, such as providing pirated computer programs or links to them, providing information to circumvent manufacture-installed copy-protect devices, or providing pirated music or links to pirated music files; involves the transmission of "junk mail," "chain letters," or unsolicited mass mailing, instant messaging, "spimming," or "spamming"; contains restricted or password only access pages or hidden pages or images (those not linked to or from another accessible page); furthers or promotes any criminal activity or enterprise or provides instructional information about illegal activities including, but not limited to making or buying illegal weapons, violating someone's privacy, or providing or creating computer viruses; solicits passwords or personal identifying information for commercial or unlawful purposes from other Users; involves commercial activities and/or sales without our prior written consent such as contests, sweepstakes, barter, advertising, or pyramid schemes; includes a photograph of another person that you have posted without that person's consent; or uses sexually suggestive imagery or any other unfair, misleading or deceptive Content intended to draw traffic to the profile.
      The following is a partial list of the kind of activity that is illegal or prohibited on the Mormon Hub Website and through your use of the Mormon Hub Services. Mormon Hub reserves the right to investigate and take appropriate legal action against anyone who, in Mormon Hub's sole discretion, violates this provision, including without limitation, reporting you to law enforcement authorities. Prohibited activity includes, but is not limited to: criminal or tortuous activity, including child pornography, fraud, trafficking in obscene material, drug dealing, gambling, harassment, stalking, spamming, spimming, sending of viruses or other harmful files, copyright infringement, patent infringement, or theft of trade secrets; advertising to, or solicitation of, any Member to buy or sell any products or services through the Mormon Hub Services. You may not transmit any chain letters or junk email to other Members. It is also a violation of these rules to use any information obtained from the Mormon Hub Services in order to contact, advertise to, solicit, or sell to any Member without their prior explicit consent. In order to protect our Members from such advertising or solicitation, Mormon Hub reserves the right to restrict the number of emails which a Member may send to other Members in any 24-hour period to a number which Mormon Hub deems appropriate in its sole discretion. If you breach this Agreement and send unsolicited bulk email, instant messages or other unsolicited communications of any kind through the Mormon Hub Services, you acknowledge that you will have caused substantial harm to Mormon Hub, but that the amount of such harm would be extremely difficult to ascertain. As a reasonable estimation of such harm, you agree to pay Mormon Hub $50 for each such unsolicited email or other unsolicited communication you send through the Mormon Hub Services; covering or obscuring the banner advertisements on your personal profile page, or any Mormon Hub page via HTML/CSS or any other means; any automated use of the system, such as using scripts to add friends or send comments or messages; interfering with, disrupting, or creating an undue burden on the Mormon Hub Services or the networks or services connected to the Mormon Hub Services; attempting to impersonate another Member or person; copying the code for your Mormon Hub Player and embedding it into other profiles or asking other Members to embed it into their profiles; using the account, username, or password of another Member at any time or disclosing your password to any third party or permitting any third party to access your account; selling or otherwise transferring your profile; using any information obtained from the Mormon Hub Services in order to harass, abuse, or harm another person; displaying an advertisement on your profile, or accepting payment or anything of value from a third person in exchange for your performing any commercial activity on or through the Mormon Hub Services on behalf of that person, such as placing commercial content on your profile, posting blogs or bulletins with a commercial purpose, selecting a profile with a commercial purpose as one of your "Top" friends, or sending private messages with a commercial purpose; or using the Mormon Hub Services in a manner inconsistent with any and all applicable laws and regulations.   8. 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    • rpframe

      IMPORTANT!! -- Login Issues   09/12/17

      TL;DR; In order to fix login issues, a lot of people will have to reset their password. As of now, if you are unable to login, please attempt a "Forgot Password"/"Password Reset" (check your spam folder) and if that doesn't work then feel free to Contact Us, for help and please check back on this post for any status updates and FAQs as we go through this process. FAQ:
      [Reserved Space]
      Firstly, I'd like to apologize on behalf of MormonHub for the frustration of the login system. There is a lot of cool things we could do with the login system, and having the logins synced up between our forum system and our front end system has been nice, but for multiple reasons (not just the current login issues), we have decided to move back to the earlier login system. While I would love to be able to migrate everyone's current passwords back, but the systems are just not compatible that way. So a large number of users will need to do a password reset. We realize that we forced everyone to do this on the move to the new system, and we sincerely apologize to everyone that will have to do it again. The Login System has now been swapped over. Give us a little bit of time to work out kinks in the system (will post updates here). If you are unable to login anymore, then please perform a password reset (check spam folder) and if that fails and we don't have any acknowledgement of problems on this post (No known problems at this time), then feel free to contact us (keeping in mind that there are a lot of you and very few of us).

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I was teaching a lesson on Christ's Atonement the other week in church and part of it was concerning the war in heaven. As I expounded on my thoughts while teaching I came across this idea in my brain: The war in heaven was fought over our rights to be damned. Each of us, having kept our first estates, stood on the side of Christ, and that side was a war against the concept that we should all be saved. It was not a matter of freedom of choice of action so much, methinks, as it was (as taught in the 2nd Nephi 2) a matter of freedom of choice between damnation and salvation (which, of course, requires some level of freedom of choice of action as well). Point being, salvation was on the table either way. It was damnation that was in question. We were championing hell and damnation in opposition to their proposed eradication.

We can appropriately, I believe, therefore refer to the war henceforth as The Damnation War. (Copyright 2017. All rights reserved.)

Edited by The Folk Prophet

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I don't really see it this way. At all. I know the teachings we often hear about "Satan's plan", and how Satan would have "made us to right" by disallowing our choices for evil. The problem is that I find zero scriptural support for this view. Not a single verse of scripture substantiates this. Rather, Satan is all about destroying our agency -- which is far different from "making us do good". Satan continues to seek to destroy our agency, and you can bet it's not by forcing us to do the right thing.

No, we had the "right" (strange choice of word) to be damned before Satan rebelled. Any creature with agency gets to choose for whom or what s/he's an agent. If you choose to be an agent for those in opposition to God, the eventual and inevitable outcome is damnation.

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17 minutes ago, Vort said:

I don't really see it this way. At all.

That's because you're smart enough to know that the "right" (ability, whatever) to be damned cannot be taken away and the war was really about whether we believed a lie or not.

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19 minutes ago, Vort said:

 I know the teachings we often hear about "Satan's plan", and how Satan would have "made us to right" by disallowing our choices for evil. The problem is that I find zero scriptural support for this view.

Incidentally...I didn't say or even mean to imply this concept in any regard at all.

19 minutes ago, Vort said:

Rather, Satan is all about destroying our agency -- which is far different from "making us do good".

Right. It was just as likely about saving us despite our having done bad. In other words, removing our ability to be damned.

Satan's plan amounted to the removal of damnation as an option.

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1 hour ago, The Folk Prophet said:

I was teaching a lesson on Christ's Atonement the other week in church and part of it was concerning the war in heaven. As I expounded on my thoughts while teaching I came across this idea in my brain: The war in heaven was fought over our rights to be damned. Each of us, having kept our first estates, stood on the side of Christ, and that side was a war against the concept that we should all be saved. It was not a matter of freedom of choice of action so much, methinks, as it was (as taught in the 2nd Nephi 2) a matter of freedom of choice between damnation and salvation (which, of course, requires some level of freedom of choice of action as well). Point being, salvation was on the table either way. It was damnation that was in question. We were championing hell and damnation in opposition to their proposed eradication.

We can appropriately, I believe, therefore refer to the war henceforth as The Damnation War. (Copyright 2017. All rights reserved.)

We assume certain things that dont make much sense. One principle we cant ignore is 5hat Gods laws arent negotiable nor changeable. Perhaps Satan thought he could overthrow the kingdom and a war ensued. But, what was the war really about? It was about good versus evil, light vs. darkness. On Christs side he was on task to be the Savior and save mankind from sin. On Lucifers side was the idea of his self reigning over Gods children in his own kingdom unrighteously in sin. Whatever Satan thought he could or couldnt do, he knew not the mind of God and the path of righteousness and principles of truth. Perhaps he honestly thought he could trick God into him giving his power of immortality to him while he secretly lived in sin. That is why he lied about wanting to be the savior to fill that role. But it was all his big lie to gain the power of godliness and continue to live in sin and trap all of Gods children in his own kingdom making us his slaves.

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28 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

We assume certain things that dont make much sense. One principle we cant ignore is 5hat Gods laws arent negotiable nor changeable. Perhaps Satan thought he could overthrow the kingdom and a war ensued. But, what was the war really about? It was about good versus evil, light vs. darkness. On Christs side he was on task to be the Savior and save mankind from sin. On Lucifers side was the idea of his self reigning over Gods children in his own kingdom unrighteously in sin. Whatever Satan thought he could or couldnt do, he knew not the mind of God and the path of righteousness and principles of truth. Perhaps he honestly thought he could trick God into him giving his power of immortality to him while he secretly lived in sin. That is why he lied about wanting to be the savior to fill that role. But it was all his big lie to gain the power of godliness and continue to live in sin and trap all of Gods children in his own kingdom making us his slaves.

Another way of looking at what Satan sought to destroy rather than "agency" or "the right to choose damnation" would by in the term justice. In other words, Satan sought to destroy justice. Justice, by another term, is fairness. We often think of fairness in terms of being treated poorly, but unfair is also related to being treated too well. Justice mandates that we get what we deserve. Damnation for sin, salvation for righteousness. What Lucifer did not understand (or chose to blatantly ignore) concerning the mind of God was that God is, was, will be, and must be JUST -- or, in other words -- FAIR. Fairness (in other words, justice) is equivalent to Godliness. God does what He says, means what he says, treats all equitably, and is no respector of persons. In order that justice might be served, because if it was not, God could not be God, He presented the plan of salvation, whereby justice would be served, and mercy extended as part of that justice. Satan, alternatively, essentially planned to cast justice out the proverbial window.

So really the war in heaven was The Justice War. (Copyright 2017. All rights reserved).

Edited by The Folk Prophet

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12 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Another way of looking at what Satan sought to destroy rather than "agency" or "the right to choose damnation" would by in the term justice. In other words, Satan sought to destroy justice. Justice, by another term, is fairness. We often think of fairness in terms of being treated poorly, but unfair is also related to being treated too well. Justice mandates that we get what we deserve. Damnation for sin, salvation for righteousness. What Lucifer did not understand (or chose to blatantly ignore) concerning the mind of God was that God is, was, will be, and must be JUST -- or, in other words -- FAIR. Fairness (in other words, justice) is equivalent to Godliness. God does what He says, means what he says, treats all equitably, and is no respector of persons. In order that justice might be served, because if it was not, God could not be God, He presented the plan of salvation, whereby justice would be served, and mercy extended as part of that justice. Satan, alternatively, essentially planned to cast justice out the proverbial window.

So really the war in heaven was The Justice War. (Copyright 2017. All rights reserved).

Aye. Satan sought to become a law unto his own pleasures and desires. That is the patent move of all evil design- justifying it as okay.

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Often when I analyze (try to understand) something complex – I gather together all the elements (bits and pieces of understanding) that I can or have been given and then try or attempt to put some order or understanding to it.  Usually I find levels of order.  Scientifically or mathematically these levels of order are called fractals.   I believe these levels of order or referred to by Isaiah as “line upon line upon line and precept upon precept upon precept.

This thread is about “damnation”.  We are told by Nephi that everything has it opposite.  I believe the opposite of damnation is exaltation and eternal life.  I think that eternal life is quite complex and involves order.  The kind of order that can only be achieved with light and truth.  Damnation is also quite complex and is the result of disorder (chaos) and is achieved with “darkness” – which “darkness” opposes light and truth.

Another element of exaltation and eternal life is what we understand as or call “Agency”.  I am not sure I understand agency as well as I would like to think - because I am not sure what the opposite of agency is or how to describe it.  But I believe Satan has lost his “Agency” because of the “Darkness” that is in him and has achieved the opposite of agency.  It seems to me that whatever agency is that he (Satan) intends to deprive us of our agency and this is done but getting us involved in disorder (chaos) that is contrary to the divine order of G-d.  I believe that what I am calling “disorder” or chaos is the opposite of the order of G-d and is the order of Satan.  Interestingly this disorder or chaos of Satan is both power and priesthoods.  Satan seems to be a g-d of disorder and chaos that has power (priesthood) over all those that are damned.

Another term of the damned is perdition – this is a term that is defined as total ruin – which is that which cannot be salvaged or redeemed because there is no light or truth in it.  I thought to write more concerning my understanding but I am thinking that already there is enough to chew on or discuss if there is interest. 

 

The Traveler

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3 hours ago, Traveler said:

 

Often when I analyze (try to understand) something complex – I gather together all the elements (bits and pieces of understanding) that I can or have been given and then try or attempt to put some order or understanding to it.  Usually I find levels of order.  Scientifically or mathematically these levels of order are called fractals.   I believe these levels of order or referred to by Isaiah as “line upon line upon line and precept upon precept upon precept.

This thread is about “damnation”.  We are told by Nephi that everything has it opposite.  I believe the opposite of damnation is exaltation and eternal life.  I think that eternal life is quite complex and involves order.  The kind of order that can only be achieved with light and truth.  Damnation is also quite complex and is the result of disorder (chaos) and is achieved with “darkness” – which “darkness” opposes light and truth.

Another element of exaltation and eternal life is what we understand as or call “Agency”.  I am not sure I understand agency as well as I would like to think - because I am not sure what the opposite of agency is or how to describe it.  But I believe Satan has lost his “Agency” because of the “Darkness” that is in him and has achieved the opposite of agency.  It seems to me that whatever agency is that he (Satan) intends to deprive us of our agency and this is done but getting us involved in disorder (chaos) that is contrary to the divine order of G-d.  I believe that what I am calling “disorder” or chaos is the opposite of the order of G-d and is the order of Satan.  Interestingly this disorder or chaos of Satan is both power and priesthoods.  Satan seems to be a g-d of disorder and chaos that has power (priesthood) over all those that are damned.

Another term of the damned is perdition – this is a term that is defined as total ruin – which is that which cannot be salvaged or redeemed because there is no light or truth in it.  I thought to write more concerning my understanding but I am thinking that already there is enough to chew on or discuss if there is interest. 

 

The Traveler

The opposite of or loss of agency is "captivity". the opposite of damnation is salvation.

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22 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

The opposite of or loss of agency is "captivity". 

Is it? Can someone run around and do whatever they want with complete freedom from any level of accountability be said to have agency? I think not. But that state is certainly not captivity, and yet still is in opposition to agency.

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29 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Is it? Can someone run around and do whatever they want with complete freedom from any level of accountability be said to have agency? I think not. But that state is certainly not captivity, and yet still is in opposition to agency.

They are led captive to Satans will. The charge given in the Book of Mormon is to-

13 O that ye would awake; awake from a deep sleep, yea, even from the sleep of hell, and shake off the awful chains by which ye are bound, which are the chains which bind the children of men, that they are carried away captive down to the eternal gulf of misery and woe. (2 Nephi 1:13)

 

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7 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

They are led captive to Satans will. The charge given in the Book of Mormon is to-

13 O that ye would awake; awake from a deep sleep, yea, even from the sleep of hell, and shake off the awful chains by which ye are bound, which are the chains which bind the children of men, that they are carried away captive down to the eternal gulf of misery and woe. (2 Nephi 1:13)

 

You lost me. I wonder if I lost you first.

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4 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

You lost me. I wonder if I lost you first.

Okay, I will explain. The Pearl of Great Price in the book of Moses tells us that it was Satans plan to destroy our agency. The correct definition of agency in context of the scriptures is this-

:the capacity, condition, or state of acting or of exerting power :operation (Merrium-Webster)

The key word here is "operation". Its synonymous to agency. The definition of operation in context, using same dictionary is-

a :an exertion of power or influence 

As you can see they have the same relative definition. When we fall into the traps and snares of Satan we no longer exert the power or influence of the spirit which is godliness. It is thus said we are led "captive" to the will of Satan. The definition of "captive" is-

:held under control of another but having the appearance of independence; 

As we can readily see then that to follow Satan is becoming bound into captivity of his will and under his influence of control and we are no longer in control of ourselves. Thus a loss or destruction of our agency.

 

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I remember the war in Heaven was over 2 plans: 1. Lucifer wanted the glory for saving making (with no agency) 2. Jehovah's plan allowed agency, provided a savior and gave all the honor and glory to God.  I do see where @The Folk Prophet is drawing his thought though.  Very interesting!

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I will grant that it's a definitional discussion...but. In the gospel sense, agency is the ability to choose for oneself between salvation and damnation by action and choice. It is, as the Young Women call it, Choice AND Accountability. The fact that it is tied into salvation or damnation is because "agency" implies accountability. If I am an agent of something I am taking responsibility for that thing. In the case of moral agency, I am accountable for my moral choices. Captivity, in my thinking, is a consequence. It is part of agency, yes. But opposite too? I will grant you that captivity is a form of no agency. But I'm not sure, theoretically, and by my understanding of the word, that it is the pure black-and-white opposite. Why? Because I can take you captive and it does not eliminate your agency. If you cannot act because of me, then you are not accountable for failing to act. If I force (and I mean literally force) you to act then you aren't accountable either. I'm not sure agency actually has an opposite. It is simply the reality that when we have choice, we also have accountability for those choices.

Edited by The Folk Prophet

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4 minutes ago, eVa said:

I remember the war in Heaven was over 2 plans: 1. Lucifer wanted the glory for saving making (with no agency) 2. Jehovah's plan allowed agency, provided a savior and gave all the honor and glory to God.  I do see where @The Folk Prophet is drawing his thought though.  Very interesting!

A slight clarification: Lucifer's plan was Lucifer's. Christ accepted the Father's plan. The Father presented the plan of agency.

Edited by The Folk Prophet

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I'm not saying I have the answer here - on the contrary, I don't much like it - but thinking out loud...

Oddly enough, "innocence" (I'm thinking of childlike innocence here) is as close as I can come to an opposite of "agency".  The former is not responsible for their actions, the latter is responsible for their actions.  If agency is some combination of the ability to choose and responsibility for one's choices, then the opposite is the inability to choose and lack of responsibility.  Ignorance and innocence are as close as I can come right now.

Hmm.  If I take it another direction, in the world, an agent represents someone else and is responsible for their choices as that representative.  The opposite would be someone who does not represent anyone else - someone who is independent.  In scripture, it talks about Satan (and others, I believe) wanting to become a law unto himself.  Maybe the opposite of agency is complete independence (which, in a universe where we are all dependent on God and Christ for all good things, would be a terrible thing).

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11 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

I will grant that it's a definitional discussion...but. In the gospel sense, agency is the ability to choose for oneself between salvation and damnation by action and choice. It is, as the Young Women call it, Choice AND Accountability. The fact that it is tied into salvation or damnation is because "agency" implies accountability. If I am an agent of something I am taking responsibility for that thing. In the case of moral agency, I am accountable for my moral choices. Captivity, in my thinking, is a consequence. It is part of agency, yes. But opposite too? I will grant you that captivity is a form of no agency. But I'm not sure, theoretically, and by my understanding of the word, that it is the pure black-and-white opposite. Why? Because I can take you captive and it does not eliminate your agency. If you cannot act because of me, then you are not accountable for failing to act. If I force (and I mean literally force) you to act then you aren't accountable either. I'm not sure agency actually has an opposite. It is simply the reality that when we have choice, we also have accountability for those choices.

Agency entails more than the typical seminary answer. Its rather more of a philisophical definition. As we correctly understand the power and freedom we exercise when we choose the right that power itself is the power and mechanism of "agency". Its about the true philosophy of free will. Free will truly only exists when the correct principles of righteousness are followed and obeyed. It is this spirit or influence that gives us instrumentality with our Maker- access to the absolute self control and peace that governs our spirit and body. I have seen many an addict or great sinner that whise spirit is held captive by the devil and they dont even know it. They themselves cannot even explain why they keep doing bad things. Its because they no longer have instrumentality over themselves and what they know to be right.

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17 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

A slight clarification: Lucifer's plan was Lucifer's. Christ accepted the Father's plan. The Father presented the plan of agency.

That is right....been a while!  Father called a council and presented His plan.  The plan called for a savior and so on.  Thanks for the clarification.

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On ‎11‎/‎7‎/‎2017 at 12:49 PM, The Folk Prophet said:

Another way of looking at what Satan sought to destroy rather than "agency" or "the right to choose damnation" would by in the term justice. In other words, Satan sought to destroy justice. Justice, by another term, is fairness. We often think of fairness in terms of being treated poorly, but unfair is also related to being treated too well. Justice mandates that we get what we deserve. Damnation for sin, salvation for righteousness. What Lucifer did not understand (or chose to blatantly ignore) concerning the mind of God was that God is, was, will be, and must be JUST -- or, in other words -- FAIR. Fairness (in other words, justice) is equivalent to Godliness. God does what He says, means what he says, treats all equitably, and is no respector of persons. In order that justice might be served, because if it was not, God could not be God, He presented the plan of salvation, whereby justice would be served, and mercy extended as part of that justice. Satan, alternatively, essentially planned to cast justice out the proverbial window.

So really the war in heaven was The Justice War. (Copyright 2017. All rights reserved).

If I might suggest a paradigm shift, you are looking at justice from the bottom up or in other words how justice treats mankind.  If we keep in mind that mankind has already received a completely just judgment in the Garden of Eden and that we have already been assigned a penalty of death and are cast out then maybe we might ask a different question.

What if we looked at justice from the top down.  It is a big deal made about the fact that Christ paid with "innocent" blood.  From the very beginning in the Old Testament we are being taught concerning elements that contribute to an understanding of the atonement and the mechanics of how it works.  Cain slays Abel and again there is a very big deal made about Abel's blood being undeservedly spilt.  A claim is made that Abel's blood calls out for justice for this travesty. Of course in Abel's case we know it is Jehovah / Christ that responds to his demands for justice. How do you suppose justice responds when Christ requires justice to respond to his innocent blood being spilt.  When it is his voice that insists upon justice Who is it that he pleads to and why is there any obligation for there to be a response to his plea for justice.  How does this influence the mechanics of the atonement?  Is it possible that it is because of the law of Justice that we are saved? And how so?  Can mercy even rob a justice already administered from the Garden of Eden which placed mankind in a state of being castoff? Or is it more likely that if Justice was not met when Christ required it that there might be an actual situation where mercy could be in a position to rob justice if those please were not responded to.  How would God the Father appease the demands of justice of the only citizen of His kingdom to retain the rights of His protection for never having broken the law that required mankind to be cast off?

Lot's of questions but when you come at it from this direction one can begin to see certain mechanics of the atonement that we do not grasp for looking at justice for how it applies to us who deserve no justice but which can become visible when we consider how the Atonement bought our souls and enabled a return to the presence of the Father because Christ required justice for his innocent blood being spilt.

 

Now I am not exactly agreeing with the idea that Satan wanted to destroy justice, as I lean more to the agency side of the debate.  However if justice were destroyed from our direction of looking at how it impacts us there would be no impact on God the Father as he has already administered a just decision when he condemned all of mankind as all were lost.  However, if he destroyed justice from the top looking down as to how it affected citizens of God's kingdom such as Christ, that would have the capacity to cause God to cease to be God and would have grave ramifications if he chose not to grant that justice. 

Edited by brlenox
Clarification

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What blood is it that stains their garments?

Edited by brlenox
clarification

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28 minutes ago, brlenox said:

Try to grasp the entire picture I am suggesting. 

If you're really interested in having a discussion with someone, perhaps leave the condescension out of it. Just a thought.

I'm considering your thoughts.

 

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