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    • Heather

      Mormon Hub Rules - Please be familiar with these rules before posting   04/17/08

        Any views expressed on Mormon Hub are independent of and do not represent the views of Mormon Hub, More Good Foundation, or Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Site Rules 1. Do not post, upload, or otherwise submit anything to the site that is derogatory towards The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, its teachings, or its leaders. Anti-LDS Propaganda will not be tolerated anywhere. 2. Please be conscious of the fact that although Mormon Hub is aimed towards an LDS audience, that the membership of this site consists of friends from an array of different backgrounds, beliefs, and cultures. Please be respectful and courteous to all, and know that everyone who is willing to follow the Rules and Terms of Mormon Hub are welcome to participate and be a member of Mormon Hub. Keep in mind that anything posted, uploaded, or otherwise displayed on the site should be understandable to friends of other faiths as well as to members. Please define any LDS vocabulary that friends of other faiths may not understand (i.e. Mutual, Relief Society, and Deacon.) 3. Personal attacks, name calling, flaming, and judgments against other members will not be tolerated. 4. No bickering and nit-picking toward others. Realize that sometimes it is very difficult to be able to express how one feels through written words. Please be courteous and ask for a further explanation, rather then trying to attack and find holes in someone else's post. 5. No cursing or crude language. Any swearing, including filter skipping, will result in an automatic one week suspension. 6. Posting issues you have with a moderator or administrator anywhere on the site will not be allowed. Please follow the chain of authority if you have any concerns. Any such posts will be removed and the poster will be subject to the consequences of breaking the rules. List of site moderators Course of action that should be taken if you have a concern: - Send a message directly to the moderator you have a concern about. If you are unable to work out the problem then, - Send a message to the head moderators. - If after you have approached both avenues, you may then send a message to Heather; however know that Heather is very unlikely to over rule anything that has been sanctioned by the moderators and head moderators. 7. Multiple accounts are not allowed and will result in all accounts being banned from the site. 8. Please do not share any "true" or "faith promoting" stories, unless you can verify the source. 9. Do not post any copyrighted material, unless the copyright is owned by you. 10. Bigoted/racial/ethnic comments will not be tolerated. Political Neutrality Policy More Good Foundation, as a nonprofit foundation, must remain neutral with respect to partisan politics and candidate campaigns for public office. The foundation encourages its members and staff to be informed about political issues and to be engaged in civic life; however, it does not endorse or oppose any political parties, candidates, or platforms. Mormon Hub will allow political discussion, also long as all posts remain neutral with respect to partisan politics and candidate campaigns for public office. You may not use the site to show support, endorse, oppose or sanction any candidate. In addition, all posts must be respectful and sensitive to readers of all political beliefs and backgrounds. Any post that violates any of the above conditions will be dealt with according to the consequences of breaking the rules. As a non-profit organization, 501©3, we are governed by legal constraints relative to writing, blogging, or otherwise endorsing any candidate running for political office. The law states, in effect, that no one acting on behalf of the nonprofit can intervene directly or indirectly in the election process by endorsing a political candidate. Any post that speaks favorably about one candidate, even in a religious context, can be construed as indirect intervention in the election process. While journalists are presently exempt from this provision, bloggers and forum-members are not. 12. You agree, through your use of this service, that you will not use this site to post any material which is knowingly false and/or defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, sexually oriented, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy, or otherwise in violation of any law. 13. You will not use this site to solicit the sale of any product, service or website. You will not use this site to promote a money making venture or contest. If appropriate, you may post a link to your personal website or to your business on your profile, in your forum signature, and you make create one post in the web link section of the forum. Do not post any link or discuss any business, service, or website that violates any rule of Mormon Hub. Mormon Hub is not responsible for the content of any site linked on Mormon Hub. Consequences to these rules could result in the following, and are determined on a case by case basis. Anything that an Administrator or Moderator determines is more than just an infraction of the rules, will result in immediate banning from the site and/or legal action: First infraction will result in a warning and a message from a moderator on what rule was broken. Second infraction will result in a one week suspension followed by a two week moderator post approval Third infraction will result in banned from the site for good. Any topic, message, video, music, image, or other upload or submission to the site that breaks any rules will be deleted. Please remember that we are not responsible for anything posted or uploaded. We do not vouch for or warrant the accuracy, completeness or usefulness of any message or upload. We are not responsible for the contents of any message, video, image, post or upload. The messages express the views of the author of the message, not necessarily the views of Mormon Hub , More Good Foundation, or The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Any user who feels that a posted message is objectionable is encouraged to contact the Administration immediately by Private Message, Email, or Report a Post. We will make every effort to remove objectionable messages and uploads within a reasonable time frame, if we determine that removal is necessary. Mormon Hub Terms of Use Agreement January 8, 2008 Mormon Hub is a social networking service that allows Members to create unique personal profiles online in order to find and communicate with old and new friends. Mormon Hub refers to "Mormon Hub or its proprietors." The services offered by Mormon Hub ("Mormon Hub" or "we") include the Mormon Hub website (the "Mormon Hub Website"), the Mormon Hub Internet messaging service, and any other features, content, or applications offered from time to time by Mormon Hub in connection with the Mormon Hub Website (collectively, the "Mormon Hub Services"). The Mormon Hub Services are hosted in the U.S. This Terms of Use Agreement ("Agreement") sets forth the legally binding terms for your use of the Mormon Hub Services. By using the Mormon Hub Services, you agree to be bound by this Agreement, whether you are a "Visitor" (which means that you simply browse the Mormon Hub Website) or you are a "Member" (which means that you have registered with Mormon Hub). The term "User" refers to a Visitor or a Member. You are only authorized to use the Mormon Hub Services (regardless of whether your access or use is intended) if you agree to abide by all applicable laws and to this Agreement. Please read this Agreement carefully and save it. If you do not agree with it, you should leave the Mormon Hub Website and discontinue use of the Mormon Hub Services immediately. If you wish to become a Member, communicate with other Members and make use of the Mormon Hub Services, you must read this Agreement and indicate your acceptance during the Registration process. This Agreement includes Mormon Hub's policy for acceptable use of the Mormon Hub Services and Content posted on the Mormon Hub Website, your rights, obligations and restrictions regarding your use of the Mormon Hub Services and Mormon Hub's Privacy Policy. In order to participate in certain Mormon Hub Services, you may be notified that you are required to download software or content and/or agree to additional terms and conditions. Unless otherwise provided by the additional terms and conditions applicable to the Mormon Hub Services in which you choose to participate, those additional terms are hereby incorporated into this Agreement.  Mormon Hub may modify this Agreement from time to time and such modification shall be effective upon posting by Mormon Hub on the Mormon Hub Website. You agree to be bound to any changes to this Agreement when you use the Mormon Hub Services after any such modification is posted. It is therefore important that you review this Agreement regularly to ensure you are updated as to any changes. Please choose carefully the information you post on Mormon Hub and that you provide to other Users. You may NOT include any of the following information anywhere on Mormon Hub, including private messages: telephone numbers, street addresses, last names, and any photographs containing nudity, or obscene, lewd, excessively violent, harassing, sexually explicit or otherwise objectionable subject matter. Email addresses should NEVER be posted to the general public. Despite this prohibition, information provided by other Mormon Hub Members (for instance, in their Profile) may contain inaccurate, inappropriate, offensive or sexually explicit material, products or services, and Mormon Hub assumes no responsibility or liability for this material. If you become aware of misuse of the Mormon Hub Services by any person, please contact Mormon Hub or click on the "Report Inappropriate Content" link at the bottom of any Mormon Hub page. Mormon Hub reserves the right, in its sole discretion, to moderate, reject, refuse to post or remove any posting (including private messages) by you, or to restrict, suspend, or terminate your access to all or any part of the Mormon Hub Services at any time, for any or no reason, with or without prior notice, and without liability. Mormon Hub expressly reserves the right to remove your profile and/or restrict, suspend, or terminate your access to any part of Mormon Hub Services if Mormon Hub determines, in its sole discretion, that you pose a threat to Mormon Hub and/or its Users. Mormon Hub reserves the right to ask a member to change their username if it is found to be offensive or can be perceived as offensive. Due to the sacredness, this would include any usernames that include, Jesus, Christ, God, Lord, names of Prophets, General authorities etc. The names of personal or business websites, blogs, etc. to promote said sites is also prohibited. Using names of political figures or party affiliation is also prohibited. 1. Eligibility. Use of and Membership in the Mormon Hub Services is void where prohibited. By using the Mormon Hub Services, you represent and warrant that (a) all registration information you submit is truthful and accurate; ( B) you will maintain the accuracy of such information; © you are 14 years of age or older; and (d) your use of the Mormon Hub Services does not violate any applicable law or regulation. Your profile may be deleted and your Membership may be terminated without warning, if we believe that you are under 13 years of age. 2. Term. This Agreement shall remain in full force and effect while you use the Mormon Hub Services or are a Member. You may terminate your Membership at any time, for any reason, emailing an admin. Mormon Hub may terminate your Membership at any time, without warning. Even after Membership is terminated, this Agreement will remain in effect, including sections 5-17. 3. Password. When you sign up to become a Member, you will also be asked to choose a password. You are entirely responsible for maintaining the confidentiality of your password. You agree not to use the account, username, or password of another Member at any time or to disclose your password to any third party. You agree to notify Mormon Hub immediately if you suspect any unauthorized use of your account or access to your password. You are solely responsible for any and all use of your account. 4. Non-commercial Use by Members. The Mormon Hub Services are for the personal use of Members only and may not be used in connection with any commercial endeavors except those that are specifically endorsed or approved by Mormon Hub. Illegal and/or unauthorized use of the Mormon Hub Services, including collecting usernames and/or email addresses of Members by electronic or other means for the purpose of sending unsolicited email or unauthorized framing of or linking to the Mormon Hub Website is prohibited. Commercial advertisements, affiliate links, and other forms of solicitation may be removed from Member profiles without notice and may result in termination of Membership privileges. Appropriate legal action will be taken for any illegal or unauthorized use of the Mormon Hub Services. 5. Proprietary Rights in Content on Mormon Hub. Mormon Hub does not claim any ownership rights in the text, files, images, photos, video, sounds, musical works, works of authorship, or any other materials (collectively, "Content") that you post to the Mormon Hub Services. After posting your Content to the Mormon Hub Services, you continue to retain all ownership rights in such Content, and you continue to have the right to use your Content in any way you choose. By displaying or publishing ("posting") any Content on or through the Mormon Hub Services, you hereby grant to Mormon Hub a limited license to use, modify, publicly perform, publicly display, reproduce, and distribute such Content solely on and through the Mormon Hub Services.
      Without this license, Mormon Hub would be unable to provide the Mormon Hub Services. For example, without the right to modify Member Content, Mormon Hub would not be able to digitally compress music files that Members submit or otherwise format Content to satisfy technical requirements, and without the right to publicly perform Member Content, Mormon Hub could not allow Users to listen to music posted by Members. The license you grant to Mormon Hub is non-exclusive (meaning you are free to license your Content to anyone else in addition to Mormon Hub), fully-paid and royalty-free (meaning that Mormon Hub is not required to pay you for the use on the Mormon Hub Services of the Content that you post), sublicensable (so that Mormon Hub is able to use its affiliates and subcontractors such as Internet content delivery networks to provide the Mormon Hub Services), and worldwide (because the Internet and the Mormon Hub Services are global in reach). This license will terminate at the time you remove your Content from the Mormon Hub Services. The license does not grant Mormon Hub the right to sell your Content, nor does the license grant Mormon Hub the right to distribute your Content outside of the Mormon Hub Services. You represent and warrant that: (i) you own the Content posted by you on or through the Mormon Hub Services or otherwise have the right to grant the license set forth in this section, and (ii) the posting of your Content on or through the Mormon Hub Services does not violate the privacy rights, publicity rights, copyrights, contract rights or any other rights of any person. You agree to pay for all royalties, fees, and any other monies owing any person by reason of any Content posted by you to or through the LDS.Mormon Hub Services. The Mormon Hub Services contain Content of Mormon Hub ("Mormon Hub Content"). Mormon Hub Content is protected by copyright, trademark, patent, trade secret and other laws, and Mormon Hub owns and retains all rights in the Mormon Hub Content and the Mormon Hub Services. Mormon Hub hereby grants you a limited, revocable, nonsublicensable license to reproduce and display the Mormon Hub Content (excluding any software code) solely for your personal use in connection with viewing the Mormon Hub Website and using the Mormon Hub Services. The Mormon Hub Services contain Content of Users and other Mormon Hub licensors. Except for Content posted by you, you may not copy, modify, translate, publish, broadcast, transmit, distribute, perform, display, or sell any Content appearing on or through the Mormon Hub Services.   6. Content Posted. Mormon Hub may delete any Content that in the sole judgment of Mormon Hub violates this Agreement or which may be offensive, illegal or violate the rights, harm, or threaten the safety of any person. Mormon Hub assumes no responsibility for monitoring the Mormon Hub Services for inappropriate Content or conduct. If at any time Mormon Hub chooses, in its sole discretion, to monitor the Mormon Hub Services, Mormon Hub nonetheless assumes no responsibility for the Content, no obligation to modify or remove any inappropriate Content, and no responsibility for the conduct of the User submitting any such Content. You are solely responsible for the Content that you post on or through any of the Mormon Hub Services, and any material or information that you transmit to other Members and for your interactions with other Users. Mormon Hub does not endorse and has no control over the Content. Content is not necessarily reviewed by Mormon Hub prior to posting and does not necessarily reflect the opinions or policies of Mormon Hub. Mormon Hub makes no warranties, express or implied, as to the Content or to the accuracy and reliability of the Content or any material or information that you transmit to other Members.   7. Content/Activity Prohibited. The following is a partial list of the kind of Content that is illegal or prohibited to post on or through the Mormon Hub Services.Mormon Hub reserves the right to investigate and take appropriate legal action against anyone who, in Mormon Hub's sole discretion, violates this provision, including without limitation, removing the offending communication from the Mormon Hub Services and terminating the Membership of such violators. Prohibited Content includes, but is not limited to Content that, in the sole discretion of Mormon Hub: is patently offensive and promotes racism, bigotry, hatred or physical harm of any kind against any group or individual; harasses or advocates harassment of another person; exploits people in a sexual or violent manner; contains nudity, violence, or offensive subject matter or contains a link to an adult website; solicits personal information from anyone; provides any telephone numbers, street addresses, last names, URLs or email addresses; promotes information that you know is false or misleading or promotes illegal activities or conduct that is abusive, threatening, obscene, defamatory or libelous; promotes an illegal or unauthorized copy of another person's copyrighted work, such as providing pirated computer programs or links to them, providing information to circumvent manufacture-installed copy-protect devices, or providing pirated music or links to pirated music files; involves the transmission of "junk mail," "chain letters," or unsolicited mass mailing, instant messaging, "spimming," or "spamming"; contains restricted or password only access pages or hidden pages or images (those not linked to or from another accessible page); furthers or promotes any criminal activity or enterprise or provides instructional information about illegal activities including, but not limited to making or buying illegal weapons, violating someone's privacy, or providing or creating computer viruses; solicits passwords or personal identifying information for commercial or unlawful purposes from other Users; involves commercial activities and/or sales without our prior written consent such as contests, sweepstakes, barter, advertising, or pyramid schemes; includes a photograph of another person that you have posted without that person's consent; or uses sexually suggestive imagery or any other unfair, misleading or deceptive Content intended to draw traffic to the profile.
      The following is a partial list of the kind of activity that is illegal or prohibited on the Mormon Hub Website and through your use of the Mormon Hub Services. Mormon Hub reserves the right to investigate and take appropriate legal action against anyone who, in Mormon Hub's sole discretion, violates this provision, including without limitation, reporting you to law enforcement authorities. Prohibited activity includes, but is not limited to: criminal or tortuous activity, including child pornography, fraud, trafficking in obscene material, drug dealing, gambling, harassment, stalking, spamming, spimming, sending of viruses or other harmful files, copyright infringement, patent infringement, or theft of trade secrets; advertising to, or solicitation of, any Member to buy or sell any products or services through the Mormon Hub Services. You may not transmit any chain letters or junk email to other Members. It is also a violation of these rules to use any information obtained from the Mormon Hub Services in order to contact, advertise to, solicit, or sell to any Member without their prior explicit consent. In order to protect our Members from such advertising or solicitation, Mormon Hub reserves the right to restrict the number of emails which a Member may send to other Members in any 24-hour period to a number which Mormon Hub deems appropriate in its sole discretion. If you breach this Agreement and send unsolicited bulk email, instant messages or other unsolicited communications of any kind through the Mormon Hub Services, you acknowledge that you will have caused substantial harm to Mormon Hub, but that the amount of such harm would be extremely difficult to ascertain. As a reasonable estimation of such harm, you agree to pay Mormon Hub $50 for each such unsolicited email or other unsolicited communication you send through the Mormon Hub Services; covering or obscuring the banner advertisements on your personal profile page, or any Mormon Hub page via HTML/CSS or any other means; any automated use of the system, such as using scripts to add friends or send comments or messages; interfering with, disrupting, or creating an undue burden on the Mormon Hub Services or the networks or services connected to the Mormon Hub Services; attempting to impersonate another Member or person; copying the code for your Mormon Hub Player and embedding it into other profiles or asking other Members to embed it into their profiles; using the account, username, or password of another Member at any time or disclosing your password to any third party or permitting any third party to access your account; selling or otherwise transferring your profile; using any information obtained from the Mormon Hub Services in order to harass, abuse, or harm another person; displaying an advertisement on your profile, or accepting payment or anything of value from a third person in exchange for your performing any commercial activity on or through the Mormon Hub Services on behalf of that person, such as placing commercial content on your profile, posting blogs or bulletins with a commercial purpose, selecting a profile with a commercial purpose as one of your "Top" friends, or sending private messages with a commercial purpose; or using the Mormon Hub Services in a manner inconsistent with any and all applicable laws and regulations.   8. 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    • rpframe

      IMPORTANT!! -- Login Issues   09/12/17

      TL;DR; In order to fix login issues, a lot of people will have to reset their password. As of now, if you are unable to login, please attempt a "Forgot Password"/"Password Reset" (check your spam folder) and if that doesn't work then feel free to Contact Us, for help and please check back on this post for any status updates and FAQs as we go through this process. FAQ:
      [Reserved Space]
      Firstly, I'd like to apologize on behalf of MormonHub for the frustration of the login system. There is a lot of cool things we could do with the login system, and having the logins synced up between our forum system and our front end system has been nice, but for multiple reasons (not just the current login issues), we have decided to move back to the earlier login system. While I would love to be able to migrate everyone's current passwords back, but the systems are just not compatible that way. So a large number of users will need to do a password reset. We realize that we forced everyone to do this on the move to the new system, and we sincerely apologize to everyone that will have to do it again. The Login System has now been swapped over. Give us a little bit of time to work out kinks in the system (will post updates here). If you are unable to login anymore, then please perform a password reset (check spam folder) and if that fails and we don't have any acknowledgement of problems on this post (No known problems at this time), then feel free to contact us (keeping in mind that there are a lot of you and very few of us).
lostinwater

Would You? Abraham/Isaac, Nephi/Laban, Saul/Amelikites

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i have thought a lot about this.  Would i take the life of another when my blood was 'cold'.

i guess my answer would be no - i hope it would be no at least.  i suppose a lot of that is based on the assumption that any prompting to do so even in the slightest resembles what i've experienced to this point in my life.  Even if it weren't and i was more sure than i have ever been about anything else, i still feel like i hope i would refuse.  

Not looking to argue the point - but i have seen inferences to things like that pop up in other threads, and want to see how other people deal with questions like this.  If your answer is yes, i would be interested to know what intensity or form of prompting it would require to justify it - if you feel that is relevant.

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Yeah, it's a tough one alright. How can you know what you'd do until you're there?

God (pre-mortal Christ) asking Abraham to sacrifice Isaac would have been near impossible for the average father I reckon.

 

A friend (former Stake Pres) is a film producer who makes wholesome movies (that make no money as no distributor is interested unless it's a film with lesbians in it these days) and he said he wanted scripts that were similar to that short film from years back about the railway switch operator who has to choose between the train and his child. In other words he wants to make stories about great personal sacrifice.

Still waiting for a quality film about Helmuth Hubener but not gonna hold my breath for this world doesn't want a Mormon hero.

Edited by Alex

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1 hour ago, lostinwater said:

i have thought a lot about this.  Would i take the life of another when my blood was 'cold'.

i guess my answer would be no - i hope it would be no at least.  i suppose a lot of that is based on the assumption that any prompting to do so even in the slightest resembles what i've experienced to this point in my life.  Even if it weren't and i was more sure than i have ever been about anything else, i still feel like i hope i would refuse.  

Not looking to argue the point - but i have seen inferences to things like that pop up in other threads, and want to see how other people deal with questions like this.  If your answer is yes, i would be interested to know what intensity or form of prompting it would require to justify it - if you feel that is relevant.

I don’t think the purpose of these stories were to teach a bunch of saints to be willing to kill upon an impression. Rather he wants us to be obedient and faithful in all hazards of life.

Whatever revelation we receive must be compared to currently revelation from prophets and apostles.

I recently learned that Nephi’s killing of Laban was very much in line with current Jewish law and practice.

as far as the many times God commanded us people to destroy other people in the OT, or the almost sacrifice of Isaac, I’m not sure. I have speculations! But I can’t confidently say for sure. But someone far more intelligent than I probably does :) 

Lastly, I have learned that death is not as big of a deal as some of us make it (including me!). Far too often have a met people who got angry at God because a family member died. Spiritual death is what we should fear and God has never commanded or forced anyone to be damned.

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I would do it, but I would have to be pretty darn sure (absolutely knowing, no guessing about it) that it was the Lord commanding it.  If there was any doubt that it was the Lord who commanded it, I would not.  If I was absolutely certain that it was the Lord who gave the command to me though, I believe I would carry through with it.

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On 11/26/2017 at 4:19 AM, JohnsonJones said:

I would do it, but I would have to be pretty darn sure (absolutely knowing, no guessing about it) that it was the Lord commanding it.  If there was any doubt that it was the Lord who commanded it, I would not.  If I was absolutely certain that it was the Lord who gave the command to me though, I believe I would carry through with it.

That's where the issue lies for me too - Is it REALLY from God?

What if President Monson with the Quorum of 12 tells all the Saints in Florida to leave all they have and move to Salt Lake?  Would I do it?  Yes.

What if President Monson with the Quorum of 12 tells me to drown my firstborn in the bathtub... my first reaction would be that President Monson and the 12 collectively lost their marbles.  In any case, if they ask this of me, I will fail this test.  Therefore, I am comforted by the assurance that God will not give me more than I can bear.

Edited by anatess2

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3 hours ago, anatess2 said:

That's where the issue lies for me too - Is it REALLY from God?

What if President Monson with the Quorum of 12 tells all the Saints in Florida to leave all they have and move to Salt Lake?  Would I do it?  Yes.

What if President Monson with the Quorum of 12 tells me to drown my firstborn in the bathtub... my first reaction would be that President Monson and the 12 collectively lost their marbles.  In any case, if they ask this of me, I will fail this test.  Therefore, I am comforted by the assurance that God will not give me more than I can bear.

Do you believe God commanded Nephi to kill Laban?

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God would never ask you to do more than you could handle and I do think there are many people like Nephi he would not ask them to do this.  However, I think we all have tests so regardless of what it is we will all be pushed to do something that is very difficult and requires us to exercise the utmost amount of faith.

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4 minutes ago, e-eye said:

However, I think we all have tests so regardless of what it is we will all be pushed to do something that is very difficult and requires us to exercise the utmost amount of faith.

That.  For some people, killing someone would not be a difficult test at all (disturbing as that may sound), and yet ask them to accept and magnify to the best of their ability the role of visiting or home teacher (just by way of example) and forget it - they'll take their handbasket and head south instead.

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For me to do it, it would have to be something like this:

An angel (not an apostle or a prophet) shows up and asks me to kill someone

We then start a negotiation session about the details of the task, eg, who, how, when, where, and how much flexibility there was in each of these. I wouldn't ask why as I don't think I would need to know that in order to do what was being asked. I would ask if there was anybody else who could do the task, and if there was any compelling reason why I was the person who had been asked to do it and if I had the option of delegating the job.

We come to an agreement as to the details of the task - what must be done, what must not be done, and the other stuff about who, when, where and how. 

I ask the angel to put the agreement in writing, with five original copies, one for me, one for the angel, one for the Prophet, one for the police, and one for my family

I carefully consider the agreement to make sure it accurately reflects what we have discussed and agreed to

Next, I carefully consider if I will follow the agreement, and if so, then I sign it.

Finally, I start doing my research and preparation, trying to find a way to do what had been asked in a way that is most likely to be successful, while avoiding being apprehended and arrested.

If it was anything less than this, I'd be inclined to hesitate and think it over pretty carefully.

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1 minute ago, askandanswer said:

For me to do it, it would have to be something like this:

An angel (not an apostle or a prophet) shows up and asks me to kill someone

We then start a negotiation session about the details of the task, eg, who, how, when, where, and how much flexibility there was in each of these. I wouldn't ask why as I don't think I would need to know that in order to do what was being asked. I would ask if there was anybody else who could do the task, and if there was any compelling reason why I was the person who had been asked to do it and if I had the option of delegating the job.

We come to an agreement as to the details of the task - what must be done, what must not be done, and the other stuff about who, when, where and how. 

I ask the angel to put the agreement in writing, with five original copies, one for me, one for the angel, one for the Prophet, one for the police, and one for my family

I carefully consider the agreement to make sure it accurately reflects what we have discussed and agreed to

Next, I carefully consider if I will follow the agreement, and if so, then I sign it.

Finally, I start doing my research and preparation, trying to find a way to do what had been asked in a way that is most likely to be successful, while avoiding being apprehended and arrested.

If it was anything less than this, I'd be inclined to hesitate and think it over pretty carefully.

While Nephi didn't go quite this far, I think it is relevant to remember that Nephi didn't just hop all over the idea - he too had to work through some questions before accepting the command.

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If I had the knowledge and relationship with the Lord and Heavenly Father as Abraham, yes I would follow the commandment with the same thoughts Abraham entertained, that God was a God of truth and that he would fulfill all his promises to me, by which without my son would not be possible (as in Abraham's context). A person denying God's direct commandment does not make them more moral or strong, it actually makes us weaker and less moral.

If I experienced what Nephi experienced, yes, I would not have any reserve to kill a "Laban." Laban sought to kill them twice. Nephi received three witnesses before slaying Laban. I really dislike it when I hear/read talks as if Nephi's experience was like this, "Nephi, kill Laban." Nephi's response, "YES! Off with his head." An awesome sword sound is made, and done. The morality and understanding of the purpose of this life is fully shown with Nephi's encounter. He received command and he hesitated. Upon viewing his hesitation God provided further witness. Upon that further witness it is easy to see from scripture that the Holy Ghost also provided further witness as Nephi's mind was enlightened regarding the love of God and God's commandments. He then went through something that probably bothered him the rest of his life, but as he declared, "[He] knew in whom he trusted." A person that wouldn't go through with it does not make them more moral than Nephi, or more good. If we experience what Nephi experienced and deny/reject God, we are actually less moral and weak.

I feel sorry for Saul in relation to the Amelikites, and more sorry for his good son Jonathan. If not for Jonathan, it appears from scripture that David would have met a sooner end, but Jonathan was used by the Lord to spare David's life. Jonathan was a righteous man, a good man, who loved God, and yet, his Father's decision to sacrifice rather than obey cost Jonathan his life. The death of Saul's sons allowed David to be pronounced King, otherwise one of Saul's sons would have become King of Israel. Here is a great article pertaining to Jonathan and David: https://www.lds.org/manual/primary-6-old-testament/lesson-29?lang=eng

This experience humbles me as the father of four boys, and I wonder how my earthly decisions affect them, and hope that I do not ever (but probably have) make a decision that brings their possible peace to come short. If I knew God commanded me, I would do what God commanded as a result of one simple principle -- charity - if we love God we keep his commandments no matter how difficult they may be (Abraham 3: 25, John 14:15 includes all commandments not the ones we want to ignore and pretend they were never given or that they don't apply to us)

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On 11/25/2017 at 10:50 PM, lostinwater said:

i have thought a lot about this.  Would i take the life of another when my blood was 'cold'.

i guess my answer would be no - i hope it would be no at least.  i suppose a lot of that is based on the assumption that any prompting to do so even in the slightest resembles what i've experienced to this point in my life.  Even if it weren't and i was more sure than i have ever been about anything else, i still feel like i hope i would refuse.  

Not looking to argue the point - but i have seen inferences to things like that pop up in other threads, and want to see how other people deal with questions like this.  If your answer is yes, i would be interested to know what intensity or form of prompting it would require to justify it - if you feel that is relevant.

My answer is no, I will not listen to a voice in my head that tells me to take the life of another, we have a word for those people they are murders.

I would fail the test, but I'm no Nephi, or Abraham the Lord would have to choose another

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16 minutes ago, omegaseamaster75 said:

My answer is no, I will not listen to a voice in my head that tells me to take the life of another,

I appreciate this! Again... the moral of this story is not that we should kill if God tells us to x)

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So, in Nephi's experience, we must remember that he had already had angelic visitations, witnessed by a group.

Quote

And it came to pass as they smote us with a rod, behold, an angel of the Lord came and stood before them, and he spake unto them, saying: Why do ye smite your younger brother with a rod? Know ye not that the Lord hath chosen him to be a ruler over you, and this because of your iniquities? Behold ye shall go up to Jerusalem again, and the Lord will deliver Laban into your hands.

It's not that Nephi was hearing voices telling him to kill.  It's that he and his whole family had received angelic visitation in addition to spiritual promptings, nice and consistent and rational, and involving multiple senses, and correctly predicting future events.  

 

Edited by NeuroTypical

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1 hour ago, NeuroTypical said:

So, in Nephi's experience, we must remember that he had already had angelic visitations, witnessed by a group.

It's not that Nephi was hearing voices telling him to kill.  It's that he and his whole family had received angelic visitation in addition to spiritual promptings, nice and consistent and rational, and involving multiple senses, and correctly predicting future events. 

As a caveat, often in the Church the Spirit of the Lord speaking to us is described as a voice we hear and feel in our mind and in our heart.

10 And it came to pass that I was constrained by the Spirit that I should kill Laban; but I said in my heart: Never at any time have I shed the blood of man. And I shrunk and would that I might not slay him.

11 And the Spirit said unto me again: Behold the Lord hath delivered him into thy hands. Yea, and I also knew that he had sought to take away mine own life; yea, and he would not hearken unto the commandments of the Lord; and he also had taken away our property.

I would say he did indeed feel and hear a voice in his heart and mind, which he then exclaimed in his heart, but I assume we are talking the same thing in reference to the last sentence, just clarifying the first.

EDIT: I see now your response was more in response to Omega's simplified statement regarding Nephi. :)

Edited by Anddenex

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1 hour ago, omegaseamaster75 said:

My answer is no, I will not listen to a voice in my head that tells me to take the life of another, we have a word for those people they are murders.

Amen. It's not just creepy, it's disturbing that in 2017 anyone could use "Oh God told me" as an excuse to commit what is an unforgivable crime. 

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1 hour ago, Fether said:

I appreciate this! Again... the moral of this story is not that we should kill if God tells us to x)

Abraham 3:25, might disagree with this thought. The whole experience with Saul (sacrifice rather than obey) appears to disagree with this thought. Nephi's experience and statement of within 1 Nephi 4: 14-18 appears to disagree with this also.

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1 minute ago, MormonGator said:

Amen. It's not just creepy, it's disturbing that in 2017 anyone could use "Oh God told me" as an excuse to commit what is an unforgivable crime. 

I am pretty sure Nephi didn't need to be forgiven of any crime, and it wasn't an excuse, "God told him so." You can tell Nephi when you meet him how disturbing and unforgivable his actions were since in 2017 we are so much more moral than he was. :confused:

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9 minutes ago, omegaseamaster75 said:

My answer is no, I will not listen to a voice in my head that tells me to take the life of another, we have a word for those people they are murders.

I would fail the test, but I'm no Nephi, or Abraham the Lord would have to choose another

i am glad i am not alone in this.  Maybe if God asked me to sacrifice my own life - but to take the life of another - i could never be sure.  The implications of being wrong....  Maybe others could know well enough - but i couldn't.  And anyways, i doubt God's hands are tied should i choose not to be the one to make the 'hit'. 

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5 minutes ago, lostinwater said:

i am glad i am not alone in this.  Maybe if God asked me to sacrifice my own life - but to take the life of another

You aren't alone at all. I'm at a complete loss for words over this thread. It scares me a little. If these people are serious than it scares me a lot. I sort of want to call the cops and warn them that there are still people out there that apparently believe it's okay to kill in the name of God. I'm just blown away by it. 

Maybe/hopefully I'm missing something and those who are much smarter than me can enlighten me.  

Edited by MormonGator

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24 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

You aren't alone at all. I'm at a complete loss for words over this thread. It scares me a little. If these people are serious than it scares me a lot. I sort of want to call the cops and warn them that there are still people out there that apparently believe it's okay to kill in the name of God. I'm just blown away by it. 

Maybe/hopefully I'm missing something and those who are much smarter than me can enlighten me.  

First of all, no one said on this thread, "it's okay to kill in the name of God." So nothing to be blown away by, or to call cops in reference to actual events that occurred in scripture.

Second, the OP mentioned three experiences: Abraham, Nephi, and Saul. Out of all these experiences the hardest one to muster is Saul's who was obedient except for killing the animals.

Third, there is a huge difference between someone saying "I kill in the name of God," which is often someone killing on their own -- not in the name of God, in comparison to what Abraham and Nephi experienced, and the Israelites experienced.

Fourth, no one here in 2017 is more moral than Nephi, Abraham, or the Israelites. Truth transcends time.

Fifth, being blown away by this conversation would be similar to being blown away by people who protect in self-defense, and yes brother, God could command you (general) when you see someone in danger to kill in order to protect the life about to be taken. Laban wasn't innocent.

Sixth, fortunately, we live in a time where the chances of God telling someone to "kill" (not murder) is so unlikely for any of us as our lives are no where near the same position. So again, the "I sort of want to call the cops and warn...." is amusing in reference to this thread. And I am glad in this day and age that this command, similar to Abraham and Nephi, are not likely to be given.

Seventh, how easily people forget Abraham 3: 25, John 14: 15, and John 15: 14-15. I desire to be the Lord's friend, and to meet him in proper countenance and glory, that can only be accomplished by honoring these verses which are encompassed in the two great commandments.

 

Edited by Anddenex

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