Would You? Abraham/Isaac, Nephi/Laban, Saul/Amelikites


lostinwater
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7 hours ago, Vort said:

The easy answer is, "Because God told him to do so." That begs the real question, of course: Why did God command Nephi to kill Laban instead of just disabling him?

To me, the answer is clear. Had Laban been left alive and bereft of the plates, knowing full well that Lehi's family had done it, he would have mounted a campaign to capture and execute the party. As it was, Laban was "murdered" (though we know it was not murder at all) by an unknown hand in the dark of night while he lay drunken. The record he was charged with was taken. Suspiciously, his right-hand man Zoram went missing at the same time. Conclusion: Zoram killed Laban and made off with the plates! Let's hunt down Zoram! Where to start? Obviously, at Zoram's abode, and then maybe at his ancestral home, etc. No thought would be given to a group who left the area of Jerusalem some months previously and were presently living as nomads a hundred miles or more to the south.

 

6 hours ago, zil said:

Why did they insist Zoram come with them?  Cuz if he didn't, he'd tell the Jews and they'd come a-hunting.  Same deal with Laban.  Had he lived, and found the brass plates missing, he'd've come a-huntin'.

ETA: The scriptures tell us why it was important for Zoram to come with. I think we can assume the same as reason for Laban's death (that and swift justice rather than the usual delayed kind).

This is what the Lord does when He doesn't want the pursuing bad guys to catch the fleeing good guys

(Book of Mormon | Mosiah 22:15 - 16)
15  And now it came to pass when the Lamanites had found that the people of Limhi had departed out of the land by night, that they sent an army into the wilderness to pursue them;
16  And after they had pursued them two days, they could no longer follow their tracks; therefore they were lost in the wilderness.

or

(Book of Mormon | Ether 9:33)
33  And it came to pass that the Lord did cause the serpents that they should pursue them no more, but that they should hedge up the way that the people could not pass, that whoso should attempt to pass might fall by the poisonous serpents.
 

or

(Old Testament | Exodus 14:19 - 20)
9 ¶ And the angel of God, which went before the camp of Israel, removed and went behind them; and the pillar of the cloud went from before their face, and stood behind them:
20  And it came between the camp of the Egyptians and the camp of Israel; and it was a cloud and darkness to them, but it gave light by night to these: so that the one came not near the other all the night.
 

 None of which requires one person to kill another

Given the leadership role that God had in mind for Nephi,  I suspect that God wanted to prove Nephi to see if he would do all things whatsoever the Lord shall command him in the same way that He wanted to prove that other father of nations, Abraham.

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2 minutes ago, Vort said:

Obviously, in the case of Nephi, the Lord told Nephi to kill Laban.

Yes, I agree, but my earlier question was wondering why the order was to kill and not to temporarily disable. You and @zil suggested that the reason why the order was to kill Laban was so that Laban would then be unable to arrange for Lehi and his family to be pursued and brought back to Jerusalem. I'm suggesting that the Lord has at His disposal a myriad of means by which He could have prevented that from happening so to me, the idea that Nephi was ordered to kill Laban in order to prevent pursuit seems to lack merit. 

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3 minutes ago, askandanswer said:

Yes, I agree, but my earlier question was wondering why the order was to kill and not to temporarily disable. You and @zil suggested that the reason why the order was to kill Laban was so that Laban would then be unable to arrange for Lehi and his family to be pursued and brought back to Jerusalem. I'm suggesting that the Lord has at His disposal a myriad of means by which He could have prevented that from happening so to me, the idea that Nephi was ordered to kill Laban in order to prevent pursuit seems to lack merit. 

In that case, it's an impossible question even to consider. Why is the plan of salvation as it is? Why don't we have seven tentacles instead of four limbs? Why is the speed of light 299792458 m/s? The mind of God is at it is. If we know the will of God, that's the best we can do. In cases such as this, asking "why" is useless.

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5 minutes ago, Vort said:

It's not murder.

Thanks.  i guess depending on the circumstance, could be true.  But i'd never kill someone else based on a prompting in the way that Nephi supposedly did Laban.  i'd call that murder - but that is just my opinion, and that opinion is worth less than you paid for it  :) .

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Just now, lostinwater said:

Thanks.  i guess depending on the circumstance, could be true.  But i'd never kill someone else based on a prompting in the way that Nephi supposedly did Laban.  i'd call that murder - but that is just my opinion, and that opinion is worth less than you paid for it  :) .

Murder is the intentional and wrongful taking of a human life. If God tells you to do it, it's not wrongful. Ergo, not murder.

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Guest MormonGator
10 minutes ago, lostinwater said:

Thanks.  i guess depending on the circumstance, could be true.  But i'd never kill someone else based on a prompting in the way that Nephi supposedly did Laban.  i'd call that murder - but that is just my opinion, and that opinion is worth less than you paid for it  :) .

Don't worry-the legal systems of most civilized countries view it the same way you and I do. 

Edited by MormonGator
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4 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Don't worry-the legal systems of most civilized countries view it the same we do. 

Not historically, and not even now. Women have been justified in "murdering" their sleeping husbands or boyfriends because of abuse. Laban's robbery and attempted murder of Lehi's sons would almost certainly have justified Nephi in killing Laban -- had Nephi been able to find an impartial judge of the law of Moses in corrupt early fifth-century BC Jerusalem.

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Just now, Vort said:

Not historically, and not even now. 

Wrong. We're talking about murdering someone because you (generic, but I don't know your past @Vort) said God told you to. Not because of abuse or anything "justifiable". 

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Just now, MormonGator said:

Wrong. We're talking about murdering someone because you (generic, but I don't know your past @Vort) said God told you to. Not because of abuse or anything "justifiable". 

Did Laban or did Laban not rob Lehi's sons and attempt to kill them?

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1 minute ago, Vort said:

Exactly. Nephi was fully justified in killing Laban in self-defense, had he been able to find a just judge of the law of Israel.

Try that excuse 2017 (Actually, don't try it please) -which is the point of the thread, not what Nephi did thousands of years ago. 

Edited by MormonGator
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We have four limbs because we are made in the image of God, and that is how many limbs He has. The speed of light is a natural law of the universe and not part of God's creation, and possibly something to which even God is subject. As to why the plan of salvation is as it is, well that is a question I sometimes think about. I'm sure it has an answer. I suspect that two parts of that answer are first, that there are certain natural laws which any plan of any god or God is subject to, so such laws then define the parameters within which any plan must be contained. I suspect that an example of these natural laws are the laws that govern how an intelligence can grow and progress from an intelligence to a god. That is one part of the answer to why the plan of salvation is what it is. The second part of the answer is that within the broad framework of natural laws to which even God is subject, God has designed a plan based on His own personal preferences. 

The reason why we should ask why is because when it is asked in the right way, and for the right purposes, it can lead to a greater understanding of God and His ways. Having that greater understanding should then lead to an increase in faith and a greater willingness to do His will. I think an informed understanding is better than uninformed faith, and the more informed one's faith is, I think the more likely it is that that faith will grow and that people will then do more to live according to that faith. maintain that if enough people were engaged in an analysis of God's words and actions, a better understanding of God would emerge from that process. I think that in many instances, its possible to come to a more informed understanding of why God does what He does. We know His motives, we know His purpose, we have some knowledge of His methods, we have an (admittedly woefully incomplete and occasionally erroneous) record of His doings covering different groups of people over thousands of years, we have the teachings of modern day prophets, we are surrounded on this earth by patterns and examples, we have some idea of how the idea parent feels about and behaves towards their children, we have the light of Christ and the promise of revelation and inspiration. God wants to be known by His children and I believe that He will help His faithful and sincere children accomplish their righteous purposes. To know God is not only a righteous purpose, it is something that Joseph Smith told us is essential for our salvation. Its' a large task, but I think, doable, and perhaps even desirable. It just takes a willingness, time, organisation, and many people. 

A man's vision should exceed his grasp. 

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Just now, MormonGator said:

Try that excuse 2017 (Actually, don't try it please) -which is the point of the thread, not what Nephi did thousands of years ago. 

Why would I try to excuse in 2017 something that happened 2600 years ago? That would be as foolish as condemning something that happened 2600 years ago based on present ideas.

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1 minute ago, askandanswer said:

We have four limbs because we are made in the image of God, and that is how many limbs He has.

Begs the question. Why does God have four limbs and not seven tentacles?

1 minute ago, askandanswer said:

The speed of light is a natural law of the universe and not part of God's creation, and possibly something to which even God is subject.

  1. You don't know this.
  2. You didn't answer the question. "It's natural" is not an answer.

Meaningful questions can be asked only when there exists an external framework for considering the question. If you do not understand the external framework, you cannot intelligently consider the question, and have to dabble in metaphysics even to be able to ask any questions -- which are liable to be meaningless, given that your metaphysics is almost certainly wrong. So asking "why God commanded Nephi to kill Laban" is a meaningless construct outside the answers you have already been provided.

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12 minutes ago, Vort said:

Why would I try to excuse in 2017 something that happened 2600 years ago? That would be as foolish as condemning something that happened 2600 years ago based on present ideas.

Because like I said-different time, different era. 

Look, if you want to look for excuses to kill or murder people (which it is, regardless of if you think otherwise. Semantics) that's on your conscience. If you (again, not you in particular) think that God would tell you to kill someone in 2017 I'm virtually guaranteeing you that the church would excommunicate very quickly. Faster than your trial, conviction for murder and starting your life sentence in the Idaho state prison would ever be. 

Edited by MormonGator
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5 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

if you want to look for excuses to kill or murder people (which it is, regardless of if you think otherwise. Semantics)

No, semantics are on my side here. Murder is the intentional and unjustified taking of human life. If God commanded it, it isn't murder, no matter what. And in 6th-century BC pre-exile Jerusalem under the law of Moses, killing the powerful man who robbed you blind and attempted to kill you would have been justifiable homicide.

Semantics.

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3 hours ago, lostinwater said:

Thanks.  i have wondered similar things. 

i'm pretty confident that in the Laban/Nephi situation, i'd have assumed a very different source for that prompting.  

But i have a harder time explaining the genocide in the bible, or recommending how a person should act while fighting in a war and you and 10 of your fellows capturing a single wounded enemy soldier and having to decide whether you kill him or risk having him tell his army about your plans/position.  i guess every situation is different. 

But just the idea of murdering someone else (or several people) based on a prompting and justified by a greater-good religious argument not shared by broader society - i'd be real leery about getting behind that.  i mean, how many tortured souls are there in our prison system who've thought exactly the same thing?  i'd rather explain to God why i didn't than trying to explain my misguided faith to my victim.

i honestly don't know if other people actually get prompting so strong that make them not automatically discard it as a possibility.  If other people do, it explains why they stayed in the church and i've largely left.  That would be one whale of a prompting.

I can’t really say what I would do in Nephi’s situation. I do know I am a spiritual shrimp compared to the spiritual giant Nephi was.

Even when I do feel the Spirit, I have little to no idea how to follow it’s guidance or use it for personal decision making. I can’t recall one memorable time in my life I prayed to God asking him for an answer where I felt the Spirit reveal it to me. If the Spirit told me to go left, there is a good chance I would take a right. Not because I want to be disobedient to the promptings of the Spirit, but because I’m still a beginner with understanding how to follow the Spirit’s guidance.

Would God give someone like me in my current spiritual status the test of following His command to kill someone? I don’t think so. For one, I’m not ready and willing right now to do anything the Lord commanded of me. And two, I’ve built too many communication barriers between me and the Lord for me to clearly receive such a command. Nephi did not have the issues I have. Nephi was a great man, he was a righteous man. He was ready and willing to follow the Lord, even as hard as it was for him to internalize such a command.

Even though I haven’t learned how to use the Spirit for personal decision making, I have been able to feel it when it testifies to me of things which are true. I’ve felt the Spirit so strongly in the Mormon church (Priesthood blessings, listening to someone speak in Fast & Tesitmony Meeting, Church leadership), giving me knowledge that is it true, that I could never in good conscience accept any other belief system.

As for relying on the Spirit to help guide me, I’m grateful for examples like Nephi and Abraham.  Without examples like these, who do we have to look up to in order to improve ourselves? 

Edited by clbent04
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On 11/26/2017 at 12:46 AM, Alex said:

Yeah, it's a tough one alright. How can you know what you'd do until you're there?

God (pre-mortal Christ) asking Abraham to sacrifice Isaac would have been near impossible for the average father I reckon.

 

A friend (former Stake Pres) is a film producer who makes wholesome movies (that make no money as no distributor is interested unless it's a film with lesbians in it these days) and he said he wanted scripts that were similar to that short film from years back about the railway switch operator who has to choose between the train and his child. In other words he wants to make stories about great personal sacrifice.

Still waiting for a quality film about Helmuth Hubener but not gonna hold my breath for this world doesn't want a Mormon hero.

I would love to see a movie about Hubener.  I've read a book about him and it was really interesting.

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15 hours ago, Vort said:

No, semantics are on my side here. Murder is the intentional and unjustified taking of human life. If God commanded it, it isn't murder, no matter what. And in 6th-century BC pre-exile Jerusalem under the law of Moses, killing the powerful man who robbed you blind and attempted to kill you would have been justifiable homicide.

Semantics.

@Vort laying it down once more. Nicely said.

giphy.gif

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