Would You? Abraham/Isaac, Nephi/Laban, Saul/Amelikites


lostinwater
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Guest MormonGator
6 minutes ago, mordorbund said:

Don't we already do this as a society? If a person is found to be killed by another person, we ask followup questions of the person who did the killing to see if lines up with our sensibilities.

We do ask follow up questions, and if your answer is "Because God told me to" you are going to have a problem, even if it was in "self defense" and someone was breaking into your home at 3AM." 

I'm not sure that people fully comprehend the gravity of this. Killing people, even in self defense-isn't a fun thing to do. You'll still be arrested (with good cause) and then have to live with a huge burden. And in 2017, if you get it in your head that God said "Go kill someone" you will thankfully be spending the rest of your life in an 8 x 10 cell. 

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24 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

We do ask follow up questions, and if your answer is "Because God told me to" you are going to have a problem, even if it was in "self defense" and someone was breaking into your home at 3AM." 

I'm not sure that people fully comprehend the gravity of this. Killing people, even in self defense-isn't a fun thing to do. You'll still be arrested (with good cause) and then have to live with a huge burden. And in 2017, if you get it in your head that God said "Go kill someone" you will thankfully be spending the rest of your life in an 8 x 10 cell. 

People fully comprehend the gravity of this. I am not sure others fully comprehend the gravity of disobedience from an eternal perspective.

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Guest MormonGator
1 minute ago, Anddenex said:

People fully comprehend the gravity of this. I am not sure others fully comprehend the gravity disobedience from an eternal perspective.

I'll send you a couple cartons of cigarettes when you are doing 40-life in the Texas state prison. (I don't know where you live, pulling states out of the sky). You can trade them for protection. 

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8 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

I'll send you a couple cartons of cigarettes when you are doing 40-life in the Texas state prison. (I don't know where you live, pulling states out of the sky). You can trade them for protection. 

I see you missed this point, so I will specify it again, "Sixth, fortunately, we live in a time where the chances of God telling someone to "kill" (not murder) is so unlikely for any of us as our lives are no where near the same position. So again, the "I sort of want to call the cops and warn...." is amusing in reference to this thread. And I am glad in this day and age that this command, similar to Abraham and Nephi, are not likely to be given."

As self-defense isn't anything to worry about jail time for any long period of time, your cigarettes will be sent to the wrong place should I ever find myself in the same position my EQP found himself in. Wait! He didn't receive any jail time, and yes, he has to live with his decision and he is fine with living with the decision he made knowing it protected his wife and children.

"States out of the sky" is how you respond to "eternal perspective"? :confused:

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56 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

We do ask follow up questions, and if your answer is "Because God told me to" you are going to have a problem, even if it was in "self defense" and someone was breaking into your home at 3AM." 

I'm not sure that people fully comprehend the gravity of this. Killing people, even in self defense-isn't a fun thing to do. You'll still be arrested (with good cause) and then have to live with a huge burden. And in 2017, if you get it in your head that God said "Go kill someone" you will thankfully be spending the rest of your life in an 8 x 10 cell. 

That's an interesting question I suppose.

In Nephi's case, that is a story that has troubled MANY people.  Individuals are NOT alone for having it trouble them, some to the point that they have problems even accepting the church or the Book of Mormon.

Let's look at the actual story though.  Nephi sought to buy the Brass plates and brought everything his family owned in order to buy it.  Laban stole that property and then sought to kill Nephi.  He and his guards/soldiers were actively trying to kill Nephi at the time. 

To put it in perspective, it would be if you brought me everything you owned.  Instead of selling you something or making a trade for it, I illegally seized it and then to hide up my crime I decided I would kill you on sight, or anyone from my employ or gang would kill you on sight without the approval or consent of the US laws. 

In this light, it could be considered debatable on whether if you killed me, because me and my entire organization was trying to kill you, was legal in self defense, or whether it was wrong.  I think it's actually a pretty good debate one could have about the morality of it, even if the Lord was not involved. 

In the event of Saul, it's more questionable if we take the Lord out of the picture.  Today, I think society would condemn his actions as genocide.  However, the fact is that he was commanded of the Lord to do so.  Today we would probably condemn the ruler of warcrimes, but unless the world actually brought him in, as long as he remained solvent, he could not be charged (much like Stalin could be recognized for great evil today, but we never did anything to him...but then he was not commanded to do so).  The big thing in this is to know that it was commanded of the Lord, which is the big difference there.  In this instance however, it would probably not be us, the little people, receiving the order.  It would be more like the prophet delivering this type of commandment to us and it would be more a question of whether we chose to follow that command or not.

As we see from the Story of King Saul, he chose not to follow it completely.  He was not struck dead instantly, or any other such thing.  The ramifications of what he chose came later, but it was not an instant type of punishment.

In Abraham's case, this may be the most problematic for people in regards to how he received and fulfilled the commandment.  If he had actually been allowed to go through with it, it probably would be heavily problematic for people to this day.  The only thing that saves the story is that the Lord stops him from doing it at the last minute.

The story can be seen as a parable though, and if it bothers you to think about what would have happened if Abraham had actually sacrificed his son, there is another story that actually tells of a father who did sacrifice his son in such a manner.  Our Father let his son, the Savior, die for us.  Instead of sending an angel down to stop it like he did with Abraham, he allowed his son to be sacrificed for us.  Thus we are saved both from spiritual death and physical death, but only because our Father allowed his only begotten son to be sacrificed in that manner.

It is this that was symbolized by Abrahams story, and if that impacts us, to think of the great impact that the real story of Jesus Christ has upon us and our lives and eternities.

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1 hour ago, mordorbund said:

Don't we already do this as a society? If a person is found to be killed by another person, we ask followup questions of the person who did the killing to see if lines up with our sensibilities.

Oh he was trying to rape you? then killing is fine

Oh he was knocking on your door at 3AM when you were trying to sleep? you're a monster

Oh she was trying to kill you first? then killing is fine

Oh she was going to reveal your secret crush? monster

 

Thanks.  i guess i want to emphasize the 'legitimately commanded by God' part of that comment.  But, point is well taken.  We do ask lots of questions after a crime like - as well we should.

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2 hours ago, zil said:

Because you weren't there, you don't know what the lives of those children would have been like, and you have lost track of both the eternal nature of mankind and the promises made regarding children who die before the age of accountability.  What's more, I'm not sure we can be completely confident that we have full and accurate records of who said and did what back then.  Let God and the people who were there worry about the right and wrong of it.  You worry about what lesson you might learn from it - like not to ripen in iniquity.... :o

Thanks.  i hear what you are saying.  George MacDonald said what i want to say better than i could ever say it.  perhaps this is really what you are recommending to me - and i'm just too stupid to see it :) .  This, in fact, is a distinct possibility.

 

"Neither let thy cowardly conscience receive any word as light because another call it light, while it looks to thee dark.  Say either the thing is not what it seems, or God never said or did it.  But of all evils, to misinterpret what God does, and then say the thing, as interpreted, must be right because God does it, is of the devil.  Do not try to believe anything that affects thee as darkness.  Even if thou mistake and refuse something true thereby, thou wilt do less wrong to Christ by such a refusal than thou wouldst by accepting as His what thou canst see only as darkness."

- George MacDonald

Edited by lostinwater
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Guest MormonGator
1 hour ago, Anddenex said:

I see you missed this point, so I will specify it again, "Sixth, fortunately, we live in a time where the chances of God telling someone to "kill" (not murder) is so unlikely for any of us as our lives are no where near the same position. So again, the "I sort of want to call the cops and warn...." is amusing in reference to this thread. And I am glad in this day and age that this command, similar to Abraham and Nephi, are not likely to be given."

As self-defense isn't anything to worry about jail time for any long period of time, your cigarettes will be sent to the wrong place should I ever find myself in the same position my EQP found himself in. Wait! He didn't receive any jail time, and yes, he has to live with his decision and he is fine with living with the decision he made knowing it protected his wife and children.

"States out of the sky" is how you respond to "eternal perspective"? :confused:

So Marlboro or Camels?

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16 minutes ago, lostinwater said:

"Neither let thy cowardly conscience receive any word as light because another call it light, while it looks to thee dark.  Say either the thing is not what it seems, or God never said or did it.  But of all evils, to misinterpret what God does, and then say the thing, as interpreted, must be right because God does it, is of the devil.  Do not try to believe anything that affects thee as darkness.  Even if thou mistake and refuse something true thereby, thou wilt do less wrong to Christ by such a refusal than thou wouldst by accepting as His what thou canst see only as darkness."

- George MacDonald

This is a good quote; although there is a fallacy within it that a person must be cautious of, "Do not try to believe anything that affects thee as darkness."

Anytime we reject truth (I agree with Mr. MacDonald, not the interpretation of truth) we are indeed hurting ourselves and we are not doing Christ any less wrong by rejecting truth. If we reject truth, because we see it as darkness, we are doing wrong (saying it is less would be false).

Let me give another example from scripture. At one time God had all the firstborn children (even the House of Israel children who did not head the warning) would die. The destroying angel would come, and did come. If a person views this as "darkness" it doesn't change that this is light -- truth. So by rejecting truth, we are actually rejecting Christ who is the "the way, the truth, and the life."

I do like the concept though, "to misinterpret what God does," is very important and something we all should seek to refrain from.

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Guest MormonGator
3 minutes ago, Anddenex said:

Any cigars, expensive ones?

My friend came back from Cuba just yesterday actually. I asked her to pick some up for me. I'm sure I can spare you a few. You are welcome. 

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Guest MormonGator
1 minute ago, Anddenex said:

Then my protection will be set temporally and spiritually.

A simple thank you would be sufficient, but I can do that for you as well. Let me make a few phone calls. 

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2 hours ago, MormonGator said:

We do ask follow up questions, and if your answer is "Because God told me to" you are going to have a problem, even if it was in "self defense" and someone was breaking into your home at 3AM." 

That's because God doesn't usually testify in a courtroom. If He did, jurors might consider things differently (or that might not, to our shame).

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On 11/28/2017 at 11:12 AM, Rob Osborn said:

God kills people, or allows them to be killed all the time. Its about justification. Do you think it was wrong for Nephi to kill Laban?

God kills people? who does he kill? 

I'll buy that he allows killing to happen..

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Well, and there's 3rd Nephi with all those disasters at the time of the crucifixion.  Of course, I would be willing to accept the idea there that God allowed the Earth to do all that, but the voice of the Lord, as recorded there, claims responsibility for all that destruction, so...

Nonetheless, I agree, most of the time, the Lord allows people to be killed rather than taking action which leads directly to the deaths of humans.  (Or so I believe.)

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1 hour ago, omegaseamaster75 said:

God kills people? who does he kill? 

I'll buy that he allows killing to happen..

The Egyptian's firstborn (I am sure you are aware of this story in the Bible), as well as the first born of the House of Israel who did not head the counsel from Moses.

The Lamanite that tried to kill Ammon when he fell due to the Spirit. No man lifted his sword to kill this man, then if he died, who stopped his heart and ability to breath?

Rob already mentioned the flood that God caused that according to record killed all humans except Noah and his sons.

Ark of the Covenant episode, "David and the people later brought the ark to Jerusalem in an ox cart, driven by Uzzah and Ahio. ‘And when they came to Nachon’s threshingfloor, Uzzah put forth his hand to the ark of God, and took hold of it; for the oxen shook it. And the anger of the Lord was kindled against Uzzah; and God smote him there for his error, and there he died by the ark of God’ (2 Samuel 6:6–7; see vv. 1–11)." (Source) -- Pretty clear words here, "And the anger of the Lord was kindled against Uzzah; and God smote him there for his error."

If Ballam continued his false path of disobedience to God, an angel would have smote him as the angel would have been commanded by God. And if experience and story is correct regarding Joseph and polygamy, it appears the Lord would have brought him to an early demise if he disobeyed a direct command from God.

I am wondering if you have picked up your Bible lately - ;)

If you don't buy these options, I am very curious regarding how this would be seen otherwise then God actually bringing one of his children back to him sooner.

EDIT: One more example:

Judah has three sons by a Canaanite woman—Er and Onan are slain by the Lord—Tamar, disguised as a harlot, bears twins by Judah. The actual verse of scripture says, "And Er, Judah’s firstborn, was wicked in the sight of the Lord; and the Lord slew him." And now with Onan, "

And Onan knew that the seed should not be his; and it came to pass, when he went in unto his brother’s wife, that he spilled it on the ground, lest that he should give seed to his brother.

10 And the thing which he did displeased the Lord: wherefore he slew him also."

Edited by Anddenex
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1 hour ago, omegaseamaster75 said:

God kills people? who does he kill? 

Another way of looking at it is that God perhaps facilitates the transfer of a soul from mortality to immortality. Death is the usual way by which this is done. It may be presumptive to think that the death of an individual is the desired outcome when it might really only be the transfer of that soul to the spirit world that God is really trying to achieve. Having a more eternal perspective than we do, I don't think that God views death in the same way that we do. He did, after all, design and implement a plan, the whole success of which depended upon the death of His Son. 

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1 hour ago, Anddenex said:

Ark of the Covenant episode, "David and the people later brought the ark to Jerusalem in an ox cart, driven by Uzzah and Ahio. ‘And when they came to Nachon’s threshingfloor, Uzzah put forth his hand to the ark of God, and took hold of it; for the oxen shook it. And the anger of the Lord was kindled against Uzzah; and God smote him there for his error, and there he died by the ark of God’ (2 Samuel 6:6–7; see vv. 1–11)." (Source) -- Pretty clear words here, "And the anger of the Lord was kindled against Uzzah; and God smote him there for his error."

 

Well, that's case and point for why i really struggle reading the Old Testament - but you are right, it's there.

As i read that, i wonder if the ox was stung by a bee, bolted, tipped the ark over, and it crushed Uzzah - and the people were so superstitious that they believed it was God.  

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27 minutes ago, lostinwater said:

Well, that's case and point for why i really struggle reading the Old Testament - but you are right, it's there.

As i read that, i wonder if the ox was stung by a bee, bolted, tipped the ark over, and it crushed Uzzah - and the people were so superstitious that they believed it was God.  

You are not alone in your struggle of reading the Old Testament. Ms Anddenex isn't fond of it either, and their are difficult things to understand.

As we weren't there, we can only accept what is written. The story is that Uzzah saw that the Ark was unsteady and was trying to steady it -- actually do a good thing. But God provided a commandment, and a consequence, and Uzzah met the consequence. The scripture explain that Uzzah "took hold of the Ark," which is very different than it falling on top of him. Now could this be the case, possibly, although the scriptures appear to highlight that Uzzah took hold of it. So, my minds eyes would be similar to me watching my sons carry something and as I see they stumble I quickly take hold of the item to help steady it so it doesn't fall.

Now, what if Uzzah was trying to take hold and it fell upon him? This still would fulfill the Lord's word of those not authorized to touch would die.

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41 minutes ago, lostinwater said:

Well, that's case and point for why i really struggle reading the Old Testament - but you are right, it's there.

As i read that, i wonder if the ox was stung by a bee, bolted, tipped the ark over, and it crushed Uzzah - and the people were so superstitious that they believed it was God.  

I love the Old Testament more than any of the other standard works. Yes, there are weird customs all through it but I find the constant fails within Israel reinforce the message- It's either we learn from the mistakes of others or we learn from our own mistakes, and I prefer the former.

I have a thick comic bible from a born again church which I mark and hope to one day licence and publish as an unofficial JST LDS comic bible- it's a long term, down the track ambition.

Oh, and on the subject of God dealing out death directly, let's not forget those two in the New Testament- Ananias and Sapphira. Hmm, and in this dispensation, let's not forget the fate of the persecutors of Joseph Smith.

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17 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

God caused the great flood in Noahs time to kill the wicked.

 

Once again, I intend to complicate things.  I will state unequivocally that G-d does not bring about death – ever.  We may interpret certain principles like “agency” and think to understand that G-d allows death but it is 100% a false teaching.  I am quite sure that Satan is behind any thought that in any way insinuates that G-d is the cause of any death.

The cause of death is sin.  There is no other cause - and there is no sin or evil in G-d or his presents.  There is nothing else that can bring about or cause death.  The truth is that we mortals survive from one second to the next by the grace of G-d that postpones our death and allows us temporary breath.  Should G-d withdraw his undeserved protection of us - we perish in death that very moment.  Not because he has withdrawn but because of our agency to choose to experience a fallen and sinful state.  There is only one innocent death – but even the death of Christ was caused by sin (mortal man’s sins).

G-d is the giver of life – there is no other source.  I had a short discussion on another thread about inalienable rights – life is not a right it is a gift.  Never-the-less, all will die.  When we chose to pursue knowledge of good and evil – death and the experience of death is the knowledge of evil.  Birth and the atonement and resurrection to life is the knowledge of good.  

As long as we define life and death by mortality we will never understand justice and we will never comprehend an eternal G-d.

 

The Traveler

Edited by Traveler
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13 hours ago, Alex said:

I love the Old Testament more than any of the other standard works. Yes, there are weird customs all through it but I find the constant fails within Israel reinforce the message- It's either we learn from the mistakes of others or we learn from our own mistakes, and I prefer the former.

I have a thick comic bible from a born again church which I mark and hope to one day licence and publish as an unofficial JST LDS comic bible- it's a long term, down the track ambition.

Oh, and on the subject of God dealing out death directly, let's not forget those two in the New Testament- Ananias and Sapphira. Hmm, and in this dispensation, let's not forget the fate of the persecutors of Joseph Smith.

 

Again, to over complicate things - It is my impression that the Old Testament is the most misunderstood of all scripture.  I do not believe that the Old Testament is a historically accurate record of Israel but rather a type and shadow of the covenants established in the pre-existence, the war in heaven – the fall and mortal experience of man and the restoration of blessings (eternal life).  In short it is not a historical account of Israel but rather a type and shadow of the plan of salvation.

Likewise, the Book of Mormon is not a historical document of the Nephits and Laminites but rather a type and shadow of the fullness of the gospel of Christ.

 

The Traveler

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