Creation and Garden Story: Instructional Value?


wenglund
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8 hours ago, wenglund said:

though the darkness cant comprehend the light (v. 5),  signifying a separation between the two.

Just a side note: I suspect most of us think of "comprehend" as "understand" - that is the most common modern usage.  But in Johnson's 1768 dictionary (oldest one I can find), the first definition is "To comprise; to include", the second is phrased as "To contain in the mind; to conceive."  This sequence may not relate to the most common usage of the word, let alone the intent of the translators of the KJV Bible.  But, when I see the word "comprehend", I always think of both definitions, and the first includes (for me) the idea of surrounding, containing, encompassing.  In short, the darkness cannot encapsulate, surround, stop, put out, block, hide the light.

Now back to your regularly scheduled creation.

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On 12/15/2017 at 12:08 PM, wenglund said:

Joseph Smith provides an interesting reconciliation. (see HERE---second paragraph after the brief poem), though some Jews disagree (see HERE)

I realize this is an old post.  But I just took the time to read the links.  The first is the King Follett discourse, with which we are all familiar.  But the Jewish commentary is interesting.  This "Jewish Scholar" takes tremendous offense at Joseph's attempt at translation.  He then provides his own analysis.  I was quite amused at his "reaching" and contradictory statements.  Then he has to cherry pick just right in order to barely, and inaccurately make his point.

He says that Bara means "the beginning of" rather than "the beginning."  That makes even more sense out of Joseph's translation.

He quotes Talmage as having contradicted Joseph's interpretation.  Actually, I thought it confirmed it.  The Jewish Scholar didn't even take the time to understand what Joseph was saying before he decided to argue with it.

He continues down this same road with his subsequent arguments.

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On 1/6/2018 at 8:15 PM, JohnsonJones said:

Well, in physics I believe they have the idea of a multi-verse, where there are multiple universes and our universe is just one of many various universes out there.  Perhaps it is possible that each is ruled over and each in many ways is endless and infinite 

On 1/6/2018 at 10:40 PM, Vort said:

That's more a Marvel Comics idea. The concept exists as a part of metaphysics, but it's hardly mainstream physics

Yes and no.  JJ's statement could be taken a couple of ways.  If he's talking about the multiverse a la Marvel, DC, and Star Trek, then you're correct.

But JJ's statement could very well mean something else:  another universe created by God as another independent sphere of existence.  It is not that dissimilar from creating another galaxy.  He just wanted to make sure there was no way we could come into contact with each other. 

I remember reading a recent theory (about a year or two ago) that the singularity that began the big bang was really an explosion from another universe that spawned ours.  And for some reason, they believed that it was a "bigger universe" than ours.

The following link is not exactly how I remember reading the article last year, but it was the first one I could find that talked about it.

http://www.dailygalaxy.com/my_weblog/2017/11/seeing-through-the-big-bang-into-another-universe-ligo-gravitational-wave-discovery-may-confirm-an-o.html

I have no problem believing that the "other worlds" that are described in Moses 1 are other universes that are independent from ours.

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14 hours ago, zil said:

Just a side note: I suspect most of us think of "comprehend" as "understand" - that is the most common modern usage.  But in Johnson's 1768 dictionary (oldest one I can find), the first definition is "To comprise; to include", the second is phrased as "To contain in the mind; to conceive."  This sequence may not relate to the most common usage of the word, let alone the intent of the translators of the KJV Bible.  But, when I see the word "comprehend", I always think of both definitions, and the first includes (for me) the idea of surrounding, containing, encompassing.  In short, the darkness cannot encapsulate, surround, stop, put out, block, hide the light.

Now back to your regularly scheduled creation.

That is interesting and helpful. the 1828 Webster's Dictionary provides pretty much the same first definition as Johnson, though it also gives the third definition as "To Understand, to conceive." So, it is debatable which definition is correct. Either way, my point about the separation still applies.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

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According to Covenant Creationists (Preterists), the Second Day represents the covenant age from Noah to Abraham (whereas Day One represented the age from Adam to Noah). Here is their scriptural support:

Quote

Gen 1:6 ESV "And God said, 'Let there be an expanse in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters.' 7 And God made the expanse and separated the waters that were under the expanse from the waters that were above the expanse. … God called the expanse Heaven… the second day."

First, let’s try to define how scripture uses “the waters.” So, by searching scripture, we find that Revelation says the waters represent peoples, nations, and languages. Can this make sense to describe the story form Noah to Abraham?

 Rev 17:15 ESV "And the angel said to me, "THE WATERS that you saw, where the prostitute is seated, are PEOPLES and MULTITUDES and NATIONS and LANGUAGES."

Gen 10:32 "These are the families of the sons of Noah, after their generations, in their nations: and of these were the nations divided in the earth after the flood."

Gen 10:5 "By these were the isles of the Gentiles divided in their lands; every one after his tongue, after their families, in their nations."

Do the waters/peoples above the expanse represent the line of Shem after Babel? Revelation says that the waters represent peoples, nations, and languages – the very issues we find under discussion from Noah until Abraham.

Gen 11:9 "Therefore its name was called Babel, because there the LORD confused the language of all the earth. And from there the LORD dispersed them over the face of all the earth. 10 These are the generations of Shem."

The creation or separation of the peoples are documented in Gen 10-11 in the Table of Nations. Babel is surely a religious division of heavenly magnitude. It has been recognized that Pentecost was the re-gathering of the Nations back into fold of God in the one language of God through Christ.

On another note, we have the first designation of the heavens declared, which we Preterists recognize as one of the designations for Israel as they are called the heavens and the earth. I would anticipate shortly that we should see the further creation of the earth out of the waters to complete the heavens and earth of Israel.

Something to consider.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

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20 hours ago, Carborendum said:

Yes and no.  JJ's statement could be taken a couple of ways.  If he's talking about the multiverse a la Marvel, DC, and Star Trek, then you're correct.

But JJ's statement could very well mean something else:  another universe created by God as another independent sphere of existence.  It is not that dissimilar from creating another galaxy.  He just wanted to make sure there was no way we could come into contact with each other. 

I remember reading a recent theory (about a year or two ago) that the singularity that began the big bang was really an explosion from another universe that spawned ours.  And for some reason, they believed that it was a "bigger universe" than ours.

The following link is not exactly how I remember reading the article last year, but it was the first one I could find that talked about it.

http://www.dailygalaxy.com/my_weblog/2017/11/seeing-through-the-big-bang-into-another-universe-ligo-gravitational-wave-discovery-may-confirm-an-o.html

I have no problem believing that the "other worlds" that are described in Moses 1 are other universes that are independent from ours.

yes, it's more of the latter.  I don't really know about the comic's multiverse thing, but the bubbleverse or multiple universe thing from physics is what I was referring to.

Multiverse general idea

scientific america multiverse

scientific american more evidence that we are living in a multiverse

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Given the close relationship between creation and procreation, do you suppose it is possible that Day One of the Creation story could symbolize conception, with the formless earth represent the female womb, and the "deep" and "waters" representing the male sperm and the female egg, and where the Spirit moved upon the waters represent the quickening spark, thereby "let there be light" and life?

If so, then perhaps Day Two marks the dividing of the cells, as represented by the dividing of the waters  from the waters and the waters from the dry land?

Day Three, then may represent nourishing changes in the heavenly womb, with the Sun representing the Uterine sack and the moon and stars representing the umbilical cord.

While day four may represents development equivalent to that of plants,  day five may represent development equivalent to that of animals, and then on to day six, when development is near completion, labor begins, and finally the child is born,  in the image and likeness of the parents created they him or her. And, on the 7th day the procreators rest from their labors.

Since we each were brought into the world via this miraculous manner, this interpretation of the Creation story provides a way of likening the scriptures unto ourselves.

By extension, the same may be said of likening the Creation story to birth into the Church of God (born again) through baptism,  the Spirit moving, obedience, spiritual development, and enduring to the end.

And, if that weren't enough, the Creation story may also be likened to birth unto everlasting life through the resurrection, where a formless body lying in the grave has the quickening Spirit move upon it, bringing it to life, then to stand before God to be judged and ultimately attain an appropriate kingdom throughout time.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

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My primary reason for posting this thread was to discover what things we today can learn from the Creation story, and implement it into our lives for the better.

Fittingly, today's Sunday School lesson was geared in that very direction (or at least that is the direction my Gospel Doctrine teach took it). There were several edifying principles and points that were mentioned. I will list a couple of them, and invite others to share what things they have learned for the better from the Creation story 

  1. Work and then rest from your labors.
  2. God desires goodness, and goodness is a function of obeying God's commands, and it is measured by whether one is progressing from chaos to order, from formlessness to beauty.
  3. It all centers on Christ
  4. While man may feel as if they are nothing upon considering the infinite universe of God's creations, with its countless stars and so forth (Moses 1:8-10) and Psalms 8:3) , they can be made to feel amazingly important upon realizing that each and every step of the creation was for their benefit as well as their dominion and eventual inheritance.
  5. Stories, particularly of a religious nature, are quite different from scientific papers--not just in terms of scholastic rigor, but also in terms of intent. Stories are intended to convey meaningfulness, value, purpose, morals, goodness  and beauty, whereas scientific paper are intended to convey facts and figures and conclusions based on those facts and figures. That which is designed to build human character is not the same as that which is designed to build skyscrapers or weather computer models. That which is designed to map the way to ones better self is dissimilar to that which maps out the vast universe or microscopic genomes.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

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On ‎1‎/‎21‎/‎2018 at 8:02 PM, wenglund said:

My primary reason for posting this thread was to discover what things we today can learn from the Creation story, and implement it into our lives for the better.

Fittingly, today's Sunday School lesson was geared in that very direction (or at least that is the direction my Gospel Doctrine teach took it). There were several edifying principles and points that were mentioned. I will list a couple of them, and invite others to share what things they have learned for the better from the Creation story 

  1. Work and then rest from your labors.
  2. God desires goodness, and goodness is a function of obeying God's commands, and it is measured by whether one is progressing from chaos to order, from formlessness to beauty.
  3. It all centers on Christ
  4. While man may feel as if they are nothing upon considering the infinite universe of God's creations, with its countless stars and so forth (Moses 1:8-10) and Psalms 8:3) , they can be made to feel amazingly important upon realizing that each and every step of the creation was for their benefit as well as their dominion and eventual inheritance.
  5. Stories, particularly of a religious nature, are quite different from scientific papers--not just in terms of scholastic rigor, but also in terms of intent. Stories are intended to convey meaningfulness, value, purpose, morals, goodness  and beauty, whereas scientific paper are intended to convey facts and figures and conclusions based on those facts and figures. That which is designed to build human character is not the same as that which is designed to build skyscrapers or weather computer models. That which is designed to map the way to ones better self is dissimilar to that which maps out the vast universe or microscopic genomes.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

 

Some comments:

#1 When we speak of the term “rest” as it relates to the Sabbath – it is the same rest of G-d that is defined by the “next” step of our progression into eternal life.  When we are resurrected we “rest” from our mortal labors.

#2 To know G-d is the know the order of things, both that which is spiritual and that which is physical – Science is the study of the order and laws the govern that which is physical.   Science is part of knowing G-d.

#3. Jesus is the example of divine order.

#4. Mortal man is nothing – it is only through the glory of the plan of salvation that man becomes something of value – both physically and spiritually.

#5. Science defines the physical laws.  But it is by the spirit we learn the spiritual laws, ordinances and covenants of salvation.  I submit that it is also by the spirit that we understand that the physicals laws of science also teach of us G-d.

 

The Traveler

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14 hours ago, Traveler said:

 

Some comments:

#1 When we speak of the term “rest” as it relates to the Sabbath – it is the same rest of G-d that is defined by the “next” step of our progression into eternal life.  When we are resurrected we “rest” from our mortal labors.

#2 To know G-d is the know the order of things, both that which is spiritual and that which is physical – Science is the study of the order and laws the govern that which is physical.   Science is part of knowing G-d.

#3. Jesus is the example of divine order.

#4. Mortal man is nothing – it is only through the glory of the plan of salvation that man becomes something of value – both physically and spiritually.

#5. Science defines the physical laws.  But it is by the spirit we learn the spiritual laws, ordinances and covenants of salvation.  I submit that it is also by the spirit that we understand that the physicals laws of science also teach of us G-d.

 

The Traveler

Just to clarify. My intent wasn't to pit science against religion, or to create the false dichotomy of choosing between the two. Rather, it was intended to suggest that we examine the texts for each with their respective purposes and styles in mind. In other words, instead of subjecting the Creation story to scientific rigor, look to it for meaningfulness, purpose, morals, etc. Whereas, freely subject Darwin's "Origin of the Species" to scientific rigor, while not looking to it for meaningfulness, purpose, morals, etc.

In short, we rightly, and for good reason, read personal journals and novels differently than scientific journal and papers.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

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On 1/21/2018 at 8:02 PM, wenglund said:

My primary reason for posting this thread was to discover what things we today can learn from the Creation story, and implement it into our lives for the better.

Fittingly, today's Sunday School lesson was geared in that very direction (or at least that is the direction my Gospel Doctrine teach took it). There were several edifying principles and points that were mentioned. I will list a couple of them, and invite others to share what things they have learned for the better from the Creation story 

  1. Work and then rest from your labors.
  2. God desires goodness, and goodness is a function of obeying God's commands, and it is measured by whether one is progressing from chaos to order, from formlessness to beauty.
  3. It all centers on Christ
  4. While man may feel as if they are nothing upon considering the infinite universe of God's creations, with its countless stars and so forth (Moses 1:8-10) and Psalms 8:3) , they can be made to feel amazingly important upon realizing that each and every step of the creation was for their benefit as well as their dominion and eventual inheritance.
  5. Stories, particularly of a religious nature, are quite different from scientific papers--not just in terms of scholastic rigor, but also in terms of intent. Stories are intended to convey meaningfulness, value, purpose, morals, goodness  and beauty, whereas scientific paper are intended to convey facts and figures and conclusions based on those facts and figures. That which is designed to build human character is not the same as that which is designed to build skyscrapers or weather computer models. That which is designed to map the way to ones better self is dissimilar to that which maps out the vast universe or microscopic genomes.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I think one of the main messages of the creation story is to let us know that this life is one small step in a multi-step process.  Many don't see the perspective that the creation story provides.  It gives us an idea of the reason for this life.  Most would suggest that this life is it, there is no 'behind the scenes' reason to be here.  Because of the creation story we better understand the perspective that this life is a short time in the bigger process of becoming like our Father in Heaven.  We understand that in order to be tested we had to be exposed to agency, right vs wrong.  And in order to be exposed to that we had to Fall from His presence.  We could not be exposed to that choice and remain in His presence at the same time any more than a young adult could be "on  her own" while living in her parent's home.  This is why we are momentarily cut off, we die.  To mature we had to have a chance to show that we could take on stewardship and fulfill our promises.  If we Fall from his presence we need a way back which is through the gospel and through Jesus Christ with which we can live again.  The creation story sets the scene for all that takes place in this life which again is one step of many and not everything.

On the other hand, if one believes we are here by random chance and not design then one cannot begin to understand the purpose of this life.  There is no purpose if it is a random event.  There would be no before or after. The creation story provides the premise for the purpose of this life.  I don't think we need to read a whole lot more into it than that.

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On 1/21/2018 at 9:02 PM, wenglund said:

My primary reason for posting this thread was to discover what things we today can learn from the Creation story, and implement it into our lives for the better.

Fittingly, today's Sunday School lesson was geared in that very direction (or at least that is the direction my Gospel Doctrine teach took it). There were several edifying principles and points that were mentioned. I will list a couple of them, and invite others to share what things they have learned for the better from the Creation story 

  1. Work and then rest from your labors.
  2. God desires goodness, and goodness is a function of obeying God's commands, and it is measured by whether one is progressing from chaos to order, from formlessness to beauty.
  3. It all centers on Christ
  4. While man may feel as if they are nothing upon considering the infinite universe of God's creations, with its countless stars and so forth (Moses 1:8-10) and Psalms 8:3) , they can be made to feel amazingly important upon realizing that each and every step of the creation was for their benefit as well as their dominion and eventual inheritance.
  5. Stories, particularly of a religious nature, are quite different from scientific papers--not just in terms of scholastic rigor, but also in terms of intent. Stories are intended to convey meaningfulness, value, purpose, morals, goodness  and beauty, whereas scientific paper are intended to convey facts and figures and conclusions based on those facts and figures. That which is designed to build human character is not the same as that which is designed to build skyscrapers or weather computer models. That which is designed to map the way to ones better self is dissimilar to that which maps out the vast universe or microscopic genomes.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I've spent some time thinking about your hypothesis about the days of creation in or out of order.  I'm not quite sure what it all means, but here is what I've found (and am still pondering).

Chapter 1 shows an increase of complexity, ending with man.  Plants are there before man to provide him meat.

Chapter 2 shows a decrease of complexity, beginning with man. No plants until man was there to till the ground.

I find the word "generations" in 2:4 to be problematic.  Since this was the first generation, what were "generations"?  The BLB indicates the root word in Hebrew is "From."  Ok, so this is where all things came from.  So, generations does not mean the generations of fathers and sons, but rather that "things were generated."  That seems to fit this better.

But why is it that these two chapters mirror each other in order?  I believe they're actually talking about two different things.  They could be analogous to us as children vs. adults.  The fall would then have to be seen as being a process rather than a single event.

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53 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

I've spent some time thinking about your hypothesis about the days of creation in or out of order.  I'm not quite sure what it all means, but here is what I've found (and am still pondering).

Chapter 1 shows an increase of complexity, ending with man.  Plants are there before man to provide him meat.

Chapter 2 shows a decrease of complexity, beginning with man. No plants until man was there to till the ground.

I find the word "generations" in 2:4 to be problematic.  Since this was the first generation, what were "generations"?  The BLB indicates the root word in Hebrew is "From."  Ok, so this is where all things came from.  So, generations does not mean the generations of fathers and sons, but rather that "things were generated."  That seems to fit this better.

But why is it that these two chapters mirror each other in order?  I believe they're actually talking about two different things.  They could be analogous to us as children vs. adults.  The fall would then have to be seen as being a process rather than a single event.

That is an interesting perspective on the word "generations." I just checked the 1828 Websters Dictionary, and the most common definition of the word back in that day was :

Quote

1. Production; formation; as the generation of sounds or of curves or equations.

The example of sounds ties in nicely with Jn 1:1-3  

The second through 6th definitions are the ones we think of most nowadays--i.e. an age, a period of time , genealogy,  family/race, and progeny/offspring respectively.

As for the mirroring of the two chapters, your's is thought-provoking proposition that can be added to others that come to mind, such as first details the proposed plan, and the second focuses on the implementation of the later part of the plan; or the one tells of the spirit creation (celetial),, while the other tells of the spiritual (terrestrial) and then  physical (telestial) creations.

At this point, who knows?  However, I am learning by contemplating the question, and I will think more about your proposition. Feel free to expand on your idea. In fact, is it plausible that the fall could be both an event and a processes--not unlike conversion and ascension to divinity? Could it be that each trajectory (fall vs ascension) has its own gate (event) and path (process)? It makes sense to me.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

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13 minutes ago, wenglund said:

As for the mirroring of the two chapters, your's is thought-provoking proposition that can be added to others that come to mind, such as first details the proposed plan, and the second focuses on the implementation of the later part of the plan; or the one tells of the spirit creation (celetial),, while the other tells of the spiritual (terrestrial) and then  physical (telestial) creations.

At this point, who knows?  However, I am learning by contemplating the question, and I will think more about your proposition. Feel free to expand on your idea. In fact, is it plausible that the fall could be both an event and a processes--not unlike conversion and ascension to divinity? Could it be that each trajectory (fall vs ascension) has its own gate (event) and path (process)? It makes sense to me.

The PoGP account supports that theory.

Quote

And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew. For I, the Lord God, created all things, of which I have spoken, spiritually, before they were naturally upon the face of the earth. For I, the Lord God, had not caused it to rain upon the face of the earth. And I, the Lord God, had created all the children of men; and not yet a man to till the ground; for in heaven created I them; and there was not yet flesh upon the earth, neither in the water, neither in the air;

Moses 3:5

Then verse 9 gives an alternative

Quote

And out of the ground made I, the Lord God, to grow every tree, naturally, that is pleasant to the sight of man; and man could behold it. And it became also a living soul. For it was spiritual in the day that I created it; for it remaineth in the sphere in which I, God, created it, yea, even all things which I prepared for the use of man; and man saw that it was good for food. And I, the Lord God, planted the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and also the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

This lends to Brigham Young's theory about the earth being thrust out of the celestial sphere upon the fall.  But again we've got severe issues with timing and sequence.

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28 minutes ago, wenglund said:

That is an interesting perspective on the word "generations." I just checked the 1828 Websters Dictionary, and the most common definition of the word back in that day was :

Quote

1. Production; formation; as the generation of sounds or of curves or equations.

We have almost lost the meaning of the word "generation", but it is key to understanding the scriptures. The word "generation" in scripture commonly refers to seed or posterity. So Isaiah asks who shall declare Christ's generation, meaning who shall declare his seed. This one small realization opened a whole swath of scriptures to my understanding.

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15 minutes ago, Vort said:

We have almost lost the meaning of the word "generation", but it is key to understanding the scriptures. The word "generation" in scripture commonly refers to seed or posterity. So Isaiah asks who shall declare Christ's generation, meaning who shall declare his seed. This one small realization opened a whole swath of scriptures to my understanding.

Yes. And, particularly in relation to this thread, I like how the word "generation" comprehends (another scriptural word I have come to appreciate more lately) two other closely related words: creation and procreation.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

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Moving on to the third day or time, the dividing continues. On the first day, light was divided from darkness and day from night (and, depending upon the account, the sun was divided from the moon and stars), with morning and evening in between. The second day the waters were divided from the waters or the heavens from the earth. On the third day the waters were divided from the dry land, or the seas divided from the earth.

What do you suppose is the significance of all this dividing?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

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1 hour ago, wenglund said:

Moving on to the third day or time, the dividing continues. On the first day, light was divided from darkness and day from night (and, depending upon the account, the sun was divided from the moon and stars), with morning and evening in between. The second day the waters were divided from the waters or the heavens from the earth. On the third day the waters were divided from the dry land, or the seas divided from the earth.

What do you suppose is the significance of all this dividing?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Chemistry and science happening.

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1 hour ago, wenglund said:

My understanding is that science didn't begin until Hippocrates circa 460-375 BC (see HERE) Are you suggesting that the  earth was created less than 2,500 years ago? ;)

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

 

It would seem that there are great mysteries concerning this little planet that are mocked, mostly by those of ignorant religious stripe.  That claim G-d lies through the evidences he deliberately leaves behind (rather than evidence for truth) in order to deceive mankind about how and when he interferes in the otherwise “natural” processes of empirical evidences; of a preponderance of what once was so long long ago.

 

The Traveler

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20 minutes ago, Traveler said:

 

It would seem that there are great mysteries concerning this little planet that are mocked, mostly by those of ignorant religious stripe.  That claim G-d lies through the evidences he deliberately leaves behind (rather than evidence for truth) in order to deceive mankind about how and when he interferes in the otherwise “natural” processes of empirical evidences; of a preponderance of what once was so long long ago.

 

The Traveler

I see evidence everywhere for a global flood. Its a no- brainer.

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27 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

I see evidence everywhere for a global flood. Its a no- brainer.

The evidence there is deceptive, though; we wouldn't get yards-thick layers of marine fossils from a 40-day flood here, (400 miles from the nearest body of salt water) for example.

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44 minutes ago, NightSG said:

The evidence there is deceptive, though; we wouldn't get yards-thick layers of marine fossils from a 40-day flood here, (400 miles from the nearest body of salt water) for example.

Well, have you accounted for all the fountains of the great deep broken up? Great catastrophic events happened. It was a catastrophic flood that destroyed the earth.

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3 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

Well, have you accounted for all the fountains of the great deep broken up?

Shallow water fossils and a smooth transition to deeper in one direction and land-based plants in the other doesn't match a large cataclysmic event; that would be like throwing a handful of playing cards out the car window on the freeway, and having them land in perfect new-deck order.

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