Changing Mind About Trump

[Guest]

When our current President was elected, I had many misgivings.  Mostly, the problem was with character.  I also had a problem with his political positions.  My main concern in the latter category was that I really had no idea whether I could believe anything that came out of the man's mouth.  How can we know if he's just spouting off the talking point of the moment or not?  He really had no consistent history that I could look back on and say,"Ok.  I can see where the guy is coming from."

So, I treated him like I would any politician.  I assumed he was lying through his teeth and simply telling us what we wanted (and sometimes did NOT want) to hear.  Combine that with his character record, and I simply could not accept him as anyone I could vote for.

But little by little, I've seen what he's actually gotten done through political maneuvering and what has happened during his presidency as a direct result of his rhetoric.  I began perking my ears and raising my eyebrows when I realized a lot of it was good.  Now, we finally see a piece of legislation that begins to take down Obamacare.  Not the greatest piece of legislation.  But on the balance, I'd say more good than bad.  And as of today, it is waiting for his signature alone.

I know that sometimes greatly flawed men can do great things.  But it was a hard pill for me to swallow that a man like Trump could actually do some things to help with the moral decay in this country.  But when I read that Planned Parenthood is closing dozens of its centers, I had to give some credit to the Trump Administration.  He put his rhetoric behind the conservative movements that have so long been not only ignored, but blocked by the previous administration.

Yes, he's greatly flawed.  But I can't deny some of the good he's been doing lately.

[anatess2]

19 hours ago, Carborendum said:

My main concern in the latter category was that I really had no idea whether I could believe anything that came out of the man's mouth.  How can we know if he's just spouting off the talking point of the moment or not?  He really had no consistent history that I could look back on and say,"Ok.  I can see where the guy is coming from."

I keep on hearing this from people.  I really have no idea where this comes from.  Trump has been very consistent on the major issues for as long as you can dig up old videos of Trump on YouTube.  He's been making political commentary for half his life.  Here, I'll pull several of them for you.  You can just go through pot shot few seconds here and there of each speech to hear the exact same Trump, exact same issues, exact same solutions today.  Speaks the exact same way too - from his head to the people same as today 1 year into being President.  No scrubbing/sanitizing/teleprompting/politcal handling of any kind.  Only change is - he actually has speech writers now and has the teleprompter, but he still does his ad libbing throughout a speech writer prepped teleprompted speech.

From 1988:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6BJYbn4MppM

Republicans used to think he's the bom-diggity.  He was not racist, sexist, homophobe, bigot, immoral before June 2015.  Republicans don't put immoral people on their CPAC line-up (hello, Milo).  Here's his CPAC speeches - same exact message, same exact issues, same exact solutions - low taxes, fair trade, jobs jobs jobs.

2011:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gXQ3JOvNmlk&t=91s

 

2013:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fX4wkOGqSic&t=179s

2014:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nzaemPHSU0

 

 

 

19 hours ago, Carborendum said:

But it was a hard pill for me to swallow that a man like Trump ...

Maybe, just maybe... that the actual statement is actually... "hard pill to swallow that a man the media with the help of the leaders of the Democrat and Republican parties has painted as Trump..."

 

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

I keep on hearing this from people.  I really have no idea where this comes from.  Trump has been very consistent on the major issues for as long as you can dig up old videos of Trump on YouTube.  He's been making political commentary for half his life.  Here, I'll pull several of them for you. 

Yes, you've posted them before.  And others posted videos of him saying exactly the opposite of many of the same things.

8 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Maybe, just maybe... that the actual statement is actually... "hard pill to swallow that a man the media with the help of the leaders of the Democrat and Republican parties has painted as Trump..."

I am capable of weeding through the media tripe and listening to what the man actually says as well as his history with his wives (plural) as well as many other things in his life.  And I can't help but notice quite a few reprehensible things that I would never ever do in my entire life.

[anatess2]

Anyway, this is actually what I really wanted to say on this thread.  The above was just some passing commentary.

Trump Major Achievements this Year just off the top of my head (because they have big impact on the Philippines or myself):

1.)  Gorsuch

2.)  record number of federal Judicial appointees and they're all Constitutionalists.

3.)  Pacific theater alliances formed.  DPRK sanctions solidified (although I'm not fully on-board with this as a solution to the DPRK issue, it is at least a better situation than it was before)

4.)  Global UN contributions on the way to being restored

5.)  ISIS dismantled.  Iraq and Syria headed towards stabilization.

6.)  UN anti-semitic elements full court pressed.  Jerusalem declared capital. 

7.)  US pulled out of Paris Climate Agreement.  Climate removed as a national security threat.

8.)  China trade reset.  Express support for British trade post-Brexit (if they ever get there).  TPP stopped, NAFTA on notice (the tax reform actually could result in a massive NAFTA imbalance correction)

9.)  Illegal immigration drastically reduced.  Border security strengthened.  Sanctuary cities on notice.

I have to go get some Christmas presents... I'm gonna rush through this.  There's just too many for my head to do in a rush so I'm sure there are major ones I'm gonna miss.

10).  Massive extraneous regulations on major industries removed.

11.)  DOW records reached 85+ times, lowest unemployment numbers in 12 years, lowest unemployment numbers for hispanics in history,.  3+% GDP growth for 2 consecutive quarters - about to reach 4% for the last quarter.

12.)  International abortion funding stopped.

13.)  Media false narrative nuked everyday.

14.)  Health insurance opened to non-Obamacare compliant markets.

15.)  Russian collusion investigation exposing FBI/DOJ corruption.

16.)  Keystone XL pipeline go ahead.  Coal restrictions reduced.

17.)  Net Neutrality - gone.

 

Running out of time... and Tax Reform gave us:

18)  Corporate rate taxes down to 21%.  Tax on income brackets shrunk.  Repatriation taxes eliminated.  Estate taxes eliminated.  Child tax credit doubled.  Property taxes capped at 750K.  Fed State subsidies capped at 10K.

with bonus opening of ANWR and Obamacare mandate gone.

 

Okay, I'll clean this up later.  Maybe.  Merry Christmas.

Edited December 22, 2017 by anatess2

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Anyway, this is actually what I really wanted to say on this thread.  The above was just some passing commentary.

Trump Major Achievements this Year just off the top of my head (because they have big impact on the Philippines or myself):

...

Okay, I'll clean this up later.  Maybe.  Merry Christmas.

I thought I acknowledged all this when I wrote the OP.

[anatess2]

15 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Yes, you've posted them before.  And others posted videos of him saying exactly the opposite of many of the same things.

I am capable of weeding through the media tripe and listening to what the man actually says as well as his history with his wives (plural) as well as many other things in his life.  And I can't help but notice quite a few reprehensible things that I would never ever do in my entire life.

It wasn't a problem when Reagan was President.  I'm quite convinced it's all because he talks the way politicians talk and not the way construction workers talk.  Reagan had the tabloids running the same rag stories but people ignore the rags.  In Trump, the rags became the news.

In any case, if we would only elect Presidents who would never do things I would never do in my life we wouldn't have... oh, I don't know... Andrew Jackson is a popular one.  A lot of McCain voters became Never-Trump-because-of-his-character voters - hello Romney.  I still wonder how in the world you guys put that slimeball on the general ticket.

[anatess2]

8 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

I thought I acknowledged all this when I wrote the OP.

I'm confused by what you mean here.  I'd like to respond... "Did I say you didn't?" but my brain is not on focus so I may have missed what you're trying to say with this post.

I listed his achievements from my point of view.  It supports your statement "I've seen what he's gotten done" or something to that effect.  I didn't quote the specific statement, sorry.  I really have to go get presents (I hate shopping so I'm dragging my feet).

[Just_A_Guy]

I will acknowledge that the Trump administration overall has been more reliably conservative than I ever anticipated.

That said:  my concerns as to his personal morality, his effect on the intellectual decay of conservatism and Judeo-Christian morality in popular culture, his effect in the tenor of political discourse generally, and his long-term effect on the political prospects of conservatism; remain unresolved.  And I continue to believe that Trump has accomplished no more, and probably a good deal less, than most of the other Republican primary candidates would have accomplished as president.  

This mess of political pottage tastes very nice; but I fear it comes at a very high price.  Just how high, we won’t really know until 2020.

Edited December 22, 2017 by Just_A_Guy

[Guest Godless]

1 hour ago, Just_A_Guy said:

This mess of political pottage tastes very nice; but I fear it comes at a very high price.  Just how high, we won’t really know until 2020.

I have a feeling you're going to start seeing some significant fallout next year. Heck, we're already seeing it to a small extent this year. Jones over Moore in Alabama. A Republican just barely won a special election in Tennessee this week that should have been a landslide victory for the GOP. A House of Delegates election in Viginia ended in a tie in a district that's been held by the GOP for the last 15 years. They'll literally be drawing names from a hat (okay, technically a bowl I think) next week to determine the winner. 

[Guest]

4 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

This mess of political pottage tastes very nice; but I fear it comes at a very high price.  Just how high, we won’t really know until 2020.

1

I thought I understood what you meant here.  But now I don't think I do.  Could you expound?

[Just_A_Guy]

I’ve said a lot of this before, and I don’t want to get too tedious by repetition (besides, @anatess2 and I are getting along fairly well at the moment.   ).

But basically, I think it’s what @Godless said (with reservations—Moore’s loss specifically is an aberration because he was such a spectacularly bad candidate.  You can’t always count on the GOP to nominate a guy who dates teenagers).  Midterms are always tough for the party in power (though the 2018 Senate map has always been favorable), and other elections and polling numbers aren’t looking very pretty at the moment. 

I don’t see us building a movement of new Republican voters from those who were previously Democratic or unaffiliated, and we aren’t really enjoying a renaissance of conservative thought (the tax bill is being sold less on the fact that it’s the right thing to do and more on the sort of “we’ll give you more money!” rhetoric that is typically spewed forth by liberals; and from what I can gather no one really bothered to “sell” the repeal of net neutrality at all).  The individual tax cuts won’t be felt until April 2019; and just judging on average past business cycle lengths, we may well be into a recession by then (and almost certainly by 2020) for which Republicans, as the party in power, will inevitably get most of the blame.  The GOP has an uphill battle ahead of it.

Time will tell if current numbers go up, but mostly right now I see Republicans repeating the same mistakes the Dems made in 2008-2010:  they grabbed the reins of power, declared “we won!”, and started governing by fiat rather than persuasion; and catered to their base without taking time to grow their movement.  Meanwhile the formerly-dispirited minority party (who had stayed home in the last election because their party had nominated a uniquely lackluster presidential candidate) stewed in their juices for a couple years until their rage exploded at the ballot box two years later.  This script seems uncomfortably familiar.  

As Republicans we need loyalists—but we spent last year cannibalizing them.  We need evangelists—but we spent the last two years crapping on the people we hoped to evangelize.  We need intellectual Holy writ—but last year we threw away our scriptures.  We need a great communicator/conciliator/policy wonk at the head of our party . . . and we have Trump.

Edited December 23, 2017 by Just_A_Guy

[Sunday21]

I am reading some sobering stats: in USA wages for men who did not complete high school fell by 32% in real terms between 1979 & 2015. Men who finished high school but not college lost 19% in real terms (The Economist Nov 25, 2017). Perhaps these stats explain the anger of the deplorables? (Mind you others have different explanations. I was speaking to a Canadian neurologist the other day who told me Americans are so angry all of the time due to traffic). 

Edited December 23, 2017 by Sunday21

[Guest]

16 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

...the tax bill is being sold less on the fact that it’s the right thing to do and more on the sort of “we’ll give you more money!” rhetoric that is typically spewed forth by liberals; and from what I can gather no one really bothered to “sell” the repeal of net neutrality at all...

 

This sentiment is exactly why I'm not overjoyed about Trump, but rather the accomplishments.  It seems that the right thing is being done (more or less) but for the wrong reasons.  But how can I argue with the results?  I don't appreciate the motives.  But the results are the results.

As far as the desire to get re-elected or getting praise for accomplishing something, that is what the Founders intended.  That's exactly why election cycles are the way they are.

[Guest]

There are two political issues I really care about: North Korea and the national debt.

As for North Korea, I am glad Trump is addressing the problem instead of kicking the can down the road.  Under Obama, NK would launch a missile, the US would do (and sometimes say) nothing, and then China would say it is all America's fault that Kim Jong Un launched a missile.  I shudder to think how Hilary would be handling the NK crisis if she had won the election.

As for the national debt, jury is still out.  It will be interesting to see if Trump's tax cuts pay for themselves (if they do, or if they get close to paying for themselves, they will have been a very good move aimed at stimulating the economy).  If Trump fails on this issue, he will simply be continuing a trend that started under George W. and picked up steam under Obama.  But, at some point, probably sooner rather than later, something is going to have to give on the national debt.

All in all, I do believe perhaps there was some divine intervention in putting Trump in office against everyone's expectations, in retrospect.  I think Trump is the right man to handle North Korea, and he may actually save America.

EDIT:  A third issue I really care about is ISIS, but it looks like that's been pretty much solved.  I have to give Trump credit for solving it, too.

Edited December 23, 2017 by DoctorLemon

[Blossom76]

Just an Aussie's opinion here!  

I think its great that Trump won, he's a business man, he's good with money, most countries in the world are broke, having a successful business man who doesn't give a "blank" about what people think is very refreshing.  

He has the guts to act before he worries about what the public will think of his decisions.  And fair enough really, I mean he is the President, it is his job.  He's a dude, I like him!

[Guest]

15 minutes ago, Blossom76 said:

He's a dude, I like him!

 

Now, that's California talk.  Don't you Aussies call them "blokes"?

Edited December 23, 2017 by Guest

[prisonchaplain]

Concerning POTUS, I find myself right in the middle--sharing @Carborendum's hope--though with less certainty--yet also agreeing with @Just_A_Guy's qualms--though with a bit more optimism that what lies beneath his troubling exterior is something smart and helpful for our great land.

[JohnsonJones]

Well, I took a look at my taxes in several of the sites.  It appears that I will lose somewhere between $180 and $1800 on a general estimate.  I'm not one that's going to get any "new money", but the biggest campaign promise stated by Trump that he broke in regards to the new taxes is that he would not benefit from it.  Turns out, it appears he is one of the BIGGEST beneficiaries of it.

Republican Senators have broken several promises with the new taxes...that of reducing the budget deficit and everything that they said in conjunction with that.  From all appearances, this is going to make it balloon bigger than anything that Obama ever did.  Funny that when one gets into power, they take the same positions as those they attacked rather than keeping to their promises.

The ACA has not been repealed (something they had almost unanimous republican support for almost every time they voted, and that was a LOT of times previously to Trump taking office), and the new ideas don't do away with it, they just take away a tax penalty which, once again will affect the US Budget adversely and is predicted to make rates rise even more than they have been already.

That wall...oh yes...that wall still hasn't been built.  Instead of worrying about Sanctuary cities now...the entire STATE OF CALIFORNIA has become a Sanctuary state.  Oh yeah...good job with that...Trump and Republican congress.  California basically just went nuclear on that entire topic.  Now it's not just cities, it's states that are going into sanctuary status.

Coal hasn't gained any new jobs...still losing a few even from what I hear.

Corporations, despite having record profits (and this, along with the disaster in Kansas is why many are saying these tax cuts do nothing to inspire them to reinvest, they already have more money than they have in over a decade and they are still NOT reinvesting...if they are not reinvesting after having over 2x the money they used to, why is anymore going to inspire them...it should have had targeted tax cuts where they get reductions for salary increases or job creation...etc), have NOT created more jobs (in fact, more have gone overseas under Trump...though it MAY be at a slightly reduced rate).

I see Trump having done ONE and only really ONE big thing which is to create a more conservative judiciary with his Supreme court justice and the various judges he's installed.

Other than that...not a whole lot I think that is good is going on from him or his Congress.

I think this is going to have major reverberations against them in the coming elections and in 2020 and probably far after that.  I did not like what Democrats did when they were in power, but at least they didn't turn around and say they wanted a balanced budget and then do the exact opposite of that.  They already were for a budget explosion.  Thus far, I'm not liking what the Republicans have done while in office even more than disliking what the Democrats did when they were in office.  That's not a good sign for Republicans I think.

Alabama was a trick from the Democrats in my opinion.  From what we see of the lawsuits against Roy Moore today, it seems clear to me it was a political ploy rather than any REAL situation, at least that's what it appears now.  If that's the Democrat playbook, to push slander on any republican candidate like that, it's not going to take too long (or so I hope) that the independents catch on and basically vote the exact opposite of what the Democrats want...basically have it backfire in the Democrats faces.  In that light, Alabama is not showing any thing in regards to Democrats being able to win in my opinion, except via lies and slander.

On the otherhand, Tennessee and Virginia are far more telling.  It could be VERY rough for Republican in the mid terms and just as rough if not worse in the next presidential election.  They HAD their chance as the majority party and instead of doing something like they were trying to do under Obama, they basically acted like the Democrats x 200.  If they wanted to do things then do the major actions we all wanted from Conservatives...balance the budget and repeal the ACA.  No one cared about a tax "reduction" during this time period, but they do care when the deficit is going to increase primarily due to tax cuts for the wealthy, not a good way to draw attention to a supposed tax reform.

And I know of almost no one that really wanted Net Neutrality repealed.  The nations that don't have net neutrality are places like China and North Korea.  Yeah...great company there that we've joined.  Portugal is one of the few free nations that does not have Net Neutrality and what's happened there due to it has NOT been pretty.  There are some that may celebrate it, but overall that was NOT a popular move.

I see the tide turning strongly against the Republicans but it is NOT because of the normal political tides, it's because they are sabotaging themselves and shooting themselves rather than any normal political tide.

[anatess2]

On 12/22/2017 at 7:12 PM, Just_A_Guy said:

 

I don’t see us building a movement of new Republican voters from those who were previously Democratic or unaffiliated, and we aren’t really enjoying a renaissance of conservative thought (the tax bill is being sold less on the fact that it’s the right thing to do and more on the sort of “we’ll give you more money!” rhetoric that is typically spewed forth by liberals; and from what I can gather no one really bothered to “sell” the repeal of net neutrality at all).  The individual tax cuts won’t be felt until April 2019; and just judging on average past business cycle lengths, we may well be into a recession by then (and almost certainly by 2020) for which Republicans, as the party in power, will inevitably get most of the blame.  The GOP has an uphill battle ahead of it..

My brain is still not fully back in my head so I'm just gonna take pot shots in this thread.

From where I sit, I see an entire generation of Conservatives rising up.  None of the Conservative think tanks (most of whom went anti-Trump, with a bunch of them going never-Trump) were ever able to sell conservatism.  Rush Limbaugh railed about this for the past 20 years. 

The rising generation will ALWAYS fight THE MAN.  It's human nature.  Now that progressive liberals are doing the exact same thing that social conservatives did back in the 70's - using government to impose their own brand of morality with the media, educators, and hollywood all becoming the Man preaching "acceptable societal behavior" via political correctness - the next generation is rising against THAT man as is their nature.  Pewdepie is doing a whole lot more to promote the conservative ideology in the rising generation than any of the billion-dollar conservative think tanks ever had.  Eminem joining the Man did more to strengthen conservative ideology in the rising generation than Ted Cruz.  Rush Limbaugh held the Conservative thought together through the onslaught of progressivism but even he simply kept like-minded people from jumping ship.  He hasn't convinced much of the other side to conservative thought because of the successful portrayal by the media that he is an "extremist".  But the media can't stop the rising generation because they are growing up in an era where the media is the Man that they're also fighting against.   Trolling the Man has become a fun past time for these kids - they feel important lobbing their own ammo in their meme wars and tweets so much so that even Ted Cruz now does it and Lindsey Graham has said he now understands why Trump does it.  Trump being the king of trolls separates him from the rest of government who is The Man.

And this is the real issue of American conservative politics.  There is no Conservative standard-bearer who can take THIS OPPORTUNITY of progressive extremism to take these young conservatives from "fighting the man" to solid ideology.  Trump brought these kids out to fight the man.  Somebody solidly with Trump needs to take it all the way through.  Unfortunately, the people who currently have the power to do it prefer to join The Man and fight against Trump because... they don't like trolls (sigh.).  They do not see what is happening here.

 

On 12/22/2017 at 7:12 PM, Just_A_Guy said:

 

Time will tell if current numbers go up, but mostly right now I see Republicans repeating the same mistakes the Dems made in 2008-2010:  they grabbed the reins of power, declared “we won!”, and started governing by fiat rather than persuasion; and catered to their base without taking time to grow their movement.  Meanwhile the formerly-dispirited minority party (who had stayed home in the last election because their party had nominated a uniquely lackluster presidential candidate) stewed in their juices for a couple years until their rage exploded at the ballot box two years later.  This script seems uncomfortably familiar.  

As Republicans we need loyalists—but we spent last year cannibalizing them.  We need evangelists—but we spent the last two years crapping on the people we hoped to evangelize.  We need intellectual Holy writ—but last year we threw away our scriptures.  We need a great communicator/conciliator/policy wonk at the head of our party . . . and we have Trump.

 You are under the mistaken assumption that Republicans are conservatives.  And that's the unique trait of Trump that made it possible to have conservative ideas succeed in 2017.  Trump is not ideological.  He can't spell conservative.  He only knows, instinctively, what makes American lives better and what doesn't.  Conservatism in American politics (this is not true worldwide because we don't have the benefit of the US Constitution), when applied, always result in a better America.  So, Trump, not being tied to a label - including Republican - can promote conservative positions that work (e.g. border control) and reject adopted conservative positions that do not work (e.g.  "Free" Trade) because he is not wedded to people's ideas of what is conservative (e.g. Republican big government platform that Bush/McCain/Romney/etc promoted that is far from conservative).  

And that's how you can have a first year Administration accomplishment that is solidly Conservative with measurable results.  And I hope you have changed your mind about Clinton having been better.

In any case, if you go by history, a super majority of one party usually results in a balancing in the next election.  It's a natural consequence of the design of the US Constitution.  And that's a GOOD THING.  That is why it is important that you take the super majority opportunity to prove your side works so you can bring the other side to the middle before the pendulum swings.  Unfortunately, both parties have become entrenched in their quest for lobbyists that guarantee their government paychecks instead of proper governance.   And they're too busy fighting Trump.  So, there you go.  Another missed opportunity.  Except Trump is too bullheaded to be stopped by the Dem-Repub-Media-Hollywood-Educators-pussyhats-etc combo.  So there's that at least.

 

Edited January 8, 2018 by anatess2

[anatess2]

On 1/6/2018 at 5:33 AM, JohnsonJones said:

Well, I took a look at my taxes in several of the sites.  It appears that I will lose somewhere between $180 and $1800 on a general estimate.  I'm not one that's going to get any "new money", but the biggest campaign promise stated by Trump that he broke in regards to the new taxes is that he would not benefit from it.  Turns out, it appears he is one of the BIGGEST beneficiaries of it.

Republican Senators have broken several promises with the new taxes...that of reducing the budget deficit and everything that they said in conjunction with that.  From all appearances, this is going to make it balloon bigger than anything that Obama ever did.  Funny that when one gets into power, they take the same positions as those they attacked rather than keeping to their promises.

The ACA has not been repealed (something they had almost unanimous republican support for almost every time they voted, and that was a LOT of times previously to Trump taking office), and the new ideas don't do away with it, they just take away a tax penalty which, once again will affect the US Budget adversely and is predicted to make rates rise even more than they have been already.

That wall...oh yes...that wall still hasn't been built.  Instead of worrying about Sanctuary cities now...the entire STATE OF CALIFORNIA has become a Sanctuary state.  Oh yeah...good job with that...Trump and Republican congress.  California basically just went nuclear on that entire topic.  Now it's not just cities, it's states that are going into sanctuary status.

Coal hasn't gained any new jobs...still losing a few even from what I hear.

Corporations, despite having record profits (and this, along with the disaster in Kansas is why many are saying these tax cuts do nothing to inspire them to reinvest, they already have more money than they have in over a decade and they are still NOT reinvesting...if they are not reinvesting after having over 2x the money they used to, why is anymore going to inspire them...it should have had targeted tax cuts where they get reductions for salary increases or job creation...etc), have NOT created more jobs (in fact, more have gone overseas under Trump...though it MAY be at a slightly reduced rate).

I see Trump having done ONE and only really ONE big thing which is to create a more conservative judiciary with his Supreme court justice and the various judges he's installed.

Other than that...not a whole lot I think that is good is going on from him or his Congress.

I think this is going to have major reverberations against them in the coming elections and in 2020 and probably far after that.  I did not like what Democrats did when they were in power, but at least they didn't turn around and say they wanted a balanced budget and then do the exact opposite of that.  They already were for a budget explosion.  Thus far, I'm not liking what the Republicans have done while in office even more than disliking what the Democrats did when they were in office.  That's not a good sign for Republicans I think.

Alabama was a trick from the Democrats in my opinion.  From what we see of the lawsuits against Roy Moore today, it seems clear to me it was a political ploy rather than any REAL situation, at least that's what it appears now.  If that's the Democrat playbook, to push slander on any republican candidate like that, it's not going to take too long (or so I hope) that the independents catch on and basically vote the exact opposite of what the Democrats want...basically have it backfire in the Democrats faces.  In that light, Alabama is not showing any thing in regards to Democrats being able to win in my opinion, except via lies and slander.

On the otherhand, Tennessee and Virginia are far more telling.  It could be VERY rough for Republican in the mid terms and just as rough if not worse in the next presidential election.  They HAD their chance as the majority party and instead of doing something like they were trying to do under Obama, they basically acted like the Democrats x 200.  If they wanted to do things then do the major actions we all wanted from Conservatives...balance the budget and repeal the ACA.  No one cared about a tax "reduction" during this time period, but they do care when the deficit is going to increase primarily due to tax cuts for the wealthy, not a good way to draw attention to a supposed tax reform.

And I know of almost no one that really wanted Net Neutrality repealed.  The nations that don't have net neutrality are places like China and North Korea.  Yeah...great company there that we've joined.  Portugal is one of the few free nations that does not have Net Neutrality and what's happened there due to it has NOT been pretty.  There are some that may celebrate it, but overall that was NOT a popular move.

I see the tide turning strongly against the Republicans but it is NOT because of the normal political tides, it's because they are sabotaging themselves and shooting themselves rather than any normal political tide.

Dagnabbit!  I wrote a long-winded response to this and I accidentally hit back-arrow on the idiot browser and poof!  It's gone.

So, I guess we'll see if I'm up to writing another one.  Maybe tomorrow.  Don't hold your breath.

Anyway... my first line on that response was... Are you liberal?  Because, I could eliminate most of my response if you are and I won't have to re-write a long one.  Saves both of us some time and energy...

 

Edited January 8, 2018 by anatess2

[Traveler]

 

I am quite cynical when it comes to politics.  I believe Satan has greater hold on governments and that funds are allocated for military purposes and illicit purposes.  I am convinced that any attempt to alter corruption in government will result in bloodshed.    The only thing that impresses me is the opposition that Trump is getting from political and other power brokers.  It means he is causing problems to “the establishment”. 

In general, I do not think Trump or anyone else is addressing our greatest political problems.  Taxes is a red hearing.  The problem is not what money the government brings in – the corruption is in how the money is used.   I have posted before – taking Social Security as an example.  If the money taken in by Social Security was just given back to survivors starting at age 65 (my generation).  The average benefit would be $70,000 per year.  If there was any interest added (which there is not) the amount would be more than double.   However, the average benefit is about 1/3.  This is because Social Security is a lie – the money has not been held in reserve but spent and not replaced – so Social Security is going bankrupt.   There is not one politician in any party that cares and if there is ever any change to Social Security – it will be to increase the SS tax.

The same is true concerning health care.  The costs of health care have consistently gone up much more than the economy or cost of living.  Never once has the government in all its noise about health care ever once addressed any of the 4 major reasons for the increase costs of health care (this includes all members of congress of both parties – and the current Trump administration.

I cannot think of anything the US government has done since I started paying attention (1960’s) that has not been a colossal over reach and a massive waist of far more funds that was actually needed.

One last point.  The magic date is 1973.  This is the date that the middle class in the USA was overburdened by government and has remained financially stagnant or flat – while the economy has continued to grow.  The wealthy class has benefited – the poor have benefited but the middle class has remained stagnant.  If the trend continues the middle class will be no better off than the poor on welfare long before global warming changes the economy – if it ever does.

 

The Traveler

[anatess2]

4 minutes ago, Traveler said:

There is not one politician in any party that cares and if there is ever any change to Social Security – it will be to increase the SS tax.

This is not true.  Paul Ryan spent his entire career prior to running for 2012 VP race trying to persuade people to fix Social Security by locking it away from public claws by putting it in private investments controlled by the individual.  He started with a measly... I think it was 5%... of each individual's SS contributions.  Both Democrats and a lot of Republicans rejected the idea stating that the individual is too stupid to know how to invest their own SS money (they could be right... after all, what are we gonna do with the people who loses their SS money on a stock gamble, eh?).  But yeah, at least Ryan cares.  And I like him even if a lot of Trump fans do not.  In any case, the only way you can fix SS is if you allow people to control their own money and allow them to go to the poor house if they are unwise.  

But nah.  People like to be run by a nanny state.  So there.

4 minutes ago, Traveler said:

The same is true concerning health care.  The costs of health care have consistently gone up much more than the economy or cost of living.  Never once has the government in all its noise about health care ever once addressed any of the 4 major reasons for the increase costs of health care (this includes all members of congress of both parties – and the current Trump administration.

Not true about the Trump Administration.  Trump Administration signed an EO to remove restrictions on marketing health insurance across state lines.  Trump Administration also removed Obamacare mandates that required insurance policies to cover things like birth control, etc.  So now insurance companies can once again sell basic cheap policies.

Congress cannot pass healthcare law because they're stuck on this idea that the Government has to provide for healthcare coverage.  You know how it is... once you give people benefits, you can't take it away unless you burn down your chances of getting re-elected.

 

4 minutes ago, Traveler said:

I cannot think of anything the US government has done since I started paying attention (1960’s) that has not been a colossal over reach and a massive waist of far more funds that was actually needed.

Then you must be happy with Trump.  Massive regulatory cuts have been occurring and nobody is even talking about it because... Russia.

 

4 minutes ago, Traveler said:

One last point.  The magic date is 1973.  This is the date that the middle class in the USA was overburdened by government and has remained financially stagnant or flat – while the economy has continued to grow.  The wealthy class has benefited – the poor have benefited but the middle class has remained stagnant.  If the trend continues the middle class will be no better off than the poor on welfare long before global warming changes the economy – if it ever does.

Stay tuned.  We can discuss this again in 2020.

 

 

[Traveler]

1 hour ago, anatess2 said:

This is not true.  Paul Ryan spent his entire career prior to running for 2012 VP race trying to persuade people to fix Social Security by locking it away from public claws by putting it in private investments controlled by the individual.  He started with a measly... I think it was 5%... of each individual's SS contributions.  Both Democrats and a lot of Republicans rejected the idea stating that the individual is too stupid to know how to invest their own SS money (they could be right... after all, what are we gonna do with the people who loses their SS money on a stock gamble, eh?).  But yeah, at least Ryan cares.  And I like him even if a lot of Trump fans do not.  In any case, the only way you can fix SS is if you allow people to control their own money and allow them to go to the poor house if they are unwise.  

But nah.  People like to be run by a nanny state.  So there.

When Paul Ryan or any other public official will publicly declare that military black ops cannot or should not be funded with Social Security funds (or any other spending of the funds for programs other than SS – I will believe you that Paul Ryan really intends to save SS or actually cares.  No one is stopping the robbery and lies associated with Social Security.   Yes, that includes Paul Ryan. 

Quote

Not true about the Trump Administration.  Trump Administration signed an EO to remove restrictions on marketing health insurance across state lines.  Trump Administration also removed Obamacare mandates that required insurance policies to cover things like birth control, etc.  So now insurance companies can once again sell basic cheap policies.

Exactly what I am talking about and trying to point out – this is not one of the 4 major reasons for the increase costs in health care.  This is a reason for increases in health care insurance cost.  Nice try.  It is time to cut the rhetorical political talking points and deal with the actual issue that are hurting (devastating) the middle class.   Hint what has happening since 1973?

Quote

Congress cannot pass healthcare law because they're stuck on this idea that the Government has to provide for healthcare coverage.  You know how it is... once you give people benefits, you can't take it away unless you burn down your chances of getting re-elected.

 

 

You have it wrong – Congress is more concerned with lobbyists and campaign financing than they are helping citizens.  Again, every law passed since 1973 has help the insurance companies – there is not one law to protect the middle-class health care.  NOT ONE!!!  And no one cares – at least they do not say anything during any campaign. 

Quote

Then you must be happy with Trump.  Massive regulatory cuts have been occurring and nobody is even talking about it because... Russia.

Stay tuned.  We can discuss this again in 2020.

I have worked most of my life in corporate.  True de-regulating corporate can, in some cases help the economy – but I have yet to see that trickle down to the middle class.  Oh wait, I forgot the upper management of corporate need someone to take care of all their stuff that they buy with their bonus profits and stock options that creates a lot of lower end jobs that really help the middle class?  The big problem (elephant in the room) is spending pork.  Did you know that the richest and fasting counties in the USA border Washington DC?  It will take a bloody civil war to dislodge that corruption.

If Trump gets close to any real change that would actually benefit the middle class – the Russian collusion thing (the whole investigation) will look like a Young Woman fundraising project for camp in comparison to what will happen. 

 

The Traveler

[JohnsonJones]

8 hours ago, anatess2 said:

Dagnabbit!  I wrote a long-winded response to this and I accidentally hit back-arrow on the idiot browser and poof!  It's gone.

So, I guess we'll see if I'm up to writing another one.  Maybe tomorrow.  Don't hold your breath.

Anyway... my first line on that response was... Are you liberal?  Because, I could eliminate most of my response if you are and I won't have to re-write a long one.  Saves both of us some time and energy...

 

Well, comparatively to most on these boards I am EXCESSIVELY Liberal.  Probably considered to the FAR Left...which I will point out in many situations so people won't make any mistakes in that.

However, I view myself more as a centrist, neither really left nor right, neither truly liberal or conservative.  I might even say I probably lean a little more conservative than liberal, but comparative to the politics many Mormons seem to have these days, I'm probably decidedly Liberal in comparison.

[JohnsonJones]

7 hours ago, anatess2 said:

This is not true.  Paul Ryan spent his entire career prior to running for 2012 VP race trying to persuade people to fix Social Security by locking it away from public claws by putting it in private investments controlled by the individual.  He started with a measly... I think it was 5%... of each individual's SS contributions.  Both Democrats and a lot of Republicans rejected the idea stating that the individual is too stupid to know how to invest their own SS money (they could be right... after all, what are we gonna do with the people who loses their SS money on a stock gamble, eh?).  But yeah, at least Ryan cares.  And I like him even if a lot of Trump fans do not.  In any case, the only way you can fix SS is if you allow people to control their own money and allow them to go to the poor house if they are unwise.  

Have you seen what people get with SS these days?  People who try to live only on their SS ARE in the poor house already.  Why do you think someone who should be in their retirement (though I also admit I was very UNWISE with money when I was younger and spent it all rather than investing like I should have) is still working when they should be enjoying their "golden" years (also, I tend to enjoy it, which I suppose may also be part of why I am still a historian.  Also to be honest, there are OTHER reasons that I am still doing the stuff I do which have nothing to do with money, but additional money definitely helps.  If I was to try to live ONLY on what SS would bring in, my quality of life would be greatly decreased).

Edited January 9, 2018 by JohnsonJones