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    • Heather

      Mormon Hub Rules - Please be familiar with these rules before posting   04/17/08

        Any views expressed on Mormon Hub are independent of and do not represent the views of Mormon Hub, More Good Foundation, or Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Site Rules 1. Do not post, upload, or otherwise submit anything to the site that is derogatory towards The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, its teachings, or its leaders. Anti-LDS Propaganda will not be tolerated anywhere. 2. Please be conscious of the fact that although Mormon Hub is aimed towards an LDS audience, that the membership of this site consists of friends from an array of different backgrounds, beliefs, and cultures. Please be respectful and courteous to all, and know that everyone who is willing to follow the Rules and Terms of Mormon Hub are welcome to participate and be a member of Mormon Hub. Keep in mind that anything posted, uploaded, or otherwise displayed on the site should be understandable to friends of other faiths as well as to members. Please define any LDS vocabulary that friends of other faiths may not understand (i.e. Mutual, Relief Society, and Deacon.) 3. Personal attacks, name calling, flaming, and judgments against other members will not be tolerated. 4. No bickering and nit-picking toward others. Realize that sometimes it is very difficult to be able to express how one feels through written words. Please be courteous and ask for a further explanation, rather then trying to attack and find holes in someone else's post. 5. No cursing or crude language. Any swearing, including filter skipping, will result in an automatic one week suspension. 6. Posting issues you have with a moderator or administrator anywhere on the site will not be allowed. Please follow the chain of authority if you have any concerns. Any such posts will be removed and the poster will be subject to the consequences of breaking the rules. List of site moderators Course of action that should be taken if you have a concern: - Send a message directly to the moderator you have a concern about. If you are unable to work out the problem then, - Send a message to the head moderators. - If after you have approached both avenues, you may then send a message to Heather; however know that Heather is very unlikely to over rule anything that has been sanctioned by the moderators and head moderators. 7. Multiple accounts are not allowed and will result in all accounts being banned from the site. 8. Please do not share any "true" or "faith promoting" stories, unless you can verify the source. 9. Do not post any copyrighted material, unless the copyright is owned by you. 10. Bigoted/racial/ethnic comments will not be tolerated. Political Neutrality Policy More Good Foundation, as a nonprofit foundation, must remain neutral with respect to partisan politics and candidate campaigns for public office. The foundation encourages its members and staff to be informed about political issues and to be engaged in civic life; however, it does not endorse or oppose any political parties, candidates, or platforms. Mormon Hub will allow political discussion, also long as all posts remain neutral with respect to partisan politics and candidate campaigns for public office. You may not use the site to show support, endorse, oppose or sanction any candidate. In addition, all posts must be respectful and sensitive to readers of all political beliefs and backgrounds. Any post that violates any of the above conditions will be dealt with according to the consequences of breaking the rules. As a non-profit organization, 501©3, we are governed by legal constraints relative to writing, blogging, or otherwise endorsing any candidate running for political office. The law states, in effect, that no one acting on behalf of the nonprofit can intervene directly or indirectly in the election process by endorsing a political candidate. Any post that speaks favorably about one candidate, even in a religious context, can be construed as indirect intervention in the election process. While journalists are presently exempt from this provision, bloggers and forum-members are not. 12. You agree, through your use of this service, that you will not use this site to post any material which is knowingly false and/or defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, sexually oriented, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy, or otherwise in violation of any law. 13. You will not use this site to solicit the sale of any product, service or website. You will not use this site to promote a money making venture or contest. If appropriate, you may post a link to your personal website or to your business on your profile, in your forum signature, and you make create one post in the web link section of the forum. Do not post any link or discuss any business, service, or website that violates any rule of Mormon Hub. Mormon Hub is not responsible for the content of any site linked on Mormon Hub. Consequences to these rules could result in the following, and are determined on a case by case basis. Anything that an Administrator or Moderator determines is more than just an infraction of the rules, will result in immediate banning from the site and/or legal action: First infraction will result in a warning and a message from a moderator on what rule was broken. Second infraction will result in a one week suspension followed by a two week moderator post approval Third infraction will result in banned from the site for good. Any topic, message, video, music, image, or other upload or submission to the site that breaks any rules will be deleted. Please remember that we are not responsible for anything posted or uploaded. We do not vouch for or warrant the accuracy, completeness or usefulness of any message or upload. We are not responsible for the contents of any message, video, image, post or upload. The messages express the views of the author of the message, not necessarily the views of Mormon Hub , More Good Foundation, or The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Any user who feels that a posted message is objectionable is encouraged to contact the Administration immediately by Private Message, Email, or Report a Post. We will make every effort to remove objectionable messages and uploads within a reasonable time frame, if we determine that removal is necessary. Mormon Hub Terms of Use Agreement January 8, 2008 Mormon Hub is a social networking service that allows Members to create unique personal profiles online in order to find and communicate with old and new friends. Mormon Hub refers to "Mormon Hub or its proprietors." The services offered by Mormon Hub ("Mormon Hub" or "we") include the Mormon Hub website (the "Mormon Hub Website"), the Mormon Hub Internet messaging service, and any other features, content, or applications offered from time to time by Mormon Hub in connection with the Mormon Hub Website (collectively, the "Mormon Hub Services"). The Mormon Hub Services are hosted in the U.S. This Terms of Use Agreement ("Agreement") sets forth the legally binding terms for your use of the Mormon Hub Services. By using the Mormon Hub Services, you agree to be bound by this Agreement, whether you are a "Visitor" (which means that you simply browse the Mormon Hub Website) or you are a "Member" (which means that you have registered with Mormon Hub). The term "User" refers to a Visitor or a Member. You are only authorized to use the Mormon Hub Services (regardless of whether your access or use is intended) if you agree to abide by all applicable laws and to this Agreement. Please read this Agreement carefully and save it. If you do not agree with it, you should leave the Mormon Hub Website and discontinue use of the Mormon Hub Services immediately. If you wish to become a Member, communicate with other Members and make use of the Mormon Hub Services, you must read this Agreement and indicate your acceptance during the Registration process. This Agreement includes Mormon Hub's policy for acceptable use of the Mormon Hub Services and Content posted on the Mormon Hub Website, your rights, obligations and restrictions regarding your use of the Mormon Hub Services and Mormon Hub's Privacy Policy. In order to participate in certain Mormon Hub Services, you may be notified that you are required to download software or content and/or agree to additional terms and conditions. Unless otherwise provided by the additional terms and conditions applicable to the Mormon Hub Services in which you choose to participate, those additional terms are hereby incorporated into this Agreement.  Mormon Hub may modify this Agreement from time to time and such modification shall be effective upon posting by Mormon Hub on the Mormon Hub Website. You agree to be bound to any changes to this Agreement when you use the Mormon Hub Services after any such modification is posted. It is therefore important that you review this Agreement regularly to ensure you are updated as to any changes. Please choose carefully the information you post on Mormon Hub and that you provide to other Users. You may NOT include any of the following information anywhere on Mormon Hub, including private messages: telephone numbers, street addresses, last names, and any photographs containing nudity, or obscene, lewd, excessively violent, harassing, sexually explicit or otherwise objectionable subject matter. Email addresses should NEVER be posted to the general public. Despite this prohibition, information provided by other Mormon Hub Members (for instance, in their Profile) may contain inaccurate, inappropriate, offensive or sexually explicit material, products or services, and Mormon Hub assumes no responsibility or liability for this material. If you become aware of misuse of the Mormon Hub Services by any person, please contact Mormon Hub or click on the "Report Inappropriate Content" link at the bottom of any Mormon Hub page. Mormon Hub reserves the right, in its sole discretion, to moderate, reject, refuse to post or remove any posting (including private messages) by you, or to restrict, suspend, or terminate your access to all or any part of the Mormon Hub Services at any time, for any or no reason, with or without prior notice, and without liability. Mormon Hub expressly reserves the right to remove your profile and/or restrict, suspend, or terminate your access to any part of Mormon Hub Services if Mormon Hub determines, in its sole discretion, that you pose a threat to Mormon Hub and/or its Users. Mormon Hub reserves the right to ask a member to change their username if it is found to be offensive or can be perceived as offensive. Due to the sacredness, this would include any usernames that include, Jesus, Christ, God, Lord, names of Prophets, General authorities etc. The names of personal or business websites, blogs, etc. to promote said sites is also prohibited. Using names of political figures or party affiliation is also prohibited. 1. Eligibility. Use of and Membership in the Mormon Hub Services is void where prohibited. By using the Mormon Hub Services, you represent and warrant that (a) all registration information you submit is truthful and accurate; ( B) you will maintain the accuracy of such information; © you are 14 years of age or older; and (d) your use of the Mormon Hub Services does not violate any applicable law or regulation. Your profile may be deleted and your Membership may be terminated without warning, if we believe that you are under 13 years of age. 2. Term. This Agreement shall remain in full force and effect while you use the Mormon Hub Services or are a Member. You may terminate your Membership at any time, for any reason, emailing an admin. Mormon Hub may terminate your Membership at any time, without warning. Even after Membership is terminated, this Agreement will remain in effect, including sections 5-17. 3. Password. When you sign up to become a Member, you will also be asked to choose a password. You are entirely responsible for maintaining the confidentiality of your password. You agree not to use the account, username, or password of another Member at any time or to disclose your password to any third party. You agree to notify Mormon Hub immediately if you suspect any unauthorized use of your account or access to your password. You are solely responsible for any and all use of your account. 4. Non-commercial Use by Members. The Mormon Hub Services are for the personal use of Members only and may not be used in connection with any commercial endeavors except those that are specifically endorsed or approved by Mormon Hub. Illegal and/or unauthorized use of the Mormon Hub Services, including collecting usernames and/or email addresses of Members by electronic or other means for the purpose of sending unsolicited email or unauthorized framing of or linking to the Mormon Hub Website is prohibited. Commercial advertisements, affiliate links, and other forms of solicitation may be removed from Member profiles without notice and may result in termination of Membership privileges. Appropriate legal action will be taken for any illegal or unauthorized use of the Mormon Hub Services. 5. Proprietary Rights in Content on Mormon Hub. Mormon Hub does not claim any ownership rights in the text, files, images, photos, video, sounds, musical works, works of authorship, or any other materials (collectively, "Content") that you post to the Mormon Hub Services. After posting your Content to the Mormon Hub Services, you continue to retain all ownership rights in such Content, and you continue to have the right to use your Content in any way you choose. By displaying or publishing ("posting") any Content on or through the Mormon Hub Services, you hereby grant to Mormon Hub a limited license to use, modify, publicly perform, publicly display, reproduce, and distribute such Content solely on and through the Mormon Hub Services.
      Without this license, Mormon Hub would be unable to provide the Mormon Hub Services. For example, without the right to modify Member Content, Mormon Hub would not be able to digitally compress music files that Members submit or otherwise format Content to satisfy technical requirements, and without the right to publicly perform Member Content, Mormon Hub could not allow Users to listen to music posted by Members. The license you grant to Mormon Hub is non-exclusive (meaning you are free to license your Content to anyone else in addition to Mormon Hub), fully-paid and royalty-free (meaning that Mormon Hub is not required to pay you for the use on the Mormon Hub Services of the Content that you post), sublicensable (so that Mormon Hub is able to use its affiliates and subcontractors such as Internet content delivery networks to provide the Mormon Hub Services), and worldwide (because the Internet and the Mormon Hub Services are global in reach). 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Mormon Hub makes no warranties, express or implied, as to the Content or to the accuracy and reliability of the Content or any material or information that you transmit to other Members.   7. Content/Activity Prohibited. The following is a partial list of the kind of Content that is illegal or prohibited to post on or through the Mormon Hub Services.Mormon Hub reserves the right to investigate and take appropriate legal action against anyone who, in Mormon Hub's sole discretion, violates this provision, including without limitation, removing the offending communication from the Mormon Hub Services and terminating the Membership of such violators. Prohibited Content includes, but is not limited to Content that, in the sole discretion of Mormon Hub: is patently offensive and promotes racism, bigotry, hatred or physical harm of any kind against any group or individual; harasses or advocates harassment of another person; exploits people in a sexual or violent manner; contains nudity, violence, or offensive subject matter or contains a link to an adult website; solicits personal information from anyone; provides any telephone numbers, street addresses, last names, URLs or email addresses; promotes information that you know is false or misleading or promotes illegal activities or conduct that is abusive, threatening, obscene, defamatory or libelous; promotes an illegal or unauthorized copy of another person's copyrighted work, such as providing pirated computer programs or links to them, providing information to circumvent manufacture-installed copy-protect devices, or providing pirated music or links to pirated music files; involves the transmission of "junk mail," "chain letters," or unsolicited mass mailing, instant messaging, "spimming," or "spamming"; contains restricted or password only access pages or hidden pages or images (those not linked to or from another accessible page); furthers or promotes any criminal activity or enterprise or provides instructional information about illegal activities including, but not limited to making or buying illegal weapons, violating someone's privacy, or providing or creating computer viruses; solicits passwords or personal identifying information for commercial or unlawful purposes from other Users; involves commercial activities and/or sales without our prior written consent such as contests, sweepstakes, barter, advertising, or pyramid schemes; includes a photograph of another person that you have posted without that person's consent; or uses sexually suggestive imagery or any other unfair, misleading or deceptive Content intended to draw traffic to the profile.
      The following is a partial list of the kind of activity that is illegal or prohibited on the Mormon Hub Website and through your use of the Mormon Hub Services. Mormon Hub reserves the right to investigate and take appropriate legal action against anyone who, in Mormon Hub's sole discretion, violates this provision, including without limitation, reporting you to law enforcement authorities. Prohibited activity includes, but is not limited to: criminal or tortuous activity, including child pornography, fraud, trafficking in obscene material, drug dealing, gambling, harassment, stalking, spamming, spimming, sending of viruses or other harmful files, copyright infringement, patent infringement, or theft of trade secrets; advertising to, or solicitation of, any Member to buy or sell any products or services through the Mormon Hub Services. You may not transmit any chain letters or junk email to other Members. It is also a violation of these rules to use any information obtained from the Mormon Hub Services in order to contact, advertise to, solicit, or sell to any Member without their prior explicit consent. In order to protect our Members from such advertising or solicitation, Mormon Hub reserves the right to restrict the number of emails which a Member may send to other Members in any 24-hour period to a number which Mormon Hub deems appropriate in its sole discretion. If you breach this Agreement and send unsolicited bulk email, instant messages or other unsolicited communications of any kind through the Mormon Hub Services, you acknowledge that you will have caused substantial harm to Mormon Hub, but that the amount of such harm would be extremely difficult to ascertain. As a reasonable estimation of such harm, you agree to pay Mormon Hub $50 for each such unsolicited email or other unsolicited communication you send through the Mormon Hub Services; covering or obscuring the banner advertisements on your personal profile page, or any Mormon Hub page via HTML/CSS or any other means; any automated use of the system, such as using scripts to add friends or send comments or messages; interfering with, disrupting, or creating an undue burden on the Mormon Hub Services or the networks or services connected to the Mormon Hub Services; attempting to impersonate another Member or person; copying the code for your Mormon Hub Player and embedding it into other profiles or asking other Members to embed it into their profiles; using the account, username, or password of another Member at any time or disclosing your password to any third party or permitting any third party to access your account; selling or otherwise transferring your profile; using any information obtained from the Mormon Hub Services in order to harass, abuse, or harm another person; displaying an advertisement on your profile, or accepting payment or anything of value from a third person in exchange for your performing any commercial activity on or through the Mormon Hub Services on behalf of that person, such as placing commercial content on your profile, posting blogs or bulletins with a commercial purpose, selecting a profile with a commercial purpose as one of your "Top" friends, or sending private messages with a commercial purpose; or using the Mormon Hub Services in a manner inconsistent with any and all applicable laws and regulations.   8. 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Without limiting the foregoing, if you believe that your work has been copied and posted on the Mormon Hub Services in a way that constitutes copyright infringement, please provide our Copyright Agent with the following information: (i) an electronic or physical signature of the person authorized to act on behalf of the owner of the copyright interest; (ii) a description of the copyrighted work that you claim has been infringed; (iii) a description of where the material that you claim is infringing is located on the Mormon Hub Services; (iv) your address, telephone number, and email address; (v) a written statement by you that you have a good faith belief that the disputed use is not authorized by the copyright owner, its agent, or the law; (vi) a statement by you, made under penalty of perjury, that the above information in your notice is accurate and that you are the copyright owner or authorized to act on the copyright owner's behalf. 9. Member Disputes. 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    • rpframe

      IMPORTANT!! -- Login Issues   09/12/17

      TL;DR; In order to fix login issues, a lot of people will have to reset their password. As of now, if you are unable to login, please attempt a "Forgot Password"/"Password Reset" (check your spam folder) and if that doesn't work then feel free to Contact Us, for help and please check back on this post for any status updates and FAQs as we go through this process. FAQ:
      [Reserved Space]
      Firstly, I'd like to apologize on behalf of MormonHub for the frustration of the login system. There is a lot of cool things we could do with the login system, and having the logins synced up between our forum system and our front end system has been nice, but for multiple reasons (not just the current login issues), we have decided to move back to the earlier login system. While I would love to be able to migrate everyone's current passwords back, but the systems are just not compatible that way. So a large number of users will need to do a password reset. We realize that we forced everyone to do this on the move to the new system, and we sincerely apologize to everyone that will have to do it again. The Login System has now been swapped over. Give us a little bit of time to work out kinks in the system (will post updates here). If you are unable to login anymore, then please perform a password reset (check spam folder) and if that fails and we don't have any acknowledgement of problems on this post (No known problems at this time), then feel free to contact us (keeping in mind that there are a lot of you and very few of us).
changed

Setting limits, personal vs. borrowed beliefs.

Personal limits  

23 members have voted

  1. 1. Your current beliefs

    • I am a true, Blue, temple-recommend carrying, active Mormon.
      16
    • LDS member, who agrees with around 80% of what the church teaches
      2
    • Member who agrees with around 50% of what the church teaches
      2
    • I am a member who agrees with less than half of what the church teaches, but still see it as a valuable community
      1
    • I am a non-member, who respects the LDS church as a good group of people
      2
    • I am a non-member who is not impressed by the LDS church
      0
  2. 2. Faith in church leaders: Select everything you would follow if an authority figure in the church (such as the apostle or prophet) commanded you. Multiple choice.

    • Select if you would exclude a child of LGBTQ family from participating in youth activities (of your own accord, or by direction of leadership)
      3
    • Select if you would send your own child into a PPI interview after reports from other parents of intrusive, embarrassing, and sexually explicit interview questions.
      5
    • Select if you would have upheld and remained faithful in the church during times of ethnic priesthood bans.
      11
    • Select if you would participate in either polyandry or polygamy if commanded to do so by church leadership.
      11
    • Select if you would forgive and trust a youth leader with your children who had been previously convicted of serious transgressions, but was later pardoned by church.
      3
    • Select if you believe reading scriptures, saying prayers, and going to the temple will bring protection to you and your children.
      14
    • Select if you believe spirits will be eternally separated into different degrees of glory, and you believe this segregation will lead to happiness for all.
      10
    • Select if you believe eternal progression will eventually bring all spirits to the same level of glory, and that this will lead to happiness for all.
      11
    • Select if you believe all trials refine and strengthen those who go through them.
      8
    • Select if you believe no one is tested beyond their limit of endurance.
      10
    • Select if you believe the LDS church to be the only current organization on earth led by God.
      11
    • Select if you believe active members of the LDS church to be the most loving, charitable, humble, and faithful group of people on the earth.
      5
  3. 3. Members: If church leaders asked you to believe in or do something that went against your conscience, or went against what you felt spiritually guided to believe -

    • I trust my own consistence, and personal revelation over revelation given to church leaders.
      15
    • I trust church leadership above and beyond my own personal revelation and conscience.
      8


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This has been a rough year for me, I will not go into detail, suffice it to say a few high priests in the church (one of which will now spend the rest of their life in jail) have caused me to question priesthood authority, and therefore the church's authority.   I started by hating god, I have now moved on to redefining my beliefs (no longer believe god to be all-powerful) and hating some (not all) aspects of the church. I have had spiritual experiences within the church that I will not deny - I never received a witness of Joseph Smith or the Book of Mormon, I did receive a witness of the plan of salvation, of the premortal life, the reality of the afterlife.  I still think most people in the church are wonderful, well-meaning people, but I am now a "cafeteria" style Momrmon, taking some things, leaving others.  

Just curious, this seems to be a place with quite a few TBM Mormons, putting a poll out there to you to answer and discuss.

What is your limit to following or agreeing with church leadership?

Thanks to anyone willing to participate and contribute their answers.  

 

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I don't think this post is going to last too long in the LDS Gospel Discussion forum.

But while it's here I have only one thing to say.  God lives, Christ atoned for my sins, Joseph Smith is a true prophet, the Book of Mormon is true, and the LDS Church is the church of God on earth.  Whatever I do or don't do in the exercise of my faith does not change these truths.

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17 minutes ago, changed said:

This has been a rough year for me, I will not go into detail, suffice it to say a few high priests in the church (one of which will now spend the rest of their life in jail) have caused me to question priesthood authority, and therefore the church's authority.   I started by hating god, I have now moved on to redefining my beliefs (no longer believe god to be all-powerful) and hating some (not all) aspects of the church. I have had spiritual experiences within the church that I will not deny - I never received a witness of Joseph Smith or the Book of Mormon, I did receive a witness of the plan of salvation, of the premortal life, the reality of the afterlife.  I still think most people in the church are wonderful, well-meaning people, but I am now a "cafeteria" style Momrmon, taking some things, leaving others.  

Just curious, this seems to be a place with quite a few TBM Mormons, putting a poll out there to you to answer and discuss.

What is your limit to following or agreeing with church leadership?

Thanks to anyone willing to participate and contribute their answers.  

 

I'm praying for you bud. Just know that. Hope things work out for you. 

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3 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

I don't think this post is going to last too long in the LDS Gospel Discussion forum.

But while it's here I have only one thing to say.  God lives, Christ atoned for my sins, Joseph Smith is a true prophet, the Book of Mormon is true, and the LDS Church is the church of God on earth.  Whatever I do or don't do in the exercise of my faith does not change these truths.

 

I know some of what is above are hard questions, but they are question I wished I would have asked myself before going through what I have went through.   It's better to think ahead and have a plan, then to suddenly find yourself in a bad situation with no plan and no preparation.  

Especially the last poll question - if you are asked to do something against your conscience, against your own personal spiritual guidance, who do you trust more, yourself, or the church?  Borrowed light, or personal revelation?  I think that is an especially important question to decide on, am curious of answers and justifications.  

 

 

 

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@changed

I just want to clarify a commonly misunderstood concept.

Question: Select if you believe no one is tested beyond their limit of endurance.

this is in reference to 1 Corinthians 10:14, I  assume, which says “There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.“ this does NOT mean that there are temptations out there that God will not put upon us because we cannot bare them. It means that no matter what temptation we face, no matter how difficult, A way to escape will be provided.

So have comfort in that no trial is too much and you can get through. God has provided a way.

I am a full follower of the church, however I won’t always obey local priesthood if they don’t have stewardship over me. An old bishop once snapped at me cause I was a priest and took the sacrament with my left hand. He said “I need to set a better example”. I didn’t listen to him (mostly because I was an active 17 year old and had never once heard such a suggestion from apostles or prophets).

Edited by Fether

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25 minutes ago, changed said:

Especially the last poll question - if you are asked to do something against your conscience, against your own personal spiritual guidance, who do you trust more, yourself, or the church?  Borrowed light, or personal revelation?  I think that is an especially important question to decide on, am curious of answers and justifications.  

That last one was a question which I could not answer because my option was not available.  And I guess that is the basis of my answers for all the other questions.

I would have answered the first question with the very first answer: I'm a true blue...  But when we get to the last question, neither was the right option.  The first option says,"I'm always right regardless of what the prophets say."  The second option says,"They're always right even if you don't get any confirmation."  Both are wrong.  We have to have both.  It's not one or the other.  Both must align or we simply don't know that it is right.  And without that, we don't move forward.

There have been teachings or practices that I did not receive confirmation on.  I was sometimes in disagreement with them.  But instead of simply thinking,"Well, they just don't know what they're talking about," I kept praying, pondering, studying, asking questions, and reasoning.  All the while I plead with the Lord saying,"I don't understand." While in this phase of non-confirmation, I did what I could to NOT move forward with any decision that would require going against either my conscience or the prophets' words.  I tried to walk the neutral ground until I could receive confirmation.  Some things, today, I have yet to receive confirmation on.  For many other issues, I have eventually received confirmation.  And I moved forward.

Edited by Carborendum

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Bad things happen in all organizations, groups, clubs, religions, schools, etc. It almost seems as if this is post pointed at blaming the LDS culture for a series of unfortunate events. The devil works his devious crafts in all walks of life including the LDS culture. The truth of it is in the strength, or lack thereof, of individual people and how close or far away from the spirit they are. If all LDS obeyed all the commandments and were true disciples of Jesus Christ we wouldnt have any problems. The reality though is that we are human, we make mistakes and in todays world it doesnt take much doing with your guard down to make very bad choices which end up resulting in grave conclusions. 

The church runs a fine balance with its policies and guidelines in order to protect people on the one hand yet allow for the necessary steps of repentance to work its course on the other. The call for greater, stronger leadership, more resistant to temptation is paramount more today than ever before under all the heavens that ever were! Remember that Satan works harder to destroy souls in Gods church than any other institution on the whole earth. You will find great spiritual leaders in the church but you will probably also see the downfall of some of them because their guard was let down ever so slightly.

Please dont lose the faith.

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20 minutes ago, Fether said:

@changed

I just want to clarify a commonly misunderstood concept.

Question: Select if you believe no one is tested beyond their limit of endurance.

this is in reference to 1 Corinthians 10:14, I  assume, which says “There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.“ this does NOT mean that there are temptations out there that God will not put upon us because we cannot bare them. It means that no matter what temptation we face, no matter how difficult, A way to escape will be provided.

So have comfort in that no trial is too much and you can get through. God has provided a way.

I am a full follower of the church, however I won’t always obey local priesthood if they don’t have stewardship over me. An old bishop once snapped at me cause I was a priest and took the sacrament with my left hand. He said “I need to set a better example”. I didn’t listen to him (mostly because I was an active 17 year old and had never once heard such a suggestion from apostles or prophets).

That is an interesting scripture, I was curious about "trials" rather than "temptations", trials being a little different.  Consider the situations you see on the news, refugees, those who go insane for what they have been through, if all these experiences will be refining to them?  I feel I have not been refined by what I have gone through this year, it has broken me, left me without feeling, numb, hollow, with anxiety disorders - it has made me more aware of others suffering as well though.

10 And when Amulek saw the pains of the women and children who were consuming in the fire, he also was pained; and he said unto Alma: How can we witness this awful scene?...

If God commanded you not to help, not to intervene, to instead avoid the situation, would you be content to stand, and watch?  Everyone is avoiding me now, not for what I have done, but for the situation I am now in.

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1 minute ago, changed said:

That is an interesting scripture, I was curious about "trials" rather than "temptations", trials being a little different.  Consider the situations you see on the news, refugees, those who go insane for what they have been through, if all these experiences will be refining to them?  I feel I have not been refined by what I have gone through this year, it has broken me, left me without feeling, numb, hollow, with anxiety disorders - it has made me more aware of others suffering as well though.

10 And when Amulek saw the pains of the women and children who were consuming in the fire, he also was pained; and he said unto Alma: How can we witness this awful scene?...

If God commanded you not to help, not to intervene, to instead avoid the situation, would you be content to stand, and watch?  Everyone is avoiding me now, not for what I have done, but for the situation I am now in.

I know what the bolded feels like.  Many on the board do.  But the "way out" that Fether alluded to is still there for you.  The healing power of the Atonement of Christ is there for you.  And it really can work miracles.

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3 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

That last one was a question which I could not answer because my option was not available.  And I guess that is the basis of my answers for all the other questions.

I would have answered the first question with the very first answer: I'm a true blue...  But when we get to the last question, neither was the right option.  The first option says,"I'm always right regardless of what the prophets say."  The second option says,"They're always right even if you don't get any confirmation."  Both are wrong.  We have to have both.  It's not one or the other.  Both must align or we simply don't know that it is right.  And without that, we don't move forward.

There have been teachings or practices that I did not receive confirmation on.  I was sometimes in disagreement with them.  But instead of simply thinking,"Well, they just don't know what they're talking about," I kept praying, pondering, studying, asking questions, and reasoning.  All the while I plead with the Lord saying,"I don't understand." While in this phase of non-confirmation, I did what I could to NOT move forward with any decision that would require going against either my conscience or the prophets' words.  I tried to walk the neutral ground until I could receive confirmation.  Some things, today, I have yet to receive confirmation on.  For many other issues, I have eventually received confirmation.  And I moved forward.

 

Not moving forward is an action... I'll give you the same question and situation as well - 

10 And when Amulek saw the pains of the women and children who were consuming in the fire, he also was pained; and he said unto Alma: How can we witness this awful scene?...

If God commanded you not to help, not to intervene, to instead avoid the situation, would you be ok with remaining silent, not doing anything, not moving forward?  Consider it to be some sort of emergency situation where waiting and in-action is contributing to abuse, pain, and suffering to women and children.

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1 minute ago, Carborendum said:

I know what the bolded feels like.  Many on the board do.  But the "way out" that Fether alluded to is still there for you.  The healing power of the Atonement of Christ is there for you.  And it really can work miracles.

Thanks Carborendum, I'm trying to get in the Christmas spirit, I really am.  I have a much easier time coming to terms with who Jesus is than with who god is.  I'm trying to start the healing process with being ok with Jesus.  Not really so impressed with god right now though, not so excited with the prospect of a kingdom involving sitting and watching pain and suffering, cannot stomach the idea of eternal segregation, like some caste system where the plan fails to help so many spirits.

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2 minutes ago, changed said:

 

Not moving forward is an action... I'll give you the same question and situation as well - 

10 And when Amulek saw the pains of the women and children who were consuming in the fire, he also was pained; and he said unto Alma: How can we witness this awful scene?...

If God commanded you not to help, not to intervene, to instead avoid the situation, would you be ok with remaining silent, not doing anything, not moving forward?  Consider it to be some sort of emergency situation where waiting and in-action is contributing to abuse, pain, and suffering to women and children.

I think it is important to know, in the example of Alma, that death is not the end, it isn’t even a terrible thing, but just a transition from one state to another. I have met countless people that lost their faith because of a premature death. To God this death isn’t bad because he sees and understands all. Us as mortals lack both that sight and understanding so it is difficult for us to see death as anything but bad. So if we lack faith, death will always only be negative.

I don’t have much advice to give because I don’t know the context of your struggles.

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47 minutes ago, changed said:

 

I know some of what is above are hard questions, but they are question I wished I would have asked myself before going through what I have went through.   It's better to think ahead and have a plan, then to suddenly find yourself in a bad situation with no plan and no preparation.  

 

They are not hard questions at all.  "Think ahead and have a plan"... that's kinda weird way to approach Faith.  I have one plan - Follow Christ.

 

47 minutes ago, changed said:

Especially the last poll question - if you are asked to do something against your conscience, against your own personal spiritual guidance, who do you trust more, yourself, or the church?  Borrowed light, or personal revelation?  I think that is an especially important question to decide on, am curious of answers and justifications.  

 

I trust neither myself nor the Church.  I trust God.  Do I believe that President Monson is the true prophet of God?  Yes.  Therefore, if President Monson says something that is contrary to my knowledge, I would bring the matter to the Lord and have Him guide me that I may understand why He asked this of the prophet.

It's really that simple in my viewpoint.  What makes this complicated is whether I have the necessary faith, humility, and worthiness to recognize God's voice.

P.S.  if the prophet tells me to do something contrary to God's will and I follow, the sin is not on me - it is on the prophet.  If the prophet tells me to do God's will and I don't follow, the sin is on my head.  Therefore, I prefer to follow the prophet who is God's voice on earth until God gives me a spiritual epiphany that the prophet (and that goes with the entire Church) is not God's church.  But, as God gave me a spiritual epiphany that this is the true Church, it's highly unlikely that He would now tell me different.

Edited by anatess2

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17 minutes ago, changed said:

Not moving forward is an action... I'll give you the same question and situation as well - 

10 And when Amulek saw the pains of the women and children who were consuming in the fire, he also was pained; and he said unto Alma: How can we witness this awful scene?...

If God commanded you not to help, not to intervene, to instead avoid the situation, would you be ok with remaining silent, not doing anything, not moving forward?  Consider it to be some sort of emergency situation where waiting and in-action is contributing to abuse, pain, and suffering to women and children.

If you've had a chance to look at other threads, I addressed a similar question already.

But the inaction you speak of may be different than what I was speaking of.  The example of Alma and Amulek was also a very different scenario than I was speaking of.

In the case of Alma and Amulek, I perceive that you've been told to not tell the police about an abhorrent act carried out by someone simply because they repented and deserve to be forgiven.  I disagree with that.  If they committed a horrible crime, the authorities need to be told.  Forgiveness is a completely different concept and process.  It has nothing to do with someone being punished for a crime.

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I didn't take the poll because many of the answers fail to include guidance from the Spirit and others include what are, to my mind, absurd.  They're the equivalent of the "Have you stopped beating your wife?" question - to answer is to give credence to the idea that you were ever beating her in the first place.  Others in this thread have addressed the poll well.

From my personal perspective, without a testimony of Joseph Smith as a prophet, the First Vision as a reality, and the truth of the Book of Mormon (, Doctrine & Covenants, and Pearl of Great Price), it would be all but impossible to remain in the Church when challenges to your activity therein come (regardless of whether the challenges relate directly to the Church or not).  The simple fact is, challenges take time to deal with, activity in the Church demands whopping tons of time (not just callings and meetings, but simply living the gospel), therefore, when challenges come and you start feeling like you need to take time away from other things in order to deal with them, if you don't have a firm conviction (testimony, conversion) that the Church is true and that your activity therein brings you blessings you cannot live without, Church activity will be decreased (or dropped) to make time to deal with the challenge.

(NOTE: "challenge" could be anything, good or bad - maybe it's a horrible illness, maybe it's loss of a good job, maybe it's a really convincing anti or even an uncomfortable truth, maybe it's a demanding calling or an uninspired (or worse) leader / member, maybe it's someone offering you season tickets to a sport played on Sunday, maybe it's the new motor home begging you to spend your weekends on the road - whatever, those are all challenges.)

(ETA: When I say "time", I of course mean everything that's put into that time as well - talents, energy, money, emotion, etc.)

Edited by zil

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Huh.  I just noticed (more consciously) the title of the thread.  My thoughts on that:

  • Personal vs Borrowed Beliefs
    • First, this implies those are the only two kinds.  That doesn't seem right.  Not even sure they're both valid.
    • My uncertainty may come from the fact that I think "belief" is a weak word and a weak state (I believe it would be better for me to avoid junk food.  Guess what?  I eat junk food anyway.  Weak thing, belief.  Faith is better.  Apparently I don't have sufficient faith as it relates to junk food.)
    • Next, this "vs" thing implies the two types are inherently separate, but I don't think they need to be (a belief learned from others can become one's own - or really, isn't it your own the minute you decide to "borrow" it?)
    • Not sure I believe in "borrowed" beliefs anyway - seems like a bad idea, "borrow" implies temporary and that you'll return it.  It's not a finite commodity which can be lent, though a belief can be chosen because one trusts another who believes...
    • Anywho, this pairing strikes me as problematic.  I mention it because I think faith, testimony, and conversion start and grow or fail with us considering what things really mean and what we understand / think of what they really mean.

Maybe the point of the OP would better be expressed in terms of where does one put their trust: self, personal revelation, the Church, a subset of Church leaders, scripture, God...?  Although question two in the poll is more along the lines of testing the limits of one's trust in Church leaders.

  • Setting limits - this strikes me as a dangerous thing when describing one's relationship with God.  The implication being that I'm going to set limits to that relationship - that sounds self-destructive to me.  If there are limits to something eternal and infinite, then I think it only makes sense for God to set them.
    • I suppose the OP is talking about limits in relation to the Church, but as @anatess2 pointed out, our focus should be on our relationship with God.  Then our correct relationship with the Church becomes clear(er).  I see the Church very much as a tool to help us come to God.  (That may be over-simplification, but hopefully it makes the point regarding the relation between the two.)

And, again, from the OP and poll, it seems more about setting limits in relation to Church leaders (and members?), and perhaps one's own participation in the Church.

I suppose I'm suggesting that I see an inherent need to shift perspective.

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Select if you would exclude a child of LGBTQ family from participating in youth activities (of your own accord, or by direction of leadership)

It would depend on the reason.  Nobody is excluded because of their family.  I can personally attest to that, coming from an inactive mom and a very outspoken anti-religious anti-mormon father.

 

Select if you would send your own child into a PPI interview after reports from other parents of intrusive, embarrassing, and sexually explicit interview questions.

Here's some good reading. http://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeterson/2017/12/former-lds-bishop-calls-church-leaders-stop-interviewing-teens-sexual-practices.html

 

Select if you would have upheld and remained faithful in the church during times of ethnic priesthood bans.

Here's some good reading.  https://www.lds.org/topics/race-and-the-priesthood?lang=eng

 

Select if you would participate in either polyandry or polygamy if commanded to do so by church leadership.

Dang I'm glad that's not a question for any of us in the last 100 years.  Hope I'm never asked to do something like that.  I would probably struggle mightilly.

 

Select if you would forgive and trust a youth leader with your children who had been previously convicted of serious transgressions, but was later pardoned by church.

Depends on the serious transgression.  Not sure what you mean by "pardoned by the church" - the church is a religious organization and has no power to extend a legal pardon for anything.  It's most serious punishment it can possibly levy on any human, is to not let them be a member. 

The church takes steps to protect the flock, including permanent annotations on records to alert bishops that someone has been convicted of child abuse, etc.  Such folks don't get put in callings where they deal with the youth.  I have personal experience in contributing to someone's disciplinary council who had been convicted of aggravated child sexual abuse, and can speak to the seriousness the church takes their responsibility over the youth.

If you're talking about a member who got a tattoo, or maybe broke a law or something in the past, then if the leadership knows about it and extended the call, I'd be ok with it.

 

Select if you believe reading scriptures, saying prayers, and going to the temple will bring protection to you and your children.

Not sure what you mean by "protection".  I sure hope to raise them right, because instilling morals/ethics/beliefs/practices in them should keep them out of all sorts of gutters and whorehouses and prisons and whatnot.  Don't you believe that?

 

Select if you believe spirits will be eternally separated into different degrees of glory, and you believe this segregation will lead to happiness for all.

I don't know all the details or what that will mean, but yes, I do indeed place all my faith and trust in a God who promises to have a perfect blend of mercy and justice.  Earthly attempts to do it tend to stink - yes indeed - I am literally betting my entire life that God does it better. 

 

Select if you believe eternal progression will eventually bring all spirits to the same level of glory, and that this will lead to happiness for all.

I don't know what that means.

 

Select if you believe all trials refine and strengthen those who go through them.

I don't believe that.  I believe all trials CAN refine/strengthen those.  Yes, all trials - from getting murdered, to being born with a birth defect that ends the life of a newborn after 1 hour.

 

Select if you believe no one is tested beyond their limit of endurance.

Agency, meaning a person's ability to choose.  I believe agency can be given up, or taken against a person's will.  If there is agency, there is choice, and there is accountability.  If there is no agency, there is no choice, no ability to sin, no accountability.  So basically, yes, I believe that.

 

Select if you believe the LDS church to be the only current organization on earth led by God.

Led by Christ, yes. 

 

Select if you believe active members of the LDS church to be the most loving, charitable, humble, and faithful group of people on the earth.

No.  I just believe we're AMONG the most loving/charitable/humble/faithful folks on earth.  We don't have a corner on this market by any stretch of the imagination.

Edited by NeuroTypical

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13 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

Select if you believe active members of the LDS church to be the most loving, charitable, humble, and faithful group of people on the earth.

No.  I just believe we're AMONG the most loving/charitable/humble/faithful folks on earth.  We don't have a corner on this market by any stretch of the imagination.

You sort of do, in my view. There are always exceptions but from what I've experienced no one is more compassionate, loving and tolerant than active LDS. Much more so than other religions. Granted it's a blanket statement and every religion has scumbags, criminals and perverts-but as a general rule LDS are really good people. 

I'd like to think that everyone has a strong enough testimony so that anything could happen to them in the church and they'd stay active but I know life isn't that simple. If something unfathomable happened to my kids or my wife it would be very, very hard for me (and others, probably) to remain active. 

Edited by MormonGator

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2 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

You sort of do, in my view. There are always exceptions but from what I've experienced no one is more compassionate, loving and tolerant than active LDS. Much more so than other religions. 

I really think it depends on where you live.  Living in the buckle of the bible belt, I have witnessed many individuals across the religious spectrum engage in compassionate and charitable acts equal to those of our LDS faith.

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Just now, eVa said:

I really think it depends on where you live.  Living in the buckle of the bible belt, I have witnessed many individuals across the religious spectrum engage in compassionate and charitable acts equal to those of our LDS faith.

Oh I agree. My statement was a generality and every religion has people capable of great warmth and kindness. 

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My resopnses are included in the poll, there are some real gotcha questions which I didn't answer. For example:

"Select if you would forgive and trust a youth leader with your children who had been previously convicted of serious transgressions, but was later pardoned by church."

You say convicted as in a crime? what crime? if a serious transgression what was it? the correct answer to this question is that it depends.  Any sort of sexual crime would be a deal breaker in my mind and a conviction of said crime would probably preclude the individual form close contact with youth as a by product of his release from prison or parole. "pardon" by the church will not supercede law. 

 

"Select if you believe reading scriptures, saying prayers, and going to the temple will bring protection to you and your children."

What kind of protection? like actual physical protection? from an accident or being struck by lightning? no one thinks that do they?

 

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3 hours ago, Carborendum said:

That last one was a question which I could not answer because my option was not available.  And I guess that is the basis of my answers for all the other questions.

I would have answered the first question with the very first answer: I'm a true blue...  But when we get to the last question, neither was the right option.  The first option says,"I'm always right regardless of what the prophets say."  The second option says,"They're always right even if you don't get any confirmation."  Both are wrong.  We have to have both.  It's not one or the other.  Both must align or we simply don't know that it is right.  And without that, we don't move forward.

There have been teachings or practices that I did not receive confirmation on.  I was sometimes in disagreement with them.  But instead of simply thinking,"Well, they just don't know what they're talking about," I kept praying, pondering, studying, asking questions, and reasoning.  All the while I plead with the Lord saying,"I don't understand." While in this phase of non-confirmation, I did what I could to NOT move forward with any decision that would require going against either my conscience or the prophets' words.  I tried to walk the neutral ground until I could receive confirmation.  Some things, today, I have yet to receive confirmation on.  For many other issues, I have eventually received confirmation.  And I moved forward.

I think this undermines one of the most instructive elements of the temple and Moses 5.  Adam when asked why he was offering sacrifice replied "I know not, save the Lord instructed me." For Adam, there was no walking the neutral ground until he could receive confirmation.

The resultant information that Adam received after he gave this answer is again classic gospel, classic expectations of the Savior, classic expectations of The Father and comes under the principle of "after the trial of your faith".  Adam was obedient understanding not but knowing in whom he has placed his faith.  He proved that he trusted the law giver and was rewarded with the fruits of faith or knowledge.

In the current age there is a false paradigm that we must know first and that we as individuals are capable of exercising that level of control over God's instructive manner. However, when examined closely what is perhaps being stated is that until I have a measure of proof I cannot act in faith.  This is a safe approach but will never garner sufficient commitment from us as individuals to develop the level of faith unto salvation that is required of our Father in Heaven.

I do understand that in this day and age there is cause for concern.  We have too many Denver Snuffers and such clamoring for our attention and proclaiming their knowledge of the correct path.  However, I think it is us that over complicate the process.  I cannot even see the need to pray about confirmations of such types of things when the simplest instruction of follow the prophets (hopefully we know which prophets) is sufficient to see us through the maturation processes of spiritual growth in a timely fashion.   

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