Confession Questions

[anatess2]

29 minutes ago, fatima said:

I didn't compare Lord's Supper to Lord's Supper.  I compared the greatest gift/experience in the Catholic faith to the greatest gift/experience in the LDS faith, the Temple.  

 

27 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

You're misunderstanding LDS theology here, that's one reason your comparison is faulty.

It's kinda like this:

One school only has K-8.  The other school has K-12.  You're trying to compare the requirements for passing 8th grade - as it is the greatest gift/experience in the K-8 school to the requirements in passing 12th grade as the greatest gift/experience in the K-12 school.  It just doesn't compare.

[Blueskye2]

15 hours ago, anatess2 said:

 

It's kinda like this:

One school only has K-8.  The other school has K-12.  You're trying to compare the requirements for passing 8th grade - as it is the greatest gift/experience in the K-8 school to the requirements in passing 12th grade as the greatest gift/experience in the K-12 school.  It just doesn't compare.

Well, if we’re going to go all condescending. One is a real school and the other are like children who play school!

Or we can go back to accepting that the summit of faith for each have equal importance for each, respectively, and respectfully. 

Edited December 6, 2017 by Blueskye2

[Jane_Doe]

54 minutes ago, Blueskye2 said:

Well, if we’re going to go all condescending. One is a real school and the other are like children who play school!

Or we can go back to accepting that the summit of faith for each have equal importance for each, respectively, and respectfully. 

There's nothing condescending here or against the Catholics faith.  We're just explaining LDS beliefs in regards to different LDS ordinances.

[anatess2]

3 hours ago, Blueskye2 said:

Well, if we’re going to go all condescending. One is a real school and the other are like children who play school!

Or we can go back to accepting that the summit of faith for each have equal importance for each, respectively, and respectfully. 

That is not condescension nor disrespectful.  It is a statement of fact.  Catholic doctrine is missing some restored gospel (that's why it needed to be restored).  For example - 1.)  Doctrine on Pre-Mortal Existence, 2.) Doctrine on Eternal Families, 3.) Doctrine on post-Mortal progression, etc. etc.  Those things do not exist in Catholic teaching.  Temple ordinances in the LDS Church is a teaching that goes beyond the scope of Catholic doctrine.  You don't have to believe they are true.  But using them in comparison is as I illustrated - If Catholicism was K-8, LDS temple ordinances are beyond it - high school, as it is higher ordinances.  And that's why we keep on saying fatima (and I guess you too?) doesn't understand temple ordinances because you keep on saying the requirements are comparable.  They are not.

Edited December 6, 2017 by anatess2

[NeuroTypical]

3 hours ago, Blueskye2 said:

Well, if we’re going to go all condescending.

This isn't a "bring and share your beliefs" board.  This is a "learn about all things LDS" board.  You've got to expect us to think we're right here. 

When I go to the CAF boards, my beliefs and teachings only get accepted to the extent to which they align with Catholic belief and teaching.  Otherwise, I've come to expect correction and folks pointing out where they think I'm wrong.  

I have noticed a lot of Catholics like to toss around terms like "condescending" and "disingenuous" a whole lot more than I do.  

Edited December 6, 2017 by NeuroTypical

[Maureen]

Quote

The comparison I was trying to make was participation in the most sacred experience in each of our respective faiths: the Eucharist and the Temple. 

Quote

You're misunderstanding LDS theology here, that's one reason your comparison is faulty.

@Jane_Doe, are you trying to say that participating in the Temple is NOT the most sacred experience for a Mormon?

M.

[Guest MormonGator]

42 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

I have noticed a lot of Catholics like to toss around terms like "condescending" and "disingenuous" a whole lot more than I do.  

Speaking as a former Catholic, I agree 10000%. Yes it's a generality but that doesn't mean it's not generally correct. 

[anatess2]

3 minutes ago, Maureen said:

@Jane_Doe, are you trying to say that participating in the Temple is NOT the most sacred experience for a Mormon?

M.

That's not the point.  The point is the requirements to qualify for temple ordinances versus the requirements to qualify for partaking of the Eucharist.  The requirements is not about "most sacred experience".  There's no ordinance more sacred than another.  They are all sacred.

[Guest MormonGator]

@NeuroTypical raises a good point. I think sometimes we forget that when talking to someone who doesn't share our religion, they might not act with what we think is proper reverence and respect. A Catholic might be shocked and appalled if a protestant doesn't believe in the true presence and a super devout LDS might be deeply offended if they talk to a Catholic who doesn't believe that Smith Jr was a prophet.  

Edited December 6, 2017 by MormonGator

[Vort]

59 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

I have noticed a lot of Catholics like to toss around terms like "condescending" and "disingenuous" a whole lot more than I do.

How condescending and disingenuous of those Catholics.

[Maureen]

44 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

That's not the point.  The point is the requirements to qualify for temple ordinances versus the requirements to qualify for partaking of the Eucharist.  The requirements is not about "most sacred experience".  There's no ordinance more sacred than another.  They are all sacred.

That might not be "your" point but it was @fatima's point. The Temple experience to a Mormon is just as sacred as the Eucharist is to a Catholic.

M.

[zil]

4 minutes ago, Maureen said:

That might not be "your" point but it was @fatima's point. The Temple experience to a Mormon is just as sacred as the Eucharist is to a Catholic.

M.

I submit that no one who doesn't believe in both faiths at the same time (an impossibility) can say that.  There is no way for someone who is not a faithful Mormon to know just how sacred an experience various temple ordinances are (PS: which one are we talking about, and what person, because a person's views can change); and there is no way for someone who is not a Catholic to claim to understand just how sacred an experience the Eucharist is (and again, I am certain that this will vary by person, and throughout  person's lifetime).

What is possible, however is to compare some facts:

1. Each ordinance / rite involves X.
2. A person can only participate in the ordinance / rite if X.
3. Failure to maintain worthiness results in X.
4. Violation of the covenant (if there is one) results in X.
5. etc.

One can then say how well any given ordinances / rites "match up" for comparison.

[anatess2]

13 minutes ago, Maureen said:

That might not be "your" point but it was @fatima's point. The Temple experience to a Mormon is just as sacred as the Eucharist is to a Catholic.

M.

No.  That wasn't fatima's point.  Fatima criticized our LDS bishops for denying members entrance to the temple when Catholic priests do not deny Catholics the Eucharist.  It is not about the sanctity of the ordinance, it is the REQUIREMENTS to qualify for the ordinance that she is criticizing.

Edited December 6, 2017 by anatess2

[fatima]

23 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

No.  That wasn't fatima's point.  Fatima criticized our LDS bishops for denying members entrance to the temple when Catholic priests do not deny Catholics the Eucharist.  It is not about the sanctity of the ordinance, it is the REQUIREMENTS to qualify for the ordinance that she is criticizing.

I did not criticize, I observed.  

This IS an LDS beliefs board, so I don't expect LDS posters to agree with Catholic teaching on points x, y and z.  However, that inter-faith respect we all claim to want has to have a place on an LDS board and a Catholic board.

I have absolutely no dispute with the LDS requirements for entering the Temple.  While I disagree with LDS theology, I love and respect any individual who seeks the Will of God and does His Will as they honestly believe it to be.

[Jane_Doe]

@fatima, LDS regard all ordinance as being sacred.  We don't view one as being "more sacred" as the other simply because it comes later in a person's walk with Christ.  For example, confirmation is not "more sacred" because than baptism because confirmation comes after baptism.   We've been trying to stress that in this conversation, and I apologize if it didn't come through the clearest.  

I don't think any one here is trying to attack the Catholic faith (and if they are, that's wrong).   We're just trying to explain that comparing the "sacredness"/requirements of the Lord's Supper in the Catholic Church, versus the "sacredness"/requirements of becoming an LDS priest doesn't make a lot of sense (or any other combination of rites/churches you'd like).  

[fatima]

41 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

@fatima, LDS regard all ordinance as being sacred.  We don't view one as being "more sacred" as the other simply because it comes later in a person's walk with Christ.  For example, confirmation is not "more sacred" because than baptism because confirmation comes after baptism.   We've been trying to stress that in this conversation, and I apologize if it didn't come through the clearest.  

I don't think any one here is trying to attack the Catholic faith (and if they are, that's wrong).   We're just trying to explain that comparing the "sacredness"/requirements of the Lord's Supper in the Catholic Church, versus the "sacredness"/requirements of becoming an LDS priest doesn't make a lot of sense (or any other combination of rites/churches you'd like).  

Once again, I am not comparing the Lord's Supper in the Catholic Church to the requirements of becoming an LDS priest, or the LDS Lord's Supper.  I am comparing what Catholics view as most sacred (Eucharist) to what LDS view as most sacred (visiting/participating in the Temple).   Just as LDS are supposed to be 'worthy' to enter the Temple, a Catholic is supposed to be 'worthy' to receive the Eucharist.  In Catholic language we might say 'worthy', or we might say that one must be 'in a state of grace'.  

My additional observation was that for LDS, the bishop determines if a person is worthy of the Temple by means of an interview.  Catholics have no such interview process, and they do not present anything like a 'recommend' in order to receive the Eucharist.  It was not a criticism as @anatess suggested.  In fact, I can't say I would mind if Catholics were turned away from the Eucharist more often (disclaimer: it does happen that a priest can sometimes withhold the Eucharist, but I won't get into that here)

I can't say that I understand the word 'ordinance' properly with respect to the LDS faith.  Are the things in the Temple 'ordinances', or sealings, or something else?  I always thought the only LDS ordinance was the Lord's Supper in the wards.  I thought the Temple was for sealings and endowments.

[Vort]

1 hour ago, Jane_Doe said:

I don't think any one here is trying to attack the Catholic faith (and if they are, that's wrong).

This is true, but I don't believe it's relevant. The real point is that this forum is called "Learn about the Mormon Church". It is not called "Learn about the Catholic Church". It is not called "Point Out Why the Mormon Church Doesn't Live Up to Your Personal Expectations".

It is one thing for Fatima to note relevant differences between LDS practice and Roman Catholic practice. It is quite another for her to proclaim LDS practices deficient in some way, or offer any other criticism of the LDS faith. On this particular subforum, at least, all such criticisms (even those phrased as "observations") are out of place.

[Blueskye2]

5 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

This isn't a "bring and share your beliefs" board.  This is a "learn about all things LDS" board.  You've got to expect us to think we're right here. 

When I go to the CAF boards, my beliefs and teachings only get accepted to the extent to which they align with Catholic belief and teaching.  Otherwise, I've come to expect correction and folks pointing out where they think I'm wrong.  

I have noticed a lot of Catholics like to toss around terms like "condescending" and "disingenuous" a whole lot more than I do.  

Ok then I get it. This is an LDS only board (that borders on a recovery from Catholicism board). 

Don’t have to tell me twice. I’m out. 

[Jane_Doe]

4 hours ago, fatima said:

I am comparing what Catholics view as most sacred (Eucharist) to what LDS view as most sacred (visiting/participating in the Temple).   

The underlined is not true of LDS beliefs.  LDS view all ordinances are sacred, not one more so than the other.  That's one reason your comparison is fundamentally flawed.  

 

4 hours ago, fatima said:

My additional observation was that for LDS, the bishop determines if a person is worthy of the Temple by means of an interview.  Catholics have no such interview process, and they do not present anything like a 'recommend' in order to receive the Eucharist. 

Again, this is an improper comparison.  The proper comparison for Catholics partaking in the Lord's Supper in the LDS faith is LDS partaking the Lord's Supper.  

4 hours ago, fatima said:

I can't say that I understand the word 'ordinance' properly with respect to the LDS faith.  Are the things in the Temple 'ordinances', or sealings, or something else?  I always thought the only LDS ordinance was the Lord's Supper in the wards.  I thought the Temple was for sealings and endowments.

LDS partake of the Lord's Supper every Sunday in church.  We call it the "sacrament" and even call the meeting "Sacrament Meeting" to honor this.  The temple is for becoming high priest/priestess, and covenant marriage, and is properly compared to the Catholic rites of becoming a priest or marriage. 

 

[NeuroTypical]

4 hours ago, Blueskye2 said:

Ok then I get it. This is an LDS only board (that borders on a recovery from Catholicism board). 

Don’t have to tell me twice. I’m out. 

That came across as a little passive-aggressive, Blueskye2.  If you want to throw away 444 posts of activity and leave in a huff, that's your choice.  But no, this isn't an "LDS only" board - everyone is welcome, but we don't provide a podium for proselytizing for other faiths.  

As for the "recovery from Catholicism" part, yes, we have one or two here I suppose.  Again, why not go check out the Catholic Answers Forum pages and count the recovery from mormonism threads.  Take a look at their "other religions" forum, and count all the "here's why this or that religion is false and wrong" threads.  Then come here and try to find even one.  You might find my comments on scientology, and dang little else. 

TL:DR, you're welcome to stay, you don't have a podium or a captive audience.  And if you want to complain about a forum that bashes other faiths, mind the beam and the mote and all that.
 

Edited December 7, 2017 by NeuroTypical

[Blueskye2]

19 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

That came across as a little passive-aggressive, Blueskye2.  If you want to throw away 444 posts of activity and leave in a huff, that's your choice.  But no, this isn't an "LDS only" board - everyone is welcome, but we don't provide a podium for proselytizing for other faiths.  

As for the "recovery from Catholicism" part, yes, we have one or two here I suppose.  Again, why not go check out the Catholic Answers Forum pages and count the recovery from mormonism threads.  Take a look at their "other religions" forum, and count all the "here's why this or that religion is false and wrong" threads.  Then come here and try to find even one.  You might find my comments on scientology, and dang little else. 

TL:DR, you're welcome to stay, you don't have a podium or a captive audience.  And if you want to complain about a forum that bashes other faiths, clean up your own backyard first.
 

I don’t really care about CAF. I tried conversing there but it’s too much, I’m right and you’re wrong, from everyone.People there suggested I go to a Traditional Catholic forum! Gosh, those folks are all about division.  I’m not interested.

As I said, the people who I love the most in this world are atheist. I enjoy discussions of faith with all people of faith, not just Catholic or Mormons or whatever.

I’m sorry to say I find here to be the same as CAF...no one looking for the commonality that is found among people of faith. Which is fine, it’s not my discussion forum. I don’t go on about Catholic stuff in an effort to convert anyone here. Was just hoping for more of a recognition that my faith is as important to me as it is to anyone here, as the commonality we share. People of faith.

It’s Advent, and I know people here would just think I was trying to convert someone, by posting anything related to Advent. Which I would do out of sharing faith, a commonality I thought might be here, but is not. I can have discussions about what separates us, anywhere, and everywhere.

My frustration with the world in general is not the fault of anyone here, but came out in my last post. Not wanting that to be my last post, I leave you all in peace and wish you all a blessed Advent, as we prepare for the coming of our Lord.

 

[Jane_Doe]

@Blueskye2, we do care about you and your beliefs.  Posting the "Christian beliefs" subforum might be more up your ally that the "Learn about the Mormon Church" subforum.

[estradling75]

1 minute ago, Blueskye2 said:

 

My frustration with the world in general is not the fault of anyone here, but came out in my last post. Not wanting that to be my last post, I leave you all in peace and wish you all a blessed Advent, as we prepare for the coming of our Lord.

 

Please note we have sub forums for different topics...  this thread is in the Learn about Mormon Church sub forum which means detailed explanations of other faiths is not correct...  However we also have a more general https://mormonhub.com/forums/forum/7-christian-beliefs-board/

That sub forum is more correct for the posting of non converting intended Catholic related stuff

[Blueskye2]

7 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

@Blueskye2, we do care about you and your beliefs.  Posting the "Christian beliefs" subforum might be more up your ally that the "Learn about the Mormon Church" subforum.

Thanks, but it is generally a forum where LDS post about what is wrong with Christianity.

This is an LDS forum, where people of other faiths are welcome as long as the don’t discuss their faith. I can find that kind of interaction  with my atheist friends and family. Where we discuss all of the other commonalities we have. 

I’m kind of dense sometimes, it’s true. It took me longer than it should have to figure this out.

[Jane_Doe]

2 minutes ago, Blueskye2 said:

This is an LDS forum, where people of other faiths are welcome as long as the don’t discuss their faith. I can find that kind of interaction  with my atheist friends and family. Where we discuss all of the other commonalities we have. 

I’m kind of dense sometimes, it’s true. It took me longer than it should have to figure this out.

Again, there's different subforms.  Talking about your beliefs would fall nicely in the "Christian beliefs" subforum of MormonHub.  That's why it exists