Changing Mind About Trump


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13 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

This?  You mean the summit in general?  I agree.  Sounds like lots of good things happened.  I remember an account of the Reagan/Gorbachev meeting in '86.  The person telling the story recounted how the meeting started very brusquely, even rudely, where Reagan sat there and recited off bullet point after bullet point of soviet aggression. Gorbachev finally had enough and interrupted him, and Reagan explained he wanted to be absolutely clear why there was a good guy and a bad guy in the room, and which one Gorbachev was.  As I listened to the things Trump said about Putin, right there with Putin sitting there, I harkened back.  It was good to hear.

But yeah, no, regardless of what Trump thought "this" was about, yes indeed, he sat there and badmouthed Democrats to the entire world with Putin standing right there.  Regardless of what else happened, that happened.  I want Trump to do more of the rest of "this", and not badmouth Americans on the world stage any more.  

 

That's a pipe dream of disastrous proportions when you got people like Jim Acosta and Hilary Clinton bashing Trump on the world stage IMPACTING negotiations.  This is the difference between Bush-era Republicans and Trump-era Republicans.  Trump-era Republicans are tired of the Bush style of allowing the opposition to bash America and its administration day-in and day-out, local stage or world stage and staying silent.  If you're not familiar with news outside of the USA - they are just as bad, if not worse, than what you hear on CNN in the Trump-bashing department and it is all sourced from American media and prominent American political people.

But now that Bush is not silent anymore and has joined the cacophony of criticisms against Trump, I am starting to wonder if that silence was because he had nothing to come back with because he is guilty of the accusations.

Edited by anatess2
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Guest Godless
51 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

In what way do you mean by "harsher language" and which ones are you calling your allies?  You mean calling out China for trade imbalances is harsh?   Do you consider China your ally?  Calling out Germany for their piddly defense spending while having direct gas lines to Russia is harsh?  Harsh against who?  Germany - the ally - but not Russia - the not-ally?  Calling out Trudeau for his backstab kindergarten trade maneuver is harsh because Canada is an ally but congratulating Putin for the World Cup is too nice because he's not-ally?

China - I actually have no problem with his tone towards China. I think raising tariffs against them is stupid, but ultimately China is not an ally.

Germany (and the rest of the EU) - I get that allies will have their differences. But calling the EU a foe, while saying the same of China and Russia in the same breath, is a bad look for international relations. Equating allies with hostile nations is damaging to those alliances. 

Canada/Mexico - It behooves us not to sour relations with our geographical neighbors if it can be avoided. Raising tariffs against those nations is going to hurt our economy badly. I hope you don't like canned soda (among other things), because it'll probably be getting more expensive soon. And that's really the beast of it all. Trump is burning bridges and creating tensions with our neighbors and allies while taking actions against them that will badly damage the American economy. I might be more willing to forgive his barbs if he was actually doing some positive things to give us a competitive edge in the global economy, but it seems he's intent on doing the opposite.

I don't care if Trump congratulates Putin for a successful World Cup. I care that there is increasing evidence that Russia interfered in our election and Trump won't address it. I wonder why that is?

Edited by Godless
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Guest MormonGator
6 minutes ago, Godless said:

China - I actually have no problem with his tone towards China. I think raising tariffs against them is stupid, but ultimately China is not an ally.

Germany (and the rest of the EU) - I get that allies will have their differences. But calling the EU a foe, while saying the same of China and Russia in the same breath, is a bad look for international relations. Equating allies with hostile nations is damaging to those alliances. 

Canada/Mexico - It behooves us not to sour relations with our geographical neighbors if it can be avoided. Raising tariffs against those nations is going to hurt our economy badly. I hope you don't like canned soda (among other things), because it'll probably be getting more expensive soon. And that's really the beast of it all. Trump is burning bridges and creating tensions with our neighbors and allies while taking actions against them that will badly damage the American economy. I might be more willing to forgive his barbs if he was actually doing some positive things to give us a competitive edge in the global economy, but it seems he's intent on doing the opposite.

I don't care if Trump congratulates Putin for a successful World Cup. I care that there is increasing evidence that Russia interfered in our election and Trump won't address it. I wonder why that is?

Raising tariffs is a really, really bad idea. I remember when republicans actually understood economics. 

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6 minutes ago, Sunday21 said:

I know little about American politics. I wonder what is going on with Trump and Russia. It is hard to understand Trump’s motives in being so supportive of Putin. 

I don't get it either. 

In fairness, Romney called a Russia a threat back in 2012 and democrats laughed at him. 

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16 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

I don't get it either. 

In fairness, Romney called a Russia a threat back in 2012 and democrats laughed at him. 

I don’t get the republican/Democrat positions. Of course they are antagonistic towards each other as they are both fighting against each other. But both parties seem very badly run. I don’t understand why either party behaves as they do.

The democratic party’s method of choosing candidates seems unlikely to produce a candidate that will appeal to democratic voters. The need for democratic candidates to produce set sums of money in order to be supported by their party would seem likely to lead to candidates with unsavoury reputations. And why don’t successful democrats like Obama do more to build up the party? And why not have a system in which the government registers voters instead of requiring voters to get registered? Sigh.

Oh well, it is not as though Canada doesn’t have a huge list of problems! Previously, Canada was happy with parties that supported trade, although I certainly understand why the supply management system in Canada raises eyebrows! Often republican presidents were pro free trade.

I am sad because my students will have a harder time finding jobs. All it takes is minor uncertainty and companies defer hiring recent grads. 😞 

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Guest Godless
21 minutes ago, Sunday21 said:

The democratic party’s method of choosing candidates seems unlikely to produce a candidate that will appeal to democratic voters. The need for democratic candidates to produce set sums of money in order to be supported by their party would seem likely to lead to candidates with unsavoury reputations. And why don’t successful democrats like Obama do more to build up the party? And why not have a system in which the government registers voters instead of requiring voters to get registered? Sigh.

You're preaching to the choir! Some states are already working towards government-automated voter registration, and I think one state (can't remember which) just signed it into law. So there's progress being made. But yes, Democrats will eventually have to rally behind something other than their hatred of Trump, and I don't have complete faith in their ability to do so.

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4 minutes ago, Godless said:

You're preaching to the choir! Some states are already working towards government-automated voter registration, and I think one state (can't remember which) just signed it into law. So there's progress being made. But yes, Democrats will eventually have to rally behind something other than their hatred of Trump, and I don't have complete faith in their ability to do so.

Thanks for telling me about the voter registration changes. I was approaching despair.

I wish the Democrats would get their act together. The whole world wishes that the Democrats would get their act together! Are foreigners allowed to contribute to American candidates? I suspect that foreign funding would be unpopular!

Trump might well be elected if he ran today. There is nothing, nothing so appealing to voters as a tax cut. 

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1 hour ago, Sunday21 said:

I know little about American politics. I wonder what is going on with Trump and Russia. It is hard to understand Trump’s motives in being so supportive of Putin. 

To be fair, there’s a big difference between what Trump says and what he does.  Now, I happen to believe that American interests are better served when we have a fundamentally honest president who says just what he means.  But, 60% of negotiations and 90% of press photo ops are BS anyways.  Look at what Trump’s State Department does with Russia whole he’s on the golf course—I’m rolling my eyes a lot, but not really outraged or worried.  This is no puppet regime we have here.  

19 minutes ago, Sunday21 said:

Are foreigners allowed to contribute to American candidates? 

The Clintonian view is that foreigners can give as much money as they want, so long as they don’t say anything on social media.  Buying elections = good.  Adding an international dimension to civic discourse = worthy of a special prosecutor.  :rolleyes: 

Edited by Just_A_Guy
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14 hours ago, Godless said:

China - I actually have no problem with his tone towards China. I think raising tariffs against them is stupid, but ultimately China is not an ally.

Germany (and the rest of the EU) - I get that allies will have their differences. But calling the EU a foe, while saying the same of China and Russia in the same breath, is a bad look for international relations. Equating allies with hostile nations is damaging to those alliances. 

Canada/Mexico - It behooves us not to sour relations with our geographical neighbors if it can be avoided. Raising tariffs against those nations is going to hurt our economy badly. I hope you don't like canned soda (among other things), because it'll probably be getting more expensive soon. And that's really the beast of it all. Trump is burning bridges and creating tensions with our neighbors and allies while taking actions against them that will badly damage the American economy. I might be more willing to forgive his barbs if he was actually doing some positive things to give us a competitive edge in the global economy, but it seems he's intent on doing the opposite.

I don't care if Trump congratulates Putin for a successful World Cup. I care that there is increasing evidence that Russia interfered in our election and Trump won't address it. I wonder why that is?

When did Trump call the EU a foe?

All the others is plain and simple - you think he is harsh to our allies because you don't agree with his stance on trade. 

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13 hours ago, Sunday21 said:

The whole world wishes that the Democrats would get their act together!

Perhaps you're not aware that Republicans and conservative Americans are a part of the whole world. The American Democratic Party is corrupt to its dark core. It is not redeemable. It sold its soul long ago for power. The Republican Party might be only two steps behind, but at least there are the bones of something worthwhile there. No such thing can be said about the party of the Democrats.

For the US and for the rest of the world, the very best possible thing that could happen to the Democrat Party is that it continue on its path to self-destruction unhindered by outside forces -- and needless to say, unhindered by holding any actual political positions of power.

Lord, come quickly.

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1 hour ago, Sunday21 said:

I wish Romney had been elected. Sigh. 

What? And deprive the world of four more years of the grace and presence of their worshipful savior and redeemer? Bite your tongue!

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14 hours ago, MormonGator said:

In fairness, Romney called a Russia a threat back in 2012 and democrats laughed at him.

The hypocrisy is nauseating, but hardly surprising. Romney was mocked by Lord Obama himself, and of course the press couldn't get enough of making fun of the old cold warrior. Bunch of cockroaches, all of them.

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8 minutes ago, Vort said:

The hypocrisy is nauseating

Yup. 

When I was younger and more naive I thought only the other side was hypocritical and contradictory. Surely my side wasn't like that. After all, we were the good guys, standing up for truth and justice. 

Yes, I really believed that. 

Now, I understand that both sides are guilty of all sorts of things, and those who think like I used to are both naive and stupid. 

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We have three major political parties in my country - all quite disorganized, hypocritical and sometimes venally corrupt. I do wish that we were negotiated with Mitt Romney right now. 

I have to remind myself next time I am voting that the ability to feel shame is a key requirement in selecting a government representative. I was about to vote conservative in the last provincial election. I had met the candidate, a practicing Muslim, which I personally feel is a plus. I feel the Spirit with practicing Muslims so I feel good about having a Muslim as my elected representative. Shortly after meeting the candidate, his workers were revealed to be breaking the election rules. My candidate told the media that he could not control his workers actions. No remorse. No taking responsibility. I changed my vote! 

Edited by Sunday21
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1 hour ago, Sunday21 said:

I wish Romney had been elected. Sigh. 

I wished this back in 2012 when I campaigned for him as much as a non-citizen could do.

Today, I am so disgusted with Romney's derangement over the 2016 elections trying to upend the electoral results by USING MORMONS to split the Utah and Arizona votes to a McMullin run that has no other purpose but to prevent a GOP win, thereby helping elect Hilary.  And then going so far as to praise ANTIFA.  Then, wiggling his way to the State Department after all that!  Anyway... Romney's atrocities are politically unforgiveable, showing his true political ambitions and colors where he has no problem shedding his political stances for a paid government job.   Needless to say, I'm VERY disappointed that Mormons elected him to Congress.

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@Vort The US needs at least two main political parties.

So is there somewhere another political party that could run the country? An off shoot of one of the two main parties? I am massively disappointed that a third party candidate did not win in Utah. Wasn’t there a Mormon with a cia/fbi background? Any chance of a moderate party coming along? Aren’t there right wing democrats or moderate republicans? 

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1 minute ago, Sunday21 said:

@Vort The US needs at least two main political parties.

So is there somewhere another political party that could run the country? An off shoot of one of the two main parties? I am massively disappointed that a third party candidate did not win in Utah. Wasn’t there a Mormon with a cia/fbi background? Any chance of a moderate party coming along? Aren’t there right wing democrats or moderate republicans? 

McMullin did pretty well in Utah, relatively speaking.  I voted for him myself, but have been disappointed by his post-election knee-jerk anti-Trumpism on Every Single Issue (there’s a lot wrong with Trump; but when he’s right he’s right and it needs to be acknowledged), as well as McMullin’s apparent failure to make arrangements for the payment of his campaign debts.  There was also, independent of McMullin, a much-ballyhooed United Utah party that formed last year and, last I heard, has pretty much gone nowhere.  

These conspiracy theories about McMullin being a Romney stooge are nonsense, though.  I know from several sources that McMullin saw Romney as a natural ally and repeatedly begged for Romney support—but was rebuffed consistently.  For some reason, Romney did *not* want to see McMullin get any real traction.

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10 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

McMullin did pretty well in Utah,

That's nice, but I heard he didn't do that well outside of Utah. Any truth to that? 

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1 hour ago, Sunday21 said:

@Vort The US needs at least two main political parties.

So is there somewhere another political party that could run the country? An off shoot of one of the two main parties? I am massively disappointed that a third party candidate did not win in Utah. Wasn’t there a Mormon with a cia/fbi background? Any chance of a moderate party coming along? Aren’t there right wing democrats or moderate republicans? 

The US Republican versus Democrat structure is fine, even without the independent and 3rd party runners.  It works because of the electoral college.

The issue today is not Republican versus Democrat.  The issue is that only one political party - Republican - is healthy.  The Democratic Party is not healthy and it hasn't been for a long time due to the stranglehold of their political elites that causes in-party dissenting opinions ostracized/buried/erased/etc.   The Republican Party has many factions - you got the Republican "Old Guard", the Freedom Caucus, the conservative ideologues, the libertarians, the Reaganites, etc., and now the Trump-Republicans, all in the same party.  They have a lot of in-fighting which is healthy for the party such that extreme factions gets filtered out before it reaches actionable politics.

The Democratic Party needs an overhaul.  The problem is, the way it is looking right now, the party electioneering efforts has led to a very unhealthy situation where the natural progression is towards extremism such that the aging party leadership is getting replaced by younger personalities a lot more radical than they are.  Who would have thought Socialism and even Communism would be a viable political platform in the USA?

 

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Guest MormonGator
9 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

Yeah, it was ugly.

A famous pet food company CEO started ranting and raving about why their new food didn't sell well. Someone at the meeting said, "It's simple Sir. The dogs just don't like it." 

The uncomfortable truth that no one seems to want to admit is that when it comes to third parties, on the actual election day, the dogs just don't like it. It was that way with John Anderson. Ross Perot, and Evan McMullin. Notice a pattern here? No? Well then, you and the CEO have something in common. 

(You not meaning @Just_A_Guy

Edited by MormonGator
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Guest MormonGator

In fact, it's so pathetic that third party voters claim great success when their guy doesn't finish last, you know, losing to Lyndon LaRouche or Harold Stassen. We hear people say "Oh, well Evan almost won Utah." Yeah, but he didn't actually win. Or "Well Ross Perot almost got 20 million votes." Yes, well, um, he didn't win a single state though.  

I voted for Johnson, so I can safely say that third party voters are idiotic and don't have a clue how the political system in 2016 works. We do so because we think we are better than all those fools who hold their nose, get their hands dirty and vote for a Republican or Democrat. 

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