Depression, testimony stuggles.


MariDemure
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I am pregnant with what would be our "rainbow baby" and currently struggling with depression. My husband and I have a large load of medical debt and are living with our in-laws temporarily. I am struggling imensly with my testimony of the gospel and its been extremely difficult for me. I have an unhealthy thought process that if I had been a better Mormon that we wouldn't have lost our first daughter and I know that simply isn't true but I can't stop those feelings from welling up inside of me I feel as though I'm doing something wrong all of the time even though I haven't. I feel like it's a really unhealthy self punishment I've prayed, looked for counsel and each time they simply say that "it's not your fault and you haven't done anything wrong etc" I've had counselors tell me that I should leave the church because it's just giving me unnecessary anxiety and honestly I would give anything to not feel this way but the gospel is a huge part of my life. I've been terrified that if I don't do everything exactly right then I'll lose this baby too so I consistently read the scriptures, pray, go to church I even signed up for institute classes thinking if I immerse myself completely these feelings would go away. I don't know if I need to just take a step back and give myself room to breathe and then come back when I'm ready or continue pushing through this depression and anxiety immersing myself? The reason I mentioned that we live with our in-laws is that this is adding to my ever long list of anxiety. 

Edited by MariDemure
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Anxiety is a horrible thing. I'm so sorry you are struggling with this right now. 

You are struggling right now, and I understand that totally. You have a lot on your plate. Have you tried looking into getting an LDS counselor? Maybe one who is aligned with the church or something? 

Sending love and prayers. Please stay strong. 

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Big hugs!

Please keep in mind that, though works and making a good faith effort at being a decent person have a place in the Gospel, we are all saved ultimately by grace.  The writings of Paul are very helpful in this regard.  We all fall short, and it is OK - it is part of the human condition.  God will save us from death and eternal hell no matter what through grace, and through obedience to the gospel along with more grace we can become worthy for some very special blessings. 

What this means is that God would never punish you for some perceived shortcoming through a miscarriage.  That is not what God does, that is not who He is.  God is love, as stated in the Gospel of John.  He loves you, He knows what you are going through, and He is with you always.

Perhaps a solution would be to keep going to Church, keep reading scriptures a little every day, but also try and take time for you, have some fun, relax a little, do things that make you happy, and put some trust that Heavenly Father loves you, He is taking care of you, and He is with you, supporting you, cheering for you, and helping you no matter what?

 

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First of all *hugs* and welcome to the forum.  I hear you, I've been there too.  

What you're suffering from now is a medical disease.  It has NOTHING to do with you being a horrible daughter of God (because you are a WONDERFUL daughter of God).   It is not caused by you going to Christ/Church and you leaving Christ/Church will not solve it.  And honestly, there's a good chance this isn't going to be solved by 24/7 scripture reading either (just like any other medical disease).   And pregnancy makes things so much more irractic.  

What you need to address a medical disease is a medical treatment.  Which form that medical treatment takes is best up to you and medical experts (different counseling, medication, etc).

Have you read Elder Hollands words on his own struggle with depression and how seeking medical treatment is needed?

Edited by Jane_Doe
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1 hour ago, MariDemure said:

I am pregnant with what would be our "rainbow baby" and currently struggling with depression. My husband and I have a large load of medical debt and are living with our in-laws temporarily. I am struggling imensly with my testimony of the gospel and its been extremely difficult for me. I have an unhealthy thought process that if I had been a better Mormon that we wouldn't have lost our first daughter and I know that simply isn't true but I can't stop those feelings from welling up inside of me I feel as though I'm doing something wrong all of the time even though I haven't. I feel like it's a really unhealthy self punishment I've prayed, looked for counsel and each time they simply say that "it's not your fault and you haven't done anything wrong etc" I've had counselors tell me that I should leave the church because it's just giving me unnecessary anxiety and honestly I would give anything to not feel this way but the gospel is a huge part of my life. I've been terrified that if I don't do everything exactly right then I'll lose this baby too so I consistently read the scriptures, pray, go to church I even signed up for institute classes thinking if I immerse myself completely these feelings would go away. I don't know if I need to just take a step back and give myself room to breathe and then come back when I'm ready or continue pushing through this depression and anxiety immersing myself? The reason I mentioned that we live with our in-laws is that this is adding to my ever long list of anxiety. 

Mari,

While not the same thing, my wife and I are unable to have children.  During our early years of dealing with this, my wife struggled with many of the same emotions, especially feeling it was her and/or my fault for lack of righteousness.  The only thing I can tell you is that you must mentally de-link your righteousness from this trial.  God's hand is in our lives, but that doesn't mean everything is exactly the way he wants it to be at all times.  I can assure you that your personal righteousness will not affect the outcome of this child.*

My real question though is, what about this struggle affects your testimony of the gospel?  Are they just two things that are happening simultaneously, or does this trial affect the testimony, and how?  If you decided that you no longer believed in the Restored Gospel, what would you believe instead?  How would that be more beneficial to you?

The reason these questions are important, is because, is the gospel and it's doctrines causing a problem, or is it the flawed interpretations and/or judgments of other people the problem?

EDIT: *Caveat for the nitpickers: Obviously alcohol and other physically harmful substances or actions would affect things.  Also, if your patriarchal blessing has indicated that your family and child rearing is dependent on your righteousness (which I've never seen in anyone's before btw) then that would be important information to keep in consideration as well.

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1 hour ago, person0 said:

To answer the questions you asked reguarding my testimony I presume it's just part of the emotional spiral that has left me wondering if church should be causing this much anxiety not so much doctrine I do believe in the gospel and its principles. To give you a better outlook into losing my child my husband and I were married in the temple we just weren't very active in our ward due to work etc so my guilt is mainly centered around that I'm not looking into leaving just wondering if I should take a step back to prove to myself that losing her wasn't because of something I did. Or if not attending church regularly while Im in this emotional rut will cause more problems in the long run? I know that sounds crazy but I'm not sure what else to try.

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3 hours ago, MormonGator said:

Anxiety is a horrible thing. I'm so sorry you are struggling with this right now. 

You are struggling right now, and I understand that totally. You have a lot on your plate. Have you tried looking into getting an LDS counselor? Maybe one who is aligned with the church or something? 

Sending love and prayers. Please stay strong. 

I havent been able to find one within my insurance do you know if there is a program through the church?

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2 hours ago, DoctorLemon said:

Big hugs!

Please keep in mind that, though works and making a good faith effort at being a decent person have a place in the Gospel, we are all saved ultimately by grace.  The writings of Paul are very helpful in this regard.  We all fall short, and it is OK - it is part of the human condition.  God will save us from death and eternal hell no matter what through grace, and through obedience to the gospel along with more grace we can become worthy for some very special blessings. 

What this means is that God would never punish you for some perceived shortcoming through a miscarriage.  That is not what God does, that is not who He is.  God is love, as stated in the Gospel of John.  He loves you, He knows what you are going through, and He is with you always.

Perhaps a solution would be to keep going to Church, keep reading scriptures a little every day, but also try and take time for you, have some fun, relax a little, do things that make you happy, and put some trust that Heavenly Father loves you, He is taking care of you, and He is with you, supporting you, cheering for you, and helping you no matter what?

 

Thank you I cannot tell you how much this has helped me today. I hadn't really been thinking of it this way it really does give some outside perspective.

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2 hours ago, Jane_Doe said:

First of all *hugs* and welcome to the forum.  I hear you, I've been there too.  

What you're suffering from now is a medical disease.  It has NOTHING to do with you being a horrible daughter of God (because you are a WONDERFUL daughter of God).   It is not caused by you going to Christ/Church and you leaving Christ/Church will not solve it.  And honestly, there's a good chance this isn't going to be solved by 24/7 scripture reading either (just like any other medical disease).   And pregnancy makes things so much more irractic.  

What you need to address a medical disease is a medical treatment.  Which form that medical treatment takes is best up to you and medical experts (different counseling, medication, etc).

Have you read Elder Hollands words on his own struggle with depression and how seeking medical treatment is needed?

Thank you for your reply I haven't heard it would you happen to know which conference it was from? I've been trying to seek counseling but I haven't found the right one just yet a lot of counselors seem to have a negative attitude about the church and I haven't found an lds counselor who works through my insurance 

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@MariDemure I'm so sorry that you've been through so much pain. My wife and I also struggled with infertility for years, and I know what it feels like to look in the mirror and blame myself and think maybe it's because of my sins. But it's just not true! God is not punishing you. He loves you with all of his heart. Remember John 3:16-17, "For God so loved the world that he sent his only Begotten son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God sent not His Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through Him might be saved."

Now remember that God tells us in Doctrine and Covenants 82:5 "Therefore, what I say unto one I say unto all...". Read through John 3:16-17 again and replace world with your name. God sent His Son to bring you home, not to punish you for your short comings. Too often because we strive to follow the commandments we forget about the Grace of our Lord Jesus Christ. He will save us if we endure to the end. We live in a fallen world. Horrible things happen to good people all the time because of that. But it does not mean God is punishing you when something bad happens! Sister you need God now more than ever, as you have a very overwhelming trial you are dealing with. He loves you with all of his heart. He sent His Son for you as much as for me don't forget that and think you have to do this on your own.

Ignore the counselor who told you to stop going to church. You need Christ to get through this now more than ever. I absolutely reccomend finding a counselor through LDS services as it really helped my wife when we were going through a very similiar trial, and they won't give you advice contrary to the Gospel. God bless you. I will pray for you, and I hope you find the peace you are looking for.

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On 11/15/2017 at 12:26 PM, MariDemure said:

I am pregnant with what would be our "rainbow baby" and currently struggling with depression. My husband and I have a large load of medical debt and are living with our in-laws temporarily. I am struggling imensly with my testimony of the gospel and its been extremely difficult for me. I have an unhealthy thought process that if I had been a better Mormon that we wouldn't have lost our first daughter and I know that simply isn't true but I can't stop those feelings from welling up inside of me I feel as though I'm doing something wrong all of the time even though I haven't. I feel like it's a really unhealthy self punishment I've prayed, looked for counsel and each time they simply say that "it's not your fault and you haven't done anything wrong etc" I've had counselors tell me that I should leave the church because it's just giving me unnecessary anxiety and honestly I would give anything to not feel this way but the gospel is a huge part of my life. I've been terrified that if I don't do everything exactly right then I'll lose this baby too so I consistently read the scriptures, pray, go to church I even signed up for institute classes thinking if I immerse myself completely these feelings would go away. I don't know if I need to just take a step back and give myself room to breathe and then come back when I'm ready or continue pushing through this depression and anxiety immersing myself? The reason I mentioned that we live with our in-laws is that this is adding to my ever long list of anxiety. 

So sorry for what you are going through.  i cannot speak with any degree of certainty, because i don't know the intricacies of the origins of your sense of guilt.  But i will say that if the church is a trigger - and it is for many people - then i don't think there is anything wrong with stepping back for a while.  Or at the very least, slowing down.  Not saying you should step back if you don't want to - just saying that if you feel you need to, you should not feel as if you are abandoning God and His Help by doing so.  God and Jesus and the help and hope they provide exist outside the mormon church. 

We vastly underestimate God and Jesus if we think that they are the sort of Beings that decide to take an active part in a child's death, solely because the parent isn't checking all the boxes in a list that most likely has a bunch of stuff in it that is not that important in the first place.  The worst among us in society are almost always better than this - and yet somehow, we assume that the most perfect and kind and compassionate Beings in the universe do exactly this.  And that's no beef on you - probably almost all of us do it.

Not sure where you are - but if you can perhaps find a grief support group for people who have suffered a similar loss as you?  It's very unlikely that anyone else - however well meaning - is going to understand how you are feeling.

And please ignore the aspects of my post that feel wrong.  Just things for you to consider.

Please take care.

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On 11/15/2017 at 1:26 PM, MariDemure said:

I have an unhealthy thought process that if I had been a better Mormon that we wouldn't have lost our first daughter and I know that simply isn't true but I can't stop those feelings from welling up inside of me I feel as though I'm doing something wrong all of the time even though I haven't. I feel like it's a really unhealthy self punishment I've prayed, looked for counsel and each time they simply say that "it's not your fault and you haven't done anything wrong etc"

Our feelings are largely a result of our thoughts, and our thoughts are based on how we interpret the events that happen to us. When some event occurs we run it through a mental filter. This mental filter is simply the automatic thoughts that we entertain to explain the event. Over and over we allow these thoughts to define the event, even if our thinking is incorrect. When our thinking is distorted, it is as if someone were sitting next to us telling us how bad we are. 

In your case it sounds like your automatic thoughts revolve around what Dr. David Burns called "presonalization" and "should statements" (see "Feeling Good" David D. Burns, p 42-43). Work on these distorted thoughts and you will start to feel differently. To personalize some negative event means to see yourself as the root cause of it, even if you are not responsible for it. In your case it is the loss of your daughter. You are not at fault for this but in your mind, you tell yourself you are. That is such a heavy load, and if you let it, that distortion will weigh on you until you can hardly move forward.

The other distortion you may be dealing with is "should statements". It may work something like this for you: since your unrighteousness caused your daughters death you "must" be even more exact in your obedience. This type of false reasoning does not motivate. Instead it leads to quite the opposite. Since you are pressuring yourself about what you "must" do you feel weighed down by guilt and shame. Perhaps you can carry on like this for a time but the weight will build over time until something has to give. 

So let me suggest a starting point that has helped me from time to time. Its a tool called "Daily Record of Dysfunctional Thoughts". If you look it up on the internet you will find a template you can print out. This tool allows you to analyze the situation, your emotions, the distorted and automatic thoughts, the rational response, and the subsequent outcome. At first you may need to use this every day. If you are feeling the weight of life on you use this form to analyze why. It can help. As you start to see your situation more rationally you will be able to see where you can step back. You will give yourself permission to let go of the weight you carry. 

This is of course does not happen overnight and a good therapist will help in this effort. But if you start to correct your thinking I believe you will begin to find a more complete joy in life and in this gospel again. Keep your chin up, there are brighter days ahead!

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On 11/15/2017 at 5:39 PM, MariDemure said:

Thank you for your reply I haven't heard it would you happen to know which conference it was from?

Here you go:  https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2013/10/like-a-broken-vessel?lang=eng

Other great one's include:

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2017/04/songs-sung-and-unsung?lang=eng  (this is the only talk I've listen to and literally had to re-wind and play it again right away)

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2017/10/be-ye-therefore-perfect-eventually?lang=eng  This is from last Oct.

On 11/15/2017 at 5:39 PM, MariDemure said:

 I've been trying to seek counseling but I haven't found the right one just yet a lot of counselors seem to have a negative attitude about the church and I haven't found an lds counselor who works through my insurance 

When I went counseling myself, I mega-researched potential counselors, and set "meet and greet" appoints with three before making my selection.  You got to find somebody who shares your values (or at least respects them)--- and flat out ask them about it to their face.  They don't have to be LDS, but generic Christian, or even just respectful of faith.  

On a different note: yes, there are some counselors who want to "eat drink and be marry" and want to listen to other tunes.  Obviously you don't want one of those.  You have the right to ask them of their philosophy and you SHOULD.  Having an appropriate match between counselor and counsel-ee is important for everyone.

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On 11/15/2017 at 7:32 PM, MariDemure said:

I havent been able to find one within my insurance do you know if there is a program through the church?

That is a very  good question and one I do not know. @Vort, @Just_A_Guy-do you guys have an answer to this question? 

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18 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

That is a very  good question and one I do not know. @Vort, @Just_A_Guy-do you guys have an answer to this question? 

If you are counselor-shopping, be extremely blunt with them about your religious convictions and requirements that those convictions be strictly respected, and insist that they be equally candid. I would advise talking with your bishop and asking for his input; he may well be able to recommend counselors that are either LDS or LDS-friendly. (The latter is all that's necessary; too often, those who fall in the former group and call themselves LDS are really LDS-INOs. Such counselors are usually much worse than no counselor at all.)

I don't have the highest possible opinion of psychology; I consider it mostly a pseudoscience. So I'm maybe not the right person to ask. But I do think some useful things can sometimes come from consulting with psychologists and counselors, especially those who aren't grinding an axe and know how to be empathetic, loving, and wise. Just tread very carefully and insist on absolute candor at all times. Be ready to walk out the door AND NEVER RETURN if they violate that agreement of honesty.

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On 11/15/2017 at 5:32 PM, MariDemure said:

I havent been able to find one within my insurance do you know if there is a program through the church?

First, I'm so sorry for the pain you and your husband are going through.  I have no idea what it's like, but I've reached out to a friend who does, in hopes she might have some comforting words for you.

Second, I completely agree with what @DoctorLemon said - God would not use the death of an infant (born yet or not) as punishment.  He just wouldn't.

Third, I think you would be surprised how many others have been through this experience - people just tend not to speak of it, so no one knows.  If you haven't, you might look for a support group - or even a group that provides services for couples who have lost an infant, as they often have (or even are) support groups.  I learned this through a group which makes clothing for these infants.

Finally, if you haven't, consider talking to your bishop or Relief Society president.  They may know of support groups, or reliable counselors in your area, or be able to put you in contact with LDS Family Services, who may be able to provide temporary counseling (even if it's remote, like over the phone).

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1 hour ago, MormonGator said:

That is a very  good question and one I do not know. @Vort, @Just_A_Guy-do you guys have an answer to this question? 

I really can’t add anything, except that a surprising number of counselors will work on a sliding fee scale depending on the client’s income level.

My understanding is that it’s a professional ethics thing that counselors are supposed to work within a client’s chosen cultural/religious tradition, not against it.  I’d be thinking seriously about complaining to the licensing authority of any counselor who told me to leave my church.

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@MariDemure So sorry that you are going through this! Hugs. Could part of what you are feeling be assiciated with the hormones related to pregnancy? Remember how you felt as a teenager around your periods with the hormones associated with your period? Some of this may be part of that illusion associated with the hormones. I think institute is a great ideal! Good for you. And the immerse yourself idea is sound. How about a trip to the temple or just a visit to the temple grounds? Praying for you!

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Music can help by providing perspective and temporary relief

 

1. Where can I turn for peace?

Where is my solace

When other sources cease to make me whole?

When with a wounded heart, anger, or malice,

I draw myself apart,

Searching my soul?

 

2. Where, when my aching grows,

Where, when I languish,

Where, in my need to know, where can I run?

Where is the quiet hand to calm my anguish?

Who, who can understand?

He, only One.

 

3. He answers privately,

Reaches my reaching

In my Gethsemane, Savior and Friend.

Gentle the peace he finds for my beseeching.

Constant he is and kind,

Love without end.

To hear the choir sing this hymn to you, click here, https://www.lds.org/music/library/hymns/where-can-i-turn-for-peace?lang=eng

 

1. Though deep’ning trials throng your way,

Press on, press on, ye Saints of God!

Ere long the resurrection day

Will spread its life and truth abroad,

Will spread its life and truth abroad.

 

2. Though outward ills await us here,

The time, at longest, is not long

Ere Jesus Christ will reappear,

Surrounded by a glorious throng,

Surrounded by a glorious throng.

 

3. Lift up your hearts in praise to God;

Let your rejoicings never cease.

Though tribulations rage abroad,

Christ says, “In me ye shall have peace.”

Christ says, “In me ye shall have peace.”

 

4. What though our rights have been assailed?

What though by foes we’ve been despoiled?

Jehovah’s promise has not failed;

Jehovah’s purpose is not foiled.

Jehovah’s purpose is not foiled

 

5. This work is moving on apace,

And great events are rolling forth;

The kingdom of the latter days,

The “little stone,” must fill the earth.

The “little stone,” must fill the earth.

 

6. Though Satan rage, ’tis all in vain;

The words the ancient prophet spoke

Sure as the throne of God remain;

Nor men nor devils can revoke.

Nor men nor devils can revoke.

 

7. All glory to his holy name

Who sends his faithful servants forth

To prove the nations, to proclaim

Salvation’s tidings through the earth.

Salvation’s tidings through the earth.

https://www.lds.org/music/library/hymns/though-deepening-trials?lang=eng

 

This should help you find the LDS Family Services office closest to your home but before you see them you need to be referred by your bishop. 

https://providentliving.lds.org/lds-family-services/find-an-office?lang=eng

 

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  • 3 weeks later...

MariDemure - My Relief Society President forwarded your post to me a couple of weeks ago knowing that I too had been in a similar situation to yours.  I lost my baby 18 years ago in October.  When I became pregnant with my own "rainbow baby" I suffered with severe depression and anxiety.  I was convinced I was going to lose that baby too despite the fact that I had two older, healthy children.  I think through the experience of severe, intense grief our thought processes can become out of balance.  My pediatrician at the time told me that when the brain experiences trauma actual chemical changes take place that effect personality, thought processes, etc.  And then add to that the hormonal changes a woman goes through during pregnancy and no wonder we are so stressed out emotionally!

I don't know that I have any wisdom or advice to offer you but I did want you to know that someone out there understands what you are going through.  It is certainly a difficult and stressful time during subsequent pregnancy after loss.  Remember that it is so important to take care of yourself physically especially making sure you are getting enough sleep.  It is through restful sleep that our brain "decompresses" and resets.  

Yesterday in preparation for our Relief Society lesson, I read one of my favorite scriptures several times and it brought me comfort.  I hope it will do the same for you.  Proverbs 3: 5-6:  "Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths."

Please know that others have walked this difficult path before and have made it to the other side.  You will, too.

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  • 5 months later...
On 11/15/2017 at 2:26 PM, MariDemure said:

I am pregnant with what would be our "rainbow baby" and currently struggling with depression. My husband and I have a large load of medical debt and are living with our in-laws temporarily. I am struggling imensly with my testimony of the gospel and its been extremely difficult for me. I have an unhealthy thought process that if I had been a better Mormon that we wouldn't have lost our first daughter and I know that simply isn't true but I can't stop those feelings from welling up inside of me I feel as though I'm doing something wrong all of the time even though I haven't. I feel like it's a really unhealthy self punishment I've prayed, looked for counsel and each time they simply say that "it's not your fault and you haven't done anything wrong etc" I've had counselors tell me that I should leave the church because it's just giving me unnecessary anxiety and honestly I would give anything to not feel this way but the gospel is a huge part of my life. I've been terrified that if I don't do everything exactly right then I'll lose this baby too so I consistently read the scriptures, pray, go to church I even signed up for institute classes thinking if I immerse myself completely these feelings would go away. I don't know if I need to just take a step back and give myself room to breathe and then come back when I'm ready or continue pushing through this depression and anxiety immersing myself? The reason I mentioned that we live with our in-laws is that this is adding to my ever long list of anxiety. 

Madame Mari,

The Lord is with you and all of your pain and anguish, if endured well, will be a crown upon your head. Your posterity will look up to you and they will thank the Heavens for having such a wonderful Mother.

May the Lord bless you with these things

.. let's break things down and see them how they really are

- Child Death

-Medical Debt

-Feeling uncertain about testimony

-want relief from mental/emotional trauma

1. Your sweet child was brought into this world and grew/toiled in your belly and at some point died before reaching mature age. Do not blame yourself if you did everything in your power to raise up a healthy child. The sun shines on the righteous and the wicked. It also rains and storms on both in the same manner. Try reading this. It might give you some insight.

https://www.lds.org/manual/teachings-joseph-f-smith/chapter-15?lang=eng

2. Medical Debt - You should contact family and friends to help with this.  Reach out to the bishop and reach out to local programs that help low income families. You will find something for sure that will help alleviate the burden

3. Feeling uncertain about testimony - don't lose faith. Losing a child (as you know) is not a small thing. It would rock the soul of any loving parent. Remember that Jesus knows everything you are feeling at this time. He knows your sorrow and frustration. Continue to pray and read. Feeling empty after a traumatic event is very normal and with help can be softened and returned to joy that you once felt.

4. Mental and Emotional trauma - At this time it is very normal to feel anxious about your new baby. Congratulations!  It is exciting once again to be pregnant I am sure. There does need to be some healing from your first pregnancy. postpartum and ptsd - Can very hard to cope with. I am not sure if you are diagnosed officially with any of the two or anxiety, depression, generalized anxiety disorder. Could be any. The point is it is very important to seek out a therapist that you click with that will help you cope with these sad AND exciting new feelings. Your body and mind are going through a roller coaster of a chemical changes (as mentioned by one comment) it is a normal process of child bearing. Also remember that you can go to therapy and pick out advice that doesn't make sense to you and keep the rest.

If you are getting overwhelmed at church TELL YOUR LEADERS they will help accommodate you and even provide assistance I am sure.

*I am not sure if your baby has been born yet. Feel free to message me directly and share with me any improvements (or not, may this not be the case)

You will gain your strength back C :

 

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