The Meaning of Atonement

[wenglund]

On 12/29/2017 at 10:30 AM, brlenox said:

...at least for me these things are all true and then some. However, the ways I am off are nothing compared to the value of the spiritual insights that I once in a while contribute...but of course beauty is in the eye of the beholder.  

I agree. Accordingly, since you have done extensive research into the mechanics of the atonement, I would be interested to hear what was your favorite, or couple of favorite insights, particularly in terms of enabling you to better seek Christ and/or appreciate his redemptive sacrifice.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-.

[Traveler]

19 hours ago, Carborendum said:

I actually agree with most of what you've written here.  But you seem to be posting this as a "rebuttal" of sorts to my post.  I don't really see how it is.  They're not mutually exclusive.  What is your intent?

 

Seldom do I completely disagree with anyone.  Likewise, seldom do I feel that there is little or nothing to add – even to my own inputs.   I would hope than you never think of my posts as rival or rebuttal but as a “type and shadow” of the same important core principles.  For example, often Jesus would add to a topic by saying – “The kingdom of Heaven is like - - -.  Usually what was in the - - - was intended not as a correction but expansion.  Not that my idea is greater – just a little different.

One point that is different for me – when I go through one of those spiritual “Ah Ha!” moments I do get it but before I am over my jubilation of the moment it would seem that the universe has expanded and though I have greater understanding I realize that my knowledge is less than I thought and my questions increase exponentially.  Also, I like to emphasize ideas I believe to worth continual consideration.

 

The Traveler

[brlenox]

10 hours ago, wenglund said:

I agree. Accordingly, since you have done extensive research into the mechanics of the atonement, I would be interested to hear what was your favorite, or couple of favorite insights, particularly in terms of enabling you to better seek Christ and/or appreciate his redemptive sacrifice.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-.

Wade, you are thoughtful person, thank you for inquiring.  I provided a list of just a few things here:

If by chance any of these subjects interest you feel free to choose one.  The Mercy and Justice relationship is perhaps my favorite of the list.  For the most part though no one thing enables one to better seek Christ etc as is the nature of your inquiry.  You are seeking Christ in the very process of seeking any aspect of the atonement.  However, some things increase that sense of awe of God and His Son's brilliance and wisdom.  People are always saying God is limited by law and that he has to obey certain ones without option.  However, after one gains insight as to how the Lord juxtaposes laws against themselves and how he positions requirements and such he can accomplish whatever he wants.  The laws help maintain order in the kingdoms but they do not limit his hand.  There are a dozen other things that are elevated.  Another is the sheer genius of scripture.  So much is right before us in the forms of allegory and types and shadows and they just dance just outside of our periphery.  Those who have stated they need no more understandings, shall most likely have none, but should one inquire of the Lord the scriptures are rich with insight.  Anyway let me know what interests you on the list or if you have another burning question in your heart ask that.  Chances are that I may have covered just about anything you can conceive and if not then it provides something else for me to study. 

[Traveler]

40 minutes ago, brlenox said:

Wade, you are thoughtful person, thank you for inquiring.  I provided a list of just a few things here:

If by chance any of these subjects interest you feel free to choose one.  The Mercy and Justice relationship is perhaps my favorite of the list.  For the most part though no one thing enables one to better seek Christ etc as is the nature of your inquiry.  You are seeking Christ in the very process of seeking any aspect of the atonement.  However, some things increase that sense of awe of God and His Son's brilliance and wisdom.  People are always saying God is limited by law and that he has to obey certain ones without option.  However, after one gains insight as to how the Lord juxtaposes laws against themselves and how he positions requirements and such he can accomplish whatever he wants.  The laws help maintain order in the kingdoms but they do not limit his hand.  There are a dozen other things that are elevated.  Another is the sheer genius of scripture.  So much is right before us in the forms of allegory and types and shadows and they just dance just outside of our periphery.  Those who have stated they need no more understandings, shall most likely have none, but should one inquire of the Lord the scriptures are rich with insight.  Anyway let me know what interests you on the list or if you have another burning question in your heart ask that.  Chances are that I may have covered just about anything you can conceive and if not then it provides something else for me to study. 

 

If one follows the conversation between @Carborendum and myself – there is a subtle point that may be missed.  We think of study and we imagine our search as study of scripture and other printed material.  A very important point may be missed.  Our study and research should include meditations and other things other than the “written word”.  For example – more reverence during the participation of the “sacrament” and greater devotion in keeping the Sabbath day holy.  Not in terms of do’s and don’ts but in terms improving our meditations and resolve to use the Holy Ghost to become one with the Father and the Son.

I do not want to distract from doctrinal study but rather to make emphasis and to make sure that our searching for Christ includes obedience to the laws and covenants of the Gospel and the magnifying of our callings and service to others.

 

The Traveler

[the Ogre]

1 minute ago, Traveler said:

. . . between @Carborendum and myself . . . Our study and research should include meditations and other things other than the “written word”.  For example – more reverence during the participation of the “sacrament” and greater devotion in keeping the Sabbath day holy [&] improving our meditations and resolve to use the Holy Ghost to become one with the Father and the Son.

I do not want to distract from doctrinal study but rather to make emphasis and to make sure that our searching for Christ includes obedience to the laws and covenants of the Gospel and the magnifying of our callings and service to others.

 

The Traveler

I agree with the above. So often we get bogged down in the intellectual study of the scriptures and gospel and forget to also delve deeper into the spiritual and emotional depths associated with the gospel that are hard if not impossible to quantify intellectually through language and discussion. The solo attempt through "meditation and resolve" to become as one with the F-ther and S-n through the H-ly Ghost should be our aim and intellectualism is rarely the method that gets us there.

[brlenox]

6 minutes ago, Traveler said:

 

If one follows the conversation between @Carborendum and myself – there is a subtle point that may be missed.  We think of study and we imagine our search as study of scripture and other printed material.  A very important point may be missed.  Our study and research should include meditations and other things other than the “written word”.  For example – more reverence during the participation of the “sacrament” and greater devotion in keeping the Sabbath day holy.  Not in terms of do’s and don’ts but in terms improving our meditations and resolve to use the Holy Ghost to become one with the Father and the Son.

I do not want to distract from doctrinal study but rather to make emphasis and to make sure that our searching for Christ includes obedience to the laws and covenants of the Gospel and the magnifying of our callings and service to others.

 

The Traveler

Brigham Young once made a statement that he wasn't worried about teaching some things that perhaps he should not as he knew that the people would not be able to grasp what he taught unless the spirit was with them to teach them.  While I may not come near to the mysteries as Brigham, I have found this to be consistently true.

To that point, I believe yours is matched.  Yet, there are even those who may be ostensibly worthy by virtue of their obedience and diligence in keeping the commandments and yet they do not learn anything new for, what might be deemed disinterest or simply laziness.  It does take work to make it ones own understandings.  I can explain some things and yet most cannot turn around and then explain them to another for while they can see how the material is correct, they cannot teach that which they have not given heed and diligence into acquiring.

You commented earlier on your experience on forums...mine has been that there is not much to worry about for distracting from doctrinal study. Few seem interested in actual doctrinal study and are more interested in opinions.

 

[wenglund]

On 12/27/2017 at 4:00 PM, brlenox said:

For perhaps 12 or so years Cleon Skousen's version of the atonement, which he claims was taught him by Apostle Widstoe, was the best thing I had ever run into on the atonement. It was infinitely better than the average members response of "we just can't understand the atonement". I applaud Cleon for at least acknowledging that there is so much more that we can understand about the atonement and setting an example of making the effort to go beyond the no fly zone.

That said, few people will ever put the effort into the process to understand where Cleon misses the mark.  You actually are at the root of the issue now as Cleon mis-emphasizes the role of God's creations in the narrative giving them far too much "power" in the process of God remaining God. His emphasis places God at the mercy of all of the intelligences and it simply is not that way.  And in fact properly understood that part of Cleon's narrative fades away into obscurity.

Nonetheless, there is not much information out there that really delves into the Atonement and I consider it a doctrine that has so many moving parts that it is purely the exhausting efforts of years of study that provides the necessary fodder for the spirit to teach you of these things.  When I study, I write in a Thesis sort of format. I have been working on my atonement document for, I think it is going on ten years now and it is over 600 pages long. The challenge becomes that even after you learn the material there is very little opportunity to share as without building on the line upon line foundation others cannot grasp the fascinating intricacies that becomes the greatest event to ever take place.

I can give you the benefit of some of the questions to ask that must be understood before you can work your way through the process.

You must grasp the material of the Fall.

1.) Who is the law Giver in the Garden.  Who is the judge in the Garden?

2.) Why was a death sentence an appropriate judgement for Adam and Eve?  Why was Satan cast out, when Adam and Eve were allowed a Savior. What kind of people dwell in a telestial state.  Why is that state an appropriate place for fallen mankind?

3.) What does Alma 12 provide us in understanding about who becomes the lawgiver and the second set of laws we must now conform to. Why is this significant

4.)What does the story of Cain and Able teach us about the privilege accorded to those who have shed innocent blood? 

5.) What really is Alma 34:11-16 saying. You'll have to make a paradigm shift just to grasp it.

6.) What prevents God the Father from exercising mercy without Christ shedding his blood? Why can't he just say, "Never mind Son, just pick the friends you like and bring them on home"?

7.) If mercy cannot rob justice, but justice requires a specific breach be rectified then the only way for justice to not be robbed is for justice to demand mercy.  Otherwise mercy cannot fulfill the demands of justice because justice has its specific requirements. It is not a substitution program. How is that accomplished?

8.) Why would God cease to be God if mercy robbed justice?

9.) The best quote I have ever found which indicates that Elder Eyring clearly understands a key element of the atonement is this one:

Most will read it and not see anything of significance. Expand on this quote for what it is really saying and one of the key elements of the atonement will be manifest - this is related to number 5 above.  I could go on with more questions but this is enough for your first five years of study...

Okay. I can see why the mercy and justice relationship is your favorite, particularly the part I highlighted in bold above. I had never thought of it that way. But it is profound and sweat to the taste. It tells me that justice isn't merely an instrument of punishment. It is also an instrument for ending the "shedding of blood" (which I understand to be a metaphor, or worst case example, of consequences of sin). Or, said another way, justice demands mercy as a way of ultimately preventing justice from perpetrating the very things it was designed to deter or stop--i.e. "the shedding of blood."

This reminds me of my childhood when I got spanked for hitting my siblings. It was somewhat confusing to my immature mind to get hit to teach me not to hit .However, when I was a teen, my brothers and I did something wrong (I don't recall what), and we were taken to the back room where we typically got spanked, but instead of my Dad spanking us, he had us spank him. That pretty much ended my disobedience because it crushed me to spank my Dad for something we had done wrong. It was, on its own level, the great and final sacrifice that put an end to hitting and spanking.

Now, it wasn't until I read what you said, and this after reading and re-reading Alma 34 over the last several days with the sense that there was something in there that I was supposed to get, but wasn't,, that it all, including spanking my dad, took on a whole other level of meaning. I am grateful for that.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited January 1, 2018 by wenglund

[brlenox]

2 hours ago, wenglund said:

Okay. I can see why the mercy and justice relationship is your favorite, particularly the part I highlighted in bold above. I had never thought of it that way. But it is profound and sweat to the taste. It tells me that justice isn't merely an instrument of punishment. It is also an instrument for ending the "shedding of blood" (which I understand to be a metaphor, or worst case example, of consequences of sin). Or, said another way, justice demands mercy as a way of ultimately preventing justice from perpetrating the very things it was designed to deter or stop--i.e. "the shedding of blood."

This reminds me of my childhood when I got spanked for hitting my siblings. It was somewhat confusing to my immature mind to get hit to teach me not to hit .However, when I was a teen, my brothers and I did something wrong (I don't recall what), and we were taken to the back room where we typically got spanked, but instead of my Dad spanking us, he had us spank him. That pretty much ended my disobedience because it crushed me to spank my Dad for something we had done wrong. It was, on its own level, the great and final sacrifice that put an end to hitting and spanking.

Now, it wasn't until I read what you said, and this after reading and re-reading Alma 34 over the last several days with the sense that there was something in there that I was supposed to get, but wasn't,, that it all, including spanking my dad, took on a whole other level of meaning. I am grateful for that.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

If you can touch that, you have gotten the essence of the spiritual sense of the matter which is not dependent on necessarily understanding the how it is accomplished. Any idea on how God the Father would achieve getting Justice to demand mercy?

 

Your father seems a profoundly insightful man.  Not many would choose such an impacting methodology. 

Edited January 1, 2018 by brlenox

[wenglund]

59 minutes ago, brlenox said:

 Any idea on how God the Father would achieve getting Justice to demand mercy?

What I had originally gathered from your statement is that justice, by its very nature, demanded mercy. In other words, it would be unjust to not be merciful. But, given your question, I may be wrong. 

Assuming your are correct (and it appears that you are given v. 15 of Alma 34) then the Father got justice to demand mercy by way of the great and last sacrifice (ibid) , though  evidently only for those with faith unto repentance (vs 15-16).

How, exactly, the great and last sacrifice gets justice to demand mercy for the penitent, is something (the mechanics if you will) that I will have to contemplate for awhile since I don't know off the top of my head. Feel free to offer your own insights if you wish.

[Update: After reading through Alma 12, I get the sense that justice, in and of itself, requires "death" as a consequence of sin. However, through the great and last sacrifice (atonement and resurrection), Christ met the requirements of justice, thereby demanding mercy upon those that had sinned--otherwise, justice would have exacted twice the penalty of death than would have been just.  The reason  justice can only demand mercy for those who repent is because the great and last sacrifice only satisfies justice for the first death. It has no bearing on the second death--which is the result of a hardened heart unto non-repentance. Am I getting close?]

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited January 1, 2018 by wenglund
Update

[brlenox]

1 hour ago, wenglund said:

What I had originally gathered from your statement is that justice, by its very nature, demanded mercy. In other words, it would be unjust to not be merciful. But, given your question, I may be wrong. 

Assuming your are correct (and it appears that you are given v. 15 of Alma 34) then the Father got justice to demand mercy by way of the great and last sacrifice (ibid) , though  evidently only for those with faith unto repentance (vs 15-16).

How, exactly, the great and last sacrifice gets justice to demand mercy for the penitent, is something (the mechanics if you will) that I will have to contemplate for awhile since I don't know off the top of my head. Feel free to offer your own insights if you wish.

[Update: After reading through Alma 12, I get the sense that justice, in and of itself, requires "death" as a consequence of sin. However, through the great and last sacrifice (atonement and resurrection), Christ met the requirements of justice, thereby demanding mercy upon those that had sinned--otherwise, justice would have exacted twice the penalty of death than would have been just.  The reason  justice can only demand mercy for those who repent is because the great and last sacrifice only satisfies justice for the first death. It has no bearing on the second death--which is the result of a hardened heart unto non-repentance. Am I getting close?]

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Many good insights.  Justice does demand mercy is correct, Alma 41 gives us insight into this.  However Alma 41 is applicable to the Law of Christ.  Nonetheless, whatever is by the law of Christ is also merited by the Law of God the Father which I call the Law of the Garden.  So pre-fall.  Your second sentence is also correct.  

Your third sentence is he crux of the issue of the mechanics of the mercy - justice paradigm.  It is important in considering this one to separate the requirements of the Law of the Garden, which is a key factor of what the Atonement accomplishes.  IT reconciles us to the Father based on the breech of the first law.

Your fourth paragraph slides into overlapping the demands of the law of the garden and the blessings of the Law of Christ which only prevails because the atonement was effective. We have to separate the demands of each to put proper perspectives in place. In Alma 12 the first law has already been adjudicated.  The death sentence has been rendered. Technically in a legal sense God the Father has exiled us from his kingdom. Again, purely from a legal sense we no longer have any claim on God the Father - he has rendered judgement and the judgement was death. Rectifying this is only accomplished by satisfying the demands of the first law of the Garden which the atonement accomplishes.  Keep in mind though that the breech of the law of the Garden predates our sins.  Some price is being demanded that when satisfied activates the second set of laws mentioned in Alma 12.  The mechanics of that transition is very significant and brilliantly accomplished. It is very helpful if you can change your focus from mans perspective and put it on God's perspective.  It is his mind you are trying to see into to make this connection. 

I am going to leave you with this as you are doing so very well.  I have to spend a few moments out working on the Car before I lose daylight...so I will check back. 

Edited January 1, 2018 by brlenox

[wenglund]

2 hours ago, brlenox said:

Many good insights.  Justice does demand mercy is correct, Alma 41 gives us insight into this.  However Alma 41 is applicable to the Law of Christ.  Nonetheless, whatever is by the law of Christ is also merited by the Law of God the Father which I call the Law of the Garden.  So pre-fall.  Your second sentence is also correct.  

Your third sentence is he crux of the issue of the mechanics of the mercy - justice paradigm.  It is important in considering this one to separate the requirements of the Law of the Garden, which is a key factor of what the Atonement accomplishes.  IT reconciles us to the Father based on the breech of the first law.

Your fourth paragraph slides into overlapping the demands of the law of the garden and the blessings of the Law of Christ which only prevails because the atonement was effective. We have to separate the demands of each to put proper perspectives in place. In Alma 12 the first law has already been adjudicated.  The death sentence has been rendered. Technically in a legal sense God the Father has exiled us from his kingdom. Again, purely from a legal sense we no longer have any claim on God the Father - he has rendered judgement and the judgement was death. Rectifying this is only accomplished by satisfying the demands of the first law of the Garden which the atonement accomplishes.  Keep in mind though that the breech of the law of the Garden predates our sins.  Some price is being demanded that when satisfied activates the second set of laws mentioned in Alma 12.  The mechanics of that transition is very significant and brilliantly accomplished. It is very helpful if you can change your focus from mans perspective and put it on God's perspective.  It is his mind you are trying to see into to make this connection. 

I am going to leave you with this as you are doing so very well.  I have to spend a few moments out working on the Car before I lose daylight...so I will check back. 

I guess that the first step is to figure out what is the Law of the Garden versus the Law of Christ.

Correct me if I am wrong, but the Law of the Garden appears to be that we may freely partake of the fruited trees, including the Tree of :Life, but not partake of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, lest we die.

Whereas, the Law of Christ appears to be that we may cursedly partake of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil,  but not of the Tree of Life, lest we live forever in the natural state when partaking, be it unto eternal death or eternal life. 

I take this to mean that once one partakes of the gospel, they are no longer on neutral ground. Either they will eventually harden their hearts and become bound by the chains of hell, or they will eventually have a broken heart and contrite spirit and become subject unto God.

Now, I may still be looking at this from man's perspective rather than God's, and so to understand what you have hinted at, perhaps I need to reconsider.

I welcome input from whomever.

[Update: maybe it would help to look at the laws in terms of antecedent and consequences, or in other words what happens when one obeys the law versus when one disobeys. What I find interesting about the two laws (Garden vs Christ), is that the consequence seem on one level to both be the inverse of the other, while on another level to be the same.

For example, on one level obedience to the Law of the Garden brought eternal life, and disobedience brought death, though on another level disobedience brought life (i.e. the capacity to procreate and live on through one's posterity), and obedience brought death (the inability to procreate and live on through one's posterity.

On one level, obedience to the Law of Christ (assuming I understand it correctly), will bring death  (as to the things of the world)  and disobedience brings life (as to the things of the world), whereas on another level, obedience brings eternal life (as to the things of God--at least for those with a broken heart and contrite spirit) and death to those who disobey (i.e. the second death, or death to the things of God for those with hardened hearts and stiff necks).,

Or, I could be over thinking this.  ]

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited January 2, 2018 by wenglund
Update

[Grunt]

I appreciate this dialogue.  It makes me look up half the things you folks are talking about, but I suppose that's the idea.

[brlenox]

2 hours ago, wenglund said:

I guess that the first step is to figure out what is the Law of the Garden versus the Law of Christ.

Correct me if I am wrong, but the Law of the Garden appears to be that we may freely partake of the fruited trees, including the Tree of :Life, but not partake of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, lest we die.

Whereas, the Law of Christ appears to be that we may cursedly partake of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil,  but not of the Tree of Life, lest we live forever in the natural state when partaking, be it unto eternal death or eternal life. 

I take this to mean that once one partakes of the gospel, they are no longer on neutral ground. Either they will eventually harden their hearts and become bound by the chains of hell, or they will eventually have a broken heart and contrite spirit and become subject unto God.

Now, I may still be looking at this from man's perspective rather than God's, and so to understand what you have hinted at, perhaps I need to reconsider.

I welcome input from whomever.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

 

Let's look at this image and see if we can get our thousand words out of it. I am going to forgo scriptures and quotes as that seems to be where people get bored and the posts get long.  The first image represents Adam and Eve living in the Garden of Eden interacting freely with God and Jesus Christ.  They do something wrong.  We have not discussed what that is and it is helpful but not necessary at this moment.  Still the King of the Kingdom - God the Father - convenes a court to try the three individuals involved with breaking the law of the King. It is his law and he is responsible to see to its adjudication and to ensure that justice is rendered.  The source for this is the temple.  He questions the three individuals and determines three levels of culpability. We won't go into this either for now.  However, the law has been served and justice has been rendered and the crime was determined to be of such serious nature that a death penalty is warranted.  The one individual is banished and the two are exiled with the promise of a Savior.

The end result is image number 2.  Man is spiritually dead.  They no longer have free access to God the father as he has exiled them from His kingdom.  Thus they no longer have claim on The Father as he has in not so many words stated that if you cannot abide the law of my kingdom (D & C 88:22) you cannot remain here.  So they are remanded over to a telestial state which based on their crime is the only kingdom that will abide their actions.

Figure three is very important.  Figure 3 illustrates that during Christ's time on the earth he remains a citizen of God the Fathers Kingdom as he has never broken the law of the Garden of Eden.  It also indicates that man remains outside of God the Fathers Kingdom but that Christ reigns as the king of this lower kingdom in which man resides. Now the process of actually being crowned the king, requires Christ accomplish somethings.  We don't have time but there are laws in Judaism, ie the Old Testament,   that defines how heir-ship is achieved.  One of them is that the heir must complete the tasks that his Father gives him. 

Now, we learn in the very first story of the Old Testament  from Cain and Abel that when innocent blood is shed, that innocent blood has claim on the law giver for justice.  Hence we note Jehovah rehearsing to Cain that his brothers blood cried out from the earth and a penalty was enacted based on the claims for justice.  Anytime any of us are unjustly treated we have the right of claim for justice of our King, Jesus Christ.  There are numerous scriptures outlining this relationship which we are forgoing in deference to brevity. 

So when innocent blood of mankind is shed we look to our law giver.  However in the case of Christ he becomes the ultimate case of innocent blood being shed and it is mankind that sheds that blood.  This is the crux of the issue with Justice and Mercy.  When Christ's innocent blood cries out it cries out to the King of the kingdom to which he remains a citizen. On all the earth, The Savior is the only member of God the Fathers kingdom who remains under his law and protection.  All - everyone of the rest are under ban of exile and actually are enemies to God (for now from a legal perspective of the law).  Christ when he exercises his appeal to his Father for Justice sets the conditions of what occurs next.  Mankind has already been exiled and so the demand for justice places the Father in a position opposed to mankind. Justice demands that something be done to repair the Son.  He has been innocently hung on a tree and suffered intense and horrific pain which is required but we will bypass that as well in this abbreviated review. As a citizen of God the Fathers kingdom, justice demands recompense (D&C 112:30-34) to the Savior.  The Father is held to the demands of Justice at this point.  If he should offer up mercy to mankind then justice would be robbed and because he failed as the law giver and adjudicator of his kingdom, of which Christ is a Citizen, he would cease to be God because the King is accountable to sustaining and providing for the law of his kingdom or else the kingdoms members would question the laws of the kingdom in which they reside and would withhold their sustainment of their King. 

However, Christ is the murdered one. He is the victim and as such when he looks to his Father for justice, his intense level of suffering has earned him certain privileges (D&C 45:4) By the demands of the Laws of justice a murderer can demand the life of the one (s) who murdered him.  So justice demands that the victim be granted that which is within the bounds of the law to grant.  So and here is the brilliance of the plan, Christ says that he will be made whole if the lives of those who murdered him will be remanded to him for judgment.  He requests mercy for all mankind.  Now we have justice demanding that Christ be made whole and Christ has requested mercy. Now we have the demands of the laws of Justice demanding mercy as their full payment.  Now the Father is able to fulfill the demands of justice by offering mercy and justice is not robbed and God the Father is now exactly were he wanted to be - able to offer mercy to his children upon the conditions that will be established in the second set of laws - the law of Christ.  Thus the law of God the Fathers Kingdom remains intact and mercy satisfies justice.

I'll stop for now.  Really this should inspire a dozen more questions as one ponders upon as there are many things that pivot from here.  As the final clue I will leave you with the words of Elder Eyring as earlier:

Quote

 

Question: What exactly is the atonement and how can I receive its blessings and one thing I have always wondered but have never been able to find my answer to is how do I access the atonement. Is all I have to do is just ask God for the atonement to take place in my life?

 President Eyring: Could I … First thing to do is to get a few facts straight.  The atonement was something that Jesus Christ Did.  It's not a thing itself he atoned for our sins and he paid the price to allow us to be forgiven and to be resurrected...alright, so it's what he did that qualified him to give us forgiveness to change our hearts and it's the Holy Ghost that is doing that.It's not the atonement as if it is a thing itself. 

 The atonement is something the Savior did and the Father has given Him, because of that great sacrifice that He made for us, the power to forgive us.  And so when you feel forgiveness that is not the atonement - that's the Savior giving you a feeling of forgiveness because of the atonement.(President Henry B. Eyring, Face To Face, March 4th 2017 )

 

Now there is a remarkable principle that will only be visible if your understanding is adequate and heart desirous but it takes us to the next aspect of how things work.

Edited January 2, 2018 by brlenox

[wenglund]

49 minutes ago, brlenox said:

 

Let's look at this image and see if we can get our thousand words out of it. I am going to forgo scriptures and quotes as that seems to be where people get bored and the posts get long.  The first image represents Adam and Eve living in the Garden of Eden interacting freely with God and Jesus Christ.  They do something wrong.  We have not discussed what that is and it is helpful but not necessary at this moment.  Still the King of the Kingdom - God the Father - convenes a court to try the three individuals involved with breaking the law of the King. It is his law and he is responsible to see to its adjudication and to ensure that justice is rendered.  The source for this is the temple.  He questions the three individuals and determines three levels of culpability. We won't go into this either for now.  However, the law has been served and justice has been rendered and the crime was determined to be of such serious nature that a death penalty is warranted.  The one individual is banished and the two are exiled with the promise of a Savior.

The end result is image number 2.  Man is spiritually dead.  They no longer have free access to God the father as he has exiled them from His kingdom.  Thus they no longer have claim on The Father as he has in not so many words stated that if you cannot abide the law of my kingdom (D & C 88:22) you cannot remain here.  So they are remanded over to a telestial state which based on their crime is the only kingdom that will abide their actions.

Figure three is very important.  Figure 3 illustrates that during Christ's time on the earth he remains a citizen of God the Fathers Kingdom as he has never broken the law of the Garden of Eden.  It also indicates that man remains outside of God the Fathers Kingdom but that Christ reigns as the king of this lower kingdom in which man resides. Now the process of actually being crowned the king, requires Christ accomplish somethings.  We don't have time but there are laws in Judaism, ie the Old Testament,   that defines how heir-ship is achieved.  One of them is that the heir must complete the tasks that his Father gives him. 

Now, we learn in the very first story of the Old Testament  from Cain and Abel that when innocent blood is shed, that innocent blood has claim on the law giver for justice.  Hence we note Jehovah rehearsing to Cain that his brothers blood cried out from the earth and a penalty was enacted based on the claims for justice.  Anytime any of us are unjustly treated we have the right of claim for justice of our King, Jesus Christ.  There are numerous scriptures outlining this relationship which we are forgoing in deference to brevity. 

So when innocent blood of mankind is shed we look to our law giver.  However in the case of Christ he becomes the ultimate case of innocent blood being shed and it is mankind that sheds that blood.  This is the crux of the issue with Justice and Mercy.  When Christ's innocent blood cries out it cries out to the King of the kingdom to which he remains a citizen. On all the earth, The Savior is the only member of God the Fathers kingdom who remains under his law and protection.  All - everyone of the rest are under ban of exile and actually are enemies to God (for now from a legal perspective of the law).  Christ when he exercises his appeal to his Father for Justice sets the conditions of what occurs next.  Mankind has already been exiled and so the demand for justice places the Father in a position opposed to mankind. Justice demands that something be done to repair the Son.  He has been innocently hung on a tree and suffered intense and horrific pain which is required but we will bypass that as well in this abbreviated review. As a citizen of God the Fathers kingdom, justice demands recompense to the Savior.  The Father is held to the demands of Justice at this point.  If he should offer up mercy to mankind then justice would be robbed and because he failed as the law giver and adjudicator of his kingdom, of which Christ is a Citizen, he would cease to be God because the King is accountable to sustaining and providing for the law of his kingdom or else the kingdoms members would question the laws of the kingdom in which they reside and would withhold their sustainment of their King. 

However, Christ is the murdered one. He is the victim and as such when he looks to his Father for justice, his intense level of suffering has earned him certain privileges (D&C 45:4) 
By the demands of the Laws of justice a murderer can demand the life of the one (s) who murdered him.  So justice demands that the victim be granted that which is within the bounds of the law to grant.  So and here is the brilliance of the plan, Christ says that he will be made whole if the lives of those who murdered him will be remanded to him for judgment.  He requests mercy for all mankind.  Now we have justice demanding that Christ be made whole and Christ has requested mercy. Now we have the demands of the laws of Justice demanding mercy as their full payment.  Now the Father is able to fulfill the demands of justice by offering mercy and justice is not robbed and God the Father is now exactly were he wanted to be - able to offer mercy to his children upon the conditions that will be established in the second set of laws - the law of Christ.  Thus the law of God the Fathers Kingdom remains intact and mercy satisfies justice.

I'll stop for now.  Really this should inspire a dozen more questions as one ponders upon as there are many things that pivot from here.  As the final clue I will leave you with the words of Elder Eyring as earlier:

Simple. Beautiful.  And, amazingly profound.

I don't know about dozens of questions, but one that immediately comes to mind is how are Adam and Eve (which I view as representations of all of mankind) brought back into the kingdom of God through Christ? In other words, how are things returned to figure 1--at least for those capable of abiding the Celestial Kingdom? (Am I correct in assuming that those who inherit the Terrestrial Kingdom will abide that depicted in figure 3, while those who inherit the Telestial Kingdom will abide that depicted in figure 2 , while those in outer darkness will abide the non-depicted figure in which we find Satan?)

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Now there is a remarkable principle that will only be visible if your understanding is adequate and heart desirous but it takes us to the next aspect of how things work.

My understanding may be inadequate at this point, and require considerably more plumbing and exploring the depths, but my heart suspects that since God, by virtue of the Great and Last Sacrifice, has given power to the Son to forgive, then the Son now has power within his own kingdom, to grant his subjects the power to forgive themselves and others--to the extent that his subjects are just and merciful and forgiving.

Wonderful stuff!

Thanks, -Wade Englund-.

Edited January 2, 2018 by wenglund

[brlenox]

1 hour ago, wenglund said:

Simple. Beautiful.  And, amazingly profound.

I don't know about dozens of questions, but one that immediately comes to mind is how are Adam and Eve (which I view as representations of all of mankind) brought back into the kingdom of God through Christ? In other words, how are things returned to figure 1--at least for those capable of abiding the Celestial Kingdom? (Am I correct in assuming that those who inherit the Terrestrial Kingdom will abide that depicted in figure 3, while those who inherit the Telestial Kingdom will abide that depicted in figure 2 , while those in outer darkness will abide the non-depicted figure in which we find Satan?)

My understanding may be inadequate at this point, and require considerably more plumbing and exploring the depths, but my heart suspects that since God, by virtue of the Great and Last Sacrifice, has given power to the Son to forgive, then the Son now has power within his own kingdom, to grant his subjects the power to forgive themselves and others--to the extent that his subjects are just and merciful and forgiving.

Wonderful stuff!

Thanks, -Wade Englund-.

The figures have served their purpose. They are only to represent the stages of the fall and to illustrate the citizenship of Christ and why he alone can do what he does.  Kingdom assignment is an entirely separate end of the spectrum.  You are correct Adam and Eve represent all mankind except for little children who with Christ remains as citizens of God's Kingdom. Hence why it is such an abomination to claim they cannot be saved without baptism.  The essence is that God the Father cannot save the citizens of his Kingdom and knowingly sends them to die even though they broke no laws and deserved no punishment.  In essence the claim is that God the Father is a murderer and that is the abomination that is being perpetrated and why it is so offensive to God. IF you followed up on Grunts post about the more common theories of the atonement, the the material we just covered is where the divine infusion theory goes off.  It does not capture this relationship to justice and mercy.  I had never read these theories before but reading them and understanding the material very well it was evident on what points each had it's weaknesses.

As to your question of how Adam and Eve are returned to the Kingdom of God through Christ. - excellent question, one that I did not understand until about 5 years ago.  Again this requires another paradigm shift but you will recognize some sources of contributing answer material.

Malachi speaks to the sealing power of which Elisha returned.  Remember though that Malachi warns that this power must be returned "lest I come and smite the earth with a curse."  The curse then is what you are referencing.  The way has been opened by the atonement to allow other laws to come to bear on our eternal existence.  The doctrine of the priesthood embraces this material. The following verses will start to expand on this:

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Doctrine and Covenants 128:17-18

17 And again, in connection with this quotation I will give you a quotation from one of the prophets, who had his eye fixed on the restoration of the priesthood, the glories to be revealed in the last days, and in an especial manner this most glorious of all subjects belonging to the everlasting gospel, namely, the baptism for the dead; for Malachi says, last chapter, verses 5th and 6th: Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord: And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

18 I might have rendered a plainer translation to this, but it is sufficiently plain to suit my purpose as it stands. It is sufficient to know, in this case, that the earth will be smitten with a curse unless there is a welding link of some kind or other between the fathers and the children, upon some subject or other—and behold what is that subject? It is the baptism for the dead. For we without them cannot be made perfect; neither can they without us be made perfect. Neither can they nor we be made perfect without those who have died in the gospel also; for it is necessary in the ushering in of the dispensation of the fulness of times, which dispensation is now beginning to usher in, that a whole and complete and perfect union, and welding together of dispensations, and keys, and powers, and glories should take place, and be revealed from the days of Adam even to the present time. And not only this, but those things which never have been revealed from the foundation of the world, but have been kept hid from the wise and prudent, shall be revealed unto babes and sucklings in this, the dispensation of the fulness of times.

 

I have a dozen quotes that walk through each step of what is occurring in this process.  The verses above will hopefully get us moving in the right direction and following I will have to provide a couple of quotes.  None of this material is me.  It is all based on connecting the dots of insight found in scripture and prophetic utterance so I don't want to abuse the material by not showing how it connects to people of far more insight than I. They make the material meritable where my opinions would be worthless.   

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It was in the night vision that all this was shown to Daniel, and he saw the Son of Man come to the grand council, as he did to the first grand council in the valley of Adam-ondi-Ahman, and there he received the keys from Adam "and there was given to him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed." (Dan. 7: 13-14.) In this council Christ will take over the reins of government, officially, on this earth, and "the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the Most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him," even Jesus Christ. Until this grand council is held, Satan shall hold rule in the nations of the earth; but at that time thrones are to be cast down and man's rule shall come to an end -- for it is decreed that the Lord shall make an end of all nations. (D.C. 87:6.) Preparation for this work is now going on. Kingdoms are already tottering, some have fallen; but eventually they shall all go the way of the earth, and he shall come whose right it is to rule. Then shall he give the government to the saints of the Most High.

This council in the valley of Adam-ondi-Ahman is to be of the greatest importance to this world. At that time there will be a transfer of authority from the usurper and impostor, Lucifer, to the rightful King, Jesus Christ. Judgment will be set and all who have held keys will make their reports and deliver their stewardships, as they shall be required. Adam will direct this judgment, and then he will make his report, as the one holding the keys for this earth, to his Superior Officer, Jesus Christ. Our Lord will then assume the reins of government; directions will be given to the Priesthood; and He, whose right it is to rule, will be installed officially by the voice of the Priesthood there assembled. This grand council of Priesthood will be composed, not only of those who are faithful who now dwell on this earth, but also of the prophets and apostles of old, who have had directing authority. Others may also be there, but if so they will be there by appointment, for this is to be an official council called to attend to the most momentous matters ' concerning the destiny of this earth. ( Joseph Fielding Smith,The Way to Perfection, p.289-291)

 

The essence of this is that at some point after each dispensation has been welded together by the sealing power of an unbroken chain and then connected to the next dispensation that finally all dispensations will be turned over to Adam who is the presiding priesthood holder over all dispensations.  Then is the point of greatest significance, after all of this is done it is infused with efficacy it does not possess until the kingdom is presented to Christ and then it will be sealed through priesthood authority to Christ.  Now we cease to be separate from him but we are part of Him and as He alone has the right to return to His Father's kingdom all that is His and sealed by priesthood authority is required to be allowed passage into the Celestial kingdom as His rightful inheritance.   One more quote just to add substance to my thoughts above.

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“Adam Holds the Keys of Presidency. This, then, is the nature of the Priesthood; every man holding the Presidency of his dispensation, and one man holding the Presidency of them all, even Adam; and Adam receiving his Presidency and authority from the Lord, but cannot receive a fullness until Christ shall present the Kingdom to the Father, which shall be at the end of the last dispensation.” (Joseph Smith, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp 169.)

Your last paragraph is a bit rough. It may be just lack of time for idea buildup.  Your are essentially though correct if I understand you correctly.  I'll add this for now and let you work with it.  Now that Christ owns the second set of laws as defined in Alma 12 by virtue of his atonement it is he that seeks justice for the broken laws which is the foundation of his building kingdom.  Mosiah 15:12 defines a certain group in the phrase "these are they whose sins he has borne".  Though Christ has paid a price that exceeds any level of the sins of all mankind, thus being an infinite atonement, only a certain group is permitted his greatest blessings and these do not suffer for their own sins as they are under the law of mercy for their repentance and obedience.  Any that are unrepentant will suffer for their own sins as they will be fully under the law of justice as it applies to the second set of laws.  Either way though the law of justice permits something that is the crux how Christ accomplishes these things.  

If you are the victim in a parking lot fender bender justice would demand that you be recompensed.  However, justice will not prevent you from extending an act of forgiveness.  As the victim you have the right to extend mercy of your own accord.  This is why God requires that we forgive all who offend us.  One cannot demand justice against his offenders and yet seek mercy from God for your own offenses.  Whatever law you demand must be the law under which you yourself are judged.  So the "these are they whose sins he has borne" can be forgiven of all their sins as they are repentant and have been obedient and valiant.  However the rest must suffer "even as I have suffered which suffering caused myself even God to tremble because of pain." So At whatever time Christ feels adequate suffering by any given individual has been reached he can forgive them and permit the reward that suits them.  We do not have time to cover the Sons of Perdition but there are a few issues there.

This is it for now.  Yes your understanding is still inadequate, which is discernible by the way you are phrasing your questions. Even part of what we have discussed is still not firmed up for you. So you will need to work on this material for sometime before the spirit makes it yours.  However, you have come a long long ways and it feels like you have moved forward.  Thank you for asking.  If there are any more questions ... and in time there surely shall be, please feel free to ask.  

Also another note.  Before anyone can grasp this material they have to be a a certain spiritual level and level of humility themselves.  Over the years, I have found that 1 out of 50 will grasp the material while most will accuse you of being arrogant, condescending for the simple fact that you can say "no that is not correct" because you do of a fact know something.  So if you do make this yours and the spirit weaves it into your soul it can still bring a bit of sorrow for the difficulty of sharing special material.  Just a thought.

Edited January 2, 2018 by brlenox

[brlenox]

1 hour ago, wenglund said:

Simple. Beautiful.  And, amazingly profound.

I don't know about dozens of questions, but one that immediately comes to mind is how are Adam and Eve (which I view as representations of all of mankind) brought back into the kingdom of God through Christ? In other words, how are things returned to figure 1--at least for those capable of abiding the Celestial Kingdom? (Am I correct in assuming that those who inherit the Terrestrial Kingdom will abide that depicted in figure 3, while those who inherit the Telestial Kingdom will abide that depicted in figure 2 , while those in outer darkness will abide the non-depicted figure in which we find Satan?)

My understanding may be inadequate at this point, and require considerably more plumbing and exploring the depths, but my heart suspects that since God, by virtue of the Great and Last Sacrifice, has given power to the Son to forgive, then the Son now has power within his own kingdom, to grant his subjects the power to forgive themselves and others--to the extent that his subjects are just and merciful and forgiving.

Wonderful stuff!

Thanks, -Wade Englund-.

My last question of you for the moment.  We spent a bit on this thread discussing how worthless mechanics are to understanding.  Much of what we have been doing is discussing what we might call mechanics.  It basically takes the atonement from a 10,000 foot level down to a 10 foot level in certain respects acknowledging that we are only understanding that which we can formulate continuity for in our minds. 

The question is did this not, or will it not cause you to grow more to love your Savior and does it not garner a sense of profound awe at the magnificence of how God accomplished his goals by simply managing laws that might at a certain level have seemed restrictive to God but now we see he moves through the universe all things submitted to his authority.

That's my question.

[brlenox]

This quote should have been in my response, again as a connecting bit of material as to how Christ joins that which is his and prevents the earth from being smitten with a curse.

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Jesus links all the prophets together, just as was indicated on the Mount of Transfiguration when Moses and Elias were there to join Jesus and Peter, James, and John (see Matthew 17:1-8). A similar linkage occurred later too, in the Kirtland temple, when Jesus was there with His modern prophet, Joseph Smith, and Moses, Elias, and Elijah (see D&C 110).The Prophet Joseph Smith taught that Moses received the holy endowment on a mountain top. President Joseph Fielding Smith expressed the further opinion that when sacred priesthood keys were passed on the Mount of Transfiguration (see Teachings, p. 158), the holy endowment was given to Peter, James, and John (see Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, comp. Bruce R. McConkie, 3 vols. [Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1954-56], 2:165).

 

[wenglund]

3 hours ago, brlenox said:

My last question of you for the moment.  We spent a bit on this thread discussing how worthless mechanics are to understanding.  Much of what we have been doing is discussing what we might call mechanics.  It basically takes the atonement from a 10,000 foot level down to a 10 foot level in certain respects acknowledging that we are only understanding that which we can formulate continuity for in our minds. 

The question is did this not, or will it not cause you to grow more to love your Savior and does it not garner a sense of profound awe at the magnificence of how God accomplished his goals by simply managing laws that might at a certain level have seemed restrictive to God but now we see he moves through the universe all things submitted to his authority.

That's my question.

I had previously read the quotes in your earlier posts, and thought I understood them, but I hadn't made the mechanical connection you have pointed out. And, while I am still chewing the table-full of meat you presented, and will likely continue chewing for some time, and this with only a few spiritual teeth, I now see how grasping the mechanics does cause me to grow more to love our Savior and more profoundly appreciate the way God accomplishes his goals. So, I am glad I stepped back from being adversarial to being more humble, and I appreciate you patently pressing forward and shining more light, and/or reflecting the light of others..

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited January 2, 2018 by wenglund

[wenglund]

18 hours ago, brlenox said:

 

However, Christ is the murdered one. He is the victim and as such when he looks to his Father for justice, his intense level of suffering has earned him certain privileges (D&C 45:4) By the demands of the Laws of justice a murderer can demand the life of the one (s) who murdered him.  So justice demands that the victim be granted that which is within the bounds of the law to grant.  So and here is the brilliance of the plan, Christ says that he will be made whole if the lives of those who murdered him will be remanded to him for judgment.  He requests mercy for all mankind.  Now we have justice demanding that Christ be made whole and Christ has requested mercy. Now we have the demands of the laws of Justice demanding mercy as their full payment.  Now the Father is able to fulfill the demands of justice by offering mercy and justice is not robbed and God the Father is now exactly were he wanted to be - able to offer mercy to his children upon the conditions that will be established in the second set of laws - the law of Christ.  Thus the law of God the Fathers Kingdom remains intact and mercy satisfies justice.

I have a question about your use of the word "murder" in relation to Christ. If I recall correctly, the scriptures (I don't remember at the moment where), declare that the life of Christ couldn't be taken from him. He had to give up his life. This tells me that not only couldn't Christ be murdered, but that he must willing sacrifice his own life, if not also willingly suffer and shed his blood from every pour, to complete the Great and Last Sacrifice. 

If I am correct, how do you see this impacting your mechanical explanation of the atonement?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited January 2, 2018 by wenglund

[Traveler]

 

Perhaps missing from the discussion of @wenglund and @brlenox concerning justice and mercy: is law and agency.   There is no justice without law – neither is there a Kingdom or agency unless there is law.  We become individually conscripted to the law by our agency.

For the purpose of salvation and agency we have law.  There is Telestial, Terrestrial and Celestial Law.   Likewise, there is Telestial, Terrestrial and Celestial justice, mercy and agency.  In order for all these “things” to be; there must be a law giver and a proctor of the law for the law to be “fulfilled” and justice, mercy and agency applied according to those that conform, accept and apply the law to enable their citizenship in a kingdom.  Jesus is both the law giver and proctor of Telestial, Terrestrial and Celestial Law.  Those that do not abide by the Law given by Jesus become “subject” to Lucifer and the Law for which he is both giver and proctor.

 

The Traveler

[brlenox]

9 hours ago, wenglund said:

I have a question about your use of the word "murder" in relation to Christ. If I recall correctly, the scriptures (I don't remember at the moment where), declare that the life of Christ couldn't be taken from him. He had to give up his life. This tells me that not only couldn't Christ be murdered, but that his willing sacrifice of his own life, if not also his willingly suffering and shedding his blood from every pour, was somehow necessary to the Great and Last Sacrifice. 

If I am correct, how do you see this impacting your mechanical explanation of the atonement?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Good question.  Your interpretation though can be expanded by a review of many scriptures of which I will provide a couple for consideration. The definition for murder that we are considering is that one provided for in the Old Testament.  It provides for one description - murderer however, it describes two states of mind.  Though Christ had to permit the act, the scriptures measure the state of being a murderer from the perspective of intent: Please consider:

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Deuteronomy 19:4-12

4 And this is the case of the slayer, which shall flee thither, that he may live: Whoso killeth his neighbour ignorantly, whom he hated not in time past; (unintentional)

5 As when a man goeth into the wood with his neighbour to hew wood, and his hand fetcheth a stroke with the axe to cut down the tree, and the head slippeth from the helve, and lighteth upon his neighbour, that he die; he shall flee unto one of those cities, and live:

6 Lest the avenger of the blood pursue the slayer, while his heart is hot, and overtake him, because the way is long, and slay him; whereas he was not worthy of death, inasmuch as he hated him not in time past.

7 Wherefore I command thee, saying, Thou shalt separate three cities for thee.

8 And if the LORD thy God enlarge thy coast, as he hath sworn unto thy fathers, and give thee all the land which he promised to give unto thy fathers;

9 If thou shalt keep all these commandments to do them, which I command thee this day, to love the LORD thy God, and to walk ever in his ways; then shalt thou add three cities more for thee, beside these three:

10 That innocent blood be not shed in thy land, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance, and so blood be upon thee.

11 But if any man hate his neighbour, and lie in wait for him, and rise up against him, and smite him mortally that he die, and fleeth into one of these cities: (Intentional)

12 Then the elders of his city shall send and fetch him thence, and deliver him into the hand of the avenger of blood, that he may die.

13 Thine eye shall not pity him, but thou shalt put away the guilt of innocent blood from Israel, that it may go well with thee. (Also Joshua 20:9)

 

You'll note that verse 11 serves as the same definition to describe Son's of Perdition.

Edited January 2, 2018 by brlenox

[brlenox]

Let's expand our perception of how the Lord describes murderers and who might be considered such. Alma 5 is a record of Alma teaching:

            (Alma 5:2)

            2 And these are the words which he spake to the people in the church which was established in the city of Zarahemla, according to his own record, saying:

He is speaking to members of the church.  He reiterates this in verse 6:

(Alma 5:6.)

 

6 And now behold, I say unto you, my brethren, you that belong to this church, have you sufficiently retained in remembrance the captivity of your fathers? Yea, and have you sufficiently retained in remembrance his mercy and long-suffering towards them? And moreover, have ye sufficiently retained in remembrance that he has delivered their souls from hell?

 

Members of the church are in the audience as well as some non-members and these are accused of being murderers “and” guilty of great wickedness if certain conditions are not met.  These conditions are more specifically spelled out in verse 14 of Alma 5:

 

(Alma 5:14, 62.)

 

14 And now behold, I ask of you, my brethren of the church, have ye spiritually been born of God? Have ye received his image in your countenances? Have ye experienced this mighty change in your hearts?

 

62 I speak by way of command unto you that belong to the church; and unto those who do not belong to the church I speak by way of invitation, saying: Come and be baptized unto repentance, that ye also may be partakers of the fruit of the tree of life.

 

Now, clearly pointing to the audience, verse 23 indicates that all in the audience member and non-member alike would be considered murderers if they failed to be born again. 

 

           Alma 5:22-23

 

22 And now I ask of you, my brethren, how will any of you feel, if ye shall stand before the bar of God, having your garments stained with blood and all manner of filthiness? Behold, what will these things testify against you?

 

23 Behold will they not testify that ye are murderers, yea, and also that ye are guilty of all manner of wickedness?

 

The general nature of the condemnation and strength of the point seems a castigation of all those that are not born again – all who are not born again are judged as murderers.  Surely it cannot be construed that every one of the brethren who are members of the church are guilty of having plotted and carried the murder of another human being, yet in the context of this chapter it is clear that this is in regard to the sacrifice of Jesus Christ as he pays the price for all of our sins with his own life.  Our redemption requires his death and for us to waste that offering is to become complicit in the act. 

 

Nonetheless, I believe there are degrees of complicities.  Bruce R. McConkie in the book “A New Witness for the Articles of Faith”, describes the most complicit in Christ’s death, the sons of perdition:

 

In the Father's house are many mansions, many kingdoms, many degrees of glory and honor, many types and kinds of salvation. Jesus "saves all the works of his hands, except those sons of perdition who deny the Son after the Father has revealed him." These rebels are damned souls; these traitors become devils, angels to a devil, to dwell forever in misery in his kingdom. "They shall go away into everlasting punishment, which is endless punishment, which is eternal punishment, to reign with the devil and his angels in eternity, where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched, which is their torment." They are "the only ones on whom the second death shall have any power" after the resurrection; they are the only ones who shall not be "redeemed" from spiritual death "in the due time of the Lord, [and] after the sufferings of his wrath." (D&C 76:37-44.) As Alma expressed it: "They shall be as though there had been no redemption made; for they cannot be redeemed according to God's justice; and they cannot die, seeing there is no more corruption." (Alma 12:18.)( McConkie, Bruce R.A New Witness for the Articles of Faith [Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1985], 144.)

 

However, there are still lessor degrees of complicity than that of being a murderer for not all who fail to receive a celestial glory are such.  So what complicity remains?  Another quote by Brigham Young expresses some aspect of these lesser charges:

 

The wicked will endure the wrath of God and be “turned into hell, with all the nations that forget God.” What will be done with them there? Those who did not persecute the Son of God in the flesh while acting for themselves and following the direction of their own will—those who did not persecute the holy Priesthood of the Son of God—those who did not consent to the shedding of innocent blood—those who did not seek to obliterate the kingdom of God from the earth, will, by-and-by, be sought after. (Young, Brigham,  October 9, 1859,Intelligence, Etc.October 9, 1859. JoD, V. 7, p.282-91)

 

Sometimes it is a challenge to separate descriptions of those who are guilty of less from those who are sons of perdition. This takes a bit of effort, but by putting together a couple of verses and this Brigham Young quote it becomes more clear as to who it is that qualifies to be a son of perdition:

 

"Giving endowments to a great many proves their overthrow, through revealing things to them which they cannot keep. They are not worthy to receive them. Brother Heber takes the lead in giving endowments, and you may ask, "Why do you give such folks their endowments?" To qualify them to be devils, if they wish to be. The plan of salvation is calculated to make devils as well as Saints; for by and by we shall need some to serve as devils; and it takes almost as much knowledge to make a complete devil as it does to fit a man to go into the celestial kingdom of God, and become an heir to His kingdom. We want to complete the education of a number of such fellows; (Young, Brigham, JD Vol.4, p.372, , June 28, 1857)

 

To finalize this connect the dots process Hebrews provides the scriptural link that sustains what President Young is pointing too:

 

Hebrews 6:6

 

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

 

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

 

6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

 

In summary the sons of perdition are the only ones upon whom the second death has any effect.  Brigham Young points out that the process of becoming a devil is a parallel process to seeking eternal life, in that one must be completely knowledgeable of spiritual matters and perhaps even have had their endowments and then to have turned away from those covenants with a sure knowledge of what they are doing with no regard for the life of Jesus Christ.  Finally Hebrews 6 ties them to the act of killing Christ as their level of complicity.

 

While it is too sad a commentary to add complete quotes, Glen L. Pace wrote a letter to the leaders of the Church concerning a particular type of abuse that he had been assigned to investigate in which he notes that many of the perpetrators wore facades of good serving in the church and in many cases regular temple attendees. Yet the purpose of the letter was to note activities that were so abominable as to make one shudder in disbelief.  One can see then the potential that sons of perdition may be people of similar heart that would be active in their public church life but despicable in their private lives to a horrific degree.  

 

This is what drives Alma’s question’ of his brethren in verse 22:

 

Alma 5:22-23

 

22 And now I ask of you, my brethren, how will any of you feel, if ye shall stand before the bar of God, having your garments stained with blood and all manner of filthiness? Behold, what will these things testify against you?

 

23 Behold will they not testify that ye are murderers, yea, and also that ye are guilty of all manner of wickedness?

A subtle pattern is observed here in that they are charged first for their blood stained garments.  A temple example of those who do not keep the covenants of the Lord that would enable their garments to be washed clean in the blood of the Lamb[1].  The pattern then is the charge of innocent blood for which all the unrepentant are culpable but second is their own acts of filthiness committed by their own hands.  The response in verse 23 is that these conditions of being stained with blood and filthiness are the conditions that describe murderers and others that fail of the forgiveness of the Lord.

If you contemplate this it can lead you to what the sin for which Adam and Eve and Satan were judged for in the Fall and the degrees of severity in those judgements. This also adds meaning to why the just judgement of the Father was a charge which resulted in a death sentence being handed out. 

 

---

[1] Alma 13:11

11 Therefore they were called after this holy order, and were sanctified, and their garments were washed white through the blood of the Lamb.

 

Edited January 2, 2018 by brlenox

[brlenox]

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

 

Perhaps missing from the discussion of @wenglund and @brlenox concerning justice and mercy: is law and agency.   There is no justice without law – neither is there a Kingdom or agency unless there is law.  We become individually conscripted to the law by our agency.

For the purpose of salvation and agency we have law.  There is Telestial, Terrestrial and Celestial Law.   Likewise, there is Telestial, Terrestrial and Celestial justice, mercy and agency.  In order for all these “things” to be; there must be a law giver and a proctor of the law for the law to be “fulfilled” and justice, mercy and agency applied according to those that conform, accept and apply the law to enable their citizenship in a kingdom.  Jesus is both the law giver and proctor of Telestial, Terrestrial and Celestial Law.  Those that do not abide by the Law given by Jesus become “subject” to Lucifer and the Law for which he is both giver and proctor.

 

The Traveler

Probably due to my poor communication skills but the overwhelming theme of the aspects of the atonement we are dealing with is the overcoming of he demands of the Law of the Garden and the implications of those demands on how the Father and the Son work through preserving the Fathers Kingdom and still permit mercy to claim it's own.  We are only discussing a very specific section of the material I have on these things.  We skipped over the detail aspect of the Fall and the court that was held to determine culpability and role assignment where agency is more clearly referenced as a distinct element of that process.

[Traveler]

9 minutes ago, brlenox said:

Probably due to my poor communication skills but the overwhelming theme of the aspects of the atonement we are dealing with is the overcoming of he demands of the Law of the Garden and the implications of those demands on how the Father and the Son work through preserving the Fathers Kingdom and still permit mercy to claim it's own.  We are only discussing a very specific section of the material I have on these things.  We skipped over the detail aspect of the Fall and the court that was held to determine culpability and role assignment where agency is more clearly referenced as a distinct element of that process.

 

Interesting that you reference “The Law of the Garden”.  Is that different than other law – such as the “Law of the Gospel”?  I have not encountered the “Law of the Garden”.   Do you have a reference, idea or opinion?  Can you tell me what you think the “Law of the Garden” is?

 

The Traveler

 

BTW do not worry about your communications skills – my inabilities will likely trump our discussion anyway.

[brlenox]

1 minute ago, Traveler said:

 

Interesting that you reference “The Law of the Garden”.  Is that different than other law – such as the “Law of the Gospel”?  I have not encountered the “Law of the Garden”.   Do you have a reference, idea or opinion?  Can you tell me what you think the “Law of the Garden” is?

 

The Traveler

 

BTW do not worry about your communications skills – my inabilities will likely trump our discussion anyway.

I mentioned in an earlier post that I reference the law that Adam and Eve transgressed in the Garden of Eden as the Law of the Garden.  Specifically, of course it entails the ideology of be fruitful and multiply and do not partake of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. However, inherent in the simplified rendition of the law is the implied "or".  "Or" if you do it will require that you are exiled and charged with a very severe crime which will define your relationship to God the Father and his Son Jesus Christ hereafter. My last post is beginning to elaborate but it is always better a slow approach to allow discovery over blurting the whole deal out.