Heavenly Mother & Mother Mary

[anatess2]

9 minutes ago, Blossom76 said:

Is the Polygamy in the celestial kingdom?

If your question is... does having more than one wife still qualify you for celestial glory?  The answer is yes.

In Christian teaching, marriages end in death, therefore, when a widower marries another woman, he is still only married to one woman.  In LDS teaching, sealed marriages do not end in death, therefore, when a widower marries (sealed to) another woman, he is married to both his deceased wife and his new wife.

Edited November 28, 2017 by anatess2

[zil]

9 minutes ago, Blossom76 said:

I'm going to have to look at Brigham Young and what he taught

You'll need to set aside about a decade for this. (Seriously, there's a lot.  But not all of it should be assumed to be doctrine, and remember that the current prophet is the one who should take precedence.  Also, remember, he spoke to people in the culture of the 1800s.  You're a long way from that.  Don't judge what he said by present-day sensibilities.)

[estradling75]

18 minutes ago, Blossom76 said:

Is there Polygamy in the celestial kingdom? And if so is it a requirement for the highest degree of glory?

Polygamy is a historical reality of the LDS church.  While not currently practiced (barring Anatess example because most people do not think of that when they think of Polygamy) lots of members Struggle with the idea that in could be in their future.  But then no one should expect to gain all that God has offered without having to struggle to get there.

 

 

[Jane_Doe]

Hi @Blossom76, you hit on a lot of different points in your post, so I'm going to break you post down. 

1 hour ago, Blossom76 said:

I had no idea this was taught by a Prophet, it makes me really uneasy, I'm going to have to look at Brigham Young and what he taught, I dont know much about church history except the basic teachings the church gives on Joseph Smith.

(This is a big point when studying LDS doctrine, so I'm going to make it in big letters)

LDS doctrine is NOT defined by what Brigham Young said.  Doctrine is defined scripture and the unified voice of the Prophet (when acting as a Prophet) and Apostles

Same with Joseph Smith and any other LDS leader.  You can look up quotes from any leader or history, but that is different than studying doctrine. 

1 hour ago, Blossom76 said:

Is there Polygamy in the celestial kingdom? 

(Jane logic, not official doctrine) I'm pretty sure the Lord is not going to make Jacob choose from his four wives and just tell the other three "sucks to be you!"

1 hour ago, Blossom76 said:

And if so is it a requirement for the highest degree of glory?

There is no doctrinal statement which says so.  There are plenty of doctrinal statements that say God knows the desires of our hearts, that it is a place of upmost joy, and God will force no man into anything.  So no one is going to be forced into any relationship and everyone is going to be extremely happy.

Edited November 28, 2017 by Jane_Doe

[Vort]

1 hour ago, Blossom76 said:

Is there Polygamy in the celestial kingdom?

The answer to this question is slightly speculative, but seems to me to be on pretty solid ground. Polygamy was commanded of ancient prophets as well as of Joseph Smith. In several cases, Joseph was specifically told that some woman sealed to him but married (for time) to another would be his wife in the eternities, though not in this life. All of this indicates most strongly that, at least for some people, plural marriage (aka polygamy) will be an eternal reality. I don't know how to understand our own history and the teachings of the scriptures except to allow that plural marriage is indeed an eternal principle.

1 hour ago, Blossom76 said:

And if so is it a requirement for the highest degree of glory?

Ah, a very different -- and very good -- question. Again, the answer is slightly speculative but seems pretty solid. Today, we are not commanded to live plural marriage; quite the opposite, in fact. So faithful Latter-day Saints today are typically sealed only to one spouse when they die, yet we know that the promises of eternal exaltation are ours if we prove faithful. That indicates most strongly that we are not required to live plural marriage to gain exaltation. Now, you can think up reasons why this might not actually be the case; but I think it's pretty clear that we are not required to live plural marriage to be exalted.

The real bottom line here is that we must do all the Father commands of us in order to receive all that he wishes to give us. We may also be absolutely sure that whatever the Father requires of us, no matter how hard or distasteful or unbearable it may seem to us now in our fallible mortal state, will always redound to our good. In the end, we will always be glad we obeyed the Father. I believe that there are no exceptions to this rule.

[Vort]

1 hour ago, zil said:

You'll need to set aside about a decade for this. (Seriously, there's a lot.  But not all of it should be assumed to be doctrine, and remember that the current prophet is the one who should take precedence.  Also, remember, he spoke to people in the culture of the 1800s.  You're a long way from that.  Don't judge what he said by present-day sensibilities.)

Brigham Young was simply awesome. I don't know that there is a prophet whose sermons I enjoy more than his. Sure he was the product of his time, but he was also a razor-sharp intelligence, an immensely able leader, and a prophet of God. Anyone who puts aside his/her preconceptions and reads Brother Brigham's preachings in the Spirit he offered them in will come away impressed and entertained.

[Blossom76]

2 hours ago, anatess2 said:

If your question is... does having more than one wife still qualify you for celestial glory?  The answer is yes.

In Christian teaching, marriages end in death, therefore, when a widower marries another woman, he is still only married to one woman.  In LDS teaching, sealed marriages do not end in death, therefore, when a widower marries (sealed to) another woman, he is married to both his deceased wife and his new wife.

This is the part I am struggling to understand and deal with.  So this man's wives would still both be sealed to him in the celestial kingdom and therefore be stuck living polygamy for all eternity, and it wasn't even their choice, well maybe it was the second's woman's choice because she would know what she's getting into but the first wife would not be expecting this and certainly didn't choose it, and now would have to spend eternity unhappy or choose a lower level of glory.  It's a hard call.

[Jane_Doe]

3 minutes ago, Blossom76 said:

This is the part I am struggling to understand and deal with.  So this man's wives would still both be sealed to him in the celestial kingdom and therefore be stuck living polygamy for all eternity, and it wasn't even their choice, well maybe it was the second's woman's choice because she would know what she's getting into but the first wife would not be expecting this and certainly didn't choose it, and now would have to spend eternity unhappy or choose a lower level of glory.  It's a hard call.

That's not going to happen.  Again, God is a God that honors our free agency most of all: there is no forcing, no being "stuck".  No misery either.

Now, do we know the details of how this is all going to look like?  No, of course not.  Speaking personally, I can't comprehend living with my great-grandparents and great-grandchildren at the same time just due to the age differences)-- and that's a tinsy-tiny thing!  Now, actually living with Heavenly Father too and all that joy... yeah, my mind is not remotely capable of understanding that at this time.

[Blossom76]

13 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

That's not going to happen.  Again, God is a God that honors our free agency most of all: there is no forcing, no being "stuck".  No misery either.

Now, do we know the details of how this is all going to look like?  No, of course not.  Speaking personally, I can't comprehend living with my great-grandparents and great-grandchildren at the same time just due to the age differences)-- and that's a tinsy-tiny thing!  Now, actually living with Heavenly Father too and all that joy... yeah, my mind is not remotely capable of understanding that at this time.

But you do need to be sealed in a temple marriage to achieve the highest level of heaven right? So if the first wife choose not to live polygamy in eternity then she's single again (like divorced in eternity) so can't be in the celestial kingdom.  ARHHH this is doing my head in, anyone got any links for me to read? I really need to make peace with this

[Jane_Doe]

2 minutes ago, Blossom76 said:

But you do need to be sealed in a temple marriage to achieve the highest level of heaven right? 

What is known: the highest happiness and glory is experienced as married couples.  

But that doesn't mean things are copy-paste of what we experience in this life-- in fact we know it's NOT- we live in a fallen world and have fallen family members and are fallen ourselves.  You will not be copy-paste, and neither will your relationships. 

2 minutes ago, Blossom76 said:

 So if the first wife choose not to live polygamy in eternity then she's single again (like divorced in eternity) so can't be in the celestial kingdom.  ARHHH this is doing my head in, anyone got any links for me to read? I really need to make peace with this

Trust God.  He sees the big picture, He is going to honor each person's desires and make them beyond-beyond happy. Do we understand the details of the how-- no, we're not God, we can't.  This is a matter of trusting Him.

 

[Alex]

1 hour ago, Blossom76 said:

But you do need to be sealed in a temple marriage to achieve the highest level of heaven right? So if the first wife choose not to live polygamy in eternity then she's single again (like divorced in eternity) so can't be in the celestial kingdom.  ARHHH this is doing my head in, anyone got any links for me to read? I really need to make peace with this

Hmm, not going to help you find peace on this but do have an interesting anecdote about laws and how the old laws apply here, even though the old laws cannot be pursued today.

 

A sister in my branch got married in the temple in the 1960's to her first husband. They later split and separated (still friends) and had an earthly divorce. The sealing is still in place (because the doctrine on this practice at that time allowed for such) and funnily enough her cousin married the first husband and they are all good friends and have dinner with each other regularly still!

She then went on and married again in the temple and was sealed to her second husband. The second husband later died so she went to the temple president and asked 'which husband she would have for eternity?' and was told that 'she would be able to choose from either'- totally her choice.

In the 80's or might have been the 90's the church made the statement that men who are married & sealed in the temple cannot put aside their wife for this life anymore, because there were some men men who under the belief that they could go out and marry a tender & fresh young new wife while still having the older wife in the eternities, thus the older wife becomes a lonely spinster in this life which isn't fair and even the old testament warns against this.

So, now the doctrine is any person who is sealed and has an earthly divorce in this life, loses that partner s/he was sealed to.

These refinements to the law happen for good reason. In fact law in general is refined over time as new hurdles arise- In the nations of USA, CAN, AUS, NZ all law stems from original English law, from England going way back to the magna carta blah blah etc.

With church law or doctrine, all laws stem from the original revelations given to Joseph Smith and are added to or revised and refined over time by the prophets of the age.

 

So, consider the case of poor old Parley P. Pratt who was brutally murdered by an irate husband of a woman that Parley was sealed to only.

Parley didn't marry her for time here on earth- he only married her for eternity. However, this so outraged the earthly husband that in a fit of rage, the husband slew Parley. What's crazy about that case was that the irate husband didn't even believe in the church. If he didn't believe in the church then the weird little ceremony his wife undertook in the Mormon temple shouldn't have set him off, after all, THE HUSBAND DIDN'T EVEN BELIEVE IN ANY OF IT. Parley had no physical relationship with this woman for the marital contract there was not for this life. Following this event the doctrine was further defined so that no longer could a couple just be sealed for the eternities. Those sealing only marriages performed at the time still remain intact though.

 

Edited November 29, 2017 by Alex
clarity

[Blossom76]

1 hour ago, Jane_Doe said:

Trust God.  He sees the big picture, He is going to honor each person's desires and make them beyond-beyond happy. Do we understand the details of the how-- no, we're not God, we can't.  This is a matter of trusting Him.

Please believe me when I say I mean absolutely no offence whatsoever when I say this (I am a very sincere investigator) but I don't see this as a matter of trusting God, I trust God without question.  For me the trust issue here is with LDS teachings, which are supposedly given to LDS Prophets by God, so for me this is a matter of trusting the LDS teachings and prophets.  If they are speaking for God then this is true, if they are not then this is not true.

Eternity is a long time and my husband isn't likely to join the LDS church and get sealed to me in a temple so where do I go for eternity? 

[estradling75]

Every Religion reaches where they have to say.  We don't know but we trust God to make it right.  If we had all the answers there would be no need for Faith no struggle to believe God.

The LDS church is not immune to this it is inherent in the plan God has for us.  In the LDS church is it very clear that we are only responsible for the things we had control over and understood at the time we acted.

This is why we don't have Original Sin because it is not right to punish us and hold us accountable for things we did not do and had no control over.  Its why we do not baptize infants or little children, because they do not need it until they can understand. This is why we do not think all those that lived and died before the church was restored are going to Hell.

This is why when you live your life and covert after you get married, and never have the chance to get Sealed you are still good.  A married couple who has a spouse fall away.  The spouse falling away does not mean the other spouse is going to be denied due to no fault of their own.  If you die and your spouse removes the Sealing you are not denied due to what they did after you died.

Now how does the Lord Fix things so that all the blessing due to all the deserving people... well that get speculative.  What is not speculative is that the Lord will fix it... because he said he would.  So the question is... Do you trust him? 

[Vort]

56 minutes ago, Alex said:

A sister in my branch got married in the temple in the 1960's to her first husband. They later split and separated (still friends) and had an earthly divorce. The sealing is still in place (because the doctrine on this practice at that time allowed for such) and funnily enough her cousin married the first husband and they are all good friends and have dinner with each other regularly still!

She then went on and married again in the temple and was sealed to her second husband. The second husband later died so she went to the temple president and asked 'which husband she would have for eternity?' and was told that 'she would be able to choose from either'- totally her choice.

In the 80's or might have been the 90's the church made the statement that men who are married & sealed in the temple cannot put aside their wife for this life anymore, because there were some men men who under the belief that they could go out and marry a tender & fresh young new wife while still having the older wife in the eternities, thus the older wife becomes a lonely spinster in this life which isn't fair and even the old testament warns against this.

So, now the doctrine is any person who is sealed and has an earthly divorce in this life, loses that partner s/he was sealed to.

These refinements to the law happen for good reason. In fact law in general is refined over time as new hurdles arise- In the nations of USA, CAN, AUS, NZ all law stems from original English law, from England going way back to the magna carta blah blah etc.

With church law or doctrine, all laws stem from the original revelations given to Joseph Smith and are added to or revised and refined over time by the prophets of the age.

Alex, there is so much wrong here that I don't know where to start. Suffice it to say that, doctrinally speaking, most of what you say above simply is not true.

[Alex]

Just now, Vort said:

Alex, there is so much wrong here that I don't know where to start. Suffice it to say that, doctrinally speaking, most of what you say above simply is not true.

I stand by everything posted there.

You need to be particular in what you disagree with.

[Blossom76]

5 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

Now how does the Lord Fix things so that all the blessing due to all the deserving people... well that get speculative.  What is not speculative is that the Lord will fix it... because he said he would.  So the question is... Do you trust him? 

Again, with respect, this is not a question of trusting God, this is a question of trusting that the LDS prophets and LDS church are in fact speaking for him.  I shall pray on it, a lot!

[estradling75]

Just now, Blossom76 said:

Again, with respect, this is not a question of trusting God, this is a question of trusting that the LDS prophets and LDS church are in fact speaking for him.  I shall pray on it, a lot!

Fair enough... Have you been reading the Book of Mormon?

[Blossom76]

Just now, estradling75 said:

Fair enough... Have you been reading the Book of Mormon?

Yes I try to read a couple of chapters everyday  

[estradling75]

1 minute ago, Blossom76 said:

Yes I try to read a couple of chapters everyday  

Awesome... Because if/when you know the Book of Mormon is a true book of scripture like it says it... well then you have your answer on the whole Catholic/LDS authority to speak  for God debate.

[Blossom76]

1 minute ago, estradling75 said:

Awesome... Because if/when you know the Book of Mormon is a true book of scripture like it says it... well then you have your answer on the whole Catholic/LDS authority to speak  for God debate.

I've actually just finished reading Jacob (I know I'm not very far in) But it mentions a few times that polygamy is an abomination to God so how can it be allowed in Heaven? Or on earth for that matter - I know its not done anymore on earth but it was and by Joseph - who dictated the Book of Mormon - which says polygamy is an abomination to God - doesn't make much sense.  How can a prophet go against the Book of Mormon? Especially the Prophet that first did the translation? I find that concept very confusing

[Vort]

1 hour ago, Alex said:

The sealing is still in place (because the doctrine on this practice at that time allowed for such)

 As it does now. A divorce does not negate a sealing.

1 hour ago, Alex said:

The second husband later died so she went to the temple president and asked 'which husband she would have for eternity?' and was told that 'she would be able to choose from either'- totally her choice.

This is what many Latter-day Saints, including temple presidents, say. But it is mere speculation. There is no established teaching that "the woman gets to choose".

1 hour ago, Alex said:

In the 80's or might have been the 90's the church made the statement that men who are married & sealed in the temple cannot put aside their wife for this life anymore, because there were some men men who under the belief that they could go out and marry a tender & fresh young new wife while still having the older wife in the eternities, thus the older wife becomes a lonely spinster in this life which isn't fair and even the old testament warns against this.

I can't figure out what you're trying to say. In fact, a man can divorce his wife and marry a "tender & fresh young new wife", assuming any young woman was foolish enough to want to marry some old lech. The Church does not prohibit such actions.

Now, can such a man who acts in that manner possibly be a celestial person? Not unless he repents. He is a fool and will have no wife at all in eternity if what you describe was his intention, unless he repents of such infamous actions. But your implication seems to be that the Church somehow prohibits such things. The Church does not prohibit such things. People can act as they will, and the Church will do nothing more serious than excommunicate them. As far as I know, divorcing your old wife and marrying a young wife does not normally open a man up for excommunication.

1 hour ago, Alex said:

So, now the doctrine is any person who is sealed and has an earthly divorce in this life, loses that partner s/he was sealed to.

This is false. There is no such doctrine in the Church. If a woman is sealed to her ex-husband, she cannot be sealed to her new husband until and unless her first sealing is cancelled by the First Presidency.

 

[estradling75]

3 minutes ago, Blossom76 said:

I've actually just finished reading Jacob (I know I'm not very far in) But it mentions a few times that polygamy is an abomination to God so how can it be allowed in Heaven? Or on earth for that matter - I know its not done anymore on earth but it was and by Joseph - who dictated the Book of Mormon - which says polygamy is an abomination to God - doesn't make much sense.  How can a prophet go against the Book of Mormon? Especially the Prophet that first did the translation? I find that concept very confusing

Jacob 2 Verse 30  contains the answer

30 For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things.

If the Lord does not command it is an abomination... However he clearly states that he might have a reason to command it... And if he makes the command it is no longer an abomination.

Thus Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, etc did not go contrary to the  the Book of Mormon.  They had the explicit command from God to do so

[Blossom76]

3 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

Jacob 2 Verse 30  contains the answer

30 For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things.

If the Lord does not command it is an abomination... However he clearly states that he might have a reason to command it... And if he makes the command it is no longer an abomination.

Thus Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, etc did not go contrary to the  the Book of Mormon.  They had the explicit command from God to do so

This helps, thank you, but I still don't know where I will be placed in heaven if I am not sealed in a temple.

[Alex]

1 minute ago, Vort said:

 As it does now. A divorce does not negate a sealing.

No, you need to go and look at the doctrine there because modern revelation has changed that stance. A divorce does negate a sealing because the whole problem was that males were opting to put aside their wives. It was actually addressed in a conference talk within the last 15 years.

It's hard to respond with these boxes so I'll respond with more posts.

 

 

 

[Vort]

3 minutes ago, Alex said:

No, you need to go and look at the doctrine there because modern revelation has changed that stance. A divorce does negate a sealing because the whole problem was that males were opting to put aside their wives. It was actually addressed in a conference talk within the last 15 years.

It's hard to respond with these boxes so I'll respond with more posts.

How about just post the Church Handbook section, General Conference talk, or other source for your claim? That would be the most helpful and efficient thing.